Podcast with Executive Confidant David Watson

Hello and welcome to the very first ever David Watson Podcast. And today my first special guest is Caroline Cavanagh, and I talk with Caroline all things regarding her therapy practice, netball, her dog, and a few things in between. I hope you enjoy it. Without further ado, let me introduce you to Caroline. Well, yeah, it is looking very high-tech. What you don't realize is literally before I got the notification to say you joined the meeting, this mic stand fell off the table and I was on the floor picking it up and all the pieces that went with it.

It's all right. I can imagine like Virgin Radio, BBC One, you know, you look the part.

There's looking the part and, um, and let's just leave it at that. I actually discovered for— since I've had this mic stand, I thought it swiveled. And it was— it's great, you know, I love that. No, it just turns out I hadn't tightened the screw up properly that holds it in place. So, and that being then the best, the best sort of example I can give of my technical knowledge. Um, and I think we are recording. Um, yeah, it does say we're recording. So this is going to be very, um, yeah, let's see how it goes. But thank you very much for joining me on this. Thank you. And you've already cut out. Oh no, you're back. You just completely froze at my end.

Yeah, vice versa. You froze. Your picture froze as well. This is going to be good, isn't it?

This is the, the, um, the great thing about doing something for the first time, isn't it? Is, um, understanding whether or not these things are normal or is something you did.

And you know, if it, if it doesn't work, we'll just do it again another time.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so how are you? You all right?

I'm very well, thank you.

Good, good.

So good about the video shoot. Um, went well?

It did, it did go very well. Um, yeah, it was a lot of fun as well, a lot of fun. I was very fortunate, uh, with everything that Gid and Alex did And, uh, yeah, we'll see that how that goes. Um, so as I have very limited editing skills, I decided I wasn't going to edit this at all and I'll just play it as it is.

Okay.

Um, um, but I will give a mention, a shout out to Gid, who has actually done me a little intro music. So when it comes out, it will have that. Um, so just a little disclaimer for everybody who may listen to this. Caroline is actually my therapist. My coach, my therapist, and definitely my confidant in so many areas of my life. But one of the things before we got into actually you, could you introduce your dog for me to everyone else? Because one of the reasons I love your dog so much is she's a hugger.

And as soon as I turn up, I'm going to get a complex about this because so many people, like you get used to it as a parent that you become Nadia's mum or Eden's mum.

Yeah.

I was once introduced to someone as Sapphire's mum. It's like, no, that really is taking it a bit too far.

Yeah.

So I had the most beautiful Weimaraner, and most people don't actually know what they look like. And it's quite funny, it's one of those dogs that when they— when people see them, they kind of go, oh, aren't they beautiful? That's a— and it always makes me laugh because my mother-in-law could never remember the word Weimaraner, so she said it sounds a bit like banana.

And that kind of sums it up, really.

Yeah, just, she's great fun and she makes me laugh every single day and I love her to bits.

How long have you had her?

She is 8 years old, just over 8 years old. We picked her up, in fact I first met her when she was about 36 hours old.

Wow.

She was about the size of a mole, you could actually fit her on your palm, but Weimaraners are actually quite quite difficult to get hold of. Fortunately, they're not one of the breeds that are into the kind of mass market, big breeding scene now. And it was lovely in that the breeder I found actually interviewed me. It wasn't a case of, I've got this dog, you know, if you've got lots of money, you can have one. It was just like, no, my dogs only go to homes that are gonna know how to look after them, because they are, you know, a little bit challenging in terms of their characteristics.

Yeah.

So yeah, when the litter was delivered, he basically phoned me up because I wanted a girl. He said there's only 2 bitches, so, you know, if you want to have first choice, can you be here within the next 48 hours? And the answer was yep. And then we brought her home at 7 weeks old. So yeah, she is very much a part of our family in every way, shape, or form.

Well, because I mean, one of the reasons I love her so much is when I come to yours It's, I can't— I'm allowed into the house but then have to stop for hugs before I can proceed into the kitchen to go upstairs. It's just like, no, no, we, we need to have a little meet and greet session and we're going to have a little hug. And then when we go to the kitchen, we're going to hug some more.

She is such a diva. If people don't pay her attention, she gets really, really miffed about it. But actually, you know, joking aside, it's, it's one of the things I actually use her because dogs are so instinctive and they are so brilliant at picking up on people's energy. And obviously a lot of the people that are coming into my home to work with me one-to-one, I might have, you know, most of them I've had a phone conversation with, but most of them I have never met before. And, you know, I'm here on my own the majority of the time. And so I will take, you know, 5, 10 minutes to make a cup of tea. And what I'm watching out the side of my eye is how is the dog reacting to this person? Because if her hackles are up and she's not happy, then My warning signs are on.

Yeah.

And so, you know, yeah, it is one of the wonderful things about most animals. They just run on their intuition. And if something's spiking hers and she doesn't like it, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be thinking twice about whether I want to work with this person too.

Okay. Does that come into play often?

Rarely, rarely. You know, there's only been a couple of times, um, when, yeah, she's just not taken to someone. One of the people we never really got down to because she was an absolute dog lover.

Yeah.

And the other one, Sapphire's instinct was spot on.

All right, that's interesting. That's interesting. And what made you choose that breed?

One of my, I guess, my characteristics— I've always loved things that are different. I'm an army wife as well, and there are so many stereotypical views of what an army life is, or an army wife is like, especially sort of an officer's wife. And there's these views, you're called all kinds of, you know, green wellies and doing tea parties. And as you know me, that doesn't quite fit me either. But, you know, so many army officers have, you know, the chocolate labs, the black labs, beautiful dogs, love them to bits. And I just thought, nah, not doing that, not going down that road.

Yeah.

And it was purely a family friend of mine. She had 2, what they call German retrievers. that are very similar, and they're just beautiful looking dogs.

She is a very elegant looking dog. She's gorgeous.

Yeah, and, you know, on top of that, um, I'm slightly asthmatic, so having a dog that doesn't moult is beneficial. And yeah, it's just a number of factors that came together, and yeah, they are quite original. So in the village that I live in in Wiltshire, there's only one other dog that you've ever seen. Um, and I just like things that are a little bit different. Okay, they're just intelligent dogs. She's— they're a real bugger to breed because— sorry, to breed— to, uh, train, because they'll kind of look at you, say, I know what you want me to do, I just can't be arsed to do it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

And I kind of love that characteristic in them, as opposed to the Labs that are just like, you've got a sausage, what do you want me to do? I'll do anything.

Well, because that's what I mean. There's— when I come into the house, sometimes there are moments when it's 2 minutes, and then there's other times I've ended up sat on the floor and she's just right in there. It's like, no, we're not done yet, you know.

Yeah, I'm gonna sit on your lap and you're not getting up until I've finished.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, I need some attention and you're going to give it to me right now, you know. But it— there's a real love about her, do you know what I mean? If she likes you she likes you. It's just all giving. And, uh, so yeah, so I was just— I've always curious why, why you had her.

Um, and you've taken 7 years to ask me that question. Well done.

Well, it just seemed like a good way to, to, to introduce you to people. It's via the sort of side door of using Sapphire, do you know what I mean? Is, uh, you know, rather than jump straight into, oh, you're a therapist. What's that like? You know?

Yeah. No, yes, no, that's— it's a really lovely way of having done that because again, so many people have a perception of what a therapist is like, especially, you know, hypnotherapy, that— I mean, it is changing and it may be a little bit outdated now, but certainly, you know, 5, 6 years ago, people assumed that I was going to be wearing lots of flower power, long flowing clothes and have joss sticks burning and all that kind of stuff. And at the end of the day, I'm just, you know, I'm just a woman with 2 kids facing all the same challenges in life as everyone else. I've just developed a toolkit that is my career that I share with others to help them face challenges too.

