Anxiety caused by teenage sex

Hi there, and I am really delighted to be chatting today with Larissa Astrigre, who I actually came across at a PSA event last month. Larissa was doing a short talk about talking to teenagers about sex and the whole issue of talking about sex. And my kind of radar went— This is something not only as a parent, but I know working with a lot of teenagers that there is a lot of anxiety both from teenagers and dealing with maturing and the whole issue of sex, talking to their parents about it, and also the other way around of parents addressing some of their concerns around things like sexting, pornography, the wider availability and access to this whole area of sexual relationships, sexual activity. So who better than to talk to someone who lives in this world and deals with this as her profession? So Larissa, please give us a little bit of an intro of how have you got to doing this work and what's your passion behind it?

Thank you very much, Caroline, for having me on, uh, your show, and Yes, it is the subject that is so— I'm so passionate about because it's where I have been so disempowered. And I've learned so many different aspects of disempowerment around this subject. I was raped when I was 13 in a lad culture style, um, in a way that was thought of as being cool and being acceptable behavior, but it wasn't. And how that impacted my life in such a detrimental way— it destroyed me. It took me down a very, very negative path. I took on beliefs around men, around, um, self— self-thoughts of self-hatred and abuse that just led me into more toxic relationships, drug abuse. alcohol abuse, where I was by the age of 22, I was a heroin addict. So in my healing journey, which has been 23 years, I've had to address sexual energy, sexual abuse, sexual, uh, shaming, sexual trauma in all sorts of ways. I haven't— it wasn't just that first experience. I have had many because after you have one, something changes in you. And it, and it sets you off on a different path. So this is why I want to get into the prevention and get young people to really, really understand the deep mental and emotional impacts that this has on people, not just for the victims but for perpetrators too.

Okay, and thank you so much for, you know, for expressing that, that vulnerability. And I think it's, um, a sad reality that So many women, um, are, are victims. Um, I don't like to use that word, but I think it's absolutely an appropriate word to use in this context. Do you have any statistics or awareness of just what the reality is out there of women that are being, um, exposed to these sort of attacks?

I know in the UK alone there are 473,000 sexual assaults a year.

Wow.

And so I think rapes are a little bit lower. I did have all the stats, I can't remember them exactly, otherwise I would say them now. But these are the stats as well, we must remember, Caroline, that are reported.

Absolutely.

A lot of these are not reported because nothing ever happens and the victim is often shamed So it's, it's another trauma that the person has to go through to report it. So the figures, I don't think we'd ever get them right.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's again a very valid point, that stats are very, um, very unrepresentative of the reality that's out there. And I think that brings us really nicely to, um, my interest in talking to you, because I work with a lot of teenagers who are anxious, um, a lot of the teenage anxiety is the fear of fitting in. What do you have to do to be part of this really important crowd? So for the girls to, to be seen as being attractive and one of the in girls. But similarly, I think there's a huge pressure on teenage boys as well to be the, you know, dare I use it, the stud. The person that, that's, you know, the grown-up. So that's one side of the coin. And then there's the other side as parents being very aware, I've got a 19-year-old daughter, an 18-year-old son. How do I help them in making sure that they're not overexposed to things? So let's, let's talk about the teenagers first. What's, what's your perception of the real risks that are out there at the moment that's making our teenagers vulnerable And therefore anxious?

Well, like you said, Caroline, it's the main one is peer pressure. And we all do want to fit in. We all desperately want to fit in. And if you feel like a lot of people in your crowd have already done something or been sexually active, then it makes you feel like you're the odd one out. You're— and actually What happened to me was I was in a truth circle when I was 13, and every single girl in that truth circle told me they'd lost their virginity, and I was the only one that hadn't. And that actually was the catalyst that put me in that very vulnerable position at the party. Um, and I was raped in a downstairs toilet at a party, and after that I found out that every single one of those girls had lied. And whether they did it to see if I would find out what it was like, or, um, whether they were just doing it because they just wanted to be cool.

Mhm.

But one of the things that I really bring in when I open with a group at a college or a school is about Honesty. Honesty is really, really important. Honesty with yourself is even more important than being honest with anybody else. But honesty with everybody else is, is respect. You know, respect to me, this is— these are the other things that I bring in at college. The first thing is honesty. The second thing is respect. And respect is just treating somebody the the way that you want to be treated. Then it's non-judgment. Non-judgment is really knowing that everybody has reasons for doing various things, so we have to be very mindful of not having any sort of judgment around people's behaviors.

