The Conflict Cure: Fix the Process, Save the Person

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This week we are talking about conflict and the cure for it. Once again, this is another episode where I believe Chrissy's gonna take the lead because more than likely, I am the one that caused the conflict by saying something that someone didn't appreciate.

Uh huh.

I wasn't even done. Wait.

To say the quiet part out loud.

Yeah, yeah. Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the business fix. Hmm. We're gonna start out with banter.

Yes, we can.

So the suggested topic we have here is one that I find that's interesting is it's mention a time you thought two people just hated each other, only to find out they were just arguing over responsibility. I was about to say it sounds like our podcast sometime.

They must hate one another.

No, there's times where I'm like, huh, Was I supposed to do that? Damn it, I was. And I just sent Christie a really nasty message about it.

It's all good.

Right? Right. Thankfully, you're resilient. And yet, seriously, to me, I see conflict in so many cases in business is largely misunderstandings.

It is.

And it's not. I'm right, you're wrong. It's. We're both five degrees from where we need to be.

Yes.

It's not we need to. Yeah. It's the. The other piece to that is too, is when there is some conflict. To me, I kind of like to see it.

You do?

Not because I'm a pot stirrer and

not because you want to sit there and pop popcorn and watch.

No.

Okay.

I'm not in my own business. In someone else's business.

Absolutely.

In my own. If there is some respectful conflict, I'm going to leave it. I want to make sure I say it's respectful.

Yes.

That tells me we're looking at things and we're looking at multiple angles of things. And it's not just drive the bus straightforward and stay in between the lanes.

Yeah.

I. I know you've experienced that especially. The thing that I think is kind of interesting is you coming up through the family business.

Yes.

And me having worked in a number of different fields in, let's just say my career path looks like whoever was making the path was trunk. Like our perspectives, I think, are going to be once again, two degrees different.

Yeah.

Not 90 degrees different.

No.

It shouldn't be 180 degrees different. So I'm, I'm, I'm excited for this. Is there anything interesting else interesting going on in life that we should be aware of?

No, nothing major. I mean, Super Bowl's this week, so I'm excited about that.

You are?

I know it's football. I know you don't care.

I know it's, it's the, it's the. It's the same thing back in January when I'm like, excited about the Dakar rally. You're like, the what? Sure. Okay.

Next week, when you ask me, I'll be depressed. So it'll be okay because football will be over and it'll be darkness for a few months.

You can't do reruns.

No, I don't rewatch it. I'm not that person. No, that's.

What about, like, couldn't you set up one of the kids with Tecmo Bowl?

No, I'm not that desperate.

Okay. Just make, just making sure.

I'll just be sad. Okay.

You'd rather be sad than watch. Watch Techno Bowl?

Yes.

Makes sense in your business, especially clarity. Hr.

Yeah.

You guys aren't typically brought in until well after the poop has hit the fan and probably dried.

Yeah. When it comes to conflict.

Yeah. The poop has hit the fan, spread on all the walls, spread on all the people, and is now dry. And they're like, can you just hose this off?

It's a toxic environment and we need your help.

Correct. What is like, I don't want to say toolkit because it sounds like, hey, this just takes pliers and duct tape and everyone's happy again. But I know you're going to have something that's going to have similar letters or it's going to spell something out.

I do.

So. Good, good, good. Let's get into that. Because I'm excited for this.

I plan so I will tell you. Yeah. By the time we're usually called into conflict, especially me. It's never about the original issue anymore. People are. I mean, it's emotions, it's assumptions. It's a lot of pointing of fingers. Sometimes it's completely frozen, not willing to talk to anyone. I Mean a lot of unspoken frustration that can go on for weeks or months and in some cases, years. So. But most conflict, Josh isn't a people problem. It's really an untrained leadership problem. And so you've got to fix the process. You got to teach the skills, and then the drama usually disappears when you do those two things. If you can fix the process and teach the skills, and people will use the skills, I mean, that's the other part. I mean, you do have to do the thing. So

it's not like my Spanish class from high school.

