Emotions in the Workplace: Building Better Workplace Culture Through Empathetic Leadership

We hear from so many business owners who are struggling with high turnover, low morale, and teams that just aren't clicking.

And so often the real problem isn't the product, the service, or the people. It's the culture.

And that's why we would love to bring the business fix to your next event or webinar to help transform your team and to push your business forward.

Ready to fix your culture and unlock your team's potential? Visit us@businessfixpodcast.com and click Connect with us to learn more.

Chrissy suggested that we do an episode about emotions in the workplace, and I said, great. I can talk about both of them.

No.

Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the business fix. How's your week?

Good. I'm looking forward to falling.

Fall.

I'm like, just getting back into fall rhythm school, being in session, following a routine. Not always the routine I like, but it's at least a routine for where everybody's supposed to be at any given time. So that's what. That's where I am. What about you? What are you excited about?

It's. It's funny because when you said the fall things, I'm like, oh, yeah. No, I. There. There's, like, a lot less daylight, and I'm like, it's dark now. Why is it dark? And.

Oh, you're one of those people.

Yeah, well, it's the. And especially, like, with the motorcycles and y. I mean, we got to start thinking about deer running out in the middle of the thing. Twilight is like, not a. You're. You're kind of. Your head's already on a swivel. So I'm like, yeah, so. But what. I mean, nicer weather, a little bit cooler, a little bit easier to go out and do things. So. No, I mean, it's. It's. It's a good time of year. So we'll.

We'll.

We'll be good with this.

Football's back. Yay. Oh, yeah. Okay, fine for you. Yay. For me, I'm excited.

Good, good, good. Emotions.

Emotions.

Emotions. They're go. There we go. There we go. No, that wasn't one of the both.

Okay, what are the both?

I believe one emotion is. Oh, oh, okay. And then the other motion. There's excited. We all get excited about it. Like, especially as business owners.

Whatever.

We get excited about something, we're like, yeah. And then four. Four hours later, we're in the depths of oh. So addressing emotions. It's not Just a. It's not just a soft skill. This is like a core component of leadership.

Yeah.

And it's. It's interesting because it's trying to have that iq, the emotional intelligence to deal with emotions in the workplace. But you need this to build a. I'm going to use your favorite word. Resilient.

Yes.

Productive, healthy team. There. There's a big spectrum of this, too. There's different ways to deal with this. There is no right way.

No.

I think we look at these. I'm curious to find out, because I think we look at these, like, when we talk off the record, we're both over here, like. I mean, we're kind of the same.

Yeah.

I think we display very differently to people, too, though. Maybe it could be interesting. It could be. I'm excited for this. I'm excited. There's a couple of ways to do it. So. I mean, I know you're working on a platform that's about resiliency, both mental, emotional, all the other stuff. I'm empathetic.

Okay.

I'm enthusiastic, but maybe a little too numbersy. Is that the right word, numbersy?

Sure.

I am often told I am matter of fact, in my delivery. Yeah. There was. I was working with a business advisor from 10,000 small businesses the other day. He and I were interviewing people, okay. And they looked at the two of us, knowing that the two of us were in the same room. They're like, you guys, don't make anyone cry. Please do not make anyone cry. What can I do to maybe. I mean, it's me, but what can I do to maybe soften and like, I don't know, not. Not appear like this? Like R2D2?

Yeah. I mean, I will say this, Josh, I graciously disagree with you saying that you're. You're not emotional. I think matter of fact is absolutely okay in how you. You deliver things. Because there's a difference between being unemotional and being calm and grounded. And I would say that you are often just grounded. Not always the calm part, but the grounded part for sure. Maybe animated and energetic, but, I mean, I think people often confuse emotional regulation with emotional absence, and that's a problem. I can do that. Yeah. You're not. You're not absent. You just. Sometimes your emotions may be a little bit different or may look a little bit different, but that's okay. I mean, think as a leader. Being calm isn't about being cold and disconnected. It's about being anchored, and it's knowing that my team doesn't need me to match their anxiety or their excitement or their love. Whatever their emotion is, they don't need me to match it. They just need me to be steady while they sort it out. So some of this is if a team member comes to you and they're dealing with something on the emotional scale, I will say that I oftentimes in past have not always been empathetic and have been more matter of fact. And so it's even just catching it. I think sometimes we get into trouble as leaders when we suppress under everything, under the label of professionalism. It's like I have to be professional. So I can't smile or I can't tell you. I can't look at you like, what's going on? I can't. I can't emote at all. But being grounded doesn't mean that you don't feel. It just means that you choose how and when you're going to respond. And I think you do that.

