Leadership Skills for Tough Talks: How Difficult Conversations Improve Workplace Communication

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Clarity HR. Fractional HR. A lot of people call you in to have difficult conversations.

Yes.

You also do a podcast with me.

I do.

I believe this makes Chrissy the ultimate authority in difficult conversations, which, take a guess, that's our topic this week. Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the business fix. When it comes to difficult conversations, business owners, there's a few reasons why we have some of these. There's performance issues, maybe a difficult conversation with a client. We've all had to break up with clients. It's not me, it's you.

You're the problem. Right. Yeah.

Layoff. It is. It's never easy, but it's a part of what we've got to do. How do we prepare for those? We're going to talk about directness, empathy. I mean, we both, I mean, those are core values for both of us. I mean, really in the way we do things. It's being direct, it's having empathy. We get empathy, I think, from different places. So I, to me. And we see it different ways.

Yeah.

And there's a different, very different method of delivery, I think is the polite.

Way to say this between the two of us.

Yes.

Probably.

We're both very direct. You are kind and caring. Direct. I am direct.

Kind and caring. Direct has taken a lot of time to get to, but yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So really, for anyone listening or watching it this week, it's. We really want to educate people on how to do this, how to do this with confidence, how to, how to approach these things. You do this a lot.

Yeah.

I don't even know if I should ask a question. I should just go, just start. They know what we're talking about.

Well, couple quotes, couple things that I lean on. So Gay Hendrix, he wrote a book called the Big Leap and he says behind every communication problem is a sweaty 10 minute conversation you don't want to have.

That's where you get that from?

That is. Yes.

I Love that.

Yes, it's. And it's extremely important. And then the next one is from Brene Brown, and she talks about to be clear is to be kind.

I've heard you say that one multiple times, too.

So, I mean, just human nature is. You know, we avoid short, uncomfortable conversations. I mean, because we don't want to deal with them because they're sweaty and they're uncomfortable and ick. But because of that, because you're like, I don't want to have that conversation. And you avoid it. You create confusion, resentment, distrust, and a whole host of other problems for yourself because you're just not willing to do the thing. So when your gut tightens around a conversation, it's likely the one that you need to have. Josh.

Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. It's so funny when you look back on those conversations. Yeah. You're like, oh, was that. Yeah, that sucked.

Yeah.

Did it suck worse than the six months of what you're gonna do?

And that's it. Delay makes the issue feel bigger. It makes it stronger. It gives it more hair. It just. It makes it moldy, stinky. All the things we're going.

There.

We are. Because it's like, just deal with it. It's like, oh, I'm not gonna deal with that. Prompt. Like, I've got a little piece of mildew in the basement. I don't want to deal with that. And then you go down, like, three weeks later, and it's like two thirds of the wall. It's like, you know, if you would have just dealt with that, like, there's a lot of lessons for life and deferred maintenance in your home, your office building.

I guess there are. I guess there are.

I mean, you have to remember, too, that, like, I think oftentimes people think that direct communication is harsh. And that's not. I mean, direct communication. It's not about being harsh. It's about being honest and grounded and. And really being willing to have those conversations. I mean, avoidance may feel something. Like. It may feel like it's a gentle thing. Oh, I just. I don't want to hurt their feelings, or it's really not even. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want the feelings that that conversation gives in me. So I don't want to have that conversation. But you have to understand that avoidance. I mean, it leads to disappointment and disconnection. Do the thing.

It's interesting you say that, because when you say, I don't want to hurt their feelings. What? I don't think so. Many people realize is that may not be mutual.

Exactly. And the other part is I think people forget that you can be kind and you can be direct at the same time.

Sure.

How you validate someone's feelings, how you have that conversation, how you do the thing, can be both. And I think that that's, I think that's the hard part for people is they think, well, if I'm going to be direct, I'm going to hurt their feelings. There may be times where I will hurt your feelings, but sometimes it's just got to happen. That's okay. Leadership means you have this, you have those conversations. Sometimes you hurt their feelings, but you do your best to have it with empathy and you do your best to have it with consistency. We've talked about consistency several times within our podcasts and I think that that is when you're talking about difficult conversations, it's also about being consistent with them.

