#H2HChat Refine your Life and Business Around Mutuality with Kare Anderson

Hey everybody, how are you doing? Welcome back to another Monday H2H Chat. We are live and I am particularly excited about this H2H Chat. I'm going to explain why in just a second, but before I do, I always like to say hello to my lovely co-host who is live from Florida, from Tampa, Florida at an IBM event. How are you doing, Suzy? I'm doing great.

I am doing well. It is hot and humid, but that's okay. I will take it. But yeah, I'm here hanging out at IBM Amplify, and we definitely miss you, BK.

Aww. Well, I miss being there with you guys. This is one of the first. You guys are no doubt kicking it.

We are. We are. Yes, there may or may not be karaoke happening in a few nights. It'll be fun.

May or may not.

May or may not. I cannot, you know, confirm or deny. There's a social media cone of silence over the karaoke. So yeah, I'm good. I am super, so excited for today's chat.

Well, good. Me too. Me too, because we get to actually talk with one of our really close friends, and it's not often that we get a chance to actually pull in a close friend of ours and somebody that I could probably gush on over for the whole interview, but we need to actually interview her, so I won't do that. But Kari really thinks and writes about becoming connected. So if you think about connection and how connection happens, and this is such an interesting topic because it's a topic I'm very, very, very interested in. Connection is something that I wrote about in Shareology as kind of the epiphany of Shareology and why people share. That is in large part due to Kari. Kari was one of the people that I actually interviewed for my book. It goes without saying that she actually is somebody who teaches people how to become quotable. Here we're talking about connection and how to be quotable, such an interesting dialogue that we'll have on that. She is an Emmy Award-winning former NBC and Wall Street Journal reporter. She's now a columnist for Forbes and Huffington Post, and her diverse set of clients includes companies like Salesforce and Novartis and the Skoll Foundation and others that I'm sure you know. She's a founding board member of Annie's Homegrown and sits on several advisory boards including Watermark, Rainforest, TEDxMarin, and Glooped. She's the author of Mutuality Matters: Moving from We to Me. Getting What You Want, Walk Your Talk, and Resolving Conflict Sooner. And Kari also is a TED speaker. I know that because we both were TED speakers at the same event. And so it's without further ado that I say hello to Kari. Kari, how are you doing today? And thank you for joining us.

Hello, Bryan. Mutual admiration. You're the epitome of sharing in helpful ways.

Thank you so much. We have known each other for several years now and it feels like there's a kindred spirit involved in our relationship and friendship. Part of that is due to the mindset that I believe you bring and what you coach on, and that is mutuality. I wondered if you could just take a quick second and describe for us what mutuality is. What— how do you define mutuality? How do you coach it?

It's from the inside out. Once you become more clear about what most matters to you, you project less on other people and you're able to try to see them more clearly. And instead of talking about yourself, you're more likely to ask questions and find sweet spots of mutual interest where you might accomplish something better together or for each other.

I like that, better together or for each other. Give me a situation that describes, that gives us an example of how mutuality works in its best possible situation.

For me, it's when you're working around people who don't act right like me. It's when you actually can get in sync with— I'm a fast thinker, 5 ideas in a meeting. My business partner is a slow thinker. Which means he ponders, he wants to prepare before and after. So together we come up with better ideas because we're willing to do that. So I think having a business partner and a romantic partner, a team— some people are optimistic, I am. That means pessimistic— I'm really for pessimistic people. They get derided, but they are more realistic, a lot of research shows. So I guess I say concretely, if you want to have more lenses on a situation, if you want to Succeed more and savor your life. Be around people whose backgrounds and interests are different than yours. It's where my sweetest adventures— ironically, it's where I'm making the most money, being around people different than me. A wonderful book called Rookie Smarts about how a rookie and an expert together on a topic, and you'll come up with better ideas faster and worse, but you can choose the better. So that's where I think the payoff is.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with that, Kari. I'm just kidding, I'm being a pessimist. So a lot of what you talk about, about mutuality, people working together, people working for the greater good, it sounds good, but it's also very challenging to do that when the rubber meets the road. something actually happens, when you really need to make personalities work together? How do you coach that? How do you coach personalities, people working better together?

Well, I'll start out with 2 people. I think if you can find a sweet spot of mutual interest and do something small together, and also notice if you're giving— I've talked about this with Adam Grant, who wrote Give and Take. I believe if you keep giving helpfully to someone and they don't give back, there are many reasons you shouldn't continue it. You're perpetuating that effect for them to think that's okay. I don't believe in quid pro quo and ebb and flow over time, over a long time. So between two people, notice: are they centered towards having that mutuality too? Are they inspired by it? If not, step back. If you're a team, I think one of the best things you can do— never have a team more than six or seven. Everybody from the Navy SEALs to some of my favorite corporate teams does that. You can't really bond. You can have teams of teams like that wonderful book by McChrystal. But if a team has rules of engagement, not more than three to five, and one of them is we can change the rules of engagement, then we've got guide rails. So when we meet. We're candid. I believe in a connected conversation. There's a thread to the conversation. So have those guide rails you agree on, because I believe it's not— as I said in my TED Talk, it just came to me— it's not the first great successful thing you might do with others. It's the second and third. When you know and trust and understand each other better, you'll think of something collectively that's even greater. So I think it's one of the biggest missed opportunities for most individuals. Even people see themselves as Kind people, they keep reaching out. I get about 90 of these emails a day, so I'm sure you get 200, saying some flattering thing in general and then asking for something.