I really. When you said I do it well, I'm like, can we just go ahead and stop the episode? There, we're done. Two minute episode. No. What's interesting is I do find that the way I react to situations is delayed.

Yes.

There was a car accident. I was 20, 24. Maybe I helped pull a family out of a vehicle on its. On its side that was running the camper, crashed him. And I'm just like, hey, I needed to go ahead and turn the vehicle off. I was like, I was giving instructions to getting on a roller coaster.

Process. Yes.

Yeah. Here's step one. Here's step two. Here's step three. I was on my way to my buddy's cottage and about an hour and a half later, my brain is like, yeah, that's okay.

That's a. That's a delayed response, which is good for you. That's good. It kept you there.

People are looking at me like, is this a robot?

No. No. I think you're able to be calm in the storm. And being calm in the storm is a gift, but it's only that way if you don't become invisible in the process. So you still have to be human and show up.

I agree with that piece. And it's. It, it's interesting because the thing that I see with the calm and the storm on that is the, like, emotions I always feel can go up but shouldn't necessarily go down.

Tell me more.

And I wanted to get your take on this. Sadness, aggravation, frustration can go up in a company, but shouldn't go down. Meaning that If I'm frustrated, my employees probably shouldn't feel that I'm frustrated. What is your take on that? Because we. We all know. I mean, we've seen that go sideways where someone's frustrated and suddenly all their employees are targets and they're all like. They scatter.

True.

And I feel like those emotions shouldn't go down. I say the same thing about complaints. Complaints in a company should never go down. They should go up.

Okay.

Go up to the point where someone can handle them. They handle them, and unemotionally take care of it. Okay, so, like, your take on that? Because that. That is an area where I'm like, yeah, okay, if I'm the owner, I eat the. The shit sandwich all the time and just, hey, everyone, here's rainbows.

No, we can't do that. I think that what you're really talking about is how emotional steadiness is a stabilizer for your team. So especially in moments when you're dealing with conflict or crisis or you're dealing with frustration in the workplace. And this is where tone can come into. If you never show emotion, especially like compassion, enthusiasm, frustration, you risk becoming unreadable. And so I think part of having a breadth of emotions, even if they do go up and then they have at some point in time, a baseline, I think it's important because if people can't read you, they stop trusting their own read of the situation, and then they don't want to read their coworkers, their customers. I mean, you don't want to create an eggshell effect because nobody knows what's going on. If you're always like, everything's great. You can't do that. Same thing with, like, everything's awful and that frustration piece. I think there are times, especially for me, where the team does need to know when I'm frustrated. They need to know that it doesn't define everything. But I think it is absolutely appropriate for you to show a level of frustration with someone, but you have to have a plan around it. You can't just scream and yell at them, say, I'm frustrated. You've got to have. And that's. I think, also, like, there's. I mean, strength is in presence. I mean, weakness is silence. And if you're not expressing where people are, it also goes to giving expectations. There are emotions tied to a lot of those expectations. I think oftentimes, as young leaders, you make a lot of mistakes around tone. And this is where there is so much nuance. And you can have the emotion. You can express the Emotion. It's also the tone and tenor of how you express it to your team members.