I almost liken this a little bit. To punch them in the face and get it over with.

Or just commit violence.

No. Or just like poke at them every day for the next six months.

No.

Just right. Punch them in the face, get it over with.

Yes, that's it. Or because the other part is if you're avoiding it, you could also be creating resentment within yourself. Oh, sure. If you're creating resentment within yourself, that is a problem. If you've got someone who you could have this sweaty 10 minute conversation and maybe that person's going to change their direction, they're going to change performance, or they may decide that they're not the right person for the organization, they may exit. What is worse, you're going to limp along and just like drag dead weight because you don't want to have a difficult conversation. Or you're going to be uncomfortable for a minute and that person could soar or that person could exit. Either way, you're no longer in limbo.

Right. You have an answer?

Yeah.

I'm willing to bet you have a framework for this.

I do. And it's not just. It's not my framework. I would love to take credit for this framework, but it's not. It came dialectical Behavioral Therapy. So dbt. I said therapy. Everyone's going to turn off the pocket. No, she's going to talk about therapy. But it's called Dear Man. Give fast.

No, they've probably realized you may have been through some form of therapy and I'm the one that needs it.

It's possible. Well, I will say this. Out of all of the things that I have learned I've done a lot of professional development. I've done a lot of inner work. This is, I would say, one of the most impactful frameworks that I have because, Dear man, give fast. So it stands for. There's a. I mean, dear stands for different things. So describing the situation is d. Expressing how you feel, asserting what you need, reinforcing why it matters. So dear is the how we say the words. So an example is describing, I noticed our last two projects have gone past the deadline. Expressing it's creating stress for the team and affecting us. So really giving that information, asserting, I need clear timelines and a more proactive update from you. Reinforcing, I want to keep working well together, and that requires transparency. So when you run all those things together, it's. I noticed our last two projects have gone past the deadline. It's creating stress for the team and affecting trust. And I need clearer timelines and more proactive updates. So I want to keep working well together, and that requires transparency. So it's saying the words and then man is how you say the words. Being mindful, appearing confident, negotiating if necessary. So staying on point. Don't spiral. So a lot of times, business owners, business leaders, like, hey, how's it going? What you doing? I noticed that you've been late on some of those projects. Is everything okay? You know what? Let. I'm gonna go take this call. I'll be back 15 minutes later. So I was talking about those projects. What projects are you working on right now? And then they've completely lost. So you've got to be mindful. You gotta stay on topic, appearing confident. Even if your voice shakes a little bit, you know what you're talking about. You know that these projects have been late. You know that this is causing a problem. Don't be like, hey, projects have been kind of late. Like, don't do that. You know, don't act like you don't know. And then negotiate it. Here's. Here's the part where I think people lose. It is. It is. You know, I'd like to agree on a check in cadence for us to get this on track. And if they're like, well, I don't want to. And you're like, too bad, I'm the boss. Like, there's ways for you to have that approach it as a conversation. So that's Dear man. And then give fast is kind of preserving the relationship. So the first part is getting your point across, getting your needs met. And the second part in give fast is preserving the relationship. And so Giving stands for gentle, interested, validating, and easy manner. In family business, a lot of times, the validating is what is so important to get what you want accomplished to preserve the relationship. You may not like having to validate, but too bad if you're working with a sibling or you're working with your parent. I can understand how that might be hard for you. Like, just simply, you're not saying like, I completely agree to validate does not mean that you agree. And I will tell you, in all of my coaching and training and development and the therapy that I went to when we troun. When we transitioned our family business, validation was the hardest part of the learning process for me because. And it may be for you too. To validate means that I give you control and I say it's okay. That's not what it is.

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I'll give you a few seconds to go to the website while we get ready to get back to the show. No, no, it's. It's not. And it took me a long time to realize that.