And

again and again and again. Well, with some people, I know that it comes from a point of shared interest. So it's one of the biggest lessons in life. As a friend of mine said— and I'll make this the end of the answer.

That's fine.

There's room for everybody in our life. Pause. It's just a matter of how close. Concentric circles. There are certain people that have been so mutuality-minded. And then he said, Paul Giffner, he said, and then some of those— and he pointed over the other side of the bay in Sausalito— he said, they belong way over there. And then his wife said, no, no, further, further. So the sweet spot of where people do connect, though, it's one of the most Satisfying things we can have. I've seen you do it a lot.

It's not easy to do it digitally as much as it is when you have body language, when you have eye connection, and when you can read and talk and be involved in the conversation. Now, I remember years ago you were being interviewed by Bryan Solis, and it was probably one of the first things I think that got me to look up, and it was one of the first times I actually had been introduced to you digitally. You were talking about— forgive me if I say this wrong, but I think it was screen face?

Yes, screen face. You're looking down at your phone and you tend to look up and you look disdainful, distracted, or worse. I call it screen face because you're looking at the screen, and it's happening. I'm actually working on a study with it at Stanford.

Really?

Yes. So I don't know if the camera's on me, but I look up and we tend to look slightly pissed, to use a technical term.

Wow. Yeah.

But some people like you and Maya, by the way, and Suzy have what's called a genial face in repose. Less than 7% of us do.

Really?

It's not the face you put on. And the last thing I'll say is I really believe that research that shows— I was raised to work hard. If there's a hard way to do something, I would find that way. But so people who are raised to be competent, we tend to zero in, get things done, want things to go, but in fact show warmth and then competence. And I've watched you so many times, Bryan, where you're warm and people spill out their life stories. They ask questions, and you're listening, and you ask questions. But you look like you care so much. You're really good at taking a compliment, I can tell.

I'm sorry, what was that?

I think you're right though, warmth. But just as Nicholas Epley said in MindWise, confirm. We make projections still and say, when you said that, could you tell me what you mean? I want to make sure I understand. Or could you give me an example of it? So when we're face-to-face, You may be doing something for different reasons than I would. If I've had 3 bad experiences, I might not be as open if you're the 4th experience I'm around the day. We have to know that context needs to be clarified. I just made that up.

Don't worry, I make up things all the time. We're talking about mutuality. We're talking about digital, building digital mutuality and how digital is starting to make things more challenging to connect with others. And then forgive me if this is something that you wanted to talk about or not, we can set this aside and talk about it later, but off camera you were telling us about some work that you were doing with people in prison. And I thought that was fascinating too because they're not digital, I would imagine. They're coming out very not digital, working in this, looking at this digital world. There's such a dichotomy now for what's real. Yes. What is real to people and their mutual interests and building a real friendship? There's a question in here, and I'm getting at it. Real quick before I get to that, when you look at Facebook and you look at the like, and people say, I've I've liked it and then even more specifically, I've friended that person on Facebook. Is there true mutuality in this digital spectrum? Is there true friendships that are being created across the board and how do you define that?

That's a great question. I believe the friending is too easy. I believe Facebook is only going to continue to grow, for example, because it's such a hub. But to like somebody because they did something or to feel like you want to be associated with them because it helps you, like you said earlier, I actually believe there has to be in-person time together or something where we can see each other's faces. Thank God for this experience here and Skype and other ways where we can do it. But I believe it's when people take actions and you notice the actions they take, that's where their priorities are. And you can see that digitally. Some people are just sort of tweeting out other people a lot, hoping they'll get support back. But who takes a thoughtful stand? Who makes it clear they say so-and-so said this and so-and-so said this and this, and I admire them because they've taken time to get to know someone better. And then, you know, they have enough self-comfort and they're prioritizing. They're trying to get to know some people better. And to me, that's a person that I think I want to get to know. better because they're willing to go deeper rather than just wider.

So okay, let's jump back into the workplace a little bit. When you're looking at people that you want to work better with, you know, there's a split time between your ability to do things with them that allows you to get to know them better and the job that you're supposed to perform. I think we're all in this place, right, where we're trying to perform a job, but at the same time you need to get to know them better and build this rapport, build this mutuality. What is that balance? Is there a balance? Is that up to the company? Is it up to the people? Is it both? Sorry, I'm throwing all kinds of questions at you. Feel free to answer just one of them.

