Coach, Correct, or Cut? The Leadership Decision You're Avoiding

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You were a national tap dance champion.

Yes, I was.

I was a nationally ranked soccer goalkeeper at one point in time. Yes. We both saw people step into the studio, step onto the field where you're like, oh no, you know, you know the kid that I'm talking about, the kid that they had everything bought for them and they had less talent than this table we are using right now.

Yeah.

And those are the ones where, you know, that is a cut.

Yeah.

There's the ones that come in where you're like, hey, maybe, okay, there's, there's something to be on the team with me, right? Those are the ones that you can coach.

Yes.

Um, the other ones are ones that are the superstars that just need that little bit of correction.

Yeah.

This is— we're starting off with a sports analogy for Coach, correct, or cut? You got to figure out what you are doing with your employees because they need one of those three things. Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the Business Fix. We're still spring adjacent.

You know, not even close. When do we believe the season has changed? June. I'm sorry, I don't believe— I don't believe in late April and May.

No, I, I don't know. June, I believe— I, I'm— June is when I'm finally not looking for snow anymore.

Yes. Um, the weather is no longer managed by an intern.

Correct, correct, correct. Uh, there's no longer a toddler with a lever, petulant toddler up there just yanking on the rain, snow, warm, cold Exactly. Um, yeah, we don't, we don't need toddlers.

All the viruses that go through your body in this quarter.

And it seems like everyone has been sick this year, like, and more.

Yes.

Um, everyone, like, I just the other day I heard a friend like, hey, pneumonia. And I'm like, we didn't hear of that a while back. No, no, this is, this is, this is a wild ride.

All the germs.

What a great way to start the episode. Chrissy talks to a germaphobe about the germs. I, I'm just going to spend the rest of the episode hiding underneath the desk. We are talking about this week whether you should coach, correct, or cut them. I, I had to stay with the 3 Cs.

I love that.

I know that way. I mean, it was your topic that you would put in the, in the, in the, the list, and I thought, oh, and we've got a list of topics.

Yeah.

And, uh, as I was going through it, I can tell which one Chrissy puts in.

There's alliteration in all of them.

Correct. So if you're ever looking for a hint whether Chrissy picked the episode topic or Josh did, you've got your clue right there. Uh, with those three, I mean, it— there's decisions in them that need to be made, and they're always a tough decision.

Yeah.

Um, how do you handle this thing? I mean, first off, My answer is not usually screaming. Yeah, there's some people that think coaching is screaming.

It's not.

It's—

you're going to define coaching, correcting, and cutting. You want to kind of—

no, I don't, because I feel like we are going to do that as we go through the episode. I know we've got that as a list in here, but I'm skipping right past.

Sure. I love that.

Because— right. Because to me, we've talked about how nice creates dysfunction. Like, hey, Can you just go ahead and maybe do the— can you, like, I'd love it if you'd do the thing, right? Even just me saying that, I think you're gonna punch me. Chrissy's gonna get stabby here soon. Uh, from the HR, from the CEO perspective, how does a leader distinguish between that skill gap, which is coachable, or a will gap, which is correctable?

Yeah.

Or the they just ain't got it?

So we talk about that nice leader trap. We talked about it a few podcast episodes ago.

We talk about all the time. We do.

How you kind of, you're stuck in the gray because you just want to be nice. And we talk too about how clear leaders use clarity, consistency, and care, those 3 C's of leadership to get out of it, right? So here's how I kind of coach it. So, you know, you start with clarity. Is the expectation crystal clear? Not do better. Don't just look at something, do better. No.

I've heard that.

I have too, and it's not helpful. So it's not do better, but here's what good looks like and be very specific. And then you check the capability, like can they actually do it? If they can't, it's a skill gap and you coach. And coaching is an asset building exercise. So you're investing in capacity. And then if they can do it and they're still not doing it, now you're in consistency territory. And that's the question, like are they showing up the same way every time? If not, that's a behavior gap and you're going to correct. And then there's a hard one, and that's commitment. And that is, do they want to do it this way here on this team, or do they need to be somewhere else? And if they know what to do, they can do it, and then they're not aligning and they're not doing it, that's a will gap. That's not something that you can coach on. That's where you move from correct to cut. So to keep it simple, if they can't, you coach. If they can but aren't, you correct. And if they can, won't, and don't align, you cut.

Oh, you even had the sound effect.

I did.

Well done.

Thank you.

Well done.

Yeah.

And then that to me, it's a— it gives us pretty hard lines with that because this is something that so many people feel has gray area to it. With that, like, how do you keep that consistency though?

Yeah. You mean like Building it. You don't fire people for what you failed to teach. You always make sure that you're teaching it.

That's what I wanted to hear.

You also don't keep people when they refuse to align. So again, we talk about hostage negotiation in HR. You do not want them as a hostage in your business where they are hostile and they are not doing the thing. At the same time, you should not be a hostage in your own business or as a manager trying to just— you cannot will or hope that they just get better. Hope is not a strategy when it comes to personnel.

