Burnout Warning Signs Business Leaders Miss (Until They Crash)

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We may have missed a week in terms of an episode. Yes, there was a good reason for that. I happen to get sick. Chris is just over here nodding. And I think a big part of that is because she's seeing me also in a bow tie for the first time. For those of you that are so confused, Right. She's. I missed time. I show up wearing a bow tie. So what are we going to talk about this week?

Burnout.

Yeah. Because that, that, that, that may have been an issue. Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the business fix. I think this is going to be a different piece for you than it is for me.

Maybe.

So let's talk about, like, my life. Obviously, we're going to dive a little bit into the what the hell happened with my life and why we missed a week.

Yeah.

Yes, we are. We are not invincible. We're not infallible.

No.

What's been going on with your life?

I mean, we're done with travel season, so I'm happy with that. Yay. Now it's time to buckle up, go through the holidays, have a good time, watch our daughter apply to 22 colleges. Great.

Well, you're watching that at least.

Watching it or what? We're watching. We're watching her get her acceptances, watching her get different award letters. The ups and the downs of this is good. This is bad. You know, it's. It is.

So she's almost getting that piece of business ownership right now. She, like the highs and lows of, like, you got accepted but not to the program you wanted.

Exactly. Or this is what we're going to offer you. It's not even close to what you probably want. So you don't have to get loans or deal with a bank of mom and dad, all those things. So. Yeah.

Yikes. Yikes. Yeah.

She's almost too adulting. So it's. Yeah.

Yeah. Buckle up, kid. You got a lot of buckling in to do.

Yeah.

So I'm hoping that we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about my recent burnout.

Yes.

And I'm hoping this is a good reminder for you not to go down the same path that I have recently gone down.

Oh. I think every time I watch someone crash and burn, I remind myself, don't do that again, because I've done it before.

I know you have. And that's why. That's why we're going to talk about it in the way we're going to talk about it today. Because when we talk about burnout is we are going to talk about you from a personal standpoint in how to prevent it. We're going to talk about pajama Day.

Yes.

I'm hoping we talk about pajama Day because you've mentioned that. You've mentioned that even recently.

Yes.

I've been pretty good overall about spotting it in employees and figuring out when that's coming. Can't figure it out my damn self. It's always easier to fix other people than yourself.

Always.

Yeah, no, I'm. I'm so good at that. For me, the story for me was, is obviously October's busy month for us. We've got a number of big projects that come due. Like, right at the first of November, 10,000 small businesses summit in D.C. just happened. I was asked to. I was going to cancel the trip. I was asked to possibly introduce a speaker, which was like, holy cow, this is big. This is the largest gathering of small businesses in D.C. ever.

Yes. Huge deal.

Right. So I'm thinking of canceling the trip. And then like, hey, would you want to do the thing? And me being the attention whore that I am, I am like, yes. And of course I see the opportunity.

Absolutely.

So I say yes. And then I end up basically speaking on a. In a breakout session. They called me a panelist. It was a panel of one. I was the panel, but about AI and automation in the business. So. Awesome.

Yeah.

Came home, didn't feel great. That spiraled down quickly until I ended up in the er. I have a very low heart rate and a very high lung capacity. Naturally. Genetically gifted that way. And they're like, okay, so you don't. We don't think you have pneumonia. Just a really bad cough. And then they X ray my lungs and they're like, oh, you have pneumonia.

Congratulations.

Right, Congratulations. Here's your prize. Here's some more antibiotics. But, yeah, so that was my. I mean, I, I literally, I saw. I. I knew I was driving into a brick Wall.

And you did it anyway.

Yeah.

100. Well, sometimes you can't help it.

And that is. That is my. I knew, like, every year I set myself up. I don't want to say for failure in October, but I set myself up on like, we can do this. We can do this. We can do this, we can do this. And then that one thing gets added.

Yeah.

And suddenly, I mean, it's Jenga. You pull that one brick out of the bottom, and suddenly the fan needs a pressure Washington. Um. So, yeah, that is. That is the. The big piece about that. This. To me, I mean, I've never experienced burnout this hard. And it's funny. Just the look on your face is like, oh, fricking amateur. I know. That's exactly what's going right through your head, you amateur. Come on, step it up.

No, it's not what I'm saying. I'm just like, wow, that's. That. That's not bad.

I know. And, I mean, I've burnt out in other ways, but I. I'm pretty good about realizing where that step is. And I would equate it to some of the athletic things that I've done where I'm like, oh, I know if you step over that line, it goes downhill really quickly. So to kind of traverse that line. Okay. To me, this was not, obviously, just about feeling tired. I ended up, you're legit sick at the hospital. And it wasn't just like, they don't feel good. They're like, no, you got issues, boy.