Well, I think you're bringing up the important things though, because I've now been speaking in so many companies. One of the saddest things is I see most companies do not enable people to use their best talents together on meaningful projects. That's not profound. But I also think self-organized groups can bubble up. If you're in different departments and you choose to get together and meet regularly and say our agreement is to be candid, confidential, and civil— I just made those up— but when that happens, people really bond and say, well, you have my back. Should I do this? What's the best way? And so I'm really— speaking of IBM as we were earlier, Andy Jankowski was just hired by them and he is brilliant at doing intranets. So going back directly to what you said, what Adam Grant calls assists, the most valuable players in a company are the ones that are the most apt assists. They help at the right time.

Yeah.

And if you have an intranet, you really know Who's the node? Who do people turn to? My God, it's not this title, it's this person or this person. They've got a mutuality mindset, and yet they're still trying to manage their work. So I think you asked some very important questions, and I think companies, even that think they're digitally savvy, still haven't found out a way to notice what people's skills are, to enable them to use them more, and let them self-assign on

I remember I was up in San Francisco. I drove up for a small get-together that you put together. It was, I want to say, somewhere between 7 and 12 people, somewhere in there. You brought people together to meet each other. You had a friend, I think Lori was in town and you wanted to For everybody to get to know her, but also for everybody to get to know each other. That's not why I'm bringing this up. Why I'm bringing this up is because you opened this up with a very interesting dialogue for everyone around the table to go around and do something very interesting that then by the end of it had everyone feeling like they were closer friends than I've probably seen in a long time in any room of any meeting like that. And do you remember that? that meeting, and if so, can you explain the process you told everyone to take to build that mutuality? It was really interesting.

I do remember the time, but I don't remember what I did at that time. It's evolved a little bit, so see if that strikes a chord of memory.

There were several questions that you asked each of us to go around and talk about that gained interest for each other. Does that ring a bell?

It rings a bell a bit, and I'll just say the key word for me in life these days is specificity. And so what I ask people in a small group is to say one thing that they're doing that's really important to them and be brief about it. And then the next person, and if it somehow relates, they say, as so-and-so said, da-da-da-da, and to say what it is. So I call it lean loose. So you listen closely. I said you may want to take notes. This isn't what I did then. That's what I've evolved on.

Okay.

And I said, take notes, listen closely, and then ask questions or suggest a person or a situation or resource that might be helpful. So the lean part is listening closely as you go around and people being pithy. And there's always the lesson of one person who talks on for, you know, 10 minutes. And I decided to let it happen for learning because the others stick to the brevity. But then the loose, so it's back and forth saying, well, there's 2 things I have to say for you, Bryan, and this and that. And then I've done that at conferences now. I give a speech, but I say, can I lead a lean loose group of people of not more than 20 so they can then go off to the lunch or whatever? And I say, now you can start at a more meaningful level.

Wow, I like that, lean loose, but don't fall over. So real quick, I just wanted to make sure that if you're new to H2H Chat and you're listening to H2H Chat right now, please make sure that you are throwing your questions out there because in around 10 minutes, Suzy is going to be taking over to ask those questions that you ask of Kari. She's going to ask them directly to Kari, and so it would be great if we can not only get your questions but make sure that we have can have time to fit them all in, so make sure you get them out now and use the hashtag #H2Hchat on Twitter, which is where the conversation is happening right now. Suzy is standing by. It sounds like there's this whole phone conference center. Suzy is standing by. She's waiting for your call to come in. So now the next thing I want to do talk about is the concept in your book of moving from me to we and how you bring that idea that what you were talking about there. You said people email you. Yes, oh my God, I get so many emails every day of people saying, hey, great job, you're doing such a good job, here's how you can help me.

Yep.

Nothing wants to make you not answer that email more. You talk about this in a much bigger capacity. Tell us a little bit more about that.

I believe the steps briefly for Mutuality Matters is specificity about your core mission in life. It's only when you get specific you can realize it's maybe 5 degrees over, but you get more self-clarity, reduce misunderstanding with others, more credibility, memorability. Once you do that, seek out people with different talents Temperament, but complementarity, and say, I noticed you did this, this, and this. In light of that, I do this. Come explore whether there might be a shared interest. And to me, it's also, as a former journalist, the best way to become a subject matter expert for a journalist. Say, I saw you covered these stories. In light of that, in my email, I might say, here are 7 topics where I may have a valuable perspective in the future, or find someone who does. So they're showing mutuality up front. So I— that's what I guess I suggest to you is look at what most matters to you. Look at your core cadre of tribe and see concentric circles. Who's an unexpected ally? And the Wall Street Journal, when I was in Europe, that's where I started. I was freaked out every day because most of the journalists were older than me, smarter, more experienced, really. So I reached out to the CFO of the newspaper. I said, we have nothing in common, therefore we might be helpful to each other. He says, could you get out now, please? And I said, look, maybe I can help you on messaging when you're meeting with the board. I asked you to leave. I said, okay. And then I was just going out and saying, well, if you want to try, bye. So then he called me about a month later and said, okay, I'd like you to help me on my messaging. And yes, I know you're covering finance and it'd be good to give you some rudimentary background. We've remained friends to this day. Temperament, background, everything. But it's funny how when you are there for someone in a helpful time and way— so I'll just finish this. If you give enough other people what they need, you often get what you need even before you know you need it, and sometimes from people you didn't know could provide it. That's where you're building others' mutuality along with your own and you disproportionately say, that's where I want to give my support. That's the ground on which I stand.

