Interview with Nutritionalist Joyce Bergsma

I want to introduce Caroline Cavanagh. She is an anxiety specialist that I came across a few months ago, and we got into a really interesting conversation. And so I wanted to invite her here to show you what, what kind of things she's offering people and get into a couple of points that I find really interesting about her work. So welcome, Caroline.

Thanks so much, Joyce. It's, uh, it's lovely to be able to extend this conversation, and it really shows the power of social media, how you can meet up with people when we actually, um, we're on different continents, different countries in our first conversation. Um, but it's a lovely way to be able to share experience and reach a wider audience.

Yes, exactly. And, uh, so you're based in the UK. I'm normally based in the Netherlands, but I'm in Canada right now. So yeah, it really is a global community.

And I made that classic error of assuming you were American based on the accent. And I know that's almost like the worst possible thing you can do to a Canadian.

Exactly. No offense taken, though. Thank you.

I'm forgiven.

You are. You are. And yeah, I have a very close connection with the UK because I lived there for 11 years as well. So it was lovely again to hear the accent.

Funny, people often say I have an accent, but You know, I guess when you're immersed by it, you think you'd speak the same as everyone else. But yeah, viewers say if they think I've got an accent or not.

Yeah, yeah. But now that I've been in Canada, I'm visiting here for a month, I've had people tell me that I have an accent. So, but to you, I probably sound very Canadian. So, or American. Yes. You can't lose your accent, really. So, so yeah, tell us a little bit about you being an anxiety specialist, I'd love to hear a little bit of background and share it with everybody here. Because I was really interested in this chemistry session you do, but you have like quite a, like a few things in your toolkit. Tell us a little bit.

Cool, perfect. So as I say, I'm, I love working with anxiety. And one of the first things I always jump on is when people say, you know, I suffer from anxiety. And my response is always, well, you'd suffer if you didn't have it. And then I normally have to duck because people give me that evil look. But the reality is the role of anxiety is to keep us safe. If we didn't have anxiety, you'd walk out in the road without checking for cars. You'd put your hands on hot things. So anxiety is there to keep us safe. And when you make that change in your understanding of it and the value of emotion, it can really change how you can use it. So anxiety changes from being something that really puts the brakes on your life and reduces your world into something that you can use that energy to actually expand your world and actually perform to your utmost. So I actually, you know, my premise on a lot of the things that I do is, you know, anxiety is a good thing. What I teach people to do is to learn how to use it productively. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. This is such a strong thing that you're talking about here because people think that anxiety is such a huge problem. And of course it is when you're not actually in danger, but the body is designed to react in a specific way that helps us save our lives. And as you say, expand our lives. That's beautiful.

The role of anxiety is, we tend to stay away from the word fear because it's a 4-lettered F word and people don't tend to like 4-lettered F words. So we've made it a bit more socially acceptable to use the word anxiety, but ultimately it is just fear.

Mm-hmm.

And we are born with 2 emotions, fear and love, and everything else that comes in between is actually developed through our socialization and, um, and development. And the role of fear is to keep us alive. A little baby, if it gets too hot, too cold, too hungry, too anything, it will feel vulnerable. And anxiety is the response to a perceived vulnerability.

Mm-hmm.

And so, as adults, we still have that link. And if we go back all the way to cavemen, who very much were reacting on their instinctive emotions, if a tiger came into the cave, they'd need to actually run away or fight that tiger. And then the situation would be over very quickly. Either the tiger's dead or they're dead. In either situation, over. But what we tend to do now is we can trigger that sense of vulnerability through nothing more than a thought. And that's where the issue comes in, because a thought can kick around in your head for hours, days, weeks. And that then creates the chemical changes in your body that lead to the symptoms that people now say, I'm struggling with anxiety, such as insomnia, IBS, a lot of the things I think initiated our conversation, which is the link now between digestive health and mental health. Because the chemistry affects how your gut works and the gut works, how it affects how your brain works. And so there is this wonderful cooperative relationship going on that if it's not working well, you are going to have symptoms.

Yep, exactly. The stress response is, is playing a key role here. And, and sometimes it gets a little bit out of balance, which is the part where I work with my clients on, because you can get a chemical imbalance that starts with Your thoughts essentially, right? Yeah, because your body starts using up a lot of nutrients in order to deal with those thoughts that you're having.

And the impact of cortisol in the bloodstream as well.

Yeah, exactly. So that kind of takes us a little bit into your chemistry session. So tell us a little bit about that and how that works. You've, you've got this trifecta that you work with.