They put you in t. Time out. Right.

Medical professionals told me, I have issues. Not. This is physical, not mental. We already know the mental piece. That's for you.

Yeah.

You've been at burnout a lot.

Yeah. Multiple times. A few times.

A few times. I mean, sometimes you got to slam your hand in the door. A few times, you do. Oh, that hurts. You've managed. You now have pajama days. We talked about that. Like, you're like, this is a pajama weekend.

Yes.

I am doing nothing. Nothing is opening. As business owners, and this is the tough thing. We are, like, I feel responsible for everyone that works for me.

Yeah.

In many cases, I am. I feel less responsible for myself than I do my employees and what they're doing, which is a tough thing. How do you say. How do you look to. To realize that. Okay, what are you looking for when it comes to burnout? What's some of the telltale signs that a business is thriving but the owner is running on fumes? Because to me, I was like a 15 year old Hyundai with 200,000. Every light on the dashboard was on. The check engine light, the low oil, the overheating, all those lights were on. And I'm like, ask her, keep driving.

We'll just drive home, right? We'll make it.

We'll make it home. So give me your take on the big picture here. Like what are some of these warning signs and how not to step off that cliff?

Yeah, so few things. So you got when thriving looks like withering. Because that's the other part is sometimes people think like, oh, everything's going great for you and like on the inside you are just dying. Yes, yes, absolutely. So the first thing I would say is that emotional numbness doesn't scream at whispers. So burnout oftentimes whispers to you first and if you miss those warning signs, like the first check engine light and you're like, eh, it'll turn off, they'll tape over it. It's no big deal. So you've got to pay attention to those things. So a few things that can kind of give you that indication, detachment from winds. You're like, yeah, that was good, but we got more stuff to do. Or it was good, but it wasn't good enough. So detachment from it. Like you don't celebrate another one's when you. I mean for me it's snapping over small stuff. So you've seen the memes of the. Like the person that's trying to throw the garbage can and he gets stuck and then he just starts banging and then rips the mailbox and throws everything. I mean like, so there's that scheduling yourself into oblivion. Meaning I don't want to have to think about some of the things that I'm dealing with. So instead I'll just burn myself out by over scheduling myself. So those things. So detachment from your wins, snapping over small stuff, scheduling yourself into oblivion. Those. That's burnout. Wearing a productivity badge. That's. I am going to continue. I was gonna say, do you feel seen?

Yes and no on some of that. I'll revisit some of this in a minute. But yes, I like it.

Yeah. Some other things for me, tears for inconvenience is a good telltale sign that there's something going on with me. Everything's going great and I'm in tears in my office over something really small. I have burnout or I'm getting close to it. Another one is I will when I start losing things, like if I lose like the major credit card or debit card that I run my life with. That's. That's a telltale sign that I am. I'm reaching burnout because I've put it something. My mind is moving too fast and I can't figure things out. Another one that I would say is when I say something isn't awful, if you hear me say, oh, that's not awful, like more than two times and in a day, that's a telltale sign because I'm starting to just tell myself I can keep doing it. It's not awful. It's fine. I'm not going to die. And then there's always the physical symptoms of burnout. These ones are probably a little bit easier. Headaches, caffeine consumption. My caffeine consumption goes way up. If I'm drinking caffeine after 5 o' clock in the afternoon, it's not that time, Josh, I can still have this. Leave me alone. Don't go there. The eye twitch. I know for me, like, over tired, like, don't have not getting enough sleep. Burning candle at both ends. I get a twitch in my eye. I just need to lay my head down. That, like, thought, like when you're in a zoom meeting or you're in any type of meeting, you're like, if I just put my head down, if I close my eyes really slowly, like, there's moments, those are those. If you're doing a lot of those things in tandem, you're getting close to burnout. If I can't wait for the weekend to get all this other stuff done, that's another one.

It's funny as you go through these and I. What's really interesting about this, and this is something that I kind of want to, like, dive into a little bit. Emotional numbness.

Yeah.

You know me well enough to know I'm amped up about everything, but I don't get emotional about many things. So that one, it's one of those things where, like, if I'm kind of emotionally numb no matter what, all the.

Time anyway, then that one's not going to be a good telltale sign for you.

Right. And it's so funny though, because there's a few of those, like, detachment from the winds, I don't win. Well, something isn't awful. Okay. The physical signs for me were the ones that really crept up.

Huh.