I like how you said you, you should have that. There should be some ups and downs. I worked with someone that I worked for them and they just always had this scowl on their face. And everyone knows one my, the, like the, my favorite saying is if I'm walking into a shitstorm, I want to know which way the wind's blowing. And when he comes walking into your office, you're like, oh. And then he's like, hey, you're gonna get a raise. And you're like, oh, okay, that's so hard, right? I mean, you just assumed when he was walking into your office, it's awful, right? It was the poop tornado. No, you just assumed that it was, but you had no idea what it was going to be. I mean, yeah, there was this, this constant just ugh. Around them and it was that lack of tenor to it that, that made the big difference. When you've got some people that, I mean, let's face it, you and I have spent some time looking at our emotions and being like, how do other people perceive this? How? And I know we've both spent time looking at this. Yes, most people have not.

Correct.

When you've got people in the office that may be going a little off center, maybe they've just found out the head of HR is sleeping with the CEO. I'm going to bring up that, that relationship episode that we did. How do you, how do you help guide people with those emotions in the workplace?

I think part of it is active listening, validating those team members feelings. I mean, so like you care enough to listen all the way through. I know it's hard because oftentimes we just want to either solve or we want them out of our office so we can get our work done. But it's really important. You have to care enough to listen all the way through. And you don't have to agree, but you at least have to listen until the end. Not when they just take their first breath, like until they're done. And if you can't do that, couple of strategies like move your hand below or say they can't see you. Twiddle your thumbs, do something, fidget so that you are actively listening. Ground yourself, put your feet on the floor. Figure out a way of like, okay, I'm going to count to three before I take a breath to interrupt them. And if they still keep going, then I, they're not done. I've got to listen. If, if you really can't focus, pull out a piece of paper, take notes. Because you're probably. They're probably telling you something and if it's emotional for them, it may be important that you understand the emotion, but then you also understand what they're trying to tell you so that you can work through it. And I will say this too, this is a huge point when dealing with family business transition because you may have emotions as the second generation or third generation of the business. At the first or second generation, you're just like, I just want them to shut up because I want them out of my office so I can get my job done, so we can get this transition so I don't have to see them again until Thanksgiving. Don't do that. Like, you've really gotta be willing to take a break and take a breath. So active listening, it means I'm not waiting for my turn to talk. I'm actually paying attention. I'm trying to understand what's underneath those words. And I think for those of us whose brains move really fast, it can be a struggle. I am better at it now. But I will tell you that there are days that I still fail at it. Oftentimes it's with my spouse.

Same.

Yeah. But most of the time people aren't looking for a solution either. When they're talking to you, they just want you to hear them. They're asking to be seen. So there are times where if I don't know what to say, three things that I will usually say is, wow, that sounds incredibly frustrating. And don't say, wow, that sounds incredibly frustrating. You have to say, wow, that sounds incredibly frustrating. You have to really work on your tone. I can hear how much that impacted you is another one. And then, you know, I didn't know you were carrying that. I had no idea that that was something that was going on. Thank you for telling me. And in your mind you're going, I wish you would shut up so you can get to the next thing. But don't do that because this is really, I mean, active listening and validating team members feelings will will make a huge difference between somebody saying I belong here and I can bring them problems and they will bring me solutions. Or I can at least have, I can park some emotions here so I can go do my job. And I don't want to work here because that person doesn't care about me.

I love those three things that you said. The it sounds frustrating how much it impacted you. I love those. And one of the reasons being is, is I Pride myself on being honest. I never want to lie to anyone.

Correct.

That does sound incredibly frustrating. Let's be honest. You did not start your business so you could spend your days buried in HR paperwork or Googling how to handle employee drama.

That's why I started Clarity hr, where your fractional HR team giving you real people, real support and real solutions. Whether it's compliance, headaches, hiring struggles, or just needing someone to take the people stuff off your plate, we've got your back.

So if you're ready to stop using duct tape and hope as your HR.

Strategy and finally get some peace of mind, head over to clarity hr.com that's clarity hr.com simple, clear, and here to help.

I'll give you a few seconds to go to the website while we get ready to get back to the show.

You don't. And in the back of your mind you say, I really don't care about it, but don't say it out loud.