That's a very good point, um, is because like you said, you know, if there's one chip I've always had on my shoulder, it's that flower power jostick type style, when actually probably the biggest market or the bigger client base is the business side of it and possibly one of the places where it's most effective, you know, because you were recently with— was it Wiltshire Council?

Yeah, I did a talk at the headquarters of Wiltshire County Council, yeah. You know, every employee is still a human being.

What were you explaining to them?

I did a talk for them. They have a brilliant program that's all— that allows their— I should know the name off the top of my head, but it's just escaped me for the moment— that allows all of their employees to access self-development. So I was talking about managing stress and anxiety, and they do things along that sort of emotional development side of things, but they also do very practical things as well. And it's just additional thing that their employees have access to just to enrich their life.

So when you were invited in, what was the remit for, you know, like literally, would you just come and talk to us, or we, we heard you did this, could you come and talk to us about that?

Um, well, I was, I was given an introduction to the, um, the HR guy, um, as an anxiety specialist, so I guess that, um, that was already his interest. And yeah, I just had a bit of a chat to him and we identified what would be the most appropriate thing that I could talk about that would help their employees. So the talk was— COVID was just starting to raise its head, but we were still a long way from talking about lockdown. But, you know, again, in most organizations, in most people's lives, there is some form of anxiety and certainly stress. And so the talk, I went through 10 different tools that I use on the premise that no one tool is perfect for every situation, no one tool is perfect for every person. So by introducing them to a variety, my aim was so that everyone in that room, and we had just over 100 people, could walk away with at least one thing that they knew they could do differently. That's something that's really important to me in all of the talks that I do, that they're very practical. You know, I've been to talks myself, it's like, oh, that was nice, but, you know, 5 minutes later you've forgotten about it. Yeah. And I really want people to learn something and more importantly, to have the motivation to then go and use that learning. Actually, because if you don't actually use anything, there's been no value added.

No, actually, you just said something there that stood out is something that they can take away that's practical.

Yeah.

You know, so because we're like moving in theory, there's— with everything that's going on in the world right now, um, there is the— we're coming out of lockdown, everything's going to be fine. Uh, we're coming out of lockdown, we're all going to have to wear masks. We're coming out of lockdown and we're going to be locked down again because there's a second wave. Um, and it's just really difficult right now to be Because a lot of anxiety can be eased with certainty, and there just isn't any, you know.

Yeah.

Um, what are you seeing patterns that are helping people? Or, um, I'm trying to think of the, the better, you know, like examples, if it's possible, of practical solutions for when people are sort of struggling a bit with, or just if you're thinking about the future and how it's going to affect you. You know, but you're getting anxious about that, going out and stuff.

Yeah, I think one of the things I'm talking about a lot with people at the moment, so if we just rewind it a little bit, anxiety, my belief, is a response to a perception of vulnerability. That could be physical, it could be emotional. So hence, yes, when lockdown started, anxiety for a lot of people went through the roof because there's that vulnerability, you know, am I going to be furloughed? Can I pay my mortgage on 80% of my salary? Am I going to lose my job? So there was a huge amount of vulnerability, but now, you know, 4 or 5 months in, whatever we are, a lot of that people kind of go, okay, yeah, I can still make my mortgage, you know, my job is still looking relatively secure. So what's tended to happen is in that period of those 4 months or so is there has been a constant change And it's almost like change has become the new stability. And that for a lot of people is actually really, really good.

I hadn't thought of it like that.

Because it allows them to recognize that, yeah, I was challenged, but it's okay. So we have in our language the phrase comfort zone.

Yes.

And we all understand, I'm in my comfort zone. But the reality is, for a lot of people, the comfort zone isn't comfortable. What the comfort zone actually translates as is, I understand how it works. So again, the sort of analogy that I often give to people that most people can relate to is, sadly, a lot of abused women, once they are, you know, relieved from abusive relationship, often go into another abusive relationship because they understand how abusive relationships work. What they don't understand, and what is actually scary for them, is loving relationships.

Change.

So they drift back to something that they're familiar with, because that's what comfort zone is about. It's about familiarity.

Yes, it's probably a better explanation of it.

When we talk about going outside of our comfort zone, what we're actually saying is I'm going into something that I don't understand how it works. Yeah, so starting a new job, you're going outside your comfort zone, you don't know how it works. So I do a lot of work with teenagers. When we'd speak about, you know, the first day you started secondary school, it was all a big new because you, you might have gone from a little village school that was 150 Kids, 1,000 people, you know, wow, quantum leap! But then as we continue talking, they recognize that, you know, on that Monday morning that they started, they'd probably been to the toilet 10 times, they had sweaty palms, their heart rate was through the roof. That's your body preparing you to deal with something that you don't know. By Tuesday morning, a little bit better. By Friday— A lot better. They were going in as if they'd been there all year. Yeah, yeah. So a comfort zone is only uncomfortable for a very short period of time until you learn the rules. As soon as you learn the rules again, your comfort zone expands. So bringing that all the way back to kind of COVID a lot of people's comfort zones have expanded because they've learned to live in a period of vulnerability.

Well, I've actually written down the line you used. Because I like— it could be a t-shirt— change is the new stability.

Yeah, yeah. And so again, now in the phase that we're in where a lot of people have returned to work or are returning to work, that's like the new wave coming in because people are recognizing that what used to be the comfort zone isn't going to be the same anymore. You know, desks may be further apart, or it may be that only half the team are in at a time. And actually, ironically, that's even more uneasy than going back to something that you used to know.

Yeah, familiarity is, you know—

Yeah, so it's almost like if it's totally new, you kind of go in with, with all of those resources ready to face something that you don't know anything, but Something that you used to know but isn't the same anymore just feels quite awkward.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Yeah, but the same principle, you'll be back at work for, you know, a week getting used to, you know, everyone not being able to use the coffee machine, you have to take your own kettle in or whatever it may be.

There'd be trouble if I couldn't use the coffee machine.

Or, you know, people not having lunch together in the same way, you know, in a week, in 2 weeks, that's going to be the new norm. The new comfort zone and it will be fine.

Okay, yeah, yeah, no, that's— I like that.

So I can see some cogs turning in your head there.

I, I still— it's that changes the new stability. I, I really like that as a tagline because actually, as you were saying, you know, it's comfort zone is, is really an illusion in the word because you're not comfortable, it's just you're used to it. Yeah, and it's—

and in, in the majority of cases prior to COVID, if something changed in your life, it typically was only one area of your life. So it may be that, you know, you change jobs, or it may be a relationship broke down and you're in a new phase of, you know, your romantic life, but your job was still stable. So if you were to compartmentalize your life into the sort of key areas, typically change only ever happened in, in one of them. But during COVID it happened to all of them.

Yeah.

You know, suddenly work was different. You were, you know, talking from a personal perspective, I'm used to working at home on my own, and suddenly I've got 2 teenage kids and a husband kicking around all the time, you know, not clearing up after they make their lunch, and all those things that kind of like, ugh! So, you know, change, and you couldn't go out to the restaurants, you couldn't have a social life. One of my passions is netball. I haven't been able to, you know, play netball or be on a court since early March. So suddenly, you know, it's not just one area of life, all areas of life will change. So it's like we've all gone into this kind of deep dive experience of dealing with change. And I genuinely believe, you know, I will always look really hard at times to find the positives in any situation because they're there. Sometimes they're easy to see, sometimes you do need to poke around a little bit, but I really think that from lockdown there are going to be a huge amount of positives coming out of it, and one of them being people's adaptability and response to change is going to be much better.

