Podcast with Mel Loizou where we talk about leadership of the mind

After a few weeks off, I'm so excited to be back on air today with the first episode of season 3, and boy is it going to be a corker of a conversation. I heard my guest speak recently, and as I was furiously trying to write down and capture all her amazing content, I was also thinking, I have to get this woman on the show because her message is such an important one. It's one that is important to every single one of us, but I thought it would have real resonance for those of us working in higher education, especially at this time of the year as we begin to recover from the start of session and students are settling into university life. Starting out her career in marketing, she retrained in 2011 as a clinical hypnotherapist, and since then she's been helping people understand how their own thoughts and behaviors create anxiety. She's also been helping them increase their mental resilience. This is going to be a truly fascinating conversation, and I cannot wait to dive in. So please welcome Caroline Cavanagh. Hi, Caroline.

Hi there, Mel. Now, Series 3, that makes me feel as if I'm some sort of, you know, Netflix hero. What are we gonna do?

I know, it's great, isn't it? It's so exciting. Season 3, here we come. Massive opening. Over to you. So as I, as I gave insight in that, that short intro, you and I actually both started out our careers, as we found out, in, in marketing. But then you moved into the world of hypnotherapy and helping people with anxiety. So perhaps the best place to start would be to understand a little bit about your journey and how and why you made that transition.

Yeah, and it's, um, it's actually quite a long story, so we might need series 4 here at this rate. I, like, like many teenagers, come to that kind of, you know, 16, 17, 18, um, do I really know what I want to do? Absolutely not. Um, and actually, at that age, I had some quite significant issues with anxiety as well. And whilst I did have a place at uni, it was anxiety that was one of the significant factors that stopped me from going. So I drifted, did a little bit in sales, really rubbish at selling, ended up doing a temp job in a company that was sort of doing databases, and that sort of drifted. I just drifted into marketing. But I'd always had an interest in psychology and why do people do what they do. And actually marketing is very much about that. It's about understanding why people behave in the way that they do and getting them to behave in a way that you want them as the company to do. And often buying things that they don't actually need. So that was kind of where I stayed for a number of years. And it was kind of okay. But that seed inside me of why, why do people feel the way they feel? Why do people behave the way they do? Was never really sated well enough. And I still remain curious. But the significant thing for me is in my early 30s, due to not looking after my mental health, I ended up in hospital. Not just once, but twice. And that's the real kicker, is I didn't even learn the first time. So it took the second time of me ending up with my mind literally saying, if you do not stop doing what you're going to do, I will stop you. And it did it in quite a significant way. And that, in, in the recovery process, led me to really think, okay, I now need to do something different, which was really the first step on this my equivalent of series 3. How am I going to now deal with my mental health differently? Why am I doing the things that I'm doing, as in running myself into the ground trying to make everyone else happy at my own detriment? Something that I'm sure a lot of women that are listening to this can resonate with. And that really led me on to looking into this more. And, you know, fast forward then deciding to become a therapist because by helping myself to have made some significant changes, and in reality they're actually quite easy. And so I can now always remain 1 or 2 steps ahead of everyone else and teach other people what I'm learning so they can get there very quickly too. And anxiety is, is such a powerful emotion. I said it, it's something that got me literally, you know, um, on my back in more ways than one, unable to do anything, to look after, you know, I had 2 children under the age of 2, unable to look after them because I was so ill, to now someone that genuinely rarely gets ill beyond COVID. I haven't had any form of illness in over 7 years, and that's not because there's anything special about me. It's purely because I have leadership of my mind, and your mind and your body cannot be separated. So when you have strong mental health, it is a major leader to having strong physical health too.

Gosh, there's so much to unpick there. But, but you use that phrase that was, for me, when I was listening to you speak, really made me sit up because you talked about having leadership of your mental health, having leadership of your fears. And I was just like, wow, I love this. I love this. So, so if you could tell us a little bit more about what you mean by having leadership of either your anxiety or your fears, or—