This reminds me of something. It's something that I know I heard Jimmy Carr say it.

Okay.

We have control over absolutely nothing.

That's correct.

We have varying levels of influence over things.

Yes.

If you cannot influence them, you do the noise better.

As it relates to people, that is exactly what it is. I mean, you can, you can control your emotions in the situation. You can control your reaction. But that's about it.

Yeah, yeah, most of the time I can.

Yeah, same.

There's some types where they're like, your face is red and it normally does not get red. Why, why, why is that color? Why is it that color? The thing that I like— the, the question for me is, I've seen people where someone shows up, um, they're like, uh, they're not doing the job. Fire them. Yeah, like, and I've seen a lot of people, good people, get fired when that happens. They don't get taught, they don't get training, they don't— like, how do you— first off, how do you know when it is the person and not— how do you know when it's the, the worker and not the leadership? Okay, that's the problem. And then when is that decision made?

Yeah, so are you talking about like, you know, avoiding sometimes where we avoid it?

No, no, not at all.

We don't avoid it for a time. I will tell you, for me, there are times where I'll have conversations within my leadership team around personnel and they'll say, you know, this person isn't performing. I go, why don't you let them go? And it's not because I immediately want them to be like, yep, let's fire them. I want to push them on, are you complaining? Is this something that you've done as a skill gap or is it a will gap on the leadership side? Like, tell me why. Tell me why this person isn't working or you're complaining about Joy in sales for, for a while, like, help me understand what Joy isn't doing. And they're like, oh no, no, Joy's— Joy's— is Joy following the process? No, she's following the process. Okay. Is this something that we have an issue in pipeline? Is this— is this she's not doing the work or is this you haven't coached her in what to do? And so having those conversations, I think, is important. You can kind of assess. I do not like that when you just walk in, you're like, off with their heads, like immediately we're going to eliminate all these people. I think that's a different conversation. But I think as if you're a leader of leaders, sometimes being blunt with them and saying, well, why don't you let them go? Is not a negative if it's helping them dialogue and discuss the direction they are. At the same time, if they're bringing it to you multiple times or they're complaining about the same issue over and over and over, I'm gonna go, wait a second, you've complained about Joy in sales 6 times in the last 6 weeks. Is that because you don't like training Joy, or is that because Joy is not capable of doing the work? And then if it's like you complain, you complained about her 6 times in the last 6 months. How are we like, is she following the process of what she needs to do? That's, that's where some of that comes from.

That's interesting. I love the going to the, why don't you get rid of them? Because that really, that is a, like, that's not what people are expecting.

No, they want validation. Like, oh, I'm sorry, it's hard to manage people. No, that's, I mean, yes, I can validate if I need to, but there's, there's times where that isn't necessary.

Sympathetic Chrissy is not in the studio today, and I'm here for it. I'm here for it. But no, it, it truly is. It's once again, it's putting the onus on the leader, saying, have you done the things that you are supposed to do?

Yes.

Not, are they doing the things? Have you done the things?

Well, and then it— you really start shifting that space about what it does for high performers. So I think that a lot of times leaders unintentionally break the very thing they're trying to protect in their team dynamics and protecting those key performers. Sure. So they think that keeping a low performer is kind and we have to give people unlimited opportunities. Okay?

Everyone gets a trophy.

Everyone gets a trophy. Everyone can be saved. I mean, I told— we've had this conversation before where I've looked at people and said, you're not Jesus and you can't save everyone. You can't do it. Because what it does is with your high performers, it feels like confusion, compromise, and collapse. You got 3 more Cs. So confusion.

At least you are consistent.

I am consistent. So here's for those high performers, that's when they see people continuously being rewarded for bad behavior, not being cut, not truly being coached, they get confused. So they say, what actually matters here? They're asking themselves. And if If this person is doing a terrible job, why am I working so hard? So that's confusion. Then there's compromise, which is, you know, they're asking the question, are the standards optional or are they actually real? And seriously, why am I caring so much for doing a good job if Joy in Sales isn't doing a good job too?

Right.

And then there's collapse, and that's collapse of trust. And that is, you know, if they really don't care about the standard, if my manager really just accepts mediocrity, it really doesn't matter what I do. I don't think I should adhere to the standards either, or maybe I'm going to go adhere to the standards in another job. So that, like, it speaks to that psychological safety too, because I mean, sometimes people are like, well, we— to give psychological safety, we need to make sure that everybody feels included and everybody feels safe. And that is not psychological safety. That is a safe space. And that is a totally different conversation that we probably— you and I will agree on, but other people may not.

So you pay for a safe space.

You pay for it.

You don't get paid at a safe space. Correct.