Uh-huh.

The next one is compassion. And compassion is very similar to non-judgment. It's about understanding that there's a reason why somebody has a certain behavior, but it's a little bit— it's, it's a little bit like forgiveness. Um, it's a— but it's a higher energy than forgiveness. So forgiveness is when somebody does something wrong to us, Instead of saying, that's what, what you did to me was wrong, it's saying, what you've done to me was awful, but I'm not letting you keep me in the pain. I'm not gonna hold the pain inside of me that you've put onto me. I'm not making— I don't think I'm making sense here, Caroline. I've gone off onto something.

I'm sorry. That's okay.

Yeah, I don't know what happened there. Just sort of, ooh. But yeah, yeah, so compassion is about just having a loving understanding for everybody and being aware that certain people behave in certain ways because of, because of All sorts of things. So compassion, um, and those things— compassion, boundary, um, honesty. I've just completely lost my, my, myself there.

That's all right, don't worry. Let's jump to, let's jump to something else and we can come back to those points. It's a perception of mine, Nerissa, that, um, the access to, uh, things such as pornography is exacerbating the, um, the need for some of these teenagers to think, that's what I have to do to be grown up, to be one of the gang. Do you think accessibility to— you know, pornography has been there a long time. I remember I've got 2 big brothers So as a fairly young teenager looking for something in my brother's bedroom and coming across a load of magazines. So pornography has always been there, but I believe the accessibility now is so much different. Do you think that this is a factor in a lot of the teenage anxiety around sexuality, and how can parents help address that team— that anxiety with their teenagers?

Well, it ultimately just comes down to communication, right?

Right.

And that is my biggest mission, is to change the way that we communicate around sexuality. A lot of people have got a lot of fear and shame around, around sexuality and around sex, and that's coming through society's beliefs, it's coming through religion in various different ways. It's kind of like put into us that It's okay to have banter and inappropriate humor around sexuality, but it's not okay to have just a clear and honest conversation about it. And so often, you know, when I say that I'm a positive sex education speaker, it makes people feel very uncomfortable because it is such a subject that is shrouded in fear and shame. But the reality is, it is, it is the most beautiful God-given pleasure. that is that powerful. It created every single one of us, and we need to reframe it in a new energy where we feel empowered about talking about it, uh, to our children and to everybody else, so it loses its power, its negative power.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so, you know, pornography is, is, I'd say, 95% abuse. And young people see it, they think that it's normal, they think this is the way that sex should be. It's very disconnected sexual, um, experience. There's no real heart connection. A lot of the actresses have to use drugs or numbing creams, uh, to enjoy some of the things that are done there. They get horrific injuries, fissures, anal fissures, and all sorts of things. They get paid a lot more for the more derogatory experiences that they have to do. And what kind of happens to a lot of the actresses is they lose themselves.

Yeah.

They completely Disconnect from who they are.

Do you think it would be appropriate for a parent to sit down with their teenagers and perhaps watch some of this stuff within appropriate level and have that level of conversation? Do you think that's an acceptable thing to do?

I think it really depends on each individual and what they really, really feel comfortable doing. I remember, um, a few years ago watching a Channel 4 program about some mothers that wanted to set up a pornography video that was suitable for their children. And they actually, as a group, sat and watched quite a lot of porn to see what was out there and what their children were actually seeing. And they were—

Right.

You know, the women were crying. It was horrendous. And they were like, wow, if I thought that I had to perform in that way, you know, as a virgin, if that's what I— I would be terrified. And, um, so they made a very, you know, loving and honoring kind of pornography film in the end, if I remember. It was a very long time ago. Um, but there are different types of pornography that you can get out there, and I think there are some people that are trying to aim it at more loving, connective stuff. But it is, it is the communication. It is the, you know, if you don't talk to your children about this, they're left in the dark. They're left guessing. They're left exploring this huge subject, which is so You know, it can be so empowering to them, yet also can be so destructive. And if you don't take the power into your own hands as a parent to be able to have those comfortable and easy conversations with them, you're— I feel you're letting them down in a big, big area of their life.