Right. It's acknowledging that. Yep. I am sitting here and I heard what you said. It's not saying, I agree with it. It's not saying, oh my gosh, take the rest of the day off. It's not saying anything like that. It is just saying, look, you mean enough to me that I can shut up for 45 seconds and let you ramble on. I mean, which to me sounds like the most unemotional, terrible way to put it. No, but in the same sense, it is that emotional support that so many people need.

Yes.

For that. And it's just that to. To feel like they're heard, to be acknowledged in that, once again, that's not saying, oh my gosh, we're going to turn the company upside down because you had a bad day. It's saying, look, I. I hear you.

No, because validation creates safety and that safety creates the dialogue. And that dialogue is where your good culture lives. So if you saying, wow, that sounds incredibly frustrating. And they're like, yeah. And they keep going. And you're like, so what are some solutions that you can think of to help with that? That's the beginning of the dialogue and how you become more solutions, focused and you can move the person forward as opposed to, we're going to set a timer and we're going to complain about this for 10 minutes and then we're going to start talking about solutions. I do that with my kids.

Different culture.

Different culture.

Different culture. You have a little more control there. I. And it's funny you say that too, because to me, the other piece to that Is. And I love the. The count to three thing because that shows that you're listening to listen, not listen to answer.

Yes.

And so many of us, like me, I'm problem solver, like, oh, here's the problem. Great, we'll fix it.

Yeah.

If I count to three, that says, okay, I actually listened to the whole story rather than started solving this, like eight words in and say, oh, here's the solution. Shut up. So I can tell you what the solution is.

Yes.

Another one when it comes to that. So you like, we've all got people that like to come into our offices and vent and talk about things.

Yes.

How do you set it up so there's some boundaries there? So you're like, I mean, I'm assuming.

Yeah.

I don't think I've ever been in your office. And I mean, but you've been here in the studio and you do not see a leather couch with a wing chair sitting next to it for someone to sit in and take notes while the person lays on the couch as a therapy session. How do you set the boundaries to prevent. How do you set boundaries so you don't turn into their therapist?

Yes. So I will say we level set first in the perspective that boundaries don't restrict connection, they create the safety for it to happen. So first have that around. Like, I need to have boundaries, I need to have a wall around. No, that's not how this works. So in every healthy workplace, people need to three things. When it's okay to speak up, how to bring an issue forward, and what's expected in terms of tone and timing. So it doesn't matter how your organization is set up and how your office is set up, as long as you have those three expectations. And the other thing that I think is really important, and we do this at AUI and clarity. We do not weaponize feelings.

I like that one.

Yeah, we don't. We're going to use them to build, and that starts at the top. So if I can model calm and clarity even when emotions are high, the rest of the team is going to follow. And I mean, as a CEO or as a manager, there are times where you have to be able to de escalate a situation. You are going to deal with employees that are angry. You may be dealing with employees that are arguing with each other and they're coming to you saying, I need you to make a decision and fix this between the two of them. You're like, wait, let's think about what we need to do. Maybe separate in the situation. Let's create a time frame that we can have a conversation when we're not emotionally charged. I think the other thing that is important is we have the conversation around. We can feel deeply, but we still act with dignity. We are still going to treat each other with respect and there may be times where we get heated or elevated, but we're going to separate if we need to give ourselves a few minutes and come back and have a conversation again. So I think teaching individuals within your organization how to talk to each other is really important. There's a process and dialectical behavioral therapy, which I'm sure everybody's like, oh my God, she said therapy. But it's called Dear Man, Give fast. And it talks about how to have your needs met and how to get other people's needs met. And it's, it's just each letter stands for something. So like describing, expressing what you need, appearing competent, not apologizing, validating people's feelings. There's all sorts of different processes and tools in that. Dear Man, Give Fast. So it's something that we use and kind of model at AUI and clarity and kind of work through as we talk about resilient operating system. It's a large component of, of that process.