Wow, being specific. What an amazing concept. Getting specific is another thing because you have to understand what you believe in first before you can be specific. Amen. That's not always easy for people. Speaking for myself, understanding exactly what you want to say means you have to understand exactly what you're about. So do you have a process that you go through to arrive to that?

I call it peeling away the layers of the onion. So many people see themselves as multi-talented. We are, but we don't see the core thread. Anybody in branding knows that core thread with the 3 subsets, but you have to have that core. So I think one of the best questions you can ask yourself is, what's the example that resonates? And also, when am I most alive and helpful and appreciated? What is the specific within the specific? For example, I have no sense of direction. I'm somewhat absent-minded, which is cute but not. But I can see systems, and when it's somebody else especially, I can help them get specific. I then realized I needed help myself. Those are the things I'd suggest.

Wow, that's great. It's funny, I learned the onion theory in my communications class in school. Our teacher had us go home and actually take an onion and peel it away and then come back and report on it. We had to do it with another person and peel the onion together and then at each layer of the onion We had to say something new to the other person that was about us. It didn't have to go really personal but just enough. And then we found that the more that we were pulling back the onion, the more that we were learning about each other. But here's the interesting thing, we were crying by the time we got to the center.

Crying with happiness but crying because yes. What a smart teacher, lucky you. I wish I'd had that.

Great class. I love that. I love the onion theory. Such a great concept.

Bryan, can I say one thing?

Yeah, please.

I really believe in serendipity. Frans Johansen wrote The Click Moment. When you get real clear about what most matters to you and the gaps which others can help you with, you pull in people, situations. You're more aware of how you grow your strength in that. And to me, that serendipity is where the adventure of the unexpected treats happen. That's all.

I love serendipity. That's kind of where the best things happen, don't you think?

Oh yes. And they look like unexpected gifts, but you've got your radar out. I call it sidelong glancing. You notice things that you're supposed to notice.

Right, right. I only have just 5 more minutes left with you, which is not enough time, so we're going to have to at some point bring you back on or do another interview of some kind, because this is going way too fast. Again, I just want to make sure everybody out there knows— a couple people have joined since I last said this, but keep your questions coming on #H2HChat. Use that on Twitter, and please Feel free to throw some questions. Susie's going to take that over in 5 minutes to pose those questions back to Kari. So Kari, tell me a little bit more about your work with the prisoners, if you wouldn't mind, and how perhaps you're transitioning and how you coach people to migrate back into and have a great conversation and a great inclusion back into society?

I started with Guantanamo 8 years ago, closing it down. I reached out to people and said, you were the lawyers, contrary to the law, you were not allowed to see the people you represent. The key message I want is I realized the rule of 3, getting 3 extremely different people to take a common stand publicly or behind the scenes, especially with the prop and with an actionable insight, it was transformative. Get them to do one action, if they deeply believe it, they start growing other actions. So my former husband and now good friend is a federal judge who said healthcare in the California prisons and overcrowding was awful. And after I saw Pelican Bay and others, I assembled different groups of 3 around the country and we pursued getting people out of prison after 20, 25 years for minor things. Bereavement leave if you're dying, letting them get out. But now the main thing is coaching people are getting out fairly soon on— I'm not talking about smartphones. I'm talking about how to walk across a crosswalk. Yeah. How to not look freaked, how to not look scary, how to hold a simple conversation, how to present yourself to get a job. There's new legislation coming to not call ex-cons ex-cons. So what happened is I find it's transformative for the people I'm coaching that now go into the jails and prisons as well. Because being so mindful of how much you didn't know, you know, being out in the world. If you've been in 4 walls, you don't. And prisoners, we joke about it, but it's true, you stay against the wall. You're always in surveillance. You're not used to engaging or someone listening to you. So talk about a lesson for me on communication, all the stuff I forgot I knew. Right. That's one of the biggest lessons for people. Working with people has such a different experience. What a profound way to grow yourself. I cry a lot, but I really— it's a mission. And the friendships I formed out of the people doing this with me, it spilled over where we're helpful to each other in other parts of our lives because they're so noble. When someone's so noble doing something, your heart goes out and you just spontaneously want to support them in other things. That effect is just powerful.

You just gave me goosebumps. Thank you so much. I have one last question here before we pass this over to everyone, and that's that there's a dichotomy here between what you just said with the prisoners who are looking at things like how do How to use a crosswalk, the technology of a crosswalk. And then there's the next generation that— I can't remember the stat, it was like 86% of Gen Z knows friends online but have never met them in person. Yes. The gap is so wide, and I'm wondering how you think mutuality will continue forward in the next 5, 10 years, what, what can we do to maintain mutuality in this mindset that's coming?