I can imagine that for, um, for a lot of people. I'm even thinking myself, would I want to sit and watch any porn with, with my teenagers who are, you know, quite mature teenagers? And I'm thinking, yes, that would, that would actually be quite difficult. But we can have conversations, as you say, and I have spoken a lot with my teenagers and also a lot with the teenage clients that I work with, talking about the difference between sex and making love.

Yeah.

And really making a differentiation. Sex is something very physical, um, and that doesn't always make it a bad thing.

No, because sex can be done with love. Even though it's not making love. I know that sounds crazy, but you can have a conscious one-night stand as long as both people know what's going to happen. They're aware that it's a one-night stand. They're aware that it's going to be done in a loving and honoring and respectful way.

Mm-hmm.

And there's no— none of this game playing or question marks or You know, that's what I'm saying. Honesty is the most important thing.

Yeah.

Who likes being lied to or manipulated?

True. So the way I try and get across is, is sex is very physical, which is okay, whereas making love is where emotions become involved. And this helps to bridge the gap, I believe, with teenagers, is if you are having sex because you are wanting to be liked or you're wanting to be valued or you're wanting to fit in, then you're bringing in emotion. Therefore, it's not just sex.

Yeah.

And then as soon as you bring in your emotion, you are making yourself very vulnerable. Because typically, again, I'm being very biased, I'm aware of this, in terms of girls, they are bringing in the emotion, whereas boys are just physical. Therefore, you are making yourself very exposed Yeah. Do you think that's a good way to portray the diseases?

Yeah, definitely. That's absolutely spot on, Caroline. Absolutely. And yeah, I probably use a stronger word when I use the animalistic kind of side. But, you know, we— people say, oh, we're animals, but we're not. We're, we're much more conscious beings. We, you know, we're not animals. you know, we're not just physical, we are mental. We have mental and emotional and spiritual beings. So all of this needs to be taken into consideration when we engage in a sexual, you know, experience, because it affects all of those levels in us. And it— if it's done in a really positive way, it actually enhances all of those Absolutely.

Yeah.

And if it's done in a negative way, it's one of the most disempowering things. Yeah. And destructive.

In the work that, that I do, um, people often say, oh, you know, my, my child is, is 12, can you work with them? And my response is always, I'm less interested in the physical age and more interested in their emotional age. So I've had, you know, 9-year-olds that are more than competent of doing some of the work that I do, 15-year-olds that can't because their emotional maturity is vastly different. What benchmarks do you use in terms of talking to children? Would you say, well, they need to be a certain age? Do they need to be a certain level of emotional maturity to start having these discussions with them?

In year 6, they really started to be taught in schools, um, with sexuality, and it's all a bit of a laughing and joking matter.

It's very uncomfortable.

It's very like they're making jokes and laughing, and that is— this is one of the most important things that I say this isn't a laughing or joking matter. It is one of the most serious subjects that you'll ever learn. If you get your maths, your science, your English wrong, doesn't matter. You can retake it. You can restudy it. If you get this subject wrong, it could destroy your life or somebody else's life for many, many years to come. You know, the effects of sexual abuse and sexual trauma, and, you know, unless they're addressed, that can take years to heal. Years, you know. So it's the way that it's addressed and the way that it's talked about, and it can be done appropriately at Year 6.

Yeah.

I mean, when I— I mean, my son is 8, and it's all a giggly matter around, you know, his penis and vagina and stuff like that. And I say to him, I talk to him, and I just say, these are the most important parts of your body that need to be very, very respected and honored in yourself and in somebody else, and they are not a joking matter. And it's not something I feel you should make jokes about or be engaging in that. And I, I encourage that behavior to not happen. Um, but it is, it's always thought of as a joking matter, and it's not a joking matter.

Okay, we're speaking a lot about communication and how really that's at the, the seat of not resolving, but supporting our teenagers through this, this journey of becoming sexually and emotionally mature people. As parents, would you suggest that both mum and dad sit down with teenagers and talk together? Is it a kind of one talks about one thing, or, you know, mums talk to their girls, dads talk to their boys? How do you recommend is the best way as parents to to start opening the doors to communication to their teenagers in the best way?

The first thing I would say is, are the parents able to communicate with each other comfortably around sexuality? That's the most important thing. They need to start feeling comfortable about it. They need to have those difficult conversations. I don't know whether you've ever experienced something and you've thought, oh God, I can't have this conversation, it's really hard, it's really hard, and Then when you've had it, you go, oh, that was okay, that was all right, what was I worried about? And it was just fear that had got in the way.