Yeah. So really saying like, wow, that must be hard. Or I know that wasn't your intention to create an issue for me within our organization that now I have to fix. Like, it's just making sure that you. You hear them. Validation is I hear you. Doesn't mean I agree, doesn't mean I support. Doesn't mean I'm going to solve. So it's how you deal with it. So giving fast is all about keeping your tone. And then fast is fair. So being honest with people without stacking the deck. So it's like, I understand why this is an issue for you. This is what we need moving forward, but not saying, and I'm going to give you this and this. And it's not. It's not about me winning. You apologize when needed. You do not over apologize. So that's the other part about fast. So be fair. No apologies unless necessary. Sticking to your values. We don't negotiate what our values are. Respect is one of ours, and I want you to show up that way. That's a great way you talk about, you know, what are our core values. Let's make sure we're sticking to them. And then being truthful, which is, I think, one of the most important outside of validation, is you don't dance around the issue. You say the thing.

Yeah, no, I. I love the structure of it.

Yeah.

I truly do. I have to go back to something.

Okay.

In the Dear man piece.

Yes.

When you started the stay on point.

Yes. The don't spiral, don't spiral.

One line came into my head. It was, hey, Peter, how's it going about your TPS reports? Last office space.

Yeah.

100%. Yes. As soon as you said, stay on point, stay on point, all I heard was, hey, Peter, just went straight there.

Yes. But for those business owners or leaders that have, you know, maybe some issues with attention or if you get shiny object syndrome in the middle of your Dear man, give fast, we have a problem. Like, you've got to be able to stay on point. We're talking, like, five sentences. And this is something that's transferable not just in your business, but it's in your daily life, too. Because we can say this like a great example that I use with Dear man, give fast for people when they're like, tell us how this works in your daily life. I was like, okay, we can talk about the war of the suitcase in our home. So I am a person that when I travel, I bring my suitcase home, and I unpack my suitcase very quickly. My wonderful spouse is someone that will live in that suitcase until we travel the next time, and it may be months. So what I say is, you know, why unpack? Why unpack? Why? We're just gonna pack it up anyway. You know, it's August, and we don't have a trip until October, but, you know, it will just sit in the middle of our room like a landmine. It's not like our bedroom isn't that big. And so I often will trip over said suitcase and swear at it. So, you know, this is the conversation that we have. Like, hey, Steve, I noticed that your suitcase is out. And I understand that, you know, you're probably planning on traveling in a couple of months, but I would really appreciate if we could kind of work on putting those things together. Is there a way that I can help you do that? Is there a process that we need to maybe put in place so that we. No Longer have a landmine in the middle of our bedroom. And. And he goes, oh, I just put the suitcase away. And I'm like, yes. So it's those types of things. Like, this is transferable, dear man, give fast is a transferable skill. You use it with your spouse, you use it with your kids, you use it with community leaders.

This sounds very. This sounds direct from the archive.

It is.

And recent.

And recent.

This is a. Sorry, Steve, the laundry's out there. It is, it is.

So let's talk about from an operations perspective. Perspective. You know, sometimes these conversations can get bogged down in emotion, which I'm sure you're just really good at. May lack clear information. So what's the best way business leaders can ensure they have all their facts straight and approach the conversation from a place of practicality and logic?

It's so funny because for me, like, hearing your dear man, give fast, you are so good at going out and finding the things to say. This is what I need to move things forward. I have been pretty good about screwing them up multiple times and then going back and saying, oh, why did that go wrong? And what do I need to do to fix. The biggest thing to me is the be honest piece. If it is a difficult conversation. It is. It has to be very honest. Doesn't necessarily. I mean, it should be frank, but it. It has to be very honest. Even the most, like, imperceptive people.

Yeah.

Can tell when you're lying. It doesn't matter how good you think you are unless you're, like, actually diagnosed as psychotic. No, you people can tell. The problem that I see so many leaders have in this is the. I don't know, you have to say it. If something goes wrong, let's say in. In a service department. Excuse me, Something goes wrong. And they say, well, this happened to this. And why didn't that happen? You can't pull that answer out of your butt.

No.

You have to be willing to say, I don't know. We need to look at that.

Yes.

I know so many leaders that don't have the gumption to do that because they feel like, well, this will make me look weak. You know what makes you look weak is when you say it was this, and then they go back and they find out it was that.

Yeah.

Honesty is the number one rule for. I mean, any conversation like that.

Well, I will tell you, as you ascend into higher levels of leadership, higher levels of complexity, the more often that you say, I don't know, it increases.

Yeah.

Oh, with your level of title we.