Yeah, I do definitely see— the interesting thing about COVID is it was, I was about to say sold to us, but I don't want it to sound cynical, I don't mean it like that, but it was presented as life-threatening and we were potentially all going to die. And actually, we've all come out almost at the other end, but it forced us into such, um, a change, such a change of dynamic, such a change. And as you know, because I work in care, I was actually one of the fortunate people that had hardly had any impact on me. I was out and about and carried on working, um, whereas lots Lots of people were in that bubble. And is it because you and I have discussed, um, sort of privately some of the things that I've come across where I was literally oblivious to the fact that some people were in a bubble and were worried about going outside? Because I literally have never been busier because I work in care and I, you know, all my hours doubled. So I was just going backwards and forwards to work. We were putting on our PPE, doing what we needed to do. And then as the lockdown was eased and you could meet people for the first time in social distance, I've got people who are like, I've not been out for 3 months. What's it like? Have the zombies gone? Has the apocalypse over? Is everyone dead? You're just like, what the hell? I mean, it's a slight exaggeration, but it was like, wow, this, this is going to be difficult for people.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it— for some people, my, again, my personal view is that, you know, there's a number of things. We as human beings, we are herd animals. The Dalai Lama may do well sitting up a mountain on his own, but he's a pretty rare, pretty rare beast. We are designed to live with other people. So for those who perhaps are living on their own, or perhaps just living with, with one partner, That can become very, very intense, and that creates a stress of its own. But I think a more relevant factor is people's interpretation of the information that they were getting.

Yeah.

There was a hell of a lot of misinformation, scaremongering going on out there. So I made the personal choice For the first few weeks, I probably— there used to be a briefing, wasn't there, about 5 o'clock every day?

Yes.

And I used to listen to those because my perception was they were coming from the top, and it's good to understand that big picture. But other than that, I never listened to the news. I don't read newspapers, completely turned off social media, because that's where I think all of those people who have got hugely frightened is because all of the mis— you information that was going on out there. And something that, you know, some people may not like me saying this, but it is my belief. So many people were starting to think that if they were exposed to the virus, they were going to get seriously ill and potentially die.

Yes.

My view is bollocks. We all have immune systems. And I think there's— it's now starting to come out and be shown that a lot of people actually had it and may just thought they had a cold. Yeah, there's a family in the village that I live in, both of the adults are GPs and they've, you know, they've been tested, the whole family's been tested, they all had it and, you know, they can track it back to all thinking that they had flu back in February. Yeah, so, you know, I had a period again in February where I thought I'm just ridiculously tired for no normal reason So it may be that I had corona at the time and my body was just working blinking hard to fight off that, but fortunately because I invest a lot in my immune system and staying healthy, I didn't actually get any symptoms. But I think there is— there were people out there, and some justifiably, you know, if you had an immunosuppressant illness, if you're diabetic, all of those things that we're now aware that leave you more vulnerable. But there are a lot of people who, like me, that I know were fit and healthy that became terrified that if they even contacted another human being, they were going to die.

Yeah, well, that, that was kind of my experience of bumping into people or going around to see people for the first time who had been in these complete bubbles. And it's just like, you do realize half the country just carried on because they weren't furloughed, they weren't— and they're like, oh yeah, but you know, You must have done. No, no, no. We carried on. It's, it's like half the country was put in a bubble, wrapped up, and they didn't seem to be aware. It's like, what, one of the things I noticed, which is what surprised me, is there was no jump in understanding that while you've been in a bubble, how did you get your packages delivered that came off Amazon? You know, because the driver just popped them on your doorstep and walked away, they kind of lost the connection that a human being put the parcel in a package which got sent to a warehouse which got distributed to a lorry driver who's been to a fuel depot, filled up a lorry, and has now delivered it to your house.

Yeah.

The same as the shops have carried on, the farmers carried on, The shop assistants carried on, the shelf stackers carried on. It was just like they didn't— it's almost like they— it was what, the Starship Enterprise? You just pressed a button and your meal miraculously appeared. It's just like, no.

I talk a lot in, in many ways about, yeah, anxiety and different emotions as well, about calibration.

Yeah.

So, you know, if you take a simple scale of 0 to 10, we all have a different point that we're comfortable in. So, you know, taking it back to anxiety, I will often live my life, you know, pushing that needle up to 8s or 9s. You know, I've jumped out of aeroplanes and I'm constantly pushing myself out of my comfort zone because, one, I'm an adrenaline junkie, And 2, I know that the other side of that activity, my comfort zone grows. And I love, you know, just pushing myself and saying, just how far can I, can I push things? So I will voluntarily take that needle up to the 8s and 9s and possibly even 11 sometimes. But that's okay. Most of the time, you know, it might be down at 4 or 5. There's other people I know who want their comfort zone, want their needle to be at a 2, and that's okay for them. Their life— they have a very happy life living, you know, going to exactly the same place on holiday every year, seeing exactly the same friends, doing exactly the same thing. I'm not judging them. That works for them, and I'm incredibly happy for them.

I could easily do that.

Yeah, there you go, and that's fine. So this is not about judgment. It's all about you as an individual. What makes you want to get up in the morning and be happy.

Yeah.

So bringing— I don't know why I went off on that line. So talking about calibration, yeah, so we can calibrate risk as well. So similarly, I am prepared to take more risks because I feel very strongly that I am at very, very low risk of getting ill, a negligible risk of, you know, of any fatalities. You know, I don't even get colds the majority of the time, and if I do, it's normally because I've been burning the candle at both ends and I've got overly tired. There's a justifiable reason. And again, other people, they are— they want their risk to be down at 1, and so that's okay. I respect that they're a 1, and I also ask for their respect that I might go up to a 7 or an 8.

Yeah.

Yes, let's all make adult decisions about what is right for us. So I agree. Hands up, I confess, and, you know, slap me if you wish to, I did see a couple of clients in my home soon after lockdown purely because they were people that my perception was, having spoken to them on the phone, if I didn't see them They were at risk of committing suicide.

Yeah.

And I made that decision that I was willing to bring someone into my home because my conscience wouldn't let me run the risk of them actually taking their life when I could have made a difference. And that may be utterly selfish, but my ego wouldn't allow me to actually say if that person took their life when I thought I might have been able to make a difference, my conscience wouldn't have been able to do that.

No, I don't, I don't think it does because this is what I'm saying, like, go purely from the care work perspective. I was in and out of people's homes.

Yeah.

So, so were members of my team. And people don't understand that all the domestic help in terms of care workers and who visit elderly vulnerable people and, uh, elderly and vulnerable that live in supported living environments or their own home where people come in to take care of them. That carried on. It didn't stop for any of them, you know. So these people were never in that bubble. That bubble never happened for them.

Yeah.

And I don't think people really understand that.

Yeah. And again, you know, with the few clients that did come here, you know, I explained to them, this is what I can do. And then the other members of my family, we made sure that they were in different rooms. Um, you know, fortunately my workroom is large enough that we can put chairs far, you know, easily 2 metres away, and once they left, I just antibac wiped the chair, the handrails, you know, everything that they touched.

Yeah.

So for me, in terms of my calibration, my exposure to risk was acceptable, and similarly, they made that decision for theirself that coming into my home, you know, I could be a carrier, I don't know. They were making that choice themselves, but to them, that risk was less than the risk they felt of not talking and having some help with the other challenges they were facing. So yeah, it's all relative, and I believe even now moving forward, people have to make that decision that is right for them and respect other people are doing the same.