Yes.

And fear, as we all know, Caroline, it's false expectations. It's false expectations appearing real. And it's just about having these perceived fearful conversations and bringing much more consciousness and openness into sexuality. Um, a lot of parents that I've spoken to are terrified. They can't have those conversations. A lot of, um, adults that I've worked with, they, they can't say, I don't like this, or I don't want this, because they're frightened to reject the other person. You know, we always want to be people pleasers, and we do that at our own detriment. And that's what I talk to the young people about, is about you're the most important person. So it's really, first of all, getting the parents just to feel comfortable talking about sexuality before they even engage with talking to their child about it, because— We've all probably heard of imprinting. If you're feeling shame and fear around sexuality and then you talk to somebody about it, you're going to imprint them with that shame and fear if you've got that. So it's about dropping that shame and fear off around yourself, and the only way you drop that is by By letting it go, by going past the fears.

Yeah, and I can really relate to that, Larissa. I grew up, um, my mum, bless her, loved her to death, but she was very, uh, Victorian in her upbringing. So things about the body wasn't discussed. That was kind of behind closed doors. So everything around periods I learned from the school playground. To the point that when my first period came, I was, you know, I cried in my bedroom because I didn't know how to go and tell my mum that it had started. So I used that experience with my daughter. I think I never want her to go through that. And yes, hands up, it was quite uncomfortable conversations because I'd never learned to speak on those terms. But my motivation to do so was to prevent my daughter from having that same experience. And it was a lovely mummy moment for me when my daughter typically started her periods, went away on guide camp, came home. I wasn't— happened to be home, and she said to her father, Daddy, you know, what do I need to do? Do I need to change my pad now? So, and that was when, when my husband sort of said, oh, you know, I've had this conversation with, with my, you know, with, with Nadia. Um, I hope I've given her the right information, but I love the fact that she was so unembarrassed about what was a natural bodily function that she was quite happy to even go and speak to her dad about it. And he, bless him, was absolutely wonderful and well said, I don't know, darling, but let me give you a big hug because you're a woman now, and isn't that wonderful? And turned it into a really positive experience. And I think it's now, again, that for me was like, I've done something right. But perhaps that's a motivation for many of us With the sex, and like, rather than, um, yes, it's difficult, but I want my child, my teenagers, to have this feeling that sex is a wonderful thing in the right context with the right person.

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head, Caroline. You, you're coming from love and you speak of it with the right energy, and then they will be empowered. Look how wonderful she experienced her first menstruation and how empowered, you know, and that's how you want them to have their first sexual experience as well. As empowered, not shameful, not in that murky energy where they can't express their wants and needs or feel uncomfortable around it in any way. Because it is the most— these are natural, beautiful experiences.

Absolutely. One of the questions that comes up quite often in the Facebook group that I run, Teen Stress 101, is the discussion about when do you allow your child to have a boyfriend or girlfriend Stay over? And I find that a really difficult one to answer because I don't think there is a benchmark of it needs to be, you know, 16, 18, whatever it may be. It is a very personal decision. My personal route was if they are sexually active, I would rather them be in a safe space with adults around that are looking after them than basically having a quickie in the, in the recreation ground or in a bus stop or somewhere where they are unsafe. What would be your positioning on that?

Exactly that, Caroline. Anything we repress becomes dysfunctional. Anything. And because sexuality has been repressed so much, it has become severely dysfunctional in so many different areas. And yeah, you don't want them out doing things in parks or doing things in uncomfortable places. And I think if you have the deep conversations, it strengthens your relationship with them. They feel much more comfortable and confident with you, and they might not decide to have a sexual relationship till a lot later because of those conversations. Whereas if they don't know, um, and they're not empowered around their sexuality, they might get them— put themselves into very vulnerable situations in a, in a park where there's things at, you know, at a party, at different things like this. So, you know, taking the time and having those difficult conversations could change their reality vastly around sexuality. And I think each parent has a different relationship with their child, and, you know, you, you, you could be like, I'm quite happy for your partner to stay over, I'm not— I don't really want you to have sexual experience in my house until you're this age, or, or whatever. You've still got to have your personal boundaries as a parent.

Mhm.