[Speaker:CHRISTY MYERS] That is correct. And when we're innovating and we're doing a job, psychological safety isn't about protecting people from consequences, it's about protecting the integrity of the environment. So it's about making it a place where people can speak up when things aren't working so that somebody can tell Joy she's not doing a good job. So it's what we talk about is when, you know, people aren't working, when things need to change, that's where a psychologically safe environment is. And so when your best people are consistently covering for someone else, they're not gonna feel safe, they're gonna feel unsupported, and then they feel abandoned. And abandoned people abandon your company.

Yes.

Yeah.

There's nothing more to say to that. Just yes.

No.

Um, other though, uh, the only other thing I wanna add is if your name is Joy, stay clear of Chrissy Myers today.

I'm sorry. Oops.

Sorry, Joy. The abandonment piece, I, I wholeheartedly agree with because that is that thing where if it's not consistent, it Why am I working hard for this? Why, why should I give up? Why should I put my talents here if they're not being appreciated? And it— you don't show appreciation with pizza. You show, you show appreciation by making sure that the right things are rewarded and the wrong things have consequences.

You're exactly right, because avoiding that cut of that person doesn't preserve your culture. It pressures your best people to carry what leadership won't confront.

Oh yeah.

And nothing erodes safety faster than watching those standards get ignored.

I feel like that needs to be framed.

Yes, it's—

that's not shitty wall art.

No, it's not.

That's really good wall art.

Thank you.

You should hang that up in your office.

I, I might.

That may be intimidating to some people.

Nothing erodes safety faster than watching standards get ignored, right? Caution tape.

Chrissy Myers, there caution tape on your office door? No reason.

No reason.

So how does a CEO like use that formal coach correct cut framework to eliminate that favoritism, eliminate the— and once again, everyone's always worried about the legal risks because everyone's like, I'm going to get sued. No one wants that.

Yeah, but they say, I don't want to get sued, so they just avoid it. And that is the problem. I don't want to get sued. I'm going to just hide under my bed or hide under my desk. That's not helpful. So this is where structure really becomes protection. So, you know, I am always going to give you a framework. I'm a girl who loves frameworks because frameworks make decisions factual, less emotional. So without a framework, decisions feel personal. I like them. So here's where, here's where this goes. You create the framework around, you know, taking away those personal feelings of I like them, they've been here a long time, they're a top performer. Because if you have those, you're going to fall into a favoritism trap. And that's really where a lot of legal risk lives. So with the framework, we've got predictable, provable, professional decision-making. So we're going to anchor it again in 3 more C's, which are, you know, I didn't think there was this many C words. There are.

I, well, I knew there was. I, I know there's one that's coming here.

There's lots. There's lots. So here's, and it's again, it's how we do leadership. So clarity, consistency, and care. So clarity, we document the expectations up front because we love to document. Consistency is we apply the same standards to everyone. And care is that we document the journey, not just the outcome. So this is where I say like, ooh, that's different.

Yeah.

So, I mean, we take the 3 C's of leadership and we also put them into the 3 C's of avoiding a favoritism trap.

Avoiding the— and I like the fact that it's a trap.

Yes.

Because all I picture is something out of like the quicksand out of like Scooby-Doo or something like that. Because it is similar.

It is similar. I mean, if you don't want to remember the 3 C's and why you need to document, I want you to just remember these 3 words: documentation is kindness. Because to be clear is to be kind.

And if it's on paper, it should be consistent.

It should be consistent.

It's easy to be consistent.

Yes. So when you clearly are documenting what was coached and what was corrected and what improvement looks like, that cut is not shocking. It's sequential. So it's easy to walk there. It takes some of the emotion away, not all of it, because we're just, we're human. It makes it factual. And we know that facts don't care about your feelings, but they can help you navigate those feelings. And it becomes the natural next step, not the sudden decision.

So love that. Yeah, absolutely love that.

And then, I mean, it's also where, you know, we talked about the brilliant jerk in some past conversations. This is also where like that brilliant jerk hits the point of no return, because when someone refuses to align after the clear coaching and correction, continuing to keep them isn't kindness, it's culture compromise. So then you are seeing it yourself of like, look, this is not working. And then from that risk standpoint, you know, the consistency protects you legally, that documentation protects you operationally, and clarity protects you culturally. When it's documented, it's defensible.

100%. Yes.

And when it's consistent, it's trusted. So, yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's—

I mean, no one— my umbrella saying, if I'm walking into a shitstorm, I want to know which way the wind's blowing.

Yes.

Like, knowing which way the wind is blowing It means you can trust it.

Yeah. So when we're talking about some of these things, you know, when we coach, we're building capacity. When we correct, we're protecting consistency. And when we cut, we're protecting culture. And then when you lead with clarity, consistency, and care, those gray zones of, of leadership and management disappear and leadership gets a whole lot lighter.

Let's be honest, you did not start your business so you could spend your days buried in HR paperwork or Googling how to handle employee drama.

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That's clarityhr.com. Simple, clear, and here to help.

I'll give you a few seconds to go to the website while we get ready to get back to the show. Wow.

All the Cs.

Wow. I feel like we should end there because I, I'm gonna have a tough time.

No, you're not.