I, yeah, I was listening to, I think it was a Joe Rogan podcast, and I can't remember the specialty of the guest, but it was to do with control of diseases and stuff. And he just said, trying to stop an airborne virus is like trying to stop the wind. It's impossible. And at that moment, I realised I could take certain precautions, but after that, it was beyond anything I could do. So—

Yeah.

And that's— it sounds overly pragmatic. I just actually, for me, decided there wasn't much I could do to stop it. So I didn't want it to impact as much as Too much, but changing tack completely. I know that you're a hypnotherapist, but how did you actually get into this? And would you sorry? Was it therapy first and then hypnotherapy, or hypnotherapy and then becoming a therapist?

Do you know what I mean? I I started off doing NLP neuro linguistic. programming. It wasn't a conscious thought. I guess if you go right back to the start of the story, I've always, always been interested in why do people do what they do.

Yeah. Yeah.

So my first book that I bought even as a teenager was on body language because I recognized that, you know, there's some men that sit there with their hands behind their head in that whole kind of like, I'm king.

Yeah.

Yeah. And even how people held themselves, their posture, their body language, really was a massive part of that communication, and it just intrigued me. I had a place to study psychology at university, but for a number of reasons didn't, you know, didn't go. But that seed has always been there about what makes people tick, what makes people do what they do. And then I ended up, as I say, marrying my husband, and we moved from living in London to living in a deep dark corner of Wiltshire, which was one hell of a culture shock. And a few months after being out there, he then disappeared off to Bosnia for 6 months. So I was left in this place where I didn't really know anyone, as an army wife, not really knowing apart from everyone wears green. What the hell does that mean? And during the week it was okay because I could keep myself busy with work, but weekends were shit.

Yeah.

They were hell. And so any opportunity I got to fill my weekends, I would just jump at. And this friend phoned me up one day and said, oh, I've just booked on this NLP course. And without even drawing breath, I said, don't know what NLP is, I'm coming. Because it was an opportunity to fill in a weekend.

The roots of the adrenaline junkie right there.

Yeah. And so we traipsed off down to Canterbury and, you know, still not really knowing what NLP was. And all I can say, it was like putting on an old comfy jumper. I just sat there 3 days thinking, this is what I was meant to do.

Okay.

I love it. I get it. And to me, it felt easy. So at the end of that weekend, I signed up for the certification level, did that a year later, went back and did the master's level. And there, you know, NLP is very good in many ways. But there's a lot of things that I wasn't comfortable about it. I nearly failed my master level because I kept going what the teacher called off-piste.

Yeah.

You're supposed to stay to script, and I'm like, yeah, but this script doesn't fit this person, so I'm gonna go off-piste, and that wasn't allowed. And so, yeah, I nearly failed. And I didn't like that kind of regimented approach that I had been taught. Cut forward a few years, we ended up in Germany. I've got 2 very young kids, and Nick is is quite senior, so people didn't really want to work with the boss's wife. So I didn't get much opportunity to actually use this sort of, you know, toolkit that I developed. Yeah, we came back to the UK and Nick phoned me up one day and he said, I've just interviewed a sergeant major. And he said, you won't believe it, he's also a hypnotherapist. And, you know, I think you two should have a chat. So 3-hour conversation with this guy later, I asked him what course he'd done. And ended up signing up to it myself because it just epitomized everything that I wanted to do, to just be taught a whole range of tools so I can go, right, I'm working with David Watson, so I'm going to use tool A, F, and K. But then I might be working with Sheila and I'll use tool B and G. And then I might be working with, you know, 14-year-old Toby and he's going to use tool W and K. Because it's not about— it's about using the particular techniques that that person needs at that time. And, you know, that's what I've continued to do and continue to just keep adding to my toolkit.

Yes, I suppose that's very much the coaching side of it as well, isn't it? Is understanding the way that different people respond to different techniques and when you introduce them and when you try something different. You know, it is learning where the curves are with people and how people respond and how they adapt to whatever. Because you, you often say, refer, you know, when you're talking to me, we're doing sessions and stuff about what you have in your toolkit, you know, and, and how life is about like you have this for this scenario, this for when you, you know, you're doing this. And it's a lot of, um, especially what you taught me was understanding when the tools I had were aiding me and when they were sabotaging me, you know. But it was, it was the way you were able to see me, um, help me see that, that was, you know.

It's really easy to think positively when you're in a good mood.

Yeah, yeah.

But if you are down and someone says, oh, have happy thoughts, you just go, oh, fuck off.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 100%.

Can't do that because at that point that tool is out of your reach. So hence, you know, I have what I call my first aid kit. There are 3 tools that when you're even in the bleakest of places you can use. Anyone can do it. And yeah, they're very, very simple ones, even just changing your posture. So I used to do this a lot with going into— I used to go into schools and sort of do assemblies and workshops for kids. And kids respond to this stuff so, so well. And I'd say to them, right, you know, be depressed, act depressed. And everyone would kind of lean forward, the shoulders would hunch, the head would go down. I said, right, holding that posture, now try and think happy thoughts.

Yeah.

Really, really hard. And if anyone wants to, you know, try this when they're listening to it, give it a go, because you can really notice the difference. And then you do the opposite. Stand up, feel really grounded, get your feet, you know, hip distance apart, straight back, head up, or even if you can, start dancing. And now try and think depressive thoughts. It's really, really hard. Yeah, so even when you notice, I'm feeling really down, even just changing your posture shifts your energy enough. to give you access to another tool. Yeah, hence if you have your toolbox and tool— yeah, 10 tools in your toolbox, you might then be able to get to the next one, which will get you to the next one, which will get you to the next one.

Yeah.

The other thing that I use a lot, you know, when I'm in those, those black moments is music. On my phone, I have a playlist of about 12 songs, and it doesn't matter how miserable I am, if I listen to those songs, it lifts me.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's another thing that I ask a lot of my students, my clients to do, is put that playlist together. And it's lists of, you know, I like kind of Latino music, and as soon as you put something on, I just can't help starting to jig, and then the fit goes, and he's like, oh bugger, I'm up on the desk. You've shifted that energy. I've got a couple, um, one of them in there, as I said, I threw myself out of an aeroplane a few years ago. I got back in my car And the first song that came on the radio, it was almost like it was waiting for me to turn the radio on, was a Sia song called I'm Alive.

Oh, right, yeah.

I sat in my car and I just roared.

Yeah.

Because it was so funny, you know, I've just jumped 15,000 feet, I'm alive!

Yeah.

I won't try and sing it because I'm nowhere near Sia, but you know—

I was waiting for the rendition.

No, no, you listen to would actually turn off at that point completely. So, you know, whenever, even now, I mean, that was 3, 4 years ago maybe, I still, when I listen to that song, I can feel an adrenaline rush. Yes, the association is so strong. So, you know, we've all got those, those bits of music that take us back to a lovely memory, a childhood memory. It might be someone's first dance at their wedding. It doesn't matter.

Mine is cheesy '80s pop.

Yeah, why doesn't that surprise me?

Some, you know, like as soon as you said that, I was thinking wham!

Yeah.

You're Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go or something.

Now, you know, I've got the privilege of seeing you on video. You've just lit up.

That's it, because, because you and I were talking, you start, music starts playing through your head, you know, and, and I don't know why it is because I'm, as you know, I'm more of a reader than a music person. and I can listen to anything, but the stuff that will get me out of a mood is cheesy. Everything from S Club to Wham!, you know, if it's cheesy pop culture, I'm all in, you know, and it's ridiculous.