Um, but the more conscious and difficult conversations that you have with your child, the more of a relationship you'll build, the more respect you'll build, and they will respect your boundaries as you respect theirs.

When I— at the risk of offending some people, my personal belief is the role of the parent is to keep your child safe.

Yeah.

Um, and that certainly is, is, is my epitome. My role as a parent, even as they get older, is still to keep my children safe. And by having these difficult conversations and perhaps going into places that you don't really want to go, if that's going to keep them safe, that is my motivation to become uncomfortable.

Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely. The, the more open you can be with them, the more, you know, anything, like we've said, anything that you keep in the dark stays in the dark and it grows and it becomes murky and not good. All we have to do is bring these things into the light and they're no longer dark and they're no longer, they've no longer got any negative power around them because you've You know, I've given a couple of talks to Ladies' Circle, um, on what's wrong with sex, and I go into all the different areas of what is wrong with sex, like pornography, how it's portrayed just on mainstream television, you know, with shows like Love Island and stuff like that.

Yeah.

I mean, cheating and, um, going behind people's backs is normalized, which is just not okay. Even normal sex scenes on television, I think, are not great, you know. Probably in my whole life, I've maybe watched 2 sex scenes on television that I'd actually think I'd be happy to be involved in. It's all very fast. A lot of it's still clothed up against the wall. It's not It's not how it should be. So I go into all the different reasons what's wrong, and then I get them to see what actually is right about it and what is wonderful about it. And it's like seeing people's— people wake up and realize, actually, yeah, what is wrong with it? Why are we so worried about it? And It, it, nothing. It's, it's very, very simple. It— there isn't anything to be ashamed or worried about it. It's just a load of fear and shame.

Yeah, well, I just wanted to, um, touch on the subject of sexting.

Yeah.

So again, as a teenager, wasn't around because we didn't have phones in the same way, but it is now very, very accessible. And I did find some pictures on one of my teenagers' phones, and rather than hitting the roof, which was the temptation, sat down and had that conversation with— just from a very real, you know, talking about the very real risks that that picture, even though it might have done and been done in a nice context at the time, if that relationship was then to break up, which it almost certainly will do when you're relatively young. and someone goes, right, I'm really going to make life hell for you, that picture now could go viral and be absolutely anywhere. And my teen, that kind of connection hadn't been made.

Yeah.

And again, I think we're, we're constantly coming back to this thing of communication, is make the teenager aware of the risks. And actually, if that's If you're in a loving relationship, do you really need to send a picture of your, your nether regions to someone else? Yeah. What's your impression on, on sexting and the impact that that's having on teenagers' perception of sex?

Yeah, again, it's kind of objectifying. It's not connecting it to the true essence of what sexuality is. And you, you know, as with everything you've said, you're completely spot on, Caroline, that it's getting them to realize the long-term impact that this could have and if it can go wrong. I mean, I watched a documentary a while ago about revenge porn, and this is— this was a site set up of people that were angry with their exes and sent in pictures and videos of them doing things. And these people were— their lives were completely humiliated and destroyed, shamed completely. Um, which probably at the time when they sent them these videos and, um, clips, it was sent with a good intention. It wasn't sent with, um, you know. So it is again about communication and about helping them navigate this and feel comfortable in saying no. That's the biggest thing. Can you know, we are a people-pleasing, um, nature. You know, people want to not upset people, don't offend. And, and it's just getting people to accept no is okay. That's not It's not something I want to do. It's not something that is okay. Um, and I get young people to practice their no even when they want to say yes.

Right.

So that they build up the confidence to put themselves first and to, to say no. You've got to put your own needs before anybody else's.

And I think that comes down beautifully to, to one of the 3 pinnacles that you talk a lot about, I know, in a lot of your talks, and that's self-respect. Tell us a little bit more about how, as a parent, you can help your teenager build that self-respect, because a lot of teenagers, their self-esteem is still very low at that stage. So how, as parents, can we help build that self-respect and— You know, as a, as a benefit also, that self-esteem?