Have to figure this out.

Absolutely.

We have to figure this out, and it shouldn't be a problem. And as soon as you say, I don't know, you either need to look at someone else in the room who does know or say, we need to figure this out.

Exactly.

That's it. As soon as, as soon as you say those two things, suddenly the. I don't want to say the responsibility is off of you, but the pressure is off of you. You can still be the rock star. Most people will look at you more of a rock star because you have the confidence and badassery to be like, I don't know.

Don't know. We're gonna figure it out though, right?

If you are confident enough to say, I don't know, no one's gonna question your leadership. Next up. The thing that I find when it's a difficult conversation that so many people forget is it is a conversation. It is not just you talking at someone.

Do you mean it's soliloquy?

Right. Right. This is not you with your script up to the right. Right. This is not this, this is not a speech. This is. This is.

It's not a monologue.

No. Right.

It's a dialogue.

Correct. It is a conversation. And in that you have to listen to listen not to answer. I see it so many times. People are like, they listen to this, this conversation. It's a difficult conversation. And they listen to be like, ready to fire the next thing.

Yep.

Take your time. Relax. The, the, the more cool and calm you are, the, the, the better you are in that difficult conversation.

Yes.

I, I have a great soccer story about this. I still remember I was mid-30s, playing open co ed soccer. This 18 year old push me. I, I had. Right. I was furious. I got up, I got about 2 inches from the kid's face and I just said that was probably a bad idea, son. The look of absolute terror on his face. Because I didn't get up all mad.

Yeah.

I got up very controlled.

Yes.

Very calm. He was like, oh, oh, this guy's got full control of all of that violence. Um, when, when you listen to. Listen. When you take those times to pause, it shows that you have control over the conversation. And once again, it shows that you're actually listening and then that person is being heard.

Yes.

That's the validation piece that you talked about. I'm saying, yes, just acknowledge that they're heard. Yep, I hear you there. That's what it takes. That's the validation piece.

Composure is power 100%.

I had a Big problem. When I was younger, I've said this before, I wanted to be right. And in many cases that was at the cost of being effective. Yeah, I raised, I mean, the volume level of my. Nuh. Let me show you the data. Screaming that does not help.

No, no.

Sometimes you have to realize, even if members are on your side, yelling them isn't effective. No, you're right. But it's not necessarily effective. So you've got to make sure you do that. The other thing and I. It's a parallel to what you said in terms of the. The show you're open and the negotiate if you have to, do not waiver, do not waffle. But in the same sense, you have to be open to changing your opinion.

Yes.

That is where that cool, calm, collected, rather than answering like every four seconds. And oh, oh, yes, I gotta, I gotta sit back, think about it, process it, be like, oh, they have a good point there. It's why. And it. To me, it's one of the reasons why our podcast works. I realize you got there not just by some willy nilly. Nuh. There was a thought process. Even if I disagree with you, there was a thought process behind it that I should probably take a look at.

You need.

Yeah. You need to treat every single one of your employees with that same respect. They didn't just get there willy nilly. There's a reason why they're there. Listen to it, figure out what it was, and work with that. If you start to waver, though, and you bounce around, as you said, once again, all control is lost. There's no clarity.

No.

Where the hell are we going? I came in your office expecting to get yelled at. I did get yelled at. We had donuts. And then I got yelled at again. What the hell is going on?

Or if you're giving a performance conversation, you. You say the things that they need to do, but then you. You don't reinforce what needs to happen and you're again having donuts. And having like, that was something my dad was notorious for. And I mean love. I mean, adored my dad, but he would have a performance conversation with somebody and they would leave the office thinking they were the best employee on the planet and nothing would ever change. Change. And we're like, you do a really good job of making people feel really good when they're not doing the things. How do we learn from this?

I love that. I absolutely love that the one thing that this has to happen before a tough conversation ever happens. If people don't think you care a tough Conversation isn't going to help. Oh, gosh, now they have to know you care before and not five minutes before. You have to build up a rapport with these people to say, look, I am here with your best interest in heart. I am here to help you move forward. I am here to help you gain skills. I am here to help you gain things.

Yes.