No, it was, it was, that was, I mean, there's a, there's a lot of pieces to that too. And first off, Somehow the, the way— I don't know, like, what you use for a thesaurus, uh, to pull all the C words.

My insurance brain, because everything's in— everything's an acronym.

Everything's an acronym. 100% makes sense. The, the thing that— the, the Brilliant Jerk story, as I remember, when I was someplace, they had a really good salesman. Yeah. And the problem was, is he was 68 years old, or 70 years old.

Mm-hmm.

Great salesman. They had put so much stuff and they had given him so much favoritism and let him break so many rules over time. Yeah, he was getting like 50% of the sales out of— it was 5 salesmen.

Yeah.

What happens when he has a heart attack?

Exactly.

They had just given him so much favoritism on that that, yeah, it— and it opened them up to all sorts of issues.

Or another point is you're building the organization, you've got a high-performing salesperson that will not follow a process. So you are rebuilding the processes around them because what I have to— and that, oh, I've been, I've been that person. I did it wrong because then it became a problem for everybody. It's like I should never— as a CEO, as a manager, as a leader, you should never be in the organization thinking, how do I get where I really want to go and avoid having to deal with Bob?

Right.

Like, that's not— if that is what you're doing, that should be a red flag to you that there's a problem. I mean, like, danger, Will Robinson. Stop.

What I found interesting with that is the manager was doing all of the technical stuff for the salesperson, so he couldn't— he didn't have the time to answer technical questions for any of the other salespeople.

Yes.

And then when something would get messed up, suddenly it's the salesperson's fault. It's like, whoa, we tried to ask and you didn't.

Yeah, yeah, we have to go paperless. This is me, this is Chrissy Myers, like 20 plus years ago. We have to go paperless. How can we make sure that Bob still has his filing cabinet? No, no, did it wrong.

No. So Joy and Bob—

Joy and Bob is what it is. Be very aware, very aware of who you are. Yeah, where I am.

If you see Chrissy and she, she's smiling, you're— I mean, depending on the smile, it's fine. There's— I, I've seen the, I've seen the smile from Chrissy that's like I'm going to lose it. This is not—

I'm not going to because I want to talk about operations. And we talked a little bit about operationalizing documentation, but let's talk about some more things about how you want to operationalize. So how do you further operationalize the 3 C's, you know, the coaching, correcting, and the cutting? I know I gave you lots of C's. How do you make decisions based on the leader dashboard?

How do you operationalize 3 of the 48 C's?

Just coaching, cutting, correcting.

Yes.

No, for me, coach.

The way that I look at it is from the operations piece. It's similar. It's coaching is when the SOP is followed but the output isn't there yet. Um, and I'm gonna say you've got the kid that shows up to soccer practice and can't— I mean, it's the slow kid. Um, okay, let's— you need some more work, you need some more, you need some more sprints, you need that. I mean, we're going to spend some extra time with you, we're going to work with you on some of like the basic skills of dribbling or juggling or whatever. We're going to work work on these basic skills with you. The, the big piece with that is you have to make sure that the how-to and like the every step is clear and where they're headed. But you've got to make sure that all that is clear for them.

Yeah.

And if you don't do that, how are they like, how are they going to be able to get there? There's, there's no map for them. And so you've got to make sure you've got that in there. The big piece with that is what I like to say is mastery requires those clear written guidelines and shared expectations. Um, where, like, where do I expect you to be? Yeah, I have to tell you.

Tell is the word. You have to tell.

This is where that documentation comes in, because once again, if I say Bob needs to improve, what does improve mean? Um, you alluded to that, like, it needs a number. It needs a thing. There has to be an attached goal here.

Yes.

Otherwise, Bob needs to improve— I don't know why I'm picking on Bob also, um, but Bob needs to improve is a moving goalpost. Yes. Because as soon as Bob gets a little bit better, well, he's still not there yet. Well, he's still not there yet.

Define expectations 100% with a timeline. There has to be time attached to it because that's the other part. We need them to have X amount of dollars by when, X amount of sales by when. Don't just say you have to do well.

Correct.

Define well.

That's— and that's the thing that I think so many people miss about coaching a new employee. They're like, oh, they're going to come in and they're going to start up and they're going to be good.

They're just going to do their job. Do your job is not instructional. That is not a clear expectation.

It might be for you, but it isn't for anyone else in your company.

As a business owner who built the business, yeah, you should know what do your job means to you. But correct, someone who you hired like 48 hours ago, do the job. What is the job, right?

What is that? I mean, I know, I know what it says here, but it also says other assigned tasks at the bottom of my job description.

Exactly. And if you have not given them clear onboarding instructions and you haven't met with them and told them this is what you do for your job and you don't have documented SOP, That's just— why are you setting them up for failure?

Right? Like, I know so many businesses where I would say week 1, they expect someone to come in and week 1 be at full tilt, right? You should be producing the same things that the person that's been at this business for 20 years. And when I say week 1, I've been to places where they're like, hey, welcome to our company. Here's 52 hours of training videos for you to watch. Good luck.