Can you imagine, you know, if you were— you know, we all have really down days, down periods. If you were in your bleakest of moment, if you listen to Wham! Would you feel differently?

I, I can't say I wouldn't because as soon as we started talking about it, there was 2 things I became aware of. As soon as we started talking about that music, I suddenly started thinking of all these cheesy songs, you know, like Nina, 99 Red Balloons, um, S Club 7, Reach, you know what I mean? Wham!, Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go. And then the other thing I became aware of is I don't listen to any sort of down or moody music if I'm not feeling good because I, I'm aware that it suppresses my mood. But I hadn't actually given much thought until you mentioned it of how much the cheesy stuff really lifts me up.

Yeah, so another, another metaphor I use quite a lot is that, um, I don't even know where it came from, it's that adage that It takes a lot of work to get a big stone rolling, but once it's rolling, you can move it very easily.

Yeah.

And that's the same principle. So listening to, you know, a couple of tracks of Wham! are not going to get you from being down in the gloom to partying, but it gets the stone rolling.

Yeah.

And once it's rolling, you keep rolling much more easily. And that's— it's always, you know, regardless of whether I'm dealing with someone that's struggling with depression, anxiety, whatever it may be, it's taking that first step. So a great example was I was working with someone last week. He'd, you know, got himself in quite a dismal place, and I pushed him way, way, way outside of his comfort zone to the point that he even stood up at one point and went, I really don't like you. It's like, that's fine, you know, I've got thick enough skin, and I don't— I'm not here to be liked. I'm here to help you, and you are going to do this. And it was all about making a phone call to someone, and he didn't want to make this phone call. But, you know, all credit to him, he got on his phone in front of me, contacted this guy, and long story short, this was a long, long-term friend that went back many, many years that he'd lost contact with and felt so guilty that he'd lost contact that it was too hard for him to then get back in contact.

Yeah.

But that guilt was absolutely eating him alive. I said, you just got to phone him. He phoned this guy. This guy picked up his phone literally within, you know, 2 rings. He was in the Southampton Hospital about to go down for a major cancer operation. Bloody hell, if that's not synchronicity. Yeah. So this guy then, you know, his long-term friend went down to his operation knowing that his friend was in his thoughts, and this client could say, I love you, mate. I missed you, and I'm going to be there when you wake up.

That's cool. That's cool as fuck.

You know?

Yeah, no, because that's the important stuff.

And then he left, you know, he left my home with this big grin on his face going, I feel so much better now because, you know, we're connected again.

And the consequences of not doing that and something going wrong are You know, every cliché in the book. Oh, you know, from I'll never forgive me, forgive myself, I can't undo, you know, and you end up living in the past.

Yeah, absolutely.

So another thing, because, um, so how'd— we never actually got onto how you got into the hypnotherapy side of it. Apart, we did say the— it was an extension to the toolbox that you thought you could use, but how, how are you able to use it?

Um, sorry, why do I use it?

Or— No, how are you able to use it?

Um, so one of the, the biggest misconceptions of hypnotherapy comes from, um, stage shows.

Yeah.

And that's what I hear so many times is people saying, oh, you're gonna make me cluck like a chicken. And it becomes a bit of a joke now. So, well, if you want to, there's the floor, get on with it, and then we can do some proper work.

Yeah.

So it's one of the things that I always go through when I first meet people is, yes, when people are on stage, they are hypnotized, because all hypnosis is is a different brainwave pattern that we're all in at the moment. So you've got 2 halves of your brain: the conscious mind, which is kind of largely located in the, in the bulbous front of our head, and the subconscious, which is lurking deep down in the back at the top of our spine. When both of those parts are busy, you're in what's called beta brainwave activity, and if you were to wire someone up to a brainwave machine, those waves would be very closely compacted, very up and down, so it looks really, really busy. That's beta. When you start to relax, so you may be, you know, chilling at home at the end of the day watching crap TV, you go into alpha, and that just means that both parts of those brains are just a bit more chilled. They've dropped down a couple of gears. It happens all the time. There's then theta and there's delta, and each of them are just getting— the brainwaves are getting quieter and quieter. Where we can do the work that is so powerful under hypnosis is by getting someone into theta brainwave activity. The most common time you see theta brain activity is in a toddler. So I can say to a 3-year-old, a man in a red suit is going to come down the chimney on Christmas Day and leave you presents. They go, brilliant! The fact that they haven't got a chimney, totally irrelevant. It's bypassed them.

Okay, there's a spoiler here for people if your kids are listening.

Yeah, oops, sorry. Um, so it's what I call sponge mode. Yeah, it's like the, the conscious mind, that rational intelligent part of you, has gone to sleep. The reason it's there in a 3-year-old is it hasn't actually developed yet, but, you know, bringing theta brainwave into adulthood your conscious mind has just kind of, you know, bowed out a little bit, which means the access to the subconscious is wide open. And it is, it's like that sponge mode. So it means, bringing it back to the stage show, if someone says cluck like a chicken—

Yeah.

The subconscious mind is actually really playful. It goes, yeah, I can do that! And so someone clucks like a chicken. They are not being manipulated. They are doing something of their own volition. And, you know, one of the most important things to recognize is with all of these stage shows, anyone that volunteers to get up on stage is already by definition an extrovert.

And they're already consenting. I don't think people understand that there's this kind of— sorry to cut you off there, but there's this kind of misunderstanding that on a stage show that they can make you do something if you don't want to.

Yeah.

And it's just very much—

but, you know, coming back to it, they, they are extroverts by definition of wanting to be in front of an audience. Yeah. In most stage shows, the ones that I've seen, you know, they might end up with a dozen, 20 people on stage. And what the hypnotist is very, very good at is whittling it down to the extreme of that extreme group.

Okay.

They will get the extroverts that are kind of off the scale extroverts, because that means that their willingness to do things is—

Half the act.

Off the scale, they are, yeah. And so it means that when they say cluck like a chicken or pretend you're having sex with a chair, whatever it may be, they're going, yeah, I'm happy to do that because—

I did it only last night.

Yeah, that's what I do every night. They're getting the feedback from from the audience that is ticking their box in terms of, you know, why they're there. There is, some people may be familiar with the name Derren Brown.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He is someone that has a foot in both camps. He does my kind of lighter work, but he also does the stage shows as well. He did a series on, I think it was Channel 4, a few years ago where he tried to either prove or dispel some of these myths around hypnotherapy. And the one that— the episode that really stuck in my mind is under very, very controlled circumstances, he was trying to persuade a guy to do an armed bank robbery.

Okay, I think I remember something about that in the news.

Yeah, and it was— I mean, you know, ethics of it, you know, people can come to their own conclusions on that one. But yeah, it was very, very controlled. And he would get this guy and he'd repeatedly You know, going about what he could do with this money and putting all of the suggestions in there. But every time he then went to actually do the bank robbery, he dropped the gun.

Okay.

Yeah, he never actually made it inside the door. He just dropped the gun because his core value was, this is fundamentally wrong.

Yeah.

And that's the most important thing to recognize is you, you know, No one, without using, you know, some serious drugs, can manipulate your core values.

Yeah.

And I, you know, one of the most direct experiences I had that, again, I was working with a guy, he wanted to give up smoking. And it turned out through a conversation that the reason he was smoking is it kind of appealed to his naughty boy part. He wanted to go, I can do whatever I want. He'd just come out of a very messy marriage, lived with his mum for a while. His mum wouldn't let him smoke. He got back on his feet, was in his bachelor pad, and he's like, I'm gonna smoke now and stuff everyone who's gonna stop me. And that was kind of the part that was motivating the behavior, but there was a stronger part of him going, yeah, but I really don't want lung cancer, mate.