Yeah, anxiety, fear, they're all the same words. Um, you know, fear, it's a bit like the other 4-lettered F word that is banded around sometimes. It's socially unacceptable. So we've, we've used the word anxiety. And when people often say to me, I have anxiety, My answer is, yeah, good, you need it. Let's go back to that 4-lettered F word, fear. The role of fear is survival. As babies, we are born with 2 emotions, fear and love. Every other emotion that we now have as adults are derivatives of those 2 things. So if we didn't have fear, we would not survive. Survive. When people get to that point of, you know, I'm struggling with anxiety, which is what they normally mean by saying I have anxiety, it's because their anxiety has taken leadership of them. A part of their brain has become so overzealous at keeping them alive that they are perceiving risk everywhere, triggering that very basic fight-or-flight response. And that just leads to a whole chemical change in the body, which leads us to feeling those things like butterflies in the tummy, sweaty palms, racing heart, which in the short term, if you have got a genuine saber-toothed tiger in front of you, you need those chemicals to be able to run away or fight that tiger. But the, the slight physical, should we say, issue in it is that this part of the brain that runs the fight-or-flight response can't tell the difference between something that's in front of you and real and something that's kicking around in your imagination. So a thought will be enough to trigger that chemical reaction, that fight-or-flight response. And when that's perpetuated time after time after time, it becomes habitual, leading to chemical changes in the body, leading to the Issues that we now umbrella term anxiety.

Right.

Okay. Okay.

So, yeah. So for you, anxiety is a way that we— is a more comfortable way for many people to describe fear. That's what I'm hearing, which is a really interesting idea.

Yeah.

And in your experience, do you think that— I mean, I think that my personal opinion is that prior to COVID, we weren't as comfortable even talking about anxiety. But actually, you, you hear people talking about it a lot more now than you did prior to 2020.

I think that is fair to say. There's been a lot of work done, um, actually around men's mental health as well.

Mm-hmm.

And Prince William has done a lot with senior football players coming out and saying, yeah, I, I struggle with anxiety. So it's made it more socially acceptable to actually put your hand up and saying, I am struggling, which is a major, very positive leap forward. But now we've still got quite a long way to go to reframe this. Yeah, we all have anxiety because, as I said, it is part of that intrinsic survival instinct. But it's whether you can use that anxiety to allow you to grow, or whether anxiety is controlling you and stopping you from growing. So it really comes back to that leadership of the As opposed to the fear telling you what you can and can't do.

Okay, so I'm guessing most of us out there would go, yes, I want to know how to take leadership of, of my anxiety. And you hinted that actually it's— well, I know, I, I've heard you speak, you describe it as a very simple process. So what is it that you How, how do you help people manage, take leadership of their anxiety?

It's, um, it can be a very, very complex process depending on— yeah, again, anxiety can cover a huge plethora of, um, of situations from people through from very acute anxiety, which we often term in the word phobia, So, uh, the most common phobia in the Western world is that of spiders. So that real acute, I know that tiny little spider on the kitchen floor isn't going to help me, but I've still, you know, just broken the land speed record getting away from it. To someone that literally becomes housebound because everything outside of their comfort zone is fearful to them. And we use that word comfort zone to mean that I can do this comfortably. Therefore, by definition, everything outside of that is uncomfortable.

Hmm.

And coming back to this leadership, when you step outside that comfort zone, anxiety and all of those chemicals that are in your body, adrenaline, cortisol, are there to help you perform and be at your best. in this area that you're not familiar with. But the more you step into that area, the more your comfort zone grows. Hence, anxiety actually is there to facilitate your growth, not to keep you small. I love that.

What a reframe that is. That, that's fantastic.

And it, and it's very, it's very true. And I, you know, I know a lot of your listeners are involved in higher education. Um, so in those latter teenage years, early adult years, there's an awful lot of stepping outside your comfort zones. You know, GCSE is the first real serious exams that you have. Going on to A-levels, a massive step up in the academic, um, pressure that you're under. Do you go to university? Don't you? My daughter goes to university tomorrow. So bless her, you know, that's a massive leap for her. She's effectively leaving home. Yeah.

Yeah.

And yes, I'm sure she will bring her washing back at times, but she will never come back to live at home in the same way that she has done for the last 18 years. So she is taking another massive step outside of her comfort zone. And tomorrow morning she will be feeling anxious. But what those feelings inside of her will help her to make that step and to stay in that unfamiliar place until it becomes familiar again. Yeah. Yeah. So again, anxiety is, is with us. And it's whether, I mean, you know, she's got a mum called me. And so she understands that the feelings that she's got, she's like, okay, I know I'm scared, but I know why I'm scared and I'm going to push through it and it's going to be brilliant.

Yeah.