Yeah, so the chemistry session is the first session I have with, with all clients regardless of age, because one of the most important things for my clients to get the results that they deserve is that the chemistry between me as a therapist and them as the client is a good one. And I often say to people, you know, if you went to see your, your doctor and you didn't click with them, you're not going to get the same physical healing as you would do with a doctor that you really, really relate to and get on with. And that's the same in a therapeutic relationship, if perhaps even more important. So the chemistry session is there to to facilitate that client deciding, is the chemistry right?

Mm-hmm.

So what I do is to start off with, I explain an awful lot more about how my form of therapy works, because there is a real scientific background in it. We go through the biology largely of the mind. So they start to learn a little bit more how the mind works. We then talk about the chemistry where we look into things like cortisol and adrenaline and dopamine and serotonin and all those chemicals that we relate to as feelings. And then we talk about the physics, which is very much about energy. And you need the energy to run the biology, to run the chemistry. So you can't deal with any one of them in isolation. They are all intrinsically linked. And again, that's a personal choice to have gone down this route, because I found in the past a lot of therapists will just work on the biology. It'll just be understanding how your brain works.

Right.

But the brain is part of a wider environment. And as we've just said, if the digestive system and that chemistry isn't working well, then it's going to affect the biology.

Mm-hmm.

And if you're not sleeping well and the battery's flat, the conscious part of the mind, which sits in the frontal lobes here, is the biggest user of energy from any organ in the system. So you can have all these wonderful coping techniques, but it's a bit like driving your car. You can drive a car, it's a tool. But if there's no petrol in the engine, you can still know how to drive it, but it ain't gonna move.

Mm-hmm.

And so you have to fuel this part to be able to apply the coping techniques. So the way I like to work is we'll move away from coping techniques so that even if the battery is quite flat, you've actually got a biological, um, programming that's conducive to getting the output that you want anyway.

Yeah, right. And, um, you said to me the last time that we spoke, we talked about, um, and this was where I really felt a connection in, in the way we worked, uh, you know, on different sides, me in nutrition and you on, uh, on the, the subconscious side. But, um, talk a little bit about the root cause of anxiety. How you work with that.

Yeah, and it comes back to what we've just touched on in terms of coping techniques. So let's, let's talk about food as the obvious one. Most people know that eating 6 doughnuts is not good for them, but you get into that place where you think, oh, I've had a really bad day, what's going to make me feel better? A doughnut. And then that part of the brain that's saying, I feel really bad, goes, I'm feeling better, I'm have another one.

And it's that dopamine release.

And the expectation to just have one means the packet's empty.

Yeah.

So you can have a coping technique that's a bit like, I don't know if you have, where you have them, things like Weight Watchers, Slimming World that we have in the UK, that are very much, you know, you count your calories or you have points or sins or whatever they may be. And that is very much a coping technique. It's an intellectual approach to what is a subconscious programming. So you've got the intellect up here, but you've got that primitive part of the brain going, I feel rubbish, what makes me feel better in the moment? Sugar, or alcohol, or nicotine. And so you've got a real gap between the coping technique and where the problem actually lies.

Yeah.

So the work that I do is, again, that coping technique requires a lot of energy, is to actually take that away and work at the level that the programming is actually based on, which is a different part of the brain. It's back here at the subconscious level.

Yeah.

So that when you have that bad day and you think, oh, what will make me feel better? Actually, the subconscious response is go and have a bath or do some meditation, something that will genuinely make you feel better rather than harming your body, because it's not a short-term solution. It's looking at the wider implications too.

Yeah. And because with those first things, you're, you know, reaching for the donuts and, and the alcohol and things like that, like you're really numbing. You're not doing something positive. You're not healing yourself. You're not nourishing yourself. And I talk lightly about this with a lot of my clients because I work in a very holistic way, but I don't get really into the subconscious because you really need to, to address that as well.

Mm-hmm.

At the same time that you're addressing nutrition deficiencies and imbalances in the body, right? Yeah. Um, which affect the brain. Of course, it's all connected by the vagus nerve and, uh, the numerous chemical signals that are happening, but it really is a two-way street. Yeah.

And the, the easiest way to differentiate, if you are thinking about doing something and it requires concentration, then you are predominantly using the conscious mind.

Yeah.

If you are not thinking about doing it and it's almost like it's on autopilot, then you are using the subconscious. So anything we learn to do, you know, riding a bicycle as a child, driving a car, that initially is a conscious process because you're really thinking about what you need to do. But now most of us will jump in the car and drive somewhere, and you'll arrive and you probably can't even remember the journey because you're running on that autopilot. It's being run from the subconscious mind. So again, if you relate this to eating, if you find yourself eating something and you don't even realize what you're eating, Then you're not engaging with it consciously. Therefore, you can't apply a coping technique because that needs that to run.