Yeah.

And so he came to me, yeah, so, oh yeah, I want to give up smoking. So we can't— if we negate this part of him that really wants to do something naughty, the chances are his behaviour would sneak back in because it was a really, really strong voice in him.

That's probably the most relatable because, um, uh, I don't think I've smoked since you— I think I might have smoked a little bit since you've known me, but I have always considered myself a lifelong smoker. And even though I haven't smoked for several years now, it is literally a daily battle because I love it. I love, I love smoking and I miss it.

But—

I wrote— sorry, the reason I— there's a connection to this. The reason I know this so well is because I wrote about it in a blog many years ago, and it's because that smoker to me is John Wayne, is James Dean, is Marlon Brando. It was everything that I thought was cool as a kid, and every time I have a cigarette, I am kind of like James Dean. You know what I mean? That rebel without a cause. And it's— that was what I was always battling against.

Yeah. So, you know, the therapeutic tools that we used was all about bolstering that part of him that was going, no, I really don't want lung cancer. I really want to be fit and healthy and see my grandchildren grow up and all that kind of stuff. But actually, as I said, if we negated that part of him that wanted to be naughty, he was always going to have that internal battle going on. We wanted to really change the, you know, balance of power. And I said to him, you know, he's deeply hypnotized in a really sort of theater brainwave state. What is there something that you can do that is going to keep your naughty boy part happy that doesn't involve cigarettes? And he just grinned and went, yeah. And I said, do you want to tell me what that is? And he went, no. Fine. So, you know, and it wasn't for me to say, well, you need to tell me, he probably wouldn't have done anyway.

Yeah.

You know, I haven't fairly good idea what it was.

Yeah.

But, you know, so, you know, for me, that was real proof that he decided, even though he was deep, you know, in a deep trance state, he didn't want to share that information with me. And so he didn't. You can't manipulate someone to do something that they don't want to do. But more importantly, that's not what I want to do. I'm not here to manipulate someone. I'm not here to be entertained. I'm here to help someone make the changes that they want. Yeah, it's a completely different, you know, different avenue to go down. So, you know, hypnosis, yes, the stage shows, we in therapy start off from exactly the same point. You change the brainwaves, but then stage show goes right, it's all about entertainment, making people laugh. Therapy goes left, it's about working with that person to help them change their behavior.

Do you find with your therapy that it's more that more of your clients are extroverts or introverts?

Oh, good question. I think the clients that I see are pretty much a representative slice across society generally.

Okay.

Yeah, so, you know, I will see some people who are, you know, great extroverts I will see some people who are, you know, other end of the scale on introversion. And actually, it really doesn't matter either way.

No.

You are extrovert, it doesn't make you easier to be hypnotized. If you're introverted, it doesn't make it harder. Because, you know, like, like we've already discussed, it is just a natural function that your brain can go into from changing from beta, alpha, into theta that you do every day anyway. All I do is just teach you a process that gives you control of doing it.

And I take it this is a process they can then take home and use as part of their daily toolkit, sort of thing?

Just by doing it once in the first session, you learn how to do it. You can then do it. And it's a bit like, you know, learning to ride a bike. Yeah, you might be a little bit wobbly at first, and the more you practice it, the more you can do it easily, to the point that you jump on a bike without thinking about it. So I can get myself into really deep theta brainwaves within seconds. I've been doing it a long time.

Yeah, yeah, of course. And getting people through the door, like, because, uh, you and I've discussed this over the years, how attitudes are slowly changing and that there's different generations that are more, no, it's okay to actually go and see somebody because I can live a better life with some input from somebody. Where are you seeing the big differences, the biggest changes through generations, but still the generations— is there still a generation that's just like, let's just be stoic and stiff upper lip, who are harder to get through the door? Or has most of the barriers been broken down now?

I wouldn't say so much a generation. I still— I think there is still very much a gender difference.

Okay.

I think, um, Prince William is doing a great job with the campaign that he's running about, you know, it's okay to talk about your problems, guys.

Yeah.

That is, I think that is starting to make a difference. But I still see a lot of the men that I work with, and if I think back to when I first started my practice 10 years ago, oh God, I probably saw less than 10% men. Whereas now, I think last time I looked at the stats, it's about 35% male compared to female.

It's because you have a dog. Man's best friend and all that.

Yeah, that's the reason I give her really good pet food.

That's certainly it.

So I think it is changing. I guess the biggest change that I've noticed over those 10 years or so is more and more people are saying, I don't want to be drugged. Yeah, it's kind of like, I don't want— I know if I go to the doctors, and, you know, I don't want to sound negative against GPs, I've got a lot of friends who are GPs, they do an amazing job, but they don't have the time to do the work that I do. And that's often the, the GPs will— the tool that they have accessible to them is to give antidepressants.

Yeah.

is to give pharmaceutical drugs. Again, I'm not against that at all. If you've got, you know, an infection, have some antibiotics because it will help your body recover. If you've got depression, take some antidepressants, but then understand why did you get depressed in the first place. It's not about dealing with the symptom, look at the cause, and that's what the GPs don't have time to do. So yeah, I think that probably is the most significant change, is more and more people are saying, I don't want to take drugs or continue taking drugs. I want to deal with what's the root cause.

Yeah, because of course, there's the stigma around— there is a stigma around taking antidepressants, there's a stigma about going to GPs. And strangely, I— or strangely to me, I'd never actually considered that. Not as in going to the GP for depression, but actually, yeah, the benefits for visiting someone like, you know, actually coming to see you for somebody that has depression, is it's potentially an avenue off medication.

And even anxiety. So, you know, one of the symptoms of anxiety often is insomnia, and that becomes then a very quick downward spiral because if you have lowered resources because you're not sleeping well, you're more susceptible to anxiety, and so it goes on. And again, you know, Taking melatonin, sleeping tablets, whatever form, isn't a long-term solution.

No. And it's funny because— sorry, because like you said, you said something earlier about you can see cogs turning in my head. And is— yeah, because you're right that I find one of the things that is difficult for— I'm going to stereotype, and my apologies, but it's for men— is we like it to be practical and logical. But actually, when you, you break down the— get into the roots of what's causing your depression, it comes down to you're not sleeping, you're getting anxious. These all build into layers that end up going to a GP to have a tablet for a one-fix-all solution that is actually just a Band-Aid that doesn't solve anything. And there's— by coming to see you, there's these steps that can be taken and resources that you can cultivate for yourself, that means you actually might never need to go back to the GP and you might have a lifelong resource.

You know me, I spend a lot of time talking in metaphors, but it kind of helps people, I think, relate what we're talking about to something that they, they easily understand. And the one I use an awful lot, if you were to imagine a weed in a garden, yeah, if you've got the gardener in, the gardener could, you know, scythe that weed off at soil level and the gardener would look really pretty for a week or so, but then the weed starts to grow back, so you need to get the gardener in again. And if you want to keep the garden looking pretty, you have to keep calling the gardener in. Yeah, that's kind of what antidepressants do.

Right.

They keep the garden looking okay, but it's still not growing anything nice because that space in the garden is taken up by the, by the weed. So what I do, and, you know, using the tools of hypnotherapy along with all the other ones I've gathered along the way, is to dig the root out. Yeah, we go in with the trowel, and actually, more importantly, I don't go in with the trowel. I give the client the trowel because it's their root, and they pull it out, because when the root's out, you don't need the gardener anymore. And I think that's the big difference, is it's not about coping strategies. Coping strategies is bringing the gardener in. It's about understanding what's the root. And sometimes that root might have been seeded many, many, many years ago.

Yeah.