If you haven't done any of that, every, like, even the tough conversation is just going to suck no matter what. If they have a feeling of, like, this is in the best interest, then they will probably go along with it. Don't try and change them into a friend during the conversation.

No. Know the role. Know where everybody sits in the conversation. And if you are not good at giving feedback, if you're not good at having a difficult conversation, you need to script it and you need to practice it and you need to have notes around. Like, there are, there are ways to go prepared. And I know that there are times where they're like, well, it's obnoxious to go to notes in a meeting. Not if you stink at this and you don't know how to communicate so much worse. It is perfectly fine for you to have notes in a meeting. And whether that is a family conversation, a family business conversation, a performance, it doesn't matter who the individual is that is in the conversation with you. Go prepared. Winging it is not a strategy. I know that oftentimes people are like, well, I'll just get in the moment and I'll see what it. What happens, how things feel. No, no, no, no, no. We don't do that. When we have to have a crucial and serious conversation about something, we go prepared. We don't wing it.

That's excellent. Into my, My next point. Yeah, have your shit together. Yeah. That is the only way I know how to put it. And there, there's two pieces to this. Okay? First off, it can't be rushed. Don't like if you just hear news about something that you need to have a difficult conversation with an employee about. Don't just be like, this happened five minutes ago. Bob, come into my office now. No, that doesn't work. It can't be rushed. Do the research there. Any difficult conversation requires research. Make sure you've done the research. Lay it all out in front of yourself. Have. I love your piece about notes. There have notes, have numbers, have the handbook. How many times do people have conversations where there's no knowledge of what like, hey, you, we're. We're firing you and they can't open it up to the handbook and be like, here's why. Yeah, you need, like, have that page in the handbook bookmark saying, dude, you were late 10 times. Here it is in the handbook. Difficult conversation. I'm sorry. Here it is.

It's all a difficult conversation when you know what the guidelines are. It's not very true.

Very true. The other thing is to know the topic. I mean, if it's an operational thing, it's tough to do that investigation. But make sure that you've talked to the right people before you have that. And in some cases, you're going to need to talk to multiple people just to figure out what's going on on the same venue with it. Though another piece to that is to I the. The only people that should ever have to eat a shit sandwich in your company is salespeople, and that's because they're going to go out and clients or prospective clients are going to feed them shit sandwiches all the time. Never, ever, ever. I remember sitting in front of a CEO that I used to work for, and he specifically said, I'm going to give you the shit sandwich. So here's the good. Then I'm going to tell you the bad, and then I'm going to tell you some good. I'm like, why. Why are we here for you to. To. To first off tell me that my job is threatened and then at the same time pat me on the back. You want to talk about completely lacking any clarity whatsoever? That is the shit sandwich.

Yeah. People forget. They forget what's in the middle.

Right.

They're going to remember the great parts, the front and the end.

Right? Right. They're not going to realize that what they just ate, they're going to be like, oh, put a little mustard on it, and we're fine. How's I. How's that for the vis today? Do you feel better now?

Oh, yeah.

I can see everyone that's listening to this in their car kind of getting that ew look on their face. For some, this is going to be one that I think that we're going to be a little different on. Where's the intersection of directness and empathy? Chrissy's like, I need to have a tough conversation with Josh. Go ahead and pay attention, everyone.

Well, here's what I'll say. I'll say that tact and truth are not opposites. They're partners, they work together. And you can. And there's that saying that facts don't care about your feelings. They really don't. So, I mean, but Being direct doesn't mean blunt. I think the most effective leaders can deliver hard truths with care as opposed to just a hard edge. I mean, dear man, give fast is a great way to, to continue to have that conversation because it's about. This is what needs to be said and then this is the tone around it. Because so much of what you do in having a direct conversation is more about tone than it is about the words. I will tell you that empathy, like I feel for you, without any type of clarity, it creates confusion.

Sure, I agree with that. Yeah. What's interesting is, is when I'm trying to figure out how to, I mean, blunt my edge a little bit, I'm blunt enough.

Okay. Can I give you a suggestion?