And then we ask you tomorrow if you watched them all.

Correct, correct.

Um, are you ready to take your quiz?

Right, right. How do you expect me to sit there for this and not fall asleep? Um, yeah, so it like, to me, you have to look at the— if you are hiring skilled people, it's going to take a while to not only acquire the way that you do things, but to work within your culture, to work within your company, to do how those— to do those things right.

Yeah.

The solution on the coaching side, it is an investment in a training context is the way I like to put it. It's— I mean, you are building a better part for the machine. The part is the person. The machine is your company. Yeah, that's, that's all there is to it. This is where you spend your leadership bandwidth. To increase future return on investment. That's— this is, this is, this is bang for the buck.

Yeah. Do the work, right?

This is, this is the definition of bang for the buck. This is where you invest and you get back.

Yes.

There's gold here. There's, there's a lot of good gold here in coaching your employees. You just have to make sure on what you're coaching them towards. If it's soccer, it's winning the championship. I mean, that's— that there's the sports, the sports analogy.

And I would say to you, to that point, to Josh, don't get mad when they ask you questions like, how do you do that? How does this work?

I love it when they ask questions because to me that says, hey, you didn't do this clearly, or you didn't tell me, or I don't understand. Correct.

Yes.

I don't know what I missed because to me, I know it all. Yeah, that didn't sound right to me. I know everything that I'm trying to convey to them. Yes, I may not have conveyed it to them.

No, and people learn different ways. That's the other part. Like, it's really fun when you're like, here, go listen to all of these things. If they're not an auditory learner, you're probably not— they're not going to excel at this. So it's like you have to be able to meet them with their learning style.

You and I have talked about that. I mean, we both learn very, very differently.

Yes.

I've got to— I have to stick my hand on the stove. Oh, that did hurt. By the 4th or 5th time, I figure out I probably shouldn't do that. To me, the correction is when the— our second C, correction, it's that compliance problem. This— when I see this happen, it's when the process gets bypassed for speed, comfort, or I know better. Um, they're not that anyone is— I've worked with anyone that ever has an ego or anything. Um, and once again, that's a boundary issue, that's not a skill issue. They, they know. I mean, they're good, they're cranking stuff out. This is when we get to do this, the, the famous thing, the sweaty 10-minute conversation. Favorite, right? You don't need to teach them how to do it. They already know how to do it. And I mean, if they need a review on the process, sure, go ahead and give them that. Yeah, you are reestablishing that the SOPs are a non-negotiable standard. Now what I will say with this is there Here's the better way cautionary note that I like to put in with this. Sometimes an employee will circumnavigate the SOP because they think they found the better way to do this. Yeah, I may have been guilty of this throughout my entire career.

Same.

The problem is, is even if the result's good, there's a correct— you have to have that correction moment because first off, they bypassed the process without correcting in the system. The two things that I see with that is, in many cases, they don't know how it affects people down the line. No, it made it easier for them, it made it smoother for them, it made it simpler for them. And they're like, great, this, this is awesome. They don't realize that it leaves off one nut that the person down the line can't get to, to put on. So that is the— that's the thing that we always have to be aware of, that they aren't aware of.

Yeah.

I, on the flip side of that though, I don't want to quash, like instantly quash if they found a, a simpler way to do something. I at least want to hear them out.

Absolutely.

The problem is, is I don't want to be like, oh, you found a better way to do it and you've gone outside the process, that's wonderful. No, no, um, you have to find the right way to address that, to be like, hey, thank you for finding a better way to do this, but tell me. Yeah, because we have to look at this process ahead of time. Now, the flip side to that that I have seen as an employee in so many cases is when management's just like, nah, I hate that, right? Like, you, you have to be willing to put in the time and effort to look at it.

Yes.

Um, yeah, you do. You have to be willing to do that. It's, it's saving you.

It is. And this is part, again, part of psychological safety. So when you If you've got someone in the organization that innovates without permission, that is a, help me understand how this works. Help me understand, not what were you thinking, don't start that way. Help me understand your frame of mind and why you're doing it this way. And not from a place of like anger or frustration. You may have it internally, but don't do that initially. And then have the conversation with them. Part of where I think sometimes people get wrapped up and don't pay attention to what can happen further down the line is when they haven't been trained on what the big picture for the organization is.

Correct.

So if you're already trained on that, then they're usually less likely to do it, or they'll say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this, and then it's a dialogue.

Correct.

So you should never— I mean, if someone does something and it causes a problem further down the line, that should be an indication to you that maybe we haven't trained on big picture as an organization.

The only other— the things that— the other things that I see with it is, first off, I've seen where you— like, I've walked into places where there's the SOPs and then there's what actually happens, uh, that what I like to call—

you're talking about government, right?

Right. There's the shadow SOPs.

Yes.