I no longer looked forward to working out in the morning. I missed like a week's worth of workouts. And I mean, I'm religious about that. Yep. That is. That is my time. That is my thing. I Started not looking forward to. I mean, I started looking forward to after the busy period.

Yeah.

But not any things. It was just after the busy period. There wasn't like, hey, we've got a trip, or we've got something coming on. It's just, get me the hell out of the woods. So those were the things that, for me, were the bigger markers. It's interesting. And to me, it's the. How it looks different.

Yeah. Burnout looks different from almost everybody. They're all different.

Oh, I'm sure.

Yeah.

It's the. For me, though, I love how this is a. Like, I. I wasn't even thinking of these things until you mentioned them. Like the tears for inconvenience. Not much of a crier. No, I didn't think you'd expect me.

No, I wouldn't expect you to. And I'm not generally, either. But if that happens, you know. Yeah. If I'm laying in my office on the floor in tears, that. Okay, we might need to take a break.

Yeah. No, that definitely sounds like that. Holy cow.

It.

Like I said, it's just that it's those differences, those vast differences. But to me, the physical signs are what really I. And I mean, I knew it.

Yeah.

Like I said, head straight for that brick wall. What, like, as we get more successful.

Yeah.

That drives addictive. Like, I.

It does.

It is a little bit of a success. And you're like, oh, I can keep doing this.

Right.

If I made $10 doing this. If I do it twice, I'll make $20.

Yes.

And it's never usually the case, but. So speak to that success and management of that. Like, how do you. How do you look at that?

Yeah. I think for. For one, it's. It's knowing that the higher you climb, the bigger you get, the more success you have, the more it's about managing your energy than it is about doing all the things. Because you're working on building a system, you're working on delegating. It's about really building the toolbox that you have in your resilient operating system so that you can do other things. Because, you know, rest is a leadership skill. I know you may not think it is, but it is.

I'm not David Goggins, but in the same sense, I.

Well, and as entrepreneurs, we do that. We do that because we just think, I have to stay busy. My worth is tied to this. And the other part, and I would say this is something that's really important, is I used to think that taking time off meant that I was letting people down, meaning like I have to be superwoman. And because of that, because I felt like I had to do all of those things. Let's see, I've had horrific physical injuries because I wasn't paying attention when I was supposed to be paying attention. I almost burnt my house down. I mean, it's not helpful. So now I know that when I step away and I'm modeling rest and I'm modeling how not to not be burnt out, I'm also modeling sustainability for other people. So it's really important. I mean, you understand rest is a leadership skill. And I treat routine self care like a board meeting. I'm not going to skip it at this point because I know if I skip too many things, I'm going to wind up out for a week or two weeks or three weeks. And the ability for me to just maintain myself, you know, do that routine maintenance like we're supposed to do on our cars, not ignore all the warning lights. It's important. So the things in resilient operating system, we talk about mindset, building our interpersonal effectiveness, having a what else that drives us beyond what we do day to day. I think it's really important. I think if you have a routine, it's great. I don't think you should live and die by your routine completely. You've got to give yourself some flexibility. And I know that sometimes we, we have disagreements on professional development. But for me, professional development is another way to energy manage. Because you're getting new tools, new resources. You're also forcing yourself out of your business so other people have to do some of that work for you.

I mean, it's a source of frustration.

I would say it can be. But you can't lead well when you're running on fumes. No, you can't. And your resilience isn't in how much you do, it's really in how well you recover from things. So pajama days, delegation, going to therapy, occasionally having a clear what else? Learning how to model the behavior that you probably should have in someone who rests. That's really my recipe for now.

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I'll give you a few seconds to go to the website while we get ready to get back to the show. I, I, I love the rest is a leadership skill and it's funny because it is that thing that we need to work on and we need to be intentional about. We are, we are always asking people that work for us that work around us to be intentional about things.

Yes.

Do the right thing. Do the right thing at the right time. Make sure you're thinking about it all this other thing and then we don't do that ourselves. The nice, the difficult piece to that is is at 5 o' clock most of them, they're like, okay, they can go home and not think about it.

Yeah.

Whereas for us we have to be intentional about clearing that out of our head.

Yes.

To be like, okay, let's actually do something else. Let's go.

Yeah, let's do the other things.

Oh, 100%. 100%. I also like the routine self care like a board meeting. That's a great way.

It's not negotiable and you just, it.

Just has to be scheduled because once again, like if you look at my calendar, if there's an empty spot, sure, I'll fill it.

Exactly.

If. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

And we have clear, I have clear now I have clear parameters around when I need to take care of myself and when not. And I think we had very similar situations while you were trying to like you were sick. I had and in denial. I identified that I was going to have an issue and I wiped my calendar. I messaged you and I'm like not doing anything for the next three days.