It's interesting you said the feel deeply and still act with dignity because it's, and it's one of the reasons why I think our podcast works well because like I, you and I can disagree on something and I look at you and I'm like, okay, she did not get to this willy nilly. She's made a conscious decision on this so you can say something. And I'm like, okay, I, I don't agree with it, but I'm not going to be like, well, that idiot.

You're wrong.

I'm not gonna be like, right, exactly. So it's, it's that making sure that there's, that cultures that people can look at that like, okay, just because you disagree doesn't mean that every single time someone is dead wrong. You just may have gotten to different places because you have different information.

Yeah.

And emotions can just register so differently with so many people.

Yeah. I think it's also about, you know, creating that psychological safety. And I know oftentimes it can be that, that, that can be an emotionally charged phrase, psychological safety. But I mean, really safe means emotionally honest with a little bit of structure and having some tone. It's really not, it's not a hard process. I mean, so you bring the truth, you don't bring the drama, and you Model the behavior that you want to see. So if you want your employees to throw things and scream and yell, do that. If you don't want that, don't.

You just describe my twenties.

But the other thing I'll say with psychological safety is like, it's vulnerability too.

100.

So it's telling them, hey, I don't have all the answers right now, or this is something that's a little bit more complex. It's going to take me time to solve. This is a challenge that we're dealing with. So I know when I am vulnerable appropriately. Because there are times it is not appropriate to be vulnerable. When you're in charge, it gives others permission to do the same.

Sure.

So I think when people, especially when they make mistakes or if we're dealing with innovation, where failure is a significant part of the innovation process and we know we have to embrace it, we also have to be willing to be vulnerable and say, you know, we tried this and I don't know that it's working. And then you have a conversation. Is it not working because we need to do more with this process? Is it not working because we have the wrong people? Is it not working because it was just a bad idea? Or do we need to workshop it a little bit more and keep going? Because we're at the bottom of the iceberg and we're building the base. If you're a small business owner navigating the world of marketing or looking to establish yourself as an industry expert, you already know the power of a great podcast.

But getting it all right from the sound of the strategy can be a headache. And that's where Pedal Stopper Productions comes in.

Right.

We are the team behind the business fix and Chrissy's Better Business for Small Business Leaders podcast.

One of the things I love about what you do, Josh, is that you're always willing to help out. And part of that is with your free 30 minute no pitch podcast consultation.

That's right. 30 minutes of our best tips, tricks and podcasting basics. Absolutely no strings attached. Just podcasting insights to help you crush your goals. Visit pedal stomper productions.com to book your no pitch call today. That is pedal stomper productions.com and now.

Back to the show.

There are many times. I love the vulnerability piece too, because to add something to that, there are many times as business owners where we cannot say, I don't know with your employees is not one of those times.

No.

The ability to say, I don't know. Let me get back to you.

Yes.

Will just get you so much in terms of that emotional connection with them. Yeah. Makes total sense.

There was an article that came out right around the time of COVID which I know, I'm sorry, you have to talk about it, but it was about. I know it was about decision making in the time of uncertainty, and it was telling your employees. I. First of all, for you, it was, I am going to make a decision with the information that I have, and I am going to trust that I am making the right decision because this is all the information I have at this time. That was the first piece. But then the second piece to that was being willing to tell your employees you don't know. So having confidence in yourself that, you know what, I may not have all the answers, but I'm going to do my job and I'm going to make the right decision for right now, in this moment. And if I need to change my mind, I will. And then I'm also going to tell everybody I don't have it all figured out, but I'm going to make the decision with the most research and the most information that I have. And so we're going to do this together.

That 100% makes sense. 100% makes sense. From the operation side, it's interesting because I always look at two things on it.

Yeah.

What do the numbers say? Which sounds heartless as hell.

I mean. No, it doesn't.

There's a reason why I go to.

To that. Yeah.

Is because if you have the data to back you up, you can go to someone and say, look, I know you're feeling this way. The numbers say this. Let's talk about this.

The reality. Numbers reality.

Correct. And so it's the ability to have that conversation. It is that ability to have that directness with someone and say, look, this is where the numbers are pointing me. I know you feel that something else is the right answer. I got there via here.