Um, a lot of those come from what I like to call like the scope creep or a broken foundation where they're like, it's, it's just one step off, I'll do this. It's just one step off. And if you don't review those things, yes, 5 years down the line, you're— I mean, you're pointed in two opposite directions in terms of how this gets handled. Um, and it just becomes the norm, even though you go into the filing cabinet and you look at how are we supposed to do this, and you're like, oh, like half these people don't even work here anymore. Yeah.

What's your, what's your guidance of SOP best practice and going over? I mean, there's certain things that we go over quarterly and there's certain things that we go over once a year, but what, what have you found?

We look at most stuff quarterly just because the fact— I mean, with the podcasting stuff, things are evolving so quickly. There's so many tools that are coming out. We want to look at stuff quarterly just to be like— and we don't give it, uh, I mean, this, this is not a, a, a 2-day retreat. Yeah, this is an hour-long meeting. Um, okay, hey, what are you seeing? What are you seeing? What are you seeing? What, what's happening over here? What's happening over here? And everyone knows why they're coming. I tell people, if you do not come to this meeting with something, don't come. Um, if you don't have a question, if you don't see something different, don't come. It's that simple. Um, you should have something to offer. Um, the last is the, the cut, when the correction becomes a recurring opera— like, if it becomes operational debt for anyone else, and you've said, hey, you've made the correction, and it doesn't correct. Yeah, um, you've got to make sure that you're clear. This is why I always say once is not a pattern. Um, you've made the correction, you've made it clear, okay, things should change. You readjust to say, hey, you've— I, we— I thought we corrected this, I thought we were clear on this, what part aren't you clear about? And they say, oh no, I got it. The next time it happens, guess what? Sorry, bye-bye. Um, and it's to me like the, the thing that I have found and what this structure gives you is when you talk to people like that, no one's ever surprised when you fire them.

It should never be a surprise.

It should never ever. And we've talked about that previously. No one— and I've never fired someone where it was a surprise to them. I'm like, hey, you You did this wrong again. We— you know you're supposed to do it this way and you specifically did it that way. Oh yeah, I guess I was shortcutting. Okay, don't, don't do it again. It happens again, guess what? They know what they did. Bye-bye. It is the— I, I like the, the attitude of we are pruning for growth.

Oh, I like that. You love that.

You may have had to just chop off a ginormous branch, but if it's if it's preventing it from growing, guess what? You got to do that.

Yeah.

And that's, that's what you have to do. The other thing that I like to talk about real quick from a marketing perspective.

Oh, yeah.

Is you need to look at your marketing with the 3 C's. Also, the problem is, is so many people go to marketing with just, hey, we're going to market.

Uh-huh.

What, what are your goals? More business.

Specifically, can you be specific? Not just more business.

Correct. The other thing that I see with that is most people, they want more business next week.

Yes.

Because when, when, when do people up their marketing? When they're not busy.

Exactly.

As soon as they're busy, they completely forget about marketing until they get more capacity and then they're like, oh, hey, I need to do some marketing. It's one of those things where you need to, you need to look at the coaching, your marketing. Are you like, are you adjusting what you, what you already have. Yeah, um, correct. Are we headed down the wrong path with this? Um, do we need to really adjust, or are we just doing this completely wrong? Um, there's, there's that, there's the nudge, the big bump, and then there's the no.

Uh-uh.

Those are the three steps with marketing to me. Um, the, the most expensive, like, a leader's time is the most expensive marketing spend in the company. When we're doing, like, when we're doing the podcast like this, this is tremendously expensive for our businesses.

Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

And I mean, it depends on the day, because when I look at my hourly rate within the business, um, there's some days where it's about $1.98, but most days it is not.

Yeah.

So when when as a leader you're looking at that marketing, you have to be able to look at these 3 C's from that, and you have to be able to look at the, the data in that. That is the, the biggest thing with that. That being said, what happens when you have the promoted doer? We, we had a, we had a viral Instagram clip of you saying like, hey, if you, if you don't train them and you promote them, you're the idiot.

Yes.

Um, do— like, you promote someone, do you coach them into management, or do you— did you not make the correct decision? Like, how do you—

like, oh yeah, so you gotta—

I can—

yeah, can you tell we're dealing with this?

I was just about to say that was the— damn it, it's coming.

All right, so you have to slow down and you have to separate potential from placement. So promoted doer isn't automatically a failed manager. They're usually someone in the middle of an identity shift.

Yes.

So the first question isn't, was this the wrong decision? It's, did we prepare them for the new role?

Correct.

Because promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible. I will continue to say that.

Yes. So is that your ringtone now?

That is going to be my ringtone. It is our viral post. Promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible. Responsible. I will continue to say it again. So if you've done the clear coaching, okay, so you've realized, okay, maybe there's a capability gap. So that's when you're going to coach. That means you give them training, you give them structure, you give them support. Leadership is a skill set. Leadership is not a personality test.

No.

I know that sometimes people think like, oh, we'll just promote them and they will just grow leadership skills. It'll just happen as soon as we promote them.