That's a powerful question, and I've actually been approached by someone who's doing reform in education. I said, well, before I try to offer suggestions, let me just go watch. So I've been watching young people, Gen Z, and the thing is they don't have continuous eye contact as much. They're looking down, looking up, looking down. And so several of them, I said, if you want a big opportunity Know how to communicate with people of different ages, so address their interests first. So I said, let's role-play on a continuous thread to a conversation without looking for reference. So they said, why would I want to do that? Which is a good wake-up call for me. I said, I don't know for sure. I believe you'll get along with a wider variety of people, but until you test it, you don't know. So why don't we learn it and test it? So that's where we're at. Continuous eye contact, conversational thread, And to try it with some people. But I believe all ages should have relationships with people of different generations.

So true. My 11-year-old looks at his screen while he talks to me. And there's a really easy way to get him to look at me. I have this app on my phone that allows me to turn the Wi-Fi off. And you've never seen a kid look at you for

Yeah.

Kari, this has been an awesome half an hour. Again, as I mentioned before, I can talk to you all day, but we've got to take the next half an hour of questions. I'm going to pass this over to Suzy. You're obviously in good hands, and I'll be here to chime in when needed. I'm going to go over and talk to people over on Twitter. I'll be here to follow up at the end.

One last comment, shareable. People who have not read your book yet, I strongly recommend it.

Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. All right, she's all yours.

Awesome. We are getting great, great, great responses like I knew we would. We are trending for about the 3rd month running. So way to go, guys. This is all engagement. This isn't spamming. This isn't anything. This is just you guys talking to each other and that's what boosts our hashtag up. We wouldn't be anywhere without our community. So thank you very much. Please keep your questions coming. This is a great opportunity to ask Kari anything you want. Let's go. Go ahead though and get started. I think I have a few great questions to begin the conversation. First of all, we have a really great group that follows our chat each week, Kori, that I think you'd really like. They're called Walk Off, and it's a global movement of athletes that are pressing, that are working towards increased diversity in sports. And so what they're curious about, they wanted you to speak about the value of diversity when we're talking about mutuality and bringing that into the conversation and how, what your thoughts are on that.

Well, I'll suggest the Warriors team, one of the things they talked about is how do you train people when they first came on, we're training radically different. And it was an encouragement of the coach to say learn from each other Training, resting, food. There's a marvelous book written about pro athletes by a coach called Help the Helper, and his core thing was when you have a variety of people, how do you help the helper on the court? I highly recommend it. It came out 3 years ago. So the goal is the more diverse we are, the more we get to learn from each other, and the more aggravated we might be at first because that person doesn't do it right like I do. So we have to kid about it and then listen.

Yeah, that's one of the things that they were tweeting in as well. I think that's so important. Thank you. So I have a question here from Ralph. Ralph, thank you so much for tuning in this week. It's always awesome to see you on our stream. He says, in your opinion, what platform or combination of platforms are most conducive to mutuality?

The platform that hasn't yet been made that I think is a really good online community that's designed so that people are pithy, have tagged questions and answers around a core topic, whether it's mutuality, whether it's pro sports, but online you can ask and answer. And one of the online communities that I see in the future is contest-based, e-coupon-based, And tip-based, so people can vote for their top 10 each time. Other than that, anything where you see a face, like we're doing now, from simple Skype to whatever, but it allows engagement back and forth. I've been real interested in how engagement can happen where there's groups and there's individuals, and there can be a wide open discussion. So I'm really curious to watch How the tech goes where it can be multi-sided in the interactions, that visual and you can see the face.

So is this something— I was talking to a group of people here at Amplify, obviously lots of tech futurists and things, and they were talking about using VR plus 360-degree video. So you could actually insert yourself in the experience and be walking around and interacting. Would that increase mutuality, or are we looking there in some sort of pseudo-reality? What are your thoughts there?

I think we won't know until we've done it, because there's going to be a newness about it, and there's a desire to be seen. So I think what you're going to see quite quickly is how people use that 360 view. I've been talking to people there about it. It's exciting.

Yeah.

Who engages, who talks at, who responds. So in one way you can say, what a Rorschach test. It's sort of like the current presidential campaign. We learn a lot about each other's hot buttons, civility, insights. So I'm looking forward to anything where people from other parts of the world have a chance to engage and find people that are helpful to them, where the costs go down. And the ideas exchange go up. So yeah, I think we're just on the verge of it, but we're going to have to learn and teach each other etiquette that works.

Yes.

And one of them is having a thread to the conversation. If someone says something, don't ping-pong it. Respond exactly to what they say. I agree, I disagree, I don't understand, here's a suggestion. So as we develop those, we're going to have meaningful connections and notice who isn't ready to have that. Thanks, Suzy, that was a long answer.

No, I love it, I love it. I think that it's so fascinating and I do, I completely agree in terms of etiquette. So I have a question here from Paul Bradley Smith who religiously attends H2H Chat. Thank you so much, Paul.

I adore Paul Bradley Scott.

Love him so much. So he's responding to our conversation here about diversity. And he says, when building teams, how would you start building a diverse team, specifically those first steps? And I know this is something that we talk about a lot, right? Well, we'd like to hire more people, but they just didn't apply, right? This type of— how do you go about navigating that? What does it look like?