I know. I, and it was funny. I, I, I'll wholeheartedly admit when I got that message from you, I was jealous. Oh. Because I, I saw the, I knew the shitstorm I was walking into and I'm just marching on along like, like the good little soldier and I'm like, oh, damn it. So yeah, I was a bit jealous of that. Like she and take that as a good thing is. But no, seriously, it's like you have that, you have that foresight and it's that the, the thing that's tough is watching right now and this is the thing that's always tough to see. I just recently crashed hard. I know you have also.

Yeah.

But most of us haven't seen that from you.

I. Oh, and that's. That's true. They don't see me 10 years ago when I tried to burn my house down.

Correct, Correct. So that is the. That, like. And to me, I love that because it shows. There's that development. Shows me like it gives someone me, like, hope for the future.

Yeah. You can get there.

That. Right. I'm not going to continue to run into the brick wall. I will a few more times.

I. And I do too. I just. You don't see it as much because I've identified.

You don't run into it at a full sprint. You run into it maybe at a brisk walk.

No. Yes. And that was it. This was a. This was a speed bump because I again, I had to clear my calendar for three days and say, I mean, and we had a major election. I had a major campaign that I was working on and advocating for. And I was like, I can't be at the polls for those three days. Here's why. And they're like, okay, we understand. I said, if you want me on Tuesday, I can't be there Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And they went, not a problem. And I was able to rebound, be perfectly fine. But I think also it's always easier to spot things in other people than it is to spot them in ourselves.

100%. That's why I get to talk about it.

It is. And that's why I want to transition to that. Because I feel like maybe as we talk about team, maybe you'll have some additional self reflection.

Oh, I'm sure I will. I'm sure I will.

So, I mean, I want to know, how do you identify an employee on the brink of burnout? And what are those first few steps that you're doing to remedy the issue? I'm excited for this dialogue.

Yeah. So the first one is like, just looking at it from a pure operational piece, productivity, you see pattern changes in it, and it may be like, hey, Monday, Tuesday, they kick ass. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, they are completely useless when typically they're a consistent employee.

Yeah.

It's not necessarily. They just go straight to the toilet and hang out there. No, it's that inconsistency and it's looking for those patterns in that. The other thing that I always like to tell people is one week is not a pattern.

No.

You need to see the two weeks or three weeks of that to realize that. Okay. Monday, Tuesday, they. They kill it. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, they're useless. Okay. If they do that three weeks in a row, there's an Issue. If they do that one week they had a bad Tuesday night.

Yeah.

So realize that the other one is, too, is. I've watched employees pull back. There's that increased cynicism. There's that detachment. You see, the employees start to look a little bit negative on stuff. And it's not the employee that was your greatest cheerleader turning into the it'll never work kind of person. It's just them. If they were their greatest cheerleaders, they just may not talk as much. If they were neutral, they may have more negative things to say. They may not be as engaged. Um, or they may start. They may start shit with other people in the office.

Yes. I've seen that explosive behavior that you're not used to.

Right.

That's very out of character for them.

Correct.

Or they're in your office going, I need to talk to you.

You're like, oh, right, Sally did this. Right. Sally did this. Or someone did this. Or I. Yeah. Just to get back at them, I stirred their coffee with my finger. Something of that nature. The other one that. The big obvious one is absenteeism, withdrawal. I mean, any. Anything like that that you see. The one that's big is time padding. And it's typically ones that you see out of managers.

Yeah.

Where they realize, like, hey, they may start showing up earlier, staying later. And I think of the episode of Seinfeld where George left his car at the. At the facility at the Yankee Stadium, and they're like, george has been doing amazing work. He's here before I get here, and he's here after that. That's. That's just someone presenting.

Yes.

It's not actual stuff getting done. If people are working harder and not getting as much done, by golly, that should be a time to ask questions.

Yeah.

Sloppiness, uncharacteristic errors. These are all things that, like, to me, when you start to see those things, those are signs that. And I mean, you need to look at that, like, once again, one mistake isn't a pattern.

Yeah.

But you see that a few times. You have to start looking at that and start asking the questions of why. And this is why we talk about culture so much to begin with, because you have to be able to go into the people and say, hey, something's up. Not go into them and be like, dude, you suck.

Yes.

Because the problem is so many employees, because there's not that good supportive relationship in there ahead of time. You cannot approach them saying, hey, your productivity's down a little bit. If you have a good relationship with them. You can go in and say, hey, I noticed something's up. What do we need to do to fix this? Yeah, if you don't have the good relationship, they're going to be like, I'm going to get fired.