Yeah, by all means. Because this is the type of stuff that I think people want to want to hear. Because that's. Once again, there's. And I think there's. From our listener standpoint, I think there's two people that we have in our audience out there. I think a majority of them are going to be like, difficult conversation. I am going to walk in here and I'm going to, I'm going to talk to them nicely and majority of people are going to get the shit sandwich. Yeah, there's probably 10% of the people out there that are like me. Like, hey, your job performance sucks. Bring it up next meeting.

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Yes. So here's what I will say. As opposed to it being a sandwich, it is important that you establish rapport with the person that you're sitting with. And you can do that by just being very honest and authentic and saying, look, we're going to have a sweaty 10 minute conversation. I don't want to have it. I'm sure you don't want to have it either. But we're going to come out of this with at least some knowledge as to what needs to happen. You can start that way if that feels better for you. The other thing that you can do, and I think this is something that I've worked on, is giving appreciation for the thing that is going right and then saying, this is the thing that I need to get better. And then we don't go over something else that you're doing right again to sandwich it. We talk about this is. So I really appreciate that you. This. Okay, let's think employee who is chronically late, okay. Like, to the point that this is. We're on our third strike, but they're really good at some things, and I think they're redeemable. Okay. Hey, I appreciate how you show up for our clients in our client meetings. My issue is that you're not showing up on time, and that is going to affect your job. So if you really want to continue to show up for our clients and do the thing, I need you to be here on time, because part of showing up is showing up in the moment and showing up at the right moment. So how are we going to work on this together? And really, when I say together, I mean, how are you gonna get your ass here on time? That's what I'm saying in my mind. But I'm saying, how are we going to help me understand why getting here is such a problem? And if they're like, well, I have this and I have this and I have that, and you can you take the. Similar to what you do a lot of times if you have kids, you're taking the excuses away, but you're giving them the ability to explain. And then you're learning. Also, as they're talking, is this something that someone is going to change in their behavior? Is this a conversation that is just the beginning of our exit? Where are we going in here? And I mean, as a leader, you're taking in information all the time. And if you cannot shut up long enough to let them talk, write it down and take notes and distract yourself with the listening and the writing. Count to three before you interrupt them. Make sure that they're done. So I think that's helpful.

It is to me. What I have relied on is I feel like I'm reasonably personable. I would agree with you in. In most situations, the fact that if people know we're going to have a conversation we're going to have a conversation and it could be difficult. It may not be difficult. They. I guess to me it's. People were never surprised when they walked in the door to have a difficult conversation because there had been smaller, shorter conversations that had led up to that.

Exactly. It should never be a surprise.

No, no. And that, That, I guess, is what I, as you started to talk through that, I guess because I never had an I. I've only had two people lose their minds on me in these conversations. And of course, then I really got quiet, which scares people. When I get quiet, people get. It's weird.

Yeah. You're not saying anything that's wrong. Get it?

But I think to me, that's what helps me take some of the edge off. I still know there's an edge. And I am not everyone's cup of tea.

No, no. And I'm not either. And I think part of that is, is recognizing and understanding, you know, what are your triggers? How do you need to make sure that you show, show up and working on the skill set that you're effective. And the other thing that I would say, Josh, that's important is, you know, there can be some significant long term impact in company culture when difficult conversations are handled well, but then there can also be some when they are handled poorly. And I have, I mean, I'm not perfect. I know you think I am, but there have been times where I have completely butchered those hard conversations and they have rippled through our organization for. I mean, there's some that were years.

Oh, sure. I, There has been some too where I, there's been a lot where I looked back and I'm like, well, that didn't go well.

I did it wrong. Say that at clarity, you're doing it wrong. It's like, I did it wrong.

Once again, the, the, the, the experience that we both have is the reason why I think we can speak on this. Because. Yeah, no, we, we're both, I think, pretty good at a lot of this stuff now.

Now.

Right. I was specific in saying that you said it's something in another podcast that you had done where you said success happens overnight over the last 10 years.

Yes.

My career has been longer than 10 years.

Same.

It's been through multiple companies, multiple industries even.

Yeah.

And I have found a lot of these difficult conversations are kind of the same. HR seems to be. It's a thing of yours, right?

A little bit.

Does it get expensive when people don't do these conversations?

Oh, it absolutely can. And it's not just The. It's not the expensive part in paying an HR consultant to help you undo some of the issues.