I think the first thing is get real specific about the goal of the team. Is it an ongoing team, or is it a project team? Too often, organizations and individuals don't. And one goal may be to get specific, and it may shift. And then, in light of that, what is— what does it look like to succeed? Third, what are the talents that are needed? Fourth, when you first meet, whoever is the ostensible lead goes around and says, I'm going to tell each of you specifically why each of you is here. Correct me if you want, but I want you to all know that. Mm-hmm. So there are no extra members, and unless you think of a task or an expertise that I haven't seen. And now let's next have rules of engagement, as I talked about. That starts people on a positive footing. They may not all know each other, but they know, first of all, not their background, but their pertinent talent they bring to the task. And I think that's helpful. You can go off and have a beer or a glass of wine or whatever you want, To get to know each other in other parts of your life, but to know why you're sitting with these people, what the main goal is, what your rules of engagement are, and then say, well, let's talk about some benchmarks. What are some steps that we should take early? So from the very beginning, that ostensible leader is demonstrating, I want your specific feedback— specific, specific, specific— on the steps we take that move us forward, now and at each step.

So it sounds like leadership— I'm hearing a consistent strain here where it sounds like leadership is very important with mutuality. How does that work? Because I have to say, when I think of mutuality, I almost think more in terms of horizontal relationship. When you add leadership, you almost have more of a vertical relationship. How does this get navigated?

People talk about leadership a lot, and that certainly wasn't my intent. there's someone who's the ostensible leader of each team, and they may say we're going to trade off or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

But it's how they want the group to work together. That's a mutuality mindset. Some people will say it, but they don't mean it. They just haven't got that consciousness yet. Others do. But for example, one of— this is controversial perhaps, but I believe one of the rules has got to be that if someone doesn't follow the rules of engagement and doesn't meet the agreements they made without telling people why they can't, you can kick them off the team. Right. And both in a company, that should be possible, and in a structure— accountability. And I've been in several teams now where I've been hired to work with them where it really surprised me who was the one who stood up and said, you didn't make agreements. It's the 3rd time. I believe you should no longer be on this team. And several times it's been someone who's just literally chattering or is an introvert, but they stood up for the team. And so it's not an easy moment, but it's taking responsibility. So I've learned a lot as I espouse these things and watching who and how they evolved to make that teamwork. The team value is so precious to them.

That is That's fascinating. I have a question here from Antonio Santos. Antonio, great to see you being able to join us this week. He says, in a neurodiverse world, how can you help people come out and be themselves when facing others?

The only way you can help them bring their whole self to work is my friend Christy Smith said Is to prove that you've already done it with others. Yeah. And it's how you respond when they say things. It's the way you ask questions and let people go as deep as they want, and they may not want to reveal as much. I think when people feel accepted and trusted and appreciated, they step forward. And for us not to push people to do it at a speed that's not their comfort, um, We all have ways we may inadvertently push people back or try to pull them forward. And learning a rhythm that's a common rhythm in any group, I think, is a wondrous dance. Because a group does— it's just like a group has a culture of itself. I have been in 2 mastermind groups, one about public speaking and one with journalists. And the way you get to know each other sort of Talking shorthand. It's been so great. I think it's the most precious friendship thing in my life beyond my family. But we had to learn each other's rhythms, and we keep learning more about each other that startles us over the years.

Wow. So I have a question here from Stacy Di Polo. Stacy, thank you for joining us. She says, how can we become— how do you balance becoming more resonant? She uses tribe. I think we can also say community group. Becoming more resonant with your tribe while staying true to your personal passions. So how do you go from the me to we without losing the me?

If you're in a tribe that doesn't at least in part serve your passion, you're in the wrong tribe anyway. Go away. I think one of the reasons that tribes thrive is they have a strong set of shared values. That doesn't mean everything is agreed upon, or shared interests, or shared mission. There's a book called The Big Sort and another one called Going to Extremes, and they are prescient. They came out about 8 years ago. They said we hang out with people who act like us and believe like us. The more we do that, the more rigid and reactionary we get. Then there was Filter Bubble. So the issue is we hang out with people who are comfortable. We're all saying things we agree on. But to be in a group where we share a passion about a goal or one thing but not everything, and we stay civil and we ask civilly and respond candid, concrete conversation.

I love that. So we have— so actually, Really playing into that, I have a question from Jessica Roberts. Jessica, always great. I love your tweets about H2H chat. I'm so glad that you could join us live today. She says, what are your personal rules of engagement balancing your personal and professional life? Do you find many crossovers?

I believe that a holistic life is the best. and the core values I have about supporting people who have a mutuality mindset, clarity and specificity, it means that those are traits that all my close friends have. Mm-hmm. They have a purposeful life. And it's always interesting when you ask a question of someone in your, quote, personal life, saying this is going on in my professional life. When I was a journalist, I covered culture, politics, And so I'd ask someone who was not interested in either of those topics, I said, I'm covering it this way, what thing do you think would resonate? And I'd often get really bad ideas or great ideas, but never in between. So I think when we, when we are multifaceted with the people in our life, we get a chance to surprise ourselves about what we know and what we don't know. And who knows it?