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Back to the show. No and strong culture, strong understanding of how your employees tick, I think is really important to ensure those conversations. The other thing I would say too is you need to be or have a good understanding as a business owner if you are contributing to their burnout. Because if you're running seven 12 hour shifts with no breaks, no PTO, everybody's on mandatory sevens or mandatory sixes or mandatory fives with mandatory overtime. I mean, if you're in that space and you're like, I don't understand why no one likes it here. I don't understand why everybody's crying or everybody's angry. Everybody's snapping at me. It's your fault, dummy. So I mean, like, you've got to have some idea as to what's going on within your organization. If you are, if your team is so lean that there is no ease or capacity to handle a difficult day, you're gonna burn them out over time and it may not happen right away. Most teams, if they've got a thick culture, can handle 90 days of hard, but they can't do 180. So you've got, I mean, I would say even 90 days is really difficult. 45 manageable. I mean, anybody can do a week of really hard stuff, but you've got to give them a break. You've got to be able to have that understanding. And just because you are running and burning the candle at both ends and doing all the things that you want to do. And like, not having any balance doesn't mean that you get to do that to your team members. It's dumb. Don't do it.

I didn't light the candle. I threw a blowtorch at it.

You did, you did.

We were just trying to melt the candle as a whole. I didn't need the wicks.

No.

One of the things that I look at for, like, how do I remedy this? The what can I take off your plate? Check in is one that I like to talk about. Like, the worst question in the world is, how are you? Because everyone's gonna be like, fine, great.

It's good. Get out of my office. Just leave me alone. Right.

All I can think of is that meme of the dog that's drinking a beer in the bar that is on fire. Yeah. Everything's fine. It's fine. It's all fine. Everything's fine. They're never gonna tell you.

No.

Ask specifically about the workload. Where do you feel. Do you feel pressure from these deadlines? Do you feel like this is going to get done? What are those things? How are we looking for this? Have a priority discussion about it then to what. What needs done now?

Yes.

They may have 10 projects. If they've got 10 projects and they think every single one is 10 on the priority scale, guess what? They're going to burn. Yeah, they are going to burn, baby. Burn.

Yeah.

If they know that there's a 10 and three fives and a couple of twos, not a problem.

Makes it easier.

The other one is, is get off the treadmill. I know there's always big projects coming up. Don't. As soon as someone gets done with a. Someone just had a three month project, don't be like, great, here's a four month project.

Yeah.

You have essentially moved the goalposts and they're just never going to feel like they've made any progress or got anything done.

And always celebrate when they finish something.

Oh, gosh. Yes.

That's the hard. I think that's one that often managers don't do well is they're like, okay, onto the next project. You know what? We had a three month project. Now we're doing a four month project. Can you get. Let's have a day and celebrate. Let's have, let's have some time and let's actually do some good planning around. Now we've got a larger project because we're growing and things are going well. Celebrate it as opposed to like, great, you did that here's the next thing that's. And that I think as business owners, we are. We are horrible at celebrating in general. So congrats.

You did your job.

Congrats. You did your job. We all got paid. Yeah. Yes.

Right. Right.

No, you got to celebrate.

We need to do that again. No, I, I agree. I am terrible about that. I'm horrible about that. I 100%. The other one is that skill gap assessment.

Yeah, that's good.

There are. The, the big thing that I see is people. Just because they're good in an area doesn't mean they're good at all things in that area.

Yes.

And sometimes you have given something to someone that there's one small piece that is going to sink them and that's what they get stuck on. And so take a look and go over these projects and be like, look, is there a thing that we need to, like, move to someone else?

Yeah.

And moving an hour's worth of work can totally unload someone. And it's. It's amazing. The other one is, is too, is like, protect their focus and deep work. As business owners, we need to do this, too. I have a great story from someone we both know, Ned Parks.

Okay.

He was. He went into a factory. He's a business consultant. Went into a factory. And like he said, they talked to 120, 140 people. He goes, by the time you've talked to nine people, you know what the problems are.

Yes.

And he goes, there was a, A section, a whole group that would literally talk at the beginning of the week and say, we're booking this week every month. We're just blocking this on our calendar so we can get stuff done. Yeah, that's a problem. Because if people are in meetings so much that they can't get their stuff done, they're going to get stressed out.

Yes.

And he said the funniest thing about that was, is he goes, I tell this to all the managers. And he goes, you see a couple of them start to jump on their computer, and the one of them just. He goes, About 10 minutes later, the one goes, shit, it's my group. Because he realized his group, he was having so many meetings with his group.