And it's just been laying dormant or really, really growing slowly until it pops its head above the sand or above the ground, and then when it gets exposure to the sunlight, it grows really rapidly. And I always, you know, when I talk about this metaphor, in my mind's eye, I can imagine a dandelion.

Okay.

For anyone that gardens, those dandelion roots tend to be very, very long and thin. It's almost like a virtual carrot growing down into the ground. It's very long, and where it first started, it's very thin, but as it grows up, it just gets stronger and stronger and stronger. And again, if you bring the gardener back and he just scythes the dandelion up, every time the dandelion grows back, it tends to be a bit bigger and a bit stronger.

Yeah.

That's the same with anxiety. You know, one of the clients that really sticks in my mind, she, she came to me because she'd developed a phobia of driving. And so her story came out that she'd got lost in the middle of winter, in the middle of Oxfordshire, where there was no street lighting and her phone battery died. So she had no way of bringing up Google Maps, she didn't know where she was, she couldn't contact her husband, and understandably she was terrified. So that part of your brain that's responsible for keeping you safe went, well, this is crap, so we're not doing that again. We're not putting ourselves— making ourselves this vulnerable again. You're not driving at night anymore. So every time she thought about driving at night, that part of the brain went, whoa, no, no, no, we don't go there, remember?

Yeah.

So she started to get very anxious and stopped driving at night. So that part of the brain went, whoa, this is working! I'm not vulnerable anymore. What else can I do to keep me safe? I know, let's make sure she doesn't drive anywhere that she's not familiar with, because that makes her even safer. So she then started to get anxious about going outside of her comfort zone, you know, and only being able to drive around her local kind of, you know, vicinities in the daytime. That part of the brain went, I'm really firing on all cylinders now. She's really safe. What can I do to keep her absolutely safe? I'll tell you what, don't drive.

Crazy, isn't it?

That's how the brain works. It's not there to screw you up. It's not there to destroy your life. It's there to keep you safe. It's the fundamental role.

To keep you alive.

The primary part of the subconscious mind is survival. It just adds 2 and 2 together and makes 6. And until someone comes along and says, no, 2 and 2 is 4, it will keep believing 2 and 2 makes 6.

That's good, I like that. I'm conscious of time because I know you're a bit busier than I am. One of the things— there's 2 more things I wanted to get in if it's possible— is could you just tell people, I think it's on Facebook where you have the— is it where parents follow your blogs and stuff for teenage anxiety?

Yeah, um, it's one of my passions. I love working with teenagers, but being a mum of 2 teenagers as well, I recognize actually it's quite tough on the parents. So whilst I work with teenagers one-to-one, I've got a— it's a closed Facebook group, and I work quite hard to make sure that anyone that asks to be a member, I kind of do as much due diligence as I can to make sure that they are a parent of teens, and we just talk about teen stuff, you know, with a focus on anxiety. You know, it all started around exam stress. That was my initial motivation, and it just escalated and grew and grew. So people will talk about self-harming, they'll talk about social media, low self-esteem, all of those kind of things that are, that are common Whilst I will share, you know, a lot of the techniques and tools that I have to try and again help other people, it's become an amazing forum where people can just say, look, I'm facing this challenge, has anyone got any ideas? And in fact, those posts get phenomenal, much more response than any of mine, but I love it. And even some of those responses are like, you know, I haven't got the answer, but I'm with you, I get you.

So it's very— that's because when you've discussed it with me before, there is that sense of how there's— it's not kind of you on a stage, um, presenting or dictating or explaining. It's— there's a real community where other parents are one, sharing problems, but also then, we did this and this helped.

Yeah, or it may just be, and as I say, some of the posts that I really value is where someone says, you know, my son's doing this, and, you know, 30 other people go, yeah, my son's doing that too. And so the person that originally, originally put up a post goes, I'm not a bad mum. Yeah, yeah, it's not me, this is what teenagers do, it's okay. Yeah, well, maybe it's not okay, but—

But like you say, there's 30 other parents experiencing the same thing. And it's just like, oh, I haven't failed. This is, this is what teenagers go through.

This is, you know, within the realms of normal.

Yeah.

And, and so yeah, we've got about, I think it's about 550 people in there now. And yeah, I'm really, I'm actually really proud of it to have created this forum where people can just go as a safe zone to talk about things. Every now and again, because I put quite a lot of effort into myself, I get a bit miffed and go, we'll put all these posts in and no one, you know, I might get 3 likes. It's not worth it. I'm wasting my energy. And so I'll have a little mini tantrum and go, right, I'm closing the group down. And then I get all of these emails and private messages going, no, no, we really rely on it. And I know we don't comment, but please don't. And so that renews my energy to do it again. You know, it has value. And how do you carry on putting that effort? Because people get something out of it.

And how do people find that Facebook group?

It's simply called Teen Stress 101.

Teen Stress 101.

Teen Stress 101. So if you look at— look for that group on Facebook, um, you will be asked to apply. So it's, as I say, and I will take a look at your profile. If I can't see any teenagers on there, then I might message you directly and just say, just verify for me That, you know, because obviously, sadly, there are some people in the world that try and do things for other reasons. Yeah, make sure that we're as protected as possible.

No, absolutely. I mean, that's— and that's teen stress 101, isn't it?

It is.

Okay, lastly, netball. Who do you play for?

I play for a club called Spire Reds, and actually, at my slightly maturing age now, I went back to playing last summer, and it was funny, some of the— so I put it in perspective, I am probably about 3 times the age of the youngest, the next youngest team member in my group. But I went on to court with the mentality of those 16-year-olds. And the umpire at the time was a friend of mine. At one point, she sort of grabbed me and went, Caroline, what the fuck are you doing? Calm down! Because in my head, I was like back to that. I'm indomitable. I can run everywhere and catch every single ball. So I couldn't move for about three days afterwards. So now I can't take a look at it. But my passion around netball is umpiring. So yeah, I started off the originally my daughter started playing and the club was looking for some help. I thought, well, if I'm taking her to and standing by the court. court every day or every match watching her. That may be something I can do. I know the rules, you know, I'm relatively fit. So I sort of said, yeah, I might be able to do that. And 4 years on, I'm the umpiring secretary, I'm a mentor, and working my way up the hierarchy to, yeah, to continue growing in that way as well.

What position do you play?

Well, on the basis that I'm 5 foot Not quite one. I'm only allowed to play in the middle of the court, actually, because I'm just not tall enough to be at the end. People just laugh at me. So I just run around a lot and get in people's ways. Yeah. But if there's anyone out there that's listening that's short, you can probably relate to— if you're short, what you do is you learn to jump.

Yeah.

Ironically, even though, as I say, I don't quite hit 5 foot 1 on the tape measure. I was my local county school's high jump champion.

Well, it's interesting you say that because, as you know, I'm only about 5'7, 5'8, and I always got to county every year for high jump.

Yeah.

I mean, I always, always won an area.

And I'm no good being in, in either end of the court in the D's at netball because, you know, you can't necessarily jump when you're, when you're marking someone or shooting, but yeah, you're running around in the middle of the court, you know, I can get, um, you know, interceptions and stuff like that purely because I put my frog head off and on and off we go.

So you're well into the— is it 4 years you said you've been umpiring now?

Yeah, yeah.

Given a choice, umpire or play?

It would be a tough choice, but I would come down on umpiring because that's where I can make the most difference.

Okay.

Yeah, so, you know, there wouldn't be a game if we didn't have umpires.

Right.

Um, and the quality— it's a bit like, you know, for the guys out there, there are so many armchair referees, but you know, if you put a crap referee on the field, the game doesn't go well.