That's the cheap part.

That's the cheap part. It's the drag on your organization. Like when you procrastinate, having a difficult conversation, what that does to clients, what that does to your culture, what that does to, you know, pushing your high performers out the door. I mean, that is really, I think, where the cost is or the opportunity cost that you're giving up because you're continuing to ruminate on that conversation that you don't want to have, and it's taking you out of the business when you're supposed to be focusing on growing and, you know, thinking of new, innovative ideas, or you're at home and you're thinking about the thing when you should be spending time with your loved ones. And your pets miss you because you're not paying attention to them because you're thinking about what you needed to do or the conversation that you need to have with Bob. I think. Yeah. It can ripple through your organization quickly. Yes.

What I love, we've got something about winging it.

Winging it is not a leadership strategy. We talk about hope not being a marketing strategy. Or was it young and pretty? Young and pretty is not a marketing strategy. And hope and hope.

There's a lot of people that are like, oh, if I build it, they will come.

Duct tape and hope. No.

Right? No. I've got a great piece to this. What's your take on the winging? It is not a leadership strategy.

I mean, it's part of the fact of if you do not have a skill set around how to have difficult conversations, you need to build that as a leader. It's one of the most important things that you can do. That piece of professional development and learning how to have a hard conversation will take you further and your organization further than I think anything else that you can do in product design or product development. You can have a great mousetrap, but if you can't keep people to help them build the mousetrap with you, you're gonna. You're just gonna be by yourself, and it's not a great space.

I love that. The thing that I see, too, is as business owners, many times we are, I don't want to say blindsided by issues, but sometimes there's an issue that you're like, oh, I didn't realize that the poop had hit the fan. It does not take long for, like, a large bucket of poop to hit a fan. It doesn't the thing that I have found is there is a two step approach that I have always kept with this. First off, it's address it and say look, we've got an issue.

This.

The, the second half to that is is I'm going to do my research and the big. And on that we're going to talk about it at X time.

Yes.

If you do not set a time on it, it's like everything else, if it doesn't have a deadline, it ain't going to happen.

No. And your people see that 100%. When you're not consistent in setting that deadline and actually answering the question or solving the issue because they're looking to you for leadership, this is the part that has to happen 100%.

What happens when people don't do this? Right.

You mean the long term impact on company culture? Yeah, I mean there's.

Is there one?

Yeah, because one. Either one bad conversation or the lack of a conversation. I mean it can echo through your culture for years. So you can deal with people exiting. I mean when it goes well, when conversations are handled well, trust grows even when the outcome is hard, so we still get better. But if they're handled poorly or not at all, it sends the message that performance doesn't matter, that difficult conversations don't matter. It's the nobody gives a crap. So it means that leadership avoids truth, that leadership doesn't care about me. And again, top performers are going to exit. So the way you handle conflict really becomes part of your leadership makeup. And how you model that behavior to managers and other leaders in your organization is how you can continue to scale and grow. When people hit the ceiling in their growth, oftentimes it's because they haven't continued to develop themselves or their people around performance and conversation. It really. I know some people are like, no, it can't just be that simple. It can't just be about the people. A lot of times it is about most of the time it's the people. So you've got to be consistent.

Culture is a building.

Yeah.

It takes time to build, seconds to destroy.

Oh, we can light it on fire.

Right? Or someone can drive the engine.

They can. And then you gotta figure out how to deal with it.

I. I'm going to keep bringing that.

Up for still not done.

I know, I'm going to just keep on that one. You had adventures in getting holes in your building, actionable steps. The first one is for me, prepare, have your stuff together, know the facts, do your research. The next one you're going to be better at than I will. So you talk about. In fact, the next two you need to just talk about that would be.

Focusing on the behavior, not the person. So keeping the discussion objectives centered on specific actions or issues. Be human. And that's the other practice. Empathy, which is listen first.

Yes.

Listen to the other person's perspective. Acknowledge their feelings. You do not have to agree with them. You just have to listen.

Yeah. No, And I feel that I am good with empathy because I, I more than willing to listen and I am more than willing to put someone else's shoes on and I take my own off before I put theirs on.

Yeah.

In the same sense, I'm still a.