Yes.

Meetings aren't what. You don't get anything done in meetings.

No.

You talk about what needs to get done. You. But you don't get anything done in meetings. The other thing is, turn off the, Turn off the email, turn off the phone. If it's someone that's in an office, let them work from home. Get away from the office. If that's a distraction for them to go work from home this week.

Yeah.

Get this thing done. If that's. If you, if you can work better on your back porch, do it, do it. The other one is too, is like, figure out why so many people, they get rushing these projects because the deadline isn't there. They're like, oh, this, I need this. We got to get this done asap. My ASAP and your asap.

Oh, they're very different.

They could be very different. Yeah, they could be very, very different. And I found too, there's times where I'm like, hey, I'm like, we've got three or four projects that we need to get edited right away. And that's on top of the five or six that I already. That I said yesterday. We need to get edited right away. And I'm like, I just told her we need 10 podcasts edited before 3 today.

So you need to define the expectations.

Correct. Correct. I screwed up the priority. I was the one that said, here's too much and that's my screw up. And I'm the one that needs to go to the customer and say, look, I may have set this expectation a little bit, A little bit high for you.

Yes.

I need to eat that, not my employees.

Yes.

So, yeah, making sure that happens. The other thing is, like I said, is clarify those priorities and effort. What are the top three priorities? What are the top three things? Stopping people and make sure that we've got our. We want to get a good enough standard. We want to get to the standard that we need to. In order to get this done. In order to get this done in a way that's going to make the customer happy.

Yeah.

It doesn't always need to be perfect. So make sure that they don't feel that pressure. What happens when you ignore burnout? I saw that you put the, like putting this in here.

Yeah.

And as soon as I saw that the other day, I'm like, oh, I can't wait to ask Chrissy this question. Like, what is the cost of ignoring burnout? And I can see you're excited to answer this.

Well, it's sometimes it's really even hard to manage. But I mean, and to really quantify. But staff turnover, increased errors, I mean, hospital visits. I mean, like, burnout. Burnout isn't just an HR issue. It's really a business risk. And when you, when you ignore it, you're paying the price in turnover, in disengagement and preventable errors. I mean, and Again, yes. Actual hospital visits. If burnout has created such a stressful environment on your body, you wind up in the hospital because you ignore all the warning signs. I mean, think about that. I have watched high performers in an organization and business owners and myself. I mean, we go from MVP to out of the office with anxiety. I mean, and it's rarely, like, about the workload.

I couldn't. I couldn't open my laptop.

No.

I laid in bed. And for me to. Not even, like, for me to ignore my email.

Oh, I was just. I was. When you text me, you're like, I'm sick. I'm not going to be available. I was like, oh, my God, he's dying.

Right. Right. You knew it. You knew. I didn't just have the sniffles.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that for some people with burnout, the struggle with them, it's. It's not when they're out. It's also that weight of not being seen, hurt, or supported. So that can really cause some additional problems when it comes to. To recovery from burnout. Is that. Can they. Can they handle that piece?

It's funny you say that because I have had a tough time coming back from this.

Yeah.

To say. Okay. Because I'm like, now I'm behind and I need to catch up.

Yes.

And so what is that fine line that I need to walk to make sure that I don't put myself right back under.

Yeah.

And it's. I've had to be very intentional. Like last night I went home and I'm like, I am tired. And we literally sat on the couch, watched seinfeld, and at 8 o', clock I'm like, I'm going to bed.

Yes.

And I surfed Instagram. Just made sure Instagram was the only app that I was gonna. And it was just. It's dumb motorcycle stuff and horrif. Perfect comedy or the things that I'm going to watch, but that. That I'm like, I have to check out.

You do. I mean, you have to let yourself rest. You have to let yourself recover. And I will tell you, I have come back from burnout. I'm like, I've recovered from my burnout and I should have probably taken a week or two weeks off and because I came back too early, that I'm out for another two, three weeks because I came back too hard.

The other piece to that, that I want to talk about with. With that too, is that productivity piece.

Yeah.

Because I am trying to come back and I'm trying to. And then it was Funny, the other night, I'm like, okay, I got. I got to do. I gotta get stuff caught up. And suddenly I notice I'm, like, fiddling with settings on something. Or I'm like. I'm like, this is not productive.

You still burn out.

I'm like, why the hell am I doing this? I ordered some nice shirts on ebay, but good job. But. Yeah. And I'm like, but I'm still sitting in my office in front of the computer, working, even though it's zero productivity.

Yeah.