Yeah.

How did you get there? Now, I found when you have the numbers, more often than not by a long stretch, the numbers are right.

Yeah.

You cannot just go to people, though, and say, nuh, look here.

No, you have to shape that path.

Correct. So. And it's, it's. Once again, it's that tone. It's that, it's that looking at how you present it. And it's. It is going to people with that openness of saying, I am more than willing to listen to your perspective on this because oftentimes I've talked to some of my employees and they've said no, I know the Numbers say this, but I'm seeing this.

Okay, okay.

That may be a little ahead of where we're at. Something good to look at. Let's look at the numbers differently. Let's, let's. Let's change the angle on this. So that is another thing. That is one of the big things. The other thing that I look at with that is when I'm looking at how to handle some of those big decisions.

Yeah.

How is this going to affect people? And I. I spend time on it is. This is not these. I mean, you have to look like if we change how we do this. We recently moved some projects from one person to the other, and it took some work away from someone. Before I did that, I had to look at that and be like, okay, how. How are they going to perceive this? How are they. How is this going to. Because that's an emotional thing.

When it is.

Look, you've built this. Thank you. Now they're going to do it.

Now they're going to do it because you're better at other things. And I need you to do these types of things.

And that is where we ended up with. That, to me, was a big portion.

Yeah.

I spent as a. One of the. I guess I don't want to say it was one of the biggest mistakes I made in my career, but early on, I spent a lot of time being right instead of being effective.

Same. I'm not gonna lie. Absolutely.

There were so many times where, I mean, I remember screaming matches with my boss. Yeah, I was. I was. I was the top salesman. I mean, I was always in the top five out of 200 salespeople. And they're like, you need to change what you do. And I'm like, no, I do not. Just because I don't fit in your little bell curve here doesn't mean that. And it was one of those things where just neither one of us was willing to budge. So it turned into a screaming match. Which. The emotional level, especially of me at age 20, filled with 10 times the testosterone and everything like that. Yeah, yeah. Was.

Got.

It got boisterous.

Yeah.

Maybe that's the right way to put it. So, yeah. That looking at how it will affect others and their emotional state, are they still going to want to work here? Are they still going to be looking at these types of things? Are they still going to be happy with this? Have we set up another enough other emotionally, like, good and validating things for them at the end of the day for them on Friday to say, yeah, I. I want to come Back here Monday. That's, that's a big piece of it.

Well, and I think too, when you grow your business, when it's just you, you can argue with yourself and that's fine. I don't care.

I still lose.

I generally too. But when you start adding more people, more layers of personalities, the amount of time that you have to spend while and thinking like, well, this is just fluff. And it's like, no, it's a key part of operations and how I deliver a message, how do I strategically shape the path? There may be times, Josh, where you gotta be like, okay, I've got to make this their idea. How do I make it their idea? So that, that way I know the adoption curve will be so much higher. You have to think about. It may be easier to just interrupt that person and say, just get out of my office or I really don't care about your feelings right now. But then the emotional wake that you have to deal with to get everything back on track. Sometimes it's just easier to be patient or have that sweaty 10 minute conversation nobody wants to have. That's the other part. We talk about emotions in the workplace. You've got to deal with your own dread, resentment, not wanting to have a conversation, procrastination of let's have that conversation and then let's move forward. I think that emotional regulation in the workplace is really important, especially as a leader, because you not only just set the tone for the organization, but it also sets the pace for the organization. How fast you can move, how fast you can adopt. New technology, new ideas, new products, innovation.

Let's talk about personal emotions that come into the workplace.

Okay, sure.

The emotion Chrissy is feeling right now is dread.

Yay.

I identified that correctly. At least it sounds like I did. Like, to me, I look at so many scenarios that have been handled extremely poorly through my career, both as me as an employee and as me as a, as a manager. Like I've seen, I've worked with someone that was going through a very ugly divorce. You're kind of like, okay, how do we work through that? I remember I had, this is a while ago, I had to put my cat to sleep.