So self-respect— respect is treating somebody how you want to be treated yourself. So self-respect is treating you how you would want somebody to treat you. So it's about self-love and really get, you know, feeling comfortable in all of those areas. And the only way that we can feel more comfortable in all of these areas is by discussing them with, with our, with our children and with our teenagers, you know. So finding out where their vulnerabilities are and why they've got those vulnerabilities and helping to reframe them or put them in another way. How, if you had a, you know, if you say to them, if you have a friend who did that, what advice would you give them? Now that's the advice you need to be giving yourself. And you know, I do this with my son a lot of the time, and I just see this little light bulb come on, and he's like, oh yeah. And when you reframe something, it just changes, just shifts their energy totally, whether it's somebody, uh, bullying them or get trying to get an energy from you know, some power off them. If they see it in a different way, it just shifts it.

Mm-hmm.

It just shifts their whole energy around it. So it's understand— we all have trauma in our lives, you know, we could— we, we wouldn't be human without it. So it's understanding where they've got difficulties. And if you have a good relationship with your child, which means talking to them about all the different things, they will come to you and talk.

Mm-hmm.

And that just needs to be, you know, nurtured and kindled. Last night my son came to me and said that he had a bit of a problem at school yesterday, and he shared it with me, and we had a cry together, and we processed it together. And I was like, how can we work through this? And we, we just, you know, I got to it. And then we shifted it and changed it. And he, you know, he just felt much more confident with that issue.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I will talk to him tonight and say, you know, I'm really proud that you came and talked to me about that yesterday, and reaffirm the good, the openness and the honesty and the good behaviour. And it'll just, it just builds stronger relationships. And then they'll feel much more solid in themselves. But it is about, you know, helping them process the difficult things.

So self-respect is, is one of the 3 pinnacles I know you talk about. Um, and I think we've just touched on, on the next one that I know you're very passionate about, and that's honesty. And that's encouraging honesty from your teenager, but also being very honest yourself. What, um, how can you help parents to have that confidence to perhaps go into areas and, and be honest about their background, their experiences, um, their morals around sex in, um, in an honest way?

Yeah, revelation is so powerful. When you reveal some of your vulnerability or some of your truth or some of your pain with somebody else, it gives them permission to reveal, to open up to you. So you allow and you open. When you do that, then that allows them to be vulnerable and open back. So again, it's just about overcoming the fear and being vulnerable and being— and allowing to have those difficult conversations or Whatever, or shared share those experiences. We've all made mistakes, and if we share those mistakes with others, it it gives them wisdom and knowing and understanding. Ah, that that that's that they did that and impacted them, and this happened. So it's it's a deeper learning because you can then go right. I'm not going to do that because that will go me da da da da. You know. One of the things that I do in schools is the line of consequences, and I get them to see if they allow this behavior, where will they be in 5 years? Where will they be in 10 years? And not just the, the victim, it's the perpetrator as well, because this is something we've not brought up, but I've had a lot of perpetrators of abuse get in touch with me. In later years, I had a guy get in touch with me on Facebook probably 10 years ago, and he said, I need to talk to you. I am so sorry about what I did to you. Now I have a daughter that is the age that you were when I abused you. I really get— I'm so ashamed of myself and I'm sorry what I did. And He's probably been carrying that around with him for years and not any— and that will have blocked his energy and blocked his self-worth, self-confidence and stuff.

Mm-hmm.

But he'd buried it until he got a, got a, you know, he had his daughter and then it, it started to process and I was help— I was able to help. Him, you know, forgive himself and, and give him forgiveness for that, um, because of all the work I've done on myself. Um, and I've had that many times with different guys. I was working, um, a little while ago in a, uh, hospitality thing And there was a guy there and we just started to have a conversation. And I said that I was working there because I couldn't be somewhere else because of an ex-boyfriend. And we'd had a very difficult experience. And I explained a little bit about that experience. And this guy in his 70s. Mm-hmm. Just broke down and cried and started saying, "I was a lad, and I did all these horrible things to girls and women, and I have suffered with it all of my life because it wasn't okay what I did." And he was like, "I just thought it was cool." And this is you know it was a seventy-year-old man. This Opened up and just started telling me all this pain that— and he'd never been able to have a proper relationship because of it. So there's consequences both ways. Um, and that's what I found with a lot of the guys that abused me. They didn't really have good loving relationships either.