And it's making sure that I'm intentional about, like, if I'm going to be in that situation and if I'm not going to be, I need to get the hell out of there. Like, why is culture make it easier to spot when. When, for lack of a better term, shit's about to hit the fan?

So culture is what gives you an early warning system. So if people don't feel like they can be safe being real, they're not going to say they're drowning. So culture really allows you to have that early warning system so that instead they're just going to start missing deadlines and they're going to make costly mistakes. So it's really. It's that telltale sign when you've got a good, thick culture and you've got people that feel safe to be able to speak up and say, hey, you gave me six projects. I can only really handle four right now. Or you. You gave me 10 projects. Our software can only process eight of these in the amount of time that you need them to be done by, as opposed to that person just being like, they're never going to help me, or I give up or just walk out. It's really important. And those. Those are the things when you can foster that communication and you can have those conversations. It really helps you. I mean, especially when things get tough, when pressure gets hard, because then your team's able to spot those issues. And sometimes to. Your team is able to spot when you're on the edge of burnout. I mean, I have team members now that will just flat out come to me and say, we're concerned about you. And it's. I'm like, they're not even close to where my line is. I'm like, okay, sure. Great.

No, that's great.

It is.

That. That truly is. It's funny for me because, like I said, the. You. You see it in the people. You just know when that healthy culture gives you that visibility where you can start to see it, the next piece that we're going to kind of discuss here is one that I truly, and this is my favorite part about it because it's kind of nuanced. It's that difference between helping a burnt out employee and enabling poor performance. And to me, very simple. If it's a performance change, yes. That's the sign of burnout.

Yes.

If it's just been bad, well, you made the wrong hire.

Agree, agree. Because you know, support doesn't mean rescuing. No, no. When someone's burnout helping them, it might mean time off, it might mean clarifying the expectations, it might be coaching. It is not ignoring accountability. Accountability is still there. There's still an expectation around what the work performance should be. But there are moments where you go, this is again not the normal performance that we see from this person. What's going on? What is causing it? And I think that I mean enabling.

Asking the question, asking the question, what is the cause of this?

Yes. Because enabling looks like excusing performance without getting to the root. Helping means addressing both the person and the pattern. So I mean, I don't coddle my team. I don't.

I wouldn't expect you to.

But I do care enough to coach them through anything.

Yes.

So that's what's really important.

The other piece to that is, and this is another one that I was excited to talk about, we have highlighted sustainable output over relentless, unsustainable effort. And it's funny because I was just talking with Kim about this the other day. From my personal perspective, I run at 11.

Yeah, me too.

When I take a break, I run at 10.6.

Yes.

That is where I run.

Yes.

Kim run like she can run at nine for a couple of days and then she's going to have a couple of days at two.

Yeah.

It's figuring out that type of effort that people can put out.

Yes.

And what works and it's, it. There's an ebb and a flow to it. If someone runs at nine, they probably need to come back at two for a little while to recover. If you put them in a five, well, they can run at five all day long and never, never look back. But you've got to find that balance and what's tough for us. You already know where I'm going with this.

11 is just 11 is normal.

Right. 11 is low end.

When people are like, how do you get all this stuff done? And there's times where I look at people, I don't know how you don't get anything done. It's because, okay, here this Is the assessment train. Okay, we're gonna go. Woo woo. Manifesting generator achiever relator on the strengthsfinder code. And Colby, I am an 8 8, which means high fact finder, high follow through, which means I can do probably twice the amount of work of the normal person. And that's not ego, it's just how I'm wired.

Yeah, there's some wires crossed.

There are. And I'm totally willing to own that. And that's one of the things that when I have new team members, when we onboard people, I give them a lot of this information, say, look, this is who I am. I work very hard to be manageable to other people. I have a lot of things going on in part, so I don't exhaust everybody else around me. And I think that as a leader, it's really important for you to understand where your burnout edge is and also understand that the majority of your team members, probably all of them, are not going to hold a candle for to where you are and your burnout scale. Scale on your burnout meter. And I will say this too, and I think this is probably more important for people in middle management than it is necessarily for the business owner. But we have got to stop clapping for the last person that leaves the office.

I wholeheartedly agree with that one. To me, I've got a piece on this. Salary is awful in today's world because it is just get everything, all the things done. And we. It is another way. In so many ways. It has been exploited from my perspective as to just get more blood from the stone. It should be. Get your stuff done, get the hell out of here. Three o'. Clock. Awesome. Go home.

Yeah, it's totally fine. Or you want to come in later? That's okay. I mean, I think productivity at the expense of people isn't sustainable. We can't do it.

It is not. And they've pushed so hard on that.

Yes.