Um, whereas for other people, that anxiety, the message that they're getting is anxiety is bad, you know, stay within your comfort zone. Then that becomes the comfort zone. I would say for a lot of people, it isn't just a comfort zone, it's actually a straitjacket. And it's quite uncomfortable because it's stopping them, it's inhibiting them doing things that they want to do.

Yeah, yeah.

And I've just realized I haven't even answered your question. So the first step—

No, so my next question was going to be, how do you loosen—

come on, Mel, just bring me back to point.

It's fascinating anyway, we get there eventually.

So one of the, one of the first things that, that I do or help people to understand is how their minds are actually working. So we talk an awful lot more about, you know, the, the role of the mind, the role of fear, and the fact that you have 2 parts of your mind. The conscious mind, which is in the sort of frontal lobes in the, in your forehead above your eyes, that part of the brain is rational, logical, deductive, live. But then you have the subconscious part, which is at the rear part of the brain, sort of where your spinal column comes in, which is irrational, illogical, and immature. And it's that part of the brain that is running the fight or flight response. So when we are in that fight or flight, that anxiety mode, we are being operated by a 4-year-old.

Yeah.

Which is why we often do things that when we look back on it and go, Why on earth did I do that? So one of the first things that you can do to help gain leadership of your mind is bring that conscious, rational, logical part of your brain back onto the table, you know, into the game, as soon as you recognize those feelings of anxiety coming up. And the easiest way to do that is to ask yourself, is what I'm scared at? Is the anxiety I'm feeling at the moment in reaction to something real, or is it imagined? And this is what is called clinically a pattern interrupt. It's just changing that thought process, and just by asking yourself, is it real? Is there a saber-toothed tiger in front of me, or am I feeling anxious because I'm worried about the exams that are 3 weeks away? As soon as you recognize actually it's something that's 3 weeks away, you've already shortened that pattern of the fight or flight response because your intellectual mind has come back on board and answered, it's not real. You've changed the how your brain is working and you have got a little bit of reins of control of how your brain is working now.

Yeah.

And the more you do that, The quicker you start to realize that so many things that you worry about triggering that anxiety isn't real. Yeah. And for anyone that, that has sort of phobias, or like the spider phobia, I know you nodded yourself there. Do you know yourself after you've run away that that little spider doesn't harm? It can't. It cannot. There's no tiny spiders in the kitchen in the UK that is going to give mortal damage. But your subconscious mind is in leadership at that point. But as soon as you're able to go, can this hurt me? You've given that little window for your conscious mind to come on board and go, no, of course not. Therefore, you change your, your relationship with that fear. Yeah. Yeah.

And you put distance between it, don't you? In some ways, just by asking that question, Is this real or am I imagining it? In some ways you're giving yourself a break rather than that immediate knee-jerk reaction.

You're absolutely right. And I say that the clinical term is a pattern interrupt. You're just causing that break in a natural flow of things that would otherwise happen. Yeah. And, you know, it, it's really powerful. And that break can be done in a number of ways. So sometimes I say to people, literally just ask yourself that question. You can feel your hands getting sweaty or your heart racing and just going, why am I doing this? What am I reacting to? Or for others, it may be— I've taught people to like physically take a step back, and that becomes a physical pattern interrupt. It might be just take a really deep breath.

Mm-hmm.

And in that breath, again, neurologically, there's something that happens inside your mind that allows that conscious control to, um, to get a foot back in the door. So there's a number of things that you can do, um, and they all work into bringing the conscious mind back into the game. So you have got the rational, mature parts making the decisions rather than the 4-year-old.

Yeah, love that. So that for you is, is the first step in taking leadership of, of your mind.

Yes. I mean, I, I find that, you know, in the— I've been doing this work for 12 years now, and that has become the most concrete foundation that we start from. There's, there's many other things that you can do, but unless you can get your conscious mind back into the game and start to have that leadership of how you're using your mind, all of these other wonderful tools that are available it's like building the house on sand.

Mm.

It's never going to be as secure. This is the rock. This is the bed that you can then start to build on those and go, okay, yes, perhaps this risk is real. So one of the stories that I shared in, in the talk that you heard is I worked with a client who, um, was the victim of an armed robbery. But she was able to take, uh, make a decision that I would propose actually kept her alive, stopped her from being probably raped if not killed. You know, as an armed gunman came into her bedroom.

Yeah.