Yeah, it's, um, yeah, even as you're telling that story, and, and thank you for, for sharing that, is I, I noticed, and I'm even thinking myself, do, do I talk to my daughter differently to my son? And the answer is absolutely yes, I do. Is that right or wrong? I'll need to think on that a little bit more. But with, with the girls, there is a difference. I think girls tend to be much more emotionally involved in relationships quicker. With boys, it tends to be more physical. So with my son, I talk a lot more about the way to actually have a girlfriend is just be nice, be kind, give her the cuddles, and if it leads to something else, then that's okay. But if you go out with the intention of just getting laid that night—

Hmm.

And I think you brought up that brilliant point of it's, it's the impact that they then has on them longer term, which isn't obvious when you're a 13-year-old, 15-year-old, even 18, 19, if you're just objectifying women as a pardon my language, a shag, that is going to maybe be carrying with you, just like your story of that 17-year-old bloke. So I think that's a lovely— another angle that you can have a conversation with boys, girls to a degree, that will, um, allow you to have that conversation in an easier way.

Yeah, because we all have consciences and we know what's good or bad. We know what's right or wrong. Something feels good and empowering, or it feels not good and empowering. And if you engage with a woman sexually in, in, in an energy of deceit where you're not clear about whether it's going to be a one-night stand or not, whether, you know, what What your intentions are, that's game playing. It's not— it's manipulation. It's not— you're not— that person's not willingly— you know, we wouldn't go into a business meeting without getting all of these things into place.

Mm-hmm.

You know, are we both happy with this? What are our boundaries? Where's this gonna go? What meetings are we gonna have to have after this? So why don't we do that? with a sexual experience. You know, people will meet up and they'll dance around. Should we go for a coffee? Should we do— you know, it's code. One night I was coming home from a nightclub and, um, a guy had said, would you like to come back to my place after the club? And I was like, yeah, cool. And we went, we stopped at a garage and he said, do you want something from the garage? And I said, yes, I'd like some sweets, please. And we got— he went into the garage, we got home, and I said, where are my sweets? And he went, oh, did you mean sweets? And I was like, well, what did you think I meant? He said, I thought you meant condoms. And I said, no, I don't want to have sex with you, I want some sweets. You know, and but it's all game, it's all game playing. But why, why would you want to even have sex with somebody That doesn't want to have it with you. And do that kind of dance. Both agree with each other that this is what it is. Yeah, you could say, well, I'd just like to have a sexual experience with you. It might lead to a relationship or it might not, but at the moment I'm just seeing it as a one-night stand. A loving, conscious one-night stand that's empowering for both people, not something where you've had sex with and then discarded like a, you know, not even an animal. I, I would, you know, it's a, a rubbish, rubbish. That's what you, you know.

Yeah.

You know, why would you do that to anybody? So Yeah.

Perfect. So I think it's, um, we could carry on talking about this for a very long time. It's, uh, it's a huge subject. I think we've only just scraped the surface, Larissa. So what I'm taking away from this and all of, all of the discussions we've had is communication, communication, communication, communication. And it's going outside of your comfort zone as a parent. Oh, Something's stuck in my throat that doesn't want to say. There's the water. Um, so yes, it's going outside of your comfort zone but doing it from a place of love. Yeah, having those conversations because you want to keep your children safe, or you want them to not have experiences that you had as a teenager, or even as an adult. And if the motivation is strong enough, you will step outside of that comfort zone. And coming back to sort of my area of speciality, anxiety, when you step out of your comfort zone and you stay there, you grow.

Yeah.

And that for me often is the motivation. Step outside of your comfort zone because I'll grow as an individual, but more importantly, I will help my teenager grow as an individual as well. So if people would like to dive into this in a bit more depth, or perhaps these conversations may have triggered something in those, how can people reach out to you, Larissa?

I have a website, um, which is larissaastarragrey.co.uk, and all of my details are on there. I'm on Facebook. I have Larissa Astara Grey, Positive Sex Education Speaker. I'm in your teen group now, so people can ask me questions in there. Um, yeah, and I'm on LinkedIn if any businesses see this and they want to, um, connect with me. And that's Larissa Astara Gray. Yeah, and I'm on School Speakers website if any schools or colleges want me to come in and do talks on boundaries, consent, uh, porn, pornography truths, or anything that we've discussed today. lad culture, lad culture, because that's really, really important. Yeah.

Excellent. Well, it's been a fascinating discussion, Larissa. Thank you so much for your time, and, um, thank you for the work that you're doing. I think it's very empowering.

Thank you, Caroline. Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. My pleasure.