Yeah, yeah. I find that with, you know, I think that's one really interesting thing with social media, right, is you can crowdsource information, right, and advice. And there are people who do have this knowledge from all sorts of different aspects, and suddenly you're bringing them in and you're making these connections. And there's a community there that you would have never thought actually existed, and suddenly it's there. I just love it. It's one thing that attracted me to the field in the first place. It seems really interesting.

I just

want

to say the law of unintended consequences is increasingly becoming the norm, not the exception in our connected world. So the temptation to have a wide following we all feel, but to just notice who is most helpful, most valuable with our time and making sure you proactively pay attention back. There is that choice among the many to respond specifically and be supportive.

Yes, yes, absolutely agree. So I have a question here from David Pepper. Dave, I'm so glad that you could join us today. I know it's been a little while. He says, how do you avoid groupthink in the tribe?

I think that's a great point, resonant with what we've been talking about. As long as the group's rules of engagement are that they want to be candid, concrete questions, and the group is diverse, it's really hard to have groupthink. The one time you want groupthink is when you've agreed on something, and unless there's something materially new, the group is making progress. It's not just focused on their previous victories. They're saying, let's move forward. What's the next step to build on it? I think groupthink is where most meetings happen. I think it's rare So

what though, isn't there— I would just playing the other side, right?

Sure.

Isn't there a danger of beginning to only see one side of an issue, right? I think that's always the concern with groupthink is that maybe when you begin the conversation, you're all representing that diversity, right, in your own specific specific opinions, but then as you get into that place where you're connecting in this awesome place, then your beliefs and ideas maybe become more similar and it's harder to integrate that other information. What do you think? How can we prevent that?

I'm not for groupthink and I've rarely seen that problem you're concerned with happen. In fact, people are so diverse, the hardest part is to have a Thread to a conversation, have a group focus, and I would call it reverse engineering, saying, what is our top goal now? And going around, I think it's this, this, because they're making progress. We're too multifaceted. So group thinking can happen most likely out of loyalty to the group over time, and that's pretty cool. Like if there's someone wants to bring the group up or someone is attacking it unfairly. But if you are trying to evolve on a path towards progress or if you are trying to be growing together to learn, there are always going to be so many variables. It's if you have rigid rules like some organizations. A church can be great or not. A company can be great or not if they are not flexible in how they evolve their rules and how they bring in new people.

Right, right, right. Then it can facilitate a negative culture and you have a whole other aspect. Absolutely. I have a question here from our friends at Paid Compliment who try to join us when they can from Australia. Welcome guys, your questions always rock. So what they say is, they say building mutuality seems like a good idea. seems to need a high level of consciousness and engagement skills. How do you lift others up to that?

I think you do it by a couple of ways. Firsthand, you demonstrate it. I call it you, me, us. Address their interests first in light of what you know. Ask for confirmation. Then say, do you think you want to explore this shared interest? I don't think it's easy, but it becomes a lot easier over time. And it's amazing when people feel heard and see it in action, they're more likely to try to reach out for mutuality. And it's like the idea of rather than asking for a bigger piece of the pie, let's make the pie bigger so there's bigger pieces for us all. So that questioner is absolutely right. It takes a consciousness. But I think when you have a few experiences when you realize, wow, I never thought that this could be so much fun together or this would be that helpful. I want more of this stuff. I want more of that experience.

That's great. I have a question here from Nancy in New York. Thank you, Nancy. Always fun to have you join. She wants to know if you Do you believe in team charters, written agreements for how a team will function, or is that something that's too formal?

Well, I think a team charter is akin to rules of engagement, so I believe in it, especially if they're offered some specific ideas of what they are, like the one I've been mentioning, the thread to a conversation. Be on time to the meeting, make and keep agreements, kick a person off who doesn't abide by it. So I think having a charter Gives guide rails. I call it bounded and unbounded teamwork. So we've got some boundaries, but we've got a chance to flow, including I want to propose a new rule of engagement. So I'm really for them. I think it's one of the biggest reasons that teams crash. They didn't have them up front. They don't know why each person is on the team. They don't have rules of engagement. They don't have early progress.

So how would you— what if we want to When you create rules of engagement, I'm assuming you don't want them too long, right? You don't want a whole treatise on the rules of engagement. What would be a good balance between too specific and maybe too broad?

So it's 2 questions there, specificity and broadness and how many. Well, I believe if it's not specific, it doesn't work because you don't know what they mean. In other words, being on time to our meetings unless there's a crisis. Never having a meeting that lasts more than 30 minutes. These are ones that other people have had. Responding exactly to what you just heard before you move on to something else that relates to it. Being willing to say, "I disagree," and this is why, and ask to having those conversations in the meeting with others' presence rather than afterwards say, "Did you like what they said?" I didn't either. Da da da. So those are things I've seen firsthand where people become trusting of the group process and find it productive, and often there's camaraderie there.

I like that. So I have a question here from Connie, and she's curious how MBTI Myers-Briggs personality testing would impact mutuality. I know there's a whole discussion about using the personality testing for teams, for coaching, all these different things. What are your thoughts?