Because she had leadership in her mind, brought the conscious mind back into the remit and said, what's the best way to deal with this situation? Give the robber what he wants, the cash out of the safe.

Yeah.

Whereas her mum lay in the bed beside her, absolutely paralyzed with fear. fear, not being able to move. You know, we, we talk about the fight or flight response. It's actually fight, flight, or freeze. Freeze being the most primitive of those 3.

Hmm.

But her mum, who hadn't got leadership of mind, became completely disabled. Whereas my client, because she'd learned to do, you know, had really strong leadership of her mind, consciously thought, okay, what is the best thing I can do in this situation? When, when I do, um, all of my speaking, I do get anxious before because we— a natural fear for most of us is the fear of making a fool of yourself, you know, forgetting your words, being an idiot. But I can recognize that, yes, that adrenaline in my system is also going to help to perform better.

Yeah.

It's going to heighten my senses. It's going to make my brain more alert. And I will give leadership to that alertness to perform the best that I possibly can. So I know that when I go onto stage and my palms are a bit sweaty and I'm feeling a bit nauseous, I actually say to myself, thank you. Thank you for creating this internal environment that's allowing me to perform in 6th gear rather than 1st gear.

Hmm.

And anyone that walks onto stage or, you know, goes into an exam in 1st gear isn't gonna, well, isn't gonna perform.

Yeah.

So hence anxiety is a good thing. It's learning how to use it.

Yeah. So for you, once, once you have identified whether it is real or imagined, what is, what's the next step in the process?

So once you become familiar with, okay, this is a real risk, this is just my imagination, in which case, you know, I can deal with that imagination and dissociate from on it, it creates a much more solid grounding for the perception of risk. So we've just touched on, you know, the comfort zone. Outside the comfort zone, there is risk because you are not familiar to it. Therefore, the further you step outside of the comfort zone, the higher the risk.

Mm-hmm.

So you then become more aware of, do I want to take a baby step into that comfort zone, which is absolutely fine? Am I going to take a moon-sized leap, which again is absolutely fine, but it is going to be more costly to you in terms of the fear that you experience?

Hmm.

Yeah, but the reality is the more you step outside of your comfort zone, the easier it becomes to step outside of your comfort Yeah, and there's a lovely little model that I share with people. If you think about a comfort zone being like a metre by metre square box, if you step outside of your comfort zone and change it to 2 metres by 2 metres, that's actually quite a big step. You've increased from 1 metre to 2 metres, that's 100%. It's a big deal. But your comfort zone is now 4 metres. So it's grown significantly from where it was. You then stay in that comfort zone for a little while until you go, oh, what's the other side of this? So you may then take another meter step. So it's the same size step as the other one, but now to go from 2 meters to 3 meters, proportionally, that's only 50%.

Hmm.

Yeah, and you've now got a 9-meter square box. Then to go from 3 meters to 4 meters, still a meter step, but that's now— God, my maths— 33% growth. 4 meters to 5 meters, only 25% growth. But each time the step is exactly the same size.

Yeah.

And people often say to me, oh my God, Caroline, you don't get nervous about anything. Yes, I do. But my comfort zone is about 29 meters square now.

Yeah. So for me to go from 29 to 30, So actually, like most things, taking that very first step is, is, is the biggest and most challenging one. And, and the one that I guess is where you help people the most.

Absolutely. And the wonderful thing is we have all made the biggest steps outside of our comfort zone. or made, you know, several significant steps outside of our comfort zone before the age of 13.

Hmm.

You know, walking. Walking is the most difficult thing you ever learn to do, and most people have knocked that on their head by 18 months. Yeah. You then at some point will be left alone, either in a preschool, nursery, childminder, or primary school. That's one heck of a comfort zone change.

Mm.

You know, from primary school to secondary school, from secondary school perhaps to sixth form, from sixth form to uni. These are all significant, massive steps that we all, with the odd exception, do. And again, when therapeutically you can help someone understand you have stepped outside your comfort zone so many times Now, this proportionally to what you've already done is a drop in the ocean. And again, that just change of perspective, people go, oh yeah, I can do this. But suddenly something that was like that 1 meter to 2 meters vast was like, oh, I'm ready already at 8 meters to go to 9 meters. I can do that.

Yeah. And everything as you're talking, everything that you're saying is taking sort of fears, anxiety, words that, that I think often have a very negative connotation, or they do, and actually spinning it, aren't you? And flipping it so that it, it actually becomes very positive. And you look at everything that you've done in order to be able to overcome Whatever it is that is sat in front of you.