No, it definitely doesn't. No.

You know, so by being a good umpire, I'm helping the standard of netball to be played to be better. And, you know, certainly when I umpire the women— so I umpire at sort of quite a high regional level— and, you know, the women will always start off in that first 5 minutes testing the umpires. How far can I push the rules?

Yeah.

And as soon as you start pulling them and giving them that kind of look, it's like, I know what you're doing, they kind of go, oh, okay, and the game just starts flowing much more smoothly. And I'm now sort of a— there's 4 kind of tiers of umpiring. I'm at tier number 3, or working at tier number 3, because that then allows me to start mentoring the juniors. And also, when I get this 3rd tier level, it means I can start becoming an assessor.

Okay.

So, in my 70s, I can still be doing that. So it means that my contribution to a sport that I've, you know, been playing since I was 8 Can continue.

So, so it's interesting, could you say, in my 70s, is, uh, so you— this is a determination for a lifelong passion?

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, whilst I can still, you know, stand and talk, there's no reason why I can't be helping the next generation of umpires develop too.

And is netball strong in the UK still? Because I remember years ago it was very strong. I don't know anything about it these days.

I wouldn't just say strong, it is thriving.

Okay.

It's absolutely thriving, it's fantastic, absolutely fantastic to see. It's a bit like, I think, rugby is going through something similar, that there's, you know, back-to-netball, there's walking netball, there's wheelchair netball. So really there is— and in fact I was reading something, there's a quarterly magazine that England Netball put out about netball for the deaf, And the blind and people with— yeah, can you imagine catching a ball when you're blind?

I just can't, that's just it.

Phenomenal, it's absolutely phenomenal. And, you know, for children that perhaps have some severe learning difficulties, they can get out and enjoy the sport. And it's one of the reasons that I love the sport, not just getting out and doing the running and all the things that exercise gives you in terms of again, mental health, let's not ignore that fact. You're part of a team, you know, and it's something that's, that's really interesting with netball, I find. There's only 2 people that can shoot for goals in netball.

Yeah.

But unless the other 5 players are doing their role, the ball's never going to get in their hands to allow them to shoot. And having that ability to work in different ways Being part of a team, when you see a team member who'd be having a mare of a day, pick them up, because if they become the weak link, the team falls apart. All of that stuff, that camaraderie and friendships off the court, that is just brilliant. So yeah, I think it started with the success of the England team, the Roses, when they did the Commonwealth Games, and a lot of people still have that moment where they scored the last goal in extra time to beat Australia, you know, it's just absolutely thrived and, you know, long may it continue.

So you're Spire Reds, is that correct you said?

Yeah, okay, fantastic team based in Salisbury.

Salisbury.

So we've got teams all the way from, well, you can start at any age, but the competitive teams start at 11 up through to under-16s, and then we've got adult teams. So really everyone who wants to play netball has an opportunity.

So if somebody is in the Salisbury area and they're interested, how do they contact?

If they just Google Spire Reds—

Spire Reds Netball?

Spire Reds Netball, probably, otherwise you might end up with the bus service. But, um, Spire Reds Netball, we have Facebook groups, there is a website, there's all the normal stuff.

Okay, that's cool. And if If you're outside of Salisbury, you know, who are the associations that you'd get in touch with to find out where your local netball is?

Yeah, if you go on England Netball, then I think they have a page there that is find your local team. But, you know, just Google is such a wonderful creature now. If you just do local netball, or, you know, netball in Herefordshire, or wherever you are, most of the teams now will have some form of website or contact page that you can just get in contact. So I would encourage anyone, even if you think, oh, you know, I'm unfit— doesn't matter, there's walking netball, brilliant way to get fit, you know. Or I'm feeling a bit lonely, I want to make new friends— go to a netball club. You've got an instant, you know, 10 other women that you're gonna— you're gonna be encouraging you, and you'll have that connection.

Okay.

And if you don't like it, fine. stop. Yeah, you don't know until you try.

And change is the new stability, as you said.

So, okay.

So just to round up, could you tell me a little bit about your book, Anxiety Alchemy?

Isn't it? Anxiety Alchemy? Yeah. Anxiety Alchemy is a book that I wrote a few years ago now. And it really puts a lot of the tools that I use into a usable form that someone can do on their own. So it kind of starts off with— it's best to think about one area of anxiety that you have. You know, it's not going to transform your anxiety, you know, general anxiety disorder, just by reading a book. But if you say, for example, okay, I have a phobia of dogs, which is quite a common one, And you just work through it with that phobia and learning how to use the tools. And when you feel that phobia releasing, you can then go back to the beginning and say, okay, that's worked, so now how can I apply it to the next thing? So, you know, it very much is a way of learning how to use some of the tools that I would use with you face-to-face, but you're doing it on your own just through learning. Reading the book comes to cover isn't going to make much of a difference.

Yeah.

It comes back to, you know, I can have a toolbox full of tools. In fact, I've got a saxophone in my bedroom that hasn't seen the light of day in 10 years. I can't call myself a musician because I don't bloody use it. So, you know, it's the same. You can read the book and if you, you know, you might learn one tool, you know, 3 pages of reading, the book down and use that tool for a couple of days, then pick the book back up, read the next few pages, learn the next tool, try that for a week. It's a real dip in and dip out, but I can say with absolute conviction the tools work.

Yes.

It's about your choice of whether you choose to apply them or not. It's very reasonable— readable. One of the things— it's funny, people often say to me whether they've read the book or blogs or whatever it may be is, when we meet you, Caroline, it's just like we read you. I don't know how else to communicate. I can't do posh. I try and do academic sometimes, it doesn't necessarily work. So how I write is how I talk. So when you're reading that book, it is like I'm talking to you. And so, you know, people that have got the book say, yeah, it's very digestible, very easy to understand. It's not academic, it's just very, very practical.

Cool. And your website is?

Website's very easy, you just need my name. It's carolinecavanagh.co.uk.

And I'll make sure there are links in all of the social media that we do. And, and that's, I take it, is a great place to one, sign up to your newsletter.

Yeah, there's, um, I send a newsletter out. The aim is every couple of weeks, doesn't always hit it, but that's my target. And in that I just share, so again, some of these tools. There's a link to at least one of my blogs and sometimes other people's that, you know, goes into things in more depth if you want to. There's a load of free resources on there, so there's an ebook that's got all of the, or a lot of the stress tools that you can download, and that's and other little exercises that I know are very, very powerful. Loads of case studies, because again, it's not just me saying this works. Go on and read and see what is possible, because you might find a case study on there that you go, wow, that's just like me.

Yeah.

So yeah, there's lots of stuff on there. And again, it just helps if you feel that you don't really understand much about hypnotherapy, the Fits on the page will help improve that level of knowledge so you can make an informed decision as to whether it's you or not, not an uninformed one.

Yeah, okay, right. I mean, I'm actually going to ask you, although I'm going to cut this for editing purposes in a second, we're going to say goodbye, then I'm going to ask you to hold on so I can talk to you about something else quickly. So yeah, big thank you for joining me today on my first ever—

Thank you for asking me, it's always It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

I, I, yeah, I actually didn't know who else to ask. I was just like, who, who actually might be— he might actually really screw this up, but it'll be all right, I'll go with it. So it's just like, Caroline will be the most understanding person I know. So, and, and that— so yeah, no, I genuinely, um, a big thank you. I really do appreciate you supporting me with this, uh, on what is my first ever podcast. So, hey, and that'll be where we cut that. At home, you might be able to talk about what's going on at work, or we work more closely together and I'll hold your hand in certain areas and, and bring them up to a level playing field.