Little direct, which is okay. To be clear is to be kind. Remember that. So direct is okay.

Very kind. When people are crying across the table.

Shove the Kleenex across. Right.

Here's the box. We're just going to set this over there before they even walk in the room. That's part of being prepared. It is follow up. Always make sure there's a clear understanding. If it's a, if it's a difficult conversation where you're exiting someone. Well, there's not much follow up other than with hr. Hey, handle this. Get them their paperwork. If it is a performance oriented thing, if it's something else of that nature, you obviously need to make sure that there are times when you have things on your calendar. You have to follow up on this, that and the other. Because if you don't, everything that you said is completely meaningless.

Yes.

What's the last one?

That is to be direct and kind. You can be clear and you can be kind.

She keeps saying that to me.

That way, deliver the message with directness and compassion. You can do both. And if you can't or it's. I mean, I don't believe that anybody is absolutely. Unless you're a sociopath. You can do this.

Yes. 100% you can.

It is a skill set that you can learn. And there are lots of people that can teach you how to do that. I mean, we can teach you how to do that.

Yeah. No, I'm not that much of a sociopath.

Not at all.

Quick shots.

Yeah.

Single, single business. I think we've talked about this biggest mistake you see other business owners make because you see a lot of them, the mistakes. And the business owners, when it comes to like winding up to have that.

Difficult conversation, they don't plan, they should just wing it. And this, when you are having a performance conversation with, with something that could have major implications within Your business. Don't wing it. You go prepared. And the longer you train for those, it doesn't mean that you've got to like, I've got to plan 90 minutes and how I'm going to have this conversation. I mean, if you have spent a decade of your life learning how to have conversations, take 10 minutes. Just. Okay, I'm just going to clear my thoughts. I'm going to make sure that I'm not walking into. Into this conversation emotionally. That's it. If you wing it, you're more likely to get derailed by your emotions, and then it's. And it's bad. All right, so what's a simple practical tip for business owner who's nervous about the difficult conversation and wants to get their thoughts organized?

Have your first two lines.

Yes.

This is this. This is this. Make sure that your first new line isn't or your first line isn't. How are you today? No.

What's going on? No, don't do that.

Right. Their answer's bad. You just need to. Hi, Bob. Today's a bad day. Maybe not that. The other thing is, I love your piece about planning. You need to prepare, but you need to prepare topics and subjects and numbers.

Yes.

You can only plan the first two lines of what you're going to say. Have a few ideas for other stuff. I'm going to quote Mike Tyson on this. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

Oh, I love that.

And because that is exactly what's going to happen, it is not going to go how you think it is going to go.

Not at all.

I have been in, I don't know if hundreds, but a lot of these difficult conversations. And you're like, okay, this is going to do this. They're going to say this, and then they're going to say this, and they're going to say this. And I've walked into him like, okay, I am ready for a fight. And I'm like, look, here's what we have to do. They're like, okay. And I'm like, ready. I'm this up. I'm like, ready to. Ready to rock. And they're like, okay. And I'm like, what do you mean?

You agree with me, right?

What the hell am I going to do now? What am I going to do to all of our listeners that are now taking on the tough talks?

Yes. Good job.

Yeah. First off, have. Have the difficult conversation. It is well worth it. You typically walk out of the room feeling better.

You do. And you're like, why didn't I do that a month ago? Right. Or a year ago?

It's like going to the dentist. You're like, that really wasn't that bad. No, especially because, like, they gave me the cool flavor or whatever. Yeah, no, I get it. Thank you for having another difficult conversation with me.

Happy to do it. I come with notes in case anybody ever wonders.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Notes in a taser. If you want more resources, you want Chrissy and I to speak about the culture in your company, we would love to help you out with that. Go to business fix podcast.com sure to follow us on all the social medias and as always, a review and a subscription would be an amazing help. Send it. Send it to one of your business owner friends, please. Yeah, we would. We would love to be in their ears. So that way you have something to talk about or something to swear about. Next week we are discussing. What are we discussing?

Strategic planning.

Strategic planning. We are talking. I should have planned better on that.

That's all Good.

That'd be being said. Do me a favor. Take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too, we will see you very, very soon.