Yeah. And this is yet another way of giving leadership to your mind. Within that 4-year-old part of the brain, there's what I call the database. It's a part of your brain that stores every memory experience you've ever had. And it's like, it makes Google look like a drop in the ocean. But it's that receptacle that our brain is using all the time to say, have I done this before? What was the outcome? Was it good? Should I change something?

Mm-hmm.

When you learn to really access that and use that and go, actually, I have done this so many times before, it becomes much easier to do. So again, it's just another way of using what you already have in your mind. But schools don't teach you this.

Yeah.

You know, mental health is still, um, such a minor element of the national curriculum. So children are not taught how to give leadership to the mind, how to access that database, how to draw on things. And there's another lovely technique that is so powerful but so simple, and it's called Flip It. So when your brain asks you a question, when you're outside of that comfort zone and that survival instinct is going, what if this all goes wrong? What What if I do make a complete wuppet of myself? What if everybody hates me? What do you notice about those questions? They're all negative.

Yeah.

Yeah. And what the brain will do, what the subconscious mind does, it will answer whatever question you give it. So if you say to it, well, you know, what if I, what if I don't make any friends at uni? Well, you'll be really lonely and then your depression and then well, you'll probably die. Yeah. Okay, I'm being a little bit facetious. Um, you know, obviously there is a serious element to that, but that's the pattern, the sort of pattern the brain goes down. You give it a little carrot and it's gone off and created a complete garden. And so the leadership again comes into phrase as soon as you recognize that you are entertaining those negative questions, just flip them because your brain doesn't care what is being asked. So what if I don't make any friends? What if I do? Well, if you do make loads of friends, I'll be really popular and blah blah blah, and off it goes down that track.

Yeah.

Yeah. What if I make a complete fool of myself? What if you don't? And so you're just again giving leadership to your mind by deciding what questions you are asking Asking it, and your mind will happily toddle along and follow.

Yeah, such fantastic tips. And I know that they're just a small sample of, of the process that, that you have. And you've written a book?

I have, yeah. It's called, um, Anxiety Alchemy, um, because I mean, it is— I can't take credit for it. Someone gave me the idea because they said anxiety, fear is like a really heavy feeling, just like lead, whereas confidence is really light and bright. So it's just like, aha, I think someone's created a purpose for this, haven't they? Let's use the alchemy. So yes, it, it's a process that really takes you through how to transition from that heavy Um, debilitating in some ways, hard emotion through to something that is, you know, bright and light.

Okay, brilliant. I'm sure people will want to find out more, so I will put the, the link to it in, in the show notes.

Thank you.

So from your own personal perspective then, when have you had to dive deep I think the—

probably there's a number of times, I think, like many of us had. But I think the hardest time for me was I had a big brother whom I was very close to who had a significant brain injury. My parents couldn't deal with it, so they stuck their head in the sand and basically ignored him. And so me in my early 20s was suddenly having to deal with a severely mentally ill older brother. And that really required, um, a lot of deep diving to understand the emotions that I was going through so that I could be the best form of myself to help him.

Hmm.

And again, this is something that I often, um, when I'm talking with clients, is if someone's in a hole, as my brother was, if you jump into the hole with them, that's 2 of you in a hole.

Yeah.

Yeah. My job, my job as a therapist, as a, as a speaker, is to stay at the top of the hole and help you help them to make their way out by saying, right, reach for that handhold, put your feet there. Because when someone learns to climb out of the hole themselves, there will be other holes that come up in the future. You've then got the skills to learn to get out yourself.

Yeah.

So when my brother ended up in a very deep, very dark hole, I found myself falling into it too. So I had to dig deep to climb myself out first so that I could then help him to climb out.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that that is such an important message because I think that we know it mentally. We can, we get that. We, I've, so many people talk about it, but actually doing it is, is the challenge, isn't it? Because sometimes it is just easier to just jump in. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's, um, you know, I often hear that thing about, uh, you know, on an aeroplane, put your own oxygen mask on before you do the others. That's the same with mental health as well. You know, by investing in getting your mental health, your leadership of your anxiety, your fears strong, you are then better resourced to help others.

Yeah.