Yes, exactly, exactly. And, you know, we today we just have a short session. But of course, I would love to invite you back to get more into things like really in detail for my YouTube channel. But I just wanted, as one last thing, to talk about— you had this amazing analogy about digging weeds. And how did that go? I would love to hear it again.

Yeah, this really sort of is a great metaphor to clarify what we've just been talking about in terms of the difference between coping techniques and dealing with the root problem. So I say to my clients, OK, just imagine you have a garden and it's full of weeds. You can get the gardener in. And he can come in and cut off the weeds at soil level and the garden looks great for a little while and then the weeds come back and you need to keep getting the gardener in. And that then becomes quite a high cost to you in terms of paying for the gardener, having to remember to book him and, and so it goes on, so it drains the battery. My approach is that I come in with this toolbox And I look at the weeds and I go, okay, so the tool that's going to help this weed most is this one. And then I give my client the tool and teach them how to use it to dig up the root. Because when the root has gone, the weed doesn't grow back. Plus, they have a tool that they can go around the rest of the garden and dig up all of those weeds too.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's ultimately, you know, very simplistic, but really kind of, it does capture what I do. It's about digging up the roots of what is creating your anxiety. anxiety that is outside of that self-protection mechanism. Now, we don't want to take anxiety away because then you'll walk out in front of the road and get run over. But it's all about worrying about, I don't know, for example, losing your job or your partner cheating on you. Even if it may not happen, may never happen, it requires— your brain can't tell the difference. And it triggers that same response and the body chemistry that goes along with that.

Mm-hmm.

As if it was real.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you are essentially empowering people to learn how to deal with all these different weeds that exist in their life, and rather than just pulling it out yourself or chopping them off. And, and that is also the way that I work, you know. I don't give people menus, but I maybe teach them how they can best create a menu for themselves. So it's all about empowerment, education, and supporting people along that journey as they learn. You know, anybody that learns a new skill, um, they don't learn it in one go. They need support along the way. And, uh, and that's what our, our role is, right?

Absolutely. And I think it's, um, yeah, there's a lovely synergy between us because again, so many of these, uh, weight loss style plans are very, very controlling, but can take that troll away and therefore the behavior returns. Um, and I'm sure you've come across multiple people that have done what I call the yo-yo effect with weight.

Yes.

You know, they'll, they'll lose multiple kilograms, then they'll put it all back on and some. And that actually stress on the body is phenomenal.

It really is. Yeah. And that affects the mind.

It's almost worse to have lost the weight and then put it on to have stayed at a higher weight all the time.

It is. Yeah, it really is.

Because you're not— then you're changing the coping technique. The coping technique is the diet plan, the rules, the system. Take that away, it reverts back to that subconscious programming.

Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much, Caroline. And where can everyone find you?

The best place is to start off with the website. There's a huge amount of information on there about anxiety, the form of therapy that I use, which is largely around hypnosis, very, very powerful technique and nothing like the stage shows and that, that a lot of people go, oh my God, you're gonna make me cluck like a chicken. No, we're not. It's, you know, hypnosis goes back 3,000 years. It's a wonderfully powerful tool.

Wow.

And something that I would love every child in this country, it's one of my missions to actually get it on at school. Um, so everyone in school actually learns all it is. It's state of relaxation. It's a state that we drift into and out of every single day. Um, and there's some stuff in there about weight loss as well. So it gets you a really good view of what it would be like working with me. And if that still, um, is of interest, then there's a link to, um, either contact me or to book on for a chemistry session yourself.

Oh, fantastic. Thank you.

I—

there's a really good video that you sent me as well on how— what it's like to really work with you. And so you go a little bit more into depth than what you did today. And yeah, we can share that link as well in the chat.

Yeah, that's on the contact page. And it's very much there. I work from a home environment and it just helps people again, if they're coming somewhere completely new, just to have a picture of what the house looks like, what the room looks like that you're going to be sitting in, what the dog's gonna look like that's barking the other side of the door to you. It all just helps create that familiarity. But similarly, I can always, sessions with people online as well, which has been one of the many positives of the, uh, the recent pandemic that we've all been living through. Um, means that I literally, if you can speak English, then I can work with you wherever you are.

Yeah. Fantastic. Great. Thank you so much for sharing, Caroline. It's been a delight.

Thank you.

And we'll see you again on the YouTube channel.

I look forward to it.

Okay.