Yeah.

I got home 3 o' clock in the morning, told my boss, I said, I sent my message at like 7 o' clock in the morning. I'm like, look, how to put my cat to sleep. Sorry. The cat, she was my best friend. She greeted me at the door every single night. I said, I'm taking the day off. I didn't get home till 3 o' clock in the morning, he goes. And his text response to me was, it's just a cat, get in. And I was like, oh, I think I'm done working here.

Yeah.

So there's got it like, to me, what are some of the things that you look at when it comes to finding this balance? And I know this is, this is a really ambiguous question.

It's very ambiguous.

But like, I mean one of the things that I look at like when I, when I looking at like emotion.

Yeah.

If we don't handle this correctly, if someone's got a personal issue, like, sure, I can make them come into the office, but if they're going to be absolutely useless, what's the point?

Yeah.

Are they going to drag other people down in the process? Are they going to like, if, if someone had a, if maybe it's someone that likes to gossip and there's something that's going on in their life, are they going to pull every other employee aside throughout the day to have that talk about that? What are the things that you look at to try and like guide some of those conversations? Because you can't just be like, hey, look, I know you're in the midst of a really ugly divorce, but buck up and get to work.

I mean you can, you can say.

That, you can say that, but how do you, how do you, like, how do you handle that? How do you, how do you approach that?

Yeah.

What's the. Once again, I know there's some listening to that, but how do you. Where, where do we draw that line when the personal emotions starts to seep into the professional side.

Yeah. So I think part of it is you can still have empathy and you can still validate some of those emotions, but you also can have expectations. So if someone has a death in the family, we have bereavement. If someone has another issue that they're dealing with, again, we talked about in our organization we cry over pets and people. So it's different. People's situations may dictate how you respond, but there is a level of expectation at times as well. And there has to be that line of. This is what our employer expectations are. This is what our handbook says. This is what, this is what we need to do. We have a deadline and it is a non negotiable deadline. And I'm very sorry that you lost your cat, but your cat passed away six months ago. We need to get this done. I think there's.

Oh, the plot twist.

There are those moments where, I mean, because again you have to remember, Josh, I lost my first husband at a time in our organization where we were in a major crisis and transition. So I can be. I have a lot of empathy for people that are dealing with difficult situations. At the same time, I can tell the difference between when someone is using that as a true reason that is not empowering them to move forward and an excuse for why I just don't want to get my work done. And so as a leader, you can see the difference. And so if you don't have the ability to see the difference, I would say consult with someone who can. Usually your HR person can do that. And they're usually very empathetic and can say, you know, I'm very sorry that you're dealing with this situation. Here's some resources that may help you. At the same time, we pay you to be here and we need you to be here. And when we say we need you to be here, we need you to come with your full self. And if you can't come with your full self, then let's have a conversation about what this potentially looks like, because maybe you need to take leave. Maybe you need to take some time and pursue a different career. Maybe you need to take a sabbatical. If you don't take a sabbatical, we might exit you. But here's. And again, it's not about being heartless. It's about really being like, you know, if someone keeps. Cannot do their job because they are grieving so heavily, they need time off or they need. They need space away from the organization, if they're like, well, I'm just. I'm overwhelmed. Why are you overwhelmed? Because I have three things to do. You have three things to do all day. You have three things to do in this minute, you have three things to do in this hour. Help me. Tell me more like, then there. That's the discovery question. And then you can kind of have that space around. You know, how do you emotionally regulate. And if you have individuals in your organization that are not good at emotional regulation, that's when you're going to build some emotional intelligence training into your organization. Because oftentimes what you will see is if they cannot model the behavior at work, it's something at home that is probably pushing the buttons up. And I don't care if you learn it in therapy or you learn it in some way in a corporate setting. Those skills transcend whether it's work or life. So we're going to learn these skills at work because we want everybody to get along and be productive and be able to move forward. And the things that you're dealing with with commerc conversations, how to have, how to give feedback is a great example. How to have a crucial conversation with someone. If you train them, train all of your team members and how to do that, they're going to take it home and hopefully that's going to help solve some of their problems there that they're not going to bring to work.