And I mean, this goes back to that Jack Welch culture. Right. Oh, I knew as soon as I said that I was going to get a visceral reaction from you. It is. It is that just constant pushing. You can't do that. You get so much more from people when you show them that, hey, here's the goal post. Get to that goal post and you're done.

Exactly.

And make it an attainable goal post. Don't make it 175 yard field. It's 100 yard field.

And stop moving the goal post for everybody.

Correct.

It's got to have a stopping point. I think we need to we celebrate team members who deliver consistent and healthy output. It's not always about time. I mean, in the reverse. I was having a conversation with Julie in our office today and she was talking about, you know, when she first got to our organization, it was like she could tell Everybody leaves at 5. She's like, But I have one thing I want to finish. It's going to take me 10 minutes. And you're like, no, you got to go now. As opposed to, you know, let's have dialogue. If somebody's there for an extra five minutes because they're laughing with a colleague, don't rush them out of the office. It's okay to have balance. If people need to come in a little bit later because they've got to get their kids on the bus, that's fine. What are the expectations? How do we continue to, to move forward?

I have a hilarious story about that. When I was at the truck dealership, okay. I'm an executive. I was required to be there from eight to five. Like at five o' clock we were literally lined up at the door to. I'm an executive lined up at the door to leave at 5 because there was zero flexibility in anything and. Right. Yeah, right. I mean if you're going to make if like the owner would scream if you got there at 8:03. Right, right. So if you're going to scream at me for being three minutes late, well, I sure as hell am not going to stay three minutes late at night. So if I've got, if it's 5:30 and I've got something that's going to take me 35 minutes to get done, or if it's 4, 4:30 and it's going to take me 35 minutes to get done, guess what?

Not doing it.

Not doing it. Not doing it. Yeah, it's. It's funny how that culture changes that to wrap this all up.

Yeah.

And so I can go take a nap and recover. Couple of clear, actionable takeaways for the business owner, the middle manager, anyone who wants to make their business more resilient.

Yeah.

So I knew that would get you to smile. I love is resilient, sustainable. The first one I'm going to say is patterns. Look for patterns in people. If you see a pattern change, something has changed. One time is not a pattern. Look for patterns.

Yeah. I would say audit your scope for yourself, your key employees. You do not have to do it all to lead it all.

But I like.

No.

Define done. What is done? It doesn't, I mean there's times where it's just a checkbox. Great. But if it's writing something, if it's something creative, make sure that you have an established level of polish that it needs to get to where you can say, yep, we're good.

Yeah. And we're going to celebrate sustainability, not survival.

Oh, God, yes.

Stop clapping for that last person to leave the office.

Yep. Yep. The other thing is model what you want to see. This is the, this is the tougher one in some cases because we, we want to make sure that we are doing things correctly, but we are addictive, we're addicts to our business and stuff like that. So make sure we handle it the.

Right way and really listen and watch for the warning signs and don't freaking ignore them. Josh.

I, I, yeah, no, I listened, I watched and like I said, every dashboard light was lit up and I'm like, floor it.

We go anyway. Floor it.

Single most effective boundary you've put in that said, hey, I'm not going to go down in a blaze of glory.

That was reclaiming my after hours time. So started with no phone at dinner with our kids and then it went also to we. I am generally only out one night per week during the week.

I, I, you said that a few episodes ago.

Yeah, it's a big deal.

I've recently put that in.

Good job. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Okay, for you, what's the quickest system you can implement tomorrow to reduce task pressure on an overworked team member?

Time. Spend 15 minutes and just talk to your people, ask them things. Something has a date that you can put off, but you don't know that until you sit down and have an honest and open conversation. We don't stress those.

No, not at all.

Sweaty 10 minute conversations.

Great.

That's to everyone out there that is wanting to take care of control of their health and protect their teens and their next year's healthcare budget because I believe I just upped ours.

Yeah.

Thank you for joining us, Chrissy. This once again has been educational. You have been there, done that and it's always interesting to hear your perspective on it. For those of you that want more resources, businessfixedpodcast.com, make sure to follow us on all all the social media is at the business. Fix a review a subscription, go a long way. And helping us help other business owners. If you know a business owner that's going through this, please tag them. We would love to help someone else not hit the wall at 700 miles an hour. You lit up when we said the word resiliency.

Yes.

That is what we're talking about. Next week, I fully expect to stay quiet in this seat and just have Chrissy rip her face in half from smiling so much.

So excited.

I know you are. To everyone out there. Thank you very much. Do me a favor. Take care of yourself so you don't end up like me. If you can take care of someone else. We will see you very, very soon, Sam.