We'll just water them.

The job title changes and they instantly, it doesn't work that way. It's not like, rarely does like the title change and all the things change at the same parent, like being a parent. That's like, we can debate on that too, but like there are very few things where it actually like happens and it just changes immediately. Scientifically as humans, we don't do that. So anyway, after clear coaching, if they're still resisting the role, they're avoiding accountability, they're defaulting back to doing instead of leading, then it becomes a fit issue, not a skill issue. And that's when you have to correct correct the placement. So for me, I look at 3 things, and they are: do they understand the role? Do they have the skills for the role? And do they want the role? Here's something else, Josh, that I think sometimes leaders do wrong when they promote people from, like, being a skilled doer into a leader role. They didn't ask them. I said, congratulations, you're getting promoted! And they're like, If there's silence or if they're like, what does that mean? If they're not like, if they haven't asked you how to move up, you might wanna ask them if they want to move up. And I have made that mistake and it was expensive. So it was really expensive. I mean, and if it's a no on that third one, there is no amount of coaching that is going to fix it. If they don't want to be a leader, they just want to be a skilled doer, Let them.

Yeah, no, they, they want— yes, they're gonna— because otherwise they're gonna go find the skilled doer job.

Exactly, exactly. Because you can develop a leader, but you can't force someone to want to lead.

I agree.

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And now back to the show.

So I totally agree. I mean, that to me is the, the biggest thing. And people talk about leadership being this inherent quality. Yeah, I've seen people that are really good doers that, I mean, have leadership skills.

Yes.

That once they're put into leadership, once again, fail because they don't have the training, they don't have the backing, they don't have the other items how to do it. They might be able to get a baseball team together, but they probably are not going to be able to lead your business.

Well, and there's a difference, too, between, you know, give them the ability to lead in a successful way small first. Give them small steps to see if it's even something they want to do. Because I've promoted people into leadership and they have thrived, and then I've promoted people into leadership and they did not want it.

The cautionary thing that I will say on that: do not mistake charisma for leadership. No.

Oh my gosh, no.

I've seen it so many times. So many people like, oh yeah, great leader. I'm like, no, they're charismatic. People are attracted to them. They couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag. No, people just— people are attracted to them, they're not following them. Yeah, totally makes sense. Totally makes sense with that. Um, we, I— we talk about my core values as a shared thing. Um, if the leader fails to cut a toxic person, I feel the leader is actually failing the shared success mission for the rest of the group.

Oh, absolutely.

How do you feel that go— like, how do you feel that happens though? Because most people are like, oh well, like, there's a toxic person there. Like, how does that fail the rest of the group?

So I think, as I talk about your core value—

no, I, I want to hear your take on it because this is why we do this podcast.

It is.

We get, we get there from different places, but we have the same, same ideas about it.

We do. So For success to truly be a shared thing, I think it means that the environment has to work for everyone, not just the highest producers. So I think that's sometimes where we're like, success is a shared thing as long as Betty in accounting is doing really well and she's making everybody happy because she does all the really hard work. No. So, but you have— the environment has to work for everyone. So if the one person that is the brilliant jerk or someone or anybody in the organization, if one person is creating tension, they're avoiding accountability, they're refusing to align, and you don't do anything about it, mm-hmm, your best people are gonna notice. So that success then creates some disengagement cuz they're watching and they're going, well, this person creates tension, this per— like, and, and Josh doesn't hold them accountable. So, you know, why, why am I here? So they, they disengage, they overcompensate, or they quietly exit.

It, it's funny because to me I see the toxicity from that is they may be a big chunk of production in so many cases. Why I found they are such a big chunk of production is because they're hindering other people in their production. Yeah, they have, they have gotten so many, uh, I guess I would say passes, or they get, they get the free pass for the operational piece, they get the free pass for this piece, that piece, or the other when no one else does. And that hinders everyone else in the organization. And I found that when you get rid of that toxic one, that brings everyone else up.

Yeah, or that's just their personality. You just have to— I'm sorry, that person snaps. She snaps at everybody, so it's okay. It's shared snapping. No, that's not how that works. Shared success requires shared standards.

So how do you think I would do if an employee snapped at me? I think that employee would be filled with regrets.

Be like, why was there a street fight in the middle of the podcast studio?

The funny thing is, is what— when I have had someone snap and scream at me, one time a guy was in my face just screaming at me, and I had someone that was watching it.

Yeah.

And they're like, the fact that you were so calm was pretty scary.

It is.

Like, they're like, he's like screaming and looks like one of those inflatable things in front of a used car dealership. 2 inches from my face, and I'm just standing there looking at him like, oh yeah, yeah.

As someone who has had lots of people, because of what I do, yell at me in different ways, I get it. That calm composure does freak people out.

Yes, it does. And I, I, it's one of the things that I, I truly love about it. Uh, that being said, uh, Like, to me, there's a couple of things that some people need to look at. So one is to— like, I love the audit your fires.