I like that. Yeah, don't.

Yeah.

If you help solve the problems at home with something that helps it work, boy, have you just a lot of birds. One stone.

It is. And that's not solving the problems is not saying, well, I just think you should leave them. Or a lever like don't, don't sell. No, you should just cut your kids off. No, those are not. The conversation like that is not our job in an organization. Our job is to say, you know, how can we have conversations so that we can create boundaries? We need to create them around work. So if you use them at home, great. But these are the things that we need to do.

You're going to be better at that conversation than I will.

Well, I've spent a lot of time in tone and I think that's the other part. When we had to transition our family business business and we went from second generation to third generation, we went to therapy so that we could learn how to talk to each other because we were not. I did not have good tone.

No, no, I can believe that.

I had to learn because it's just direct. What do you mean? You're emotionally tied to this business. You aren't here every day. You're here like one day a week and you're like, I can't leave. You already have. Like, I couldn't say that I did. It got me in really big trouble. It took longer to transition because then they dug their heels in. I mean, there's just things you don't want to do. Same thing. Like if you're in, if you serve in a non profit setting and you're in a board meeting, you cannot say some of the things that you would normally say, oh, gosh, in your head to everybody else. People can get a little emotional.

I. Yeah. Being on a number of boards, I have learned very quickly that sometimes it's. Once again, it's better to be effective than it is to be. Right.

Yes.

That being said, we've got a whole slew of actionable stuff out of this.

You do? Yes.

So lead with a combination of empathy and data. That's the first one to me. Look at both things. Realize not only what does the data say, but how is the data going to affect people? What's your piece to that?

I would say continuing to develop your emotional competence. So whether you're doing it for yourself or you're doing it for your team, providing that training, providing resources to help employees and managers build that emotional intelligence, it is the soft skills that really get your business moving forward.

Yeah. For me, the other one too is I loved it when you said, if you want your employees throwing stuff, throw stuff yourself. Model the behavior that you want. I worked for some irate people and I noticed I was pretty irate at the same time. And I was like, oh, okay. It's okay for them. I guess it's okay for me.

And don't ignore it.

No.

Also address those issues in the workplace whether you want to or not. We have a lot of resources and other podcasts you can talk about, listen to about how to address those issues.

Yeah. One of our most common ones is like addressing how to fire people. You guys love those episodes. So the quick shot topics.

Yes. All right. So you want me to go.

Yeah, well, yeah. I was going to ask you.

Okay.

You can simple daily practice.

Yeah.

That you can adopt to it. Like, I'm going to use emotional resilience, because I know resilience is your thing.

It is.

And intelligence.

Yes. It's asking yourself, what can I learn from this?

Oh, I like that.

Yeah. Instead of reacting immediately, what can I learn from this situation? Yeah.

That makes. Makes perfect sense.

Yeah. So from an operational perspective, what's one clear metric or indicator that a business's emotional culture is unhealthy and needs immediate attention. What's the red flag?

Telephones.

Oh.

If someone doesn't pick up the phone, your company's got a problem. And I've been on both sides of that.

That's so good.

Yeah. I mean, if your company is emotionally just stunted.

Not it.

Right. If. I mean, I've watched people, their phone's ringing and they look at it, they aren't doing anything else. They just sit there and stare at it. Like it's only three more rings and it stops. Yeah. That to me is the emotional. That it's. It's a data driven emotional red flag.

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Yeah. That being said, thank you everyone for coming along in the ride this. It's important. It's sensitive, which is why Chrissy did most of the talking. Thank you for your insights on it. Chrissy. You can find more resources you can find past episodes businessfix podcast.com all the social medias at the Business Fix, a review and a subscription go a long way to enable us to help others. Next week we are talking about how the customer experience starts with you. How was that? Was that good?

Yeah.

Do me a favor, take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too. We will see you very soon. Sam.