And that's true, you know, of parents, of educators, you know, be the role model that all the people in your class are looking up to. If you can demonstrate the leadership of your mind, they pick it up by osmosis.

Yeah. Yeah. And having spent many years in universities, I can tell you that it's not just your daughter that will be feeling the anxiety. Normally, it is the parents. And actually the parents are far worse often than the students because they're just excited about the future and what it may bring. But for us as parents—

It is something I'm very mindful at the moment because I'm thinking, you know, I have brought this gorgeous woman up for 18 years and felt responsible and looking after her. I, you know, she is so ready to go and I'm so proud of the person that she's become. And so yes, there will be tears being shed tomorrow. Yeah. But I will be looking after me. Yeah. Because actually, by me falling apart, that's not helping her. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's absolutely what needs to happen. Because then we can be there for them. Which is why today you see me in a different environment. And you can probably hear the sirens going. Because I'm in London in my daughter's flat. So I, I'm there as well. I understand this. So we've dived deep. When have you felt like a fish that climbed a tree?

I love this expression. And when, when you asked me that question the first time around, the, the immediate thing that, that came into my head is, um, I used to play netball quite a lot and I, I now umpire, but every now and again I get pulled back onto the netball court. And, you know, I am the other side of 50 and most of the netball team are below 20. So I go back onto the netball court and my head, I'm 16 as well. And I kind of look around and I go, oh my goodness. I'm older than most of their mothers. That is a real— like, I am in this pond with all these glorious, gorgeous fish, and I'm like a kind of, you know, I don't know, what's a carp or something? You know, one of those really kind of ugly things going, I'm such a fish up a tree here.

Oh, but that's amazing. And, and that's the beauty of it, isn't it? Because, you know, young, old, But to be there in that environment, sharing that experience, I think is, is amazing. Yeah, it's wonderful. I love it.

Yeah. My body doesn't love it the next day, but at the, at the time, it's quite fun.

Fantastic. Oh my goodness. I've such— it's been so wonderful chatting with you. I love so, as I said, you know, right at the beginning, I, I was writing furiously down, you know, there's so much leadership of your mind. Anxiety is just a nice word for fear. Flip it. Is it— is your anxiety real?

Or imagine—

just so many golden nuggets that, as you say, are simple, but the application, the application of them, sticking to that, reminding ourselves that this is what we need to do. And, and the best one for me is that our comfort zone is like a straitjacket. I can almost see that. For me, that creates such a beautiful visualization. Thank you so much.

My pleasure.

For sharing that. So if people listening to this think, yes, I need to get you in to speak to my students, speak to my team, speak to me, how can they get in touch with you?

The easiest way is probably through the website, um, which is easy to remember because it's just my name, carolinecavanagh.co.uk. Um, and on there, there's pages specific to teenage anxiety, there's pages specific to, um, inviting me as a speaker and what I can do to wider audiences, through to the sort of one-to-one therapeutic work. And on the contact page, just click a little button and we can straight away get into some dialogue.

Okay, can I ask you to repeat that now? I don't know whether it's my Wi-Fi or yours, but it went a bit funny, so I'm going to ask you to repeat it. I'll ask the question again so that we can redo it because that's really important And I don't want that bit missed.

So what did I say? Can you remind me?

It's your name. Start with that bit. We'll just, we'll just go from there. So, so if people want to get in contact with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Probably the easiest way is through a good old website, and it's an easy website address to remember because it is just my name. So it's carolinecavanagh.co.uk. And on there, there are all sorts of, um, specific pages, so you can really get very quickly to what is of interest to you. So if you're worried about your teenager, for example, there's a specific page on teenage anxiety. If you'd like to talk to me about coming in and doing a talk to your audience, to your class, then there's a professional speaking page, uh, lots of information. information and lots of resources as well that you can download, both PDFs and videos that you can access to get a bit more of a feel for me, the work that I do and how I work. But the probably easiest thing is if you're interested, just go to the contact page, click on the Let's Talk, and we can arrange to have a conversation. And I'm very happy to have a conversation. complimentary chat with anyone just to really discuss whether the work that I do is the right one for you.

Yeah, and I would recommend people do that for sure. So it just leaves me to say a massive, massive thank you. I hope tomorrow goes well for you and your daughter. Before you go, what final words of wisdom would you like to leave people with?

I think if there is nothing else that you take from this conversation at all, take this one thing, that anxiety is a good thing. You just need to learn to lead it.