Yeah.

Um, I tell people, like, go back and look. If you've ever fired someone, why? And what is the paper trail attached to that? Are you having the same problem over and over and over and over again?

Yeah.

If you are, why are you bringing these people in? Um, it is the same thing, is that we all have that one friend that goes out with the same type of person every time, and they're always like, I don't know why it ended badly.

I've been married 4 times and I don't know what— yeah, I'm like, right, right, right. You don't want to know because we've told you.

You don't ask that. Like, I'm hoping that's a rhetorical question because you don't want the answer to that.

Yeah.

What's another takeaway?

I would say, I mean, really simple, it's Stop avoiding and start moving. So I think most of the time when it comes to correction, people just, they avoid it for so long until it becomes something that they have to cut. Like, because you never coached it, because you never corrected it, you don't have a choice but to cut it.

Yeah, I, I agree.

So stop avoiding, start moving.

No, love that. Absolutely love it. Because too many people, they're waiting for the sign. They're waiting for the big sign. No, it's not.

No, you know, the heavens are not gonna— oh, they already have. The fact that you're dragging your feet is the indication that I just need to do it.

There's not going to be a, oh no, no, no. I'm going to see what you're saying there. Clear is kind. Tell the employee where they are at. I am coaching you on this skill, or I am correcting this behavior. There is a very different tone between, between those. I am coaching you on this skill means, hey, I really want you to improve. I am correcting this behavior means stop being a jackass.

Yeah. Either one can be really helpful.

Yes.

Use them both.

One, I mean, and one, that tells people where they're at.

Yeah. And I would say, as you're being clear, documentation is not bureaucracy. It's a roadmap for success.

Yes.

Just document it.

Just write it down.

It makes it so much easier for when you have to deal with anything else. Or you have the roadmap of like, yay, we documented this. And then all of a sudden your behavior changed and you became a rock star. Thank you. It's a really good thing regardless.

Yes, yes. Michael Jordan did not make his high school basketball team. He practiced, he got coached. Yeah, I think he got a little better at basketball, just a little bit. Um, the other one too is the house on a bad foundation check. You cannot coach someone to fix a foundational problem that they are— A, if they are the one trying to shake the foundation, if they're like, hey, I'm gonna go in here rogue and I'm gonna build my own thing No, no, no, no, no, no. If you've got 50 construction workers building a house one way and you've got someone else is like, I'm gonna make it out of brick, um, does not work. In the same sense, the other piece of that foundation is your SOPs. Those are foundational to your company just as much as your core values, your— and your mission statement. Yeah, just completely foundational. Um, it— can you ever move someone from the cut list back to the coach list?

Yeah, but it's rare. It's really rare. And it's not emotional, it's intentional. Because, you know, people don't move back with promises, they move back with proof. So if someone's going to move back, you have to make sure that something material has changed. It's not because I feel like they're doing a better job. There's no feeling, there's only facts.

I feel like they're doing— I feel like they're doing a better job.

I feel like they're doing a better job. So, um, Josh, is a performance improvement plan coaching or correcting?

Yes.

I'm asking you the HR question.

Yes. I love it. It's yes, yes. Um, because the— like, that is your documentation. Yes. From my perspective, that is your documentation. One way or another, it is. It's the, it's the same document for two different things.

Yes.

Um, this is why we— I mentioned earlier, you have to tell them Hey, this is to help you improve. Or, hey, sign this because you're being an idiot.

That's it.

Make it easy. What's a red flag that says stop coaching and start booting them out the door?

Oh, I love this. That's lack of ownership. Yeah, it is. I mean, excuses, defensiveness, silence without change. Like, it's No, I didn't do that. Nope, nope, somebody else's fault. No, that generally becomes very quickly— you can tell. And it's not like a— that's not a feeling, that's a huge— you see it and you go, ooh, it's so funny.

I remember I made a change in my career when I started doing two things. I said yes, someone asked me something, I just say yes. Uh, the other thing was be like, oh yeah, no, that— I guess I did mess that up. Those changed my career completely. Now, there was a couple of places where that was not a viable option. If everyone is, I mean, if there's more finger-pointing there than like the, what was the gun scene in The Office when they're all pointing the finger guns at each other? Yeah. That to me is the, you can't do it there. And so you gotta make sure that your company is not that place.

[Speaker:CHRISTY] No. No one wants to be there.

No, no, no one wants to work there, including you. Correct, correct. We spend far too much time in our businesses to not want to be there. Yes. That being said, thank you everyone for tuning in. Uh, businessxpodcast.com, that is where people should go, correct?

They should.

Yes. Um, the next episode, Internal Competition. Competition versus collaboration. Oh, this is—

I'm excited for this.

I am excited for this one too, because like, you want some competition, but you also don't want so much competition that they aren't willing to collaborate. So most people just sit on their hands and ignore it and hope it works.

Yeah.

Yeah. Do us a favor, take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too. We will see you Very, very soon.