This will be controversial, but I side with the researchers who say the Big 5 and most of those, there's such a broad continuum. So rather than putting people in a category, As well, it's context and situational. So we can hear about them, but I don't find them that helpful. It's just like, Susie, you know that certain people and situations bring out a certain part of you and another part. So rather than our spending time on that, I think most people want to feel productive and meaningful in a group where it is productive. Let's say, so if we get real clear about our goal, we get clear about who's there and why, Then we observe and we are focusing on the action we want to have happen. We tend to bring out our better side rather than our worst side. That may be a side that hasn't appeared much in other situations, but we love having it happen there. It sort of sets a ground on which we can operate.

I

know many of you agree with me.

Yeah, no, no. I think it completely makes sense. That completely makes sense. So one thing though I would wonder is I think a lot of times these personality tests get used because when we're dealing with, you know, say HR has thousands of employees they're trying to deal with, right, so they're trying to separate them into some sort of creating some sort of personalized experience or some sort of identification. Maybe they're understaffed. You know, engage in that individual conversation. I know you advise companies, you deal with these limitations. How does that work? When you're dealing with the numbers game, how can you embrace mutuality?

I don't believe in those tests at all. I don't think it helps find the right people. I believe the depth of passion and experience that people have for the work they want to do, passion and experience, are what count. I believe most interviews are largely irrelevant. That's because people project so much, and it's what order did I see you in? Oh, you're the 7th person. So I'll just say one line that stuck with me, and I'm so sorry because they turned off the phone.

Don't worry.

John Chisholm said, if I was looking for people to hire, he said, it's not how much they've accomplished, but how far they've come to accomplish it. When I meet people and I see what they've done with where they started and their passion and clarity and focus and achievement, that's someone I'd hire in a heartbeat. And that's what I've been coaching people at companies. So when you ask them, what's something you've done that you're proud of? And how did it happen? And how clear they are about what they faced and what they did and candid. That's self-clarity. That's a reflective person. So those are some of the things I'd look at. Radically different.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But also seeing the whole person, right? And I think that's so important. So last question. We have, you know, I know our community is just so embracing and loving what you're talking about here today, right? And then all of us then have to jump back into our jobs. So if we want to move into practicing mutuality, what would be a basic first step to try and integrate that spirit and attitude into our lives?

It's the you, me, us. It's looking at someone and have some question to ask that's about them rather than talking about you.

Hmm.

Even if you just met someone, you've seen them in some context, and say, it seems that you've been working on this a lot. Can you tell me more about it? Listen closely. Say, well, I noticed we have a shared interest maybe here. Just practicing that in a comfortable way in more situations. And ironically, Turn around to people you've known for a long time. You know, you may be married to them. You say, you've been working on this for a decade, or I noticed that you've been turning back to this several times. Tell me where that interest comes from. How does it resonate? What are you doing about it now that most matters to you? And as you listen, inevitably there's somewhere along that path where you say our interests coincide. And say, this is why I think they coincide, but am I on track? Is that true? And seek confirmation. That's the best start. It's not that hard actually. It's just sort of rare.

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I'm at this conference and I now have a personal challenge to try and put that into practice, and I challenge everyone in our community as well to do that as well. And even use the hashtag. Tweet out. Let us know interesting things that you found about other people that you didn't know before. Oh,

I love that, Suzie.

Yeah, please do that using the #h2hchat hashtag. So thank you so much, Kari. There was so much amazing conversation. I know you're going to love it when you check out the hashtag. Thank you so much for being our guest. Personally, it's been fabulous and I know our community is And thanks for

your warmth.

Oh well, I love it, love it. It's very easy to be warm with you as the guest. So thank you.

And also we're in very warm Florida.

There you go. Well, I am feeling— in the Twitter stream we had a bit of back and forth about what's more humid, New York in the summer or Florida. And I'm sorry guys, I still say it's Florida.

Alright, well, thank you guys so much. Thank you. Suzy, as always, great questions and great conversation. And Kari, this hour just flew right by, so thank you so much for all the great information and for sharing your time and your thoughts with everyone. You'll see in your Twitter feed when you have a chance, maybe over the next few days, that there are more questions and more things out there that you may have— we may have not been able to get to. If you find time to address them, great, and if not, no worries. We understand how busy you are. The only other thing that I'll say is that for everyone out there who's looking to find out who we have coming up next week, it is Tim Staples, the co-founder of Shareability. Wow, it is all about sharing. There's a theme here going on. Right. Tim and his company do some really fascinating things with Snapchat. So the description is, long gone are the days of simply posting content and hoping, hoping it goes viral. Once you've mastered the channels you've grown to love, you'll have to learn a whole new set of skills for Snapchat. So how do you do that with over 200 million users every month coming and watching 10 million videos per day?

Wow.

How do you break through that noise? That's what we're going to be talking about on Monday, so definitely make sure that you show up for that. Thank you guys once again. Kari, cheers, my friend. And to everybody out there who joined us this week, thank you so much. We'll see you again next week on Monday at noon Pacific Standard Time, whatever time that is to you, the rest of the world. Thank you so much, and we'll see you again soon. Cheers.

Thank you.

Take care, everyone.