No, you don't get just to show up. You learn it once. El gato, el pero. And no, you're not. No longer. You're not bilingual. Doesn't work that way. But I'll say it honestly, for me, I have not always handled conflict well. So early on, I either avoided it too long or came in too hot trying to fix it fast. Instead of, let's have the quick conversation, the direction, forgot about tone. Like, neither of those worked, and I had to deal with the repercussions. So what changed everything for me and kind of really how we kind of solve things with our clients is building on that resilient operating system. So teaching people those interpersonal effectiveness skills for myself, and then realizing that conflict resolution, really, it's not about personality. It's about those skills. And those skills can be learned. So without further ado, I'd like to give you the three R's of conflict resolution. Are you ready?

Can I make a pirate joke?

Sure.

R. Yeah.

Yeah, the three R's. It's not Talk like a pirate Day.

That wasn't even planned. My goodness. Amazing.

Yes. So the three Rs, you ready? They are Regulate, relate, and resolve. Regulate, relate, and resolve. Okay.

Okay.

So number one is regulate, and that is yourself first. So if you don't regulate yourself, you contaminate the room.

Okay, I have a great. I have to say this.

Go ahead.

I always love it when someone's like, you just comes in screaming, calm down. And I'm like, yeah, get right on that.

Yes. So the first step in any conflict is regulation. And it's not their regulation, the person that you're dealing with, it's your regulation. So if you're escalated, defensive, or already convinced you're right, the conversation's over before it starts. And your nervous system is going to lead you, not your logic. And so that's why we talk about a framework from Dr. Marcia Lynen. She's the mother of dialectical behavioral therapy. Take a deep breath. Yes, I said therapy. It's called Dear Man. Give fast. And we did this in episode 21. We broke all of this down in detail, but kind of to tell you a little bit more, like how Dear man shows up as we regulate ourselves. So first, I mean, you're describing the facts, not the story. You're expressing the impact without blame. So I've learned to start with something like, you know, here's what I've observed, here's what not, here's what you did wrong. Okay, so let's say that again. Here's what I observed, or here's what I'm seeing, or here's what I think I'm seeing. Not, here's where you screwed up, here's where you're wrong. So that shift alone can lower defensiveness. So if you're regulating yourself and you're starting with here's what I've observed. And so that looks like in practice, pausing before responding, naming your facts and not your assumptions. I mean, we all know what it means to assume, right? Did anyone tell you that growing up?

Me?

Yes.

Maybe a few times.

A couple times. Yeah. Same to me. And then it slows your tone on purpose. So I've had to stop mid conversation before and say, I need to reset. I'm getting defensive. Yep, yep. It happens. And every single time that I've said that, the room has softened. So I've been in rooms where it's starting to get heated, and I'm the leader in the room, and I'm going, you know what? I'm starting to get defensive. Let's just take a breath for a second. Or, you know what? Let's all. Let's take a restroom break. It's okay to diffuse. Let's all go get some coffee. Let's come back. We got 10 minutes. Because we have to remember, if you're dysregulated, you're not resolving conflict, you're exporting it. And you're usually causing it to explode too. So, like, you're just throwing kerosene on the fire.

It's funny. People. There's an analogy from people to dogs here.

Yeah.

Your. Your dog is only anxious because you're anxious. And if you're like, oh, I'm. I'm worried about my dog, guess what? The dog is going to be worried. Your people are the same way. If you're worried, if you're anxious, if you're screaming, guess what? They're going to do the same thing.

Yeah, absolutely. So now the second R is relate and that is respectful, direct, communitate communication. So how you say it determines whether it lands or it detonates? Right. Don't launch grenades. Don't do it. It's not worth it. And see, this is where most leaders sometimes. Well, okay, I take that back. There was a moment in a discussion that Steve and I had, which is my husband, a couple days ago, and I did something and I knew when I did it that I was throwing a grenade.

Just pull the pin and toss.

Exactly. He's like, do you regret what you did? And I was like, not for a second, no. Sure does not for a sure don't. Occasionally you're going to do that, but as a business leader, you really shouldn't. So how you say it determines whether it lands or it detonates. So this is where most leaders either overcorrect or they under deliver. And they think that they have to choose between being kind or being clear. And that's a false choice. You can be clear and you can be kind at the same time. I think oftentimes people think that clear means I just have to be so direct. Direct to the point that people hate me. And that's not it. So in Give fast, it's how you preserve the relationship in Dear Man. Give fast. So you're gentle, you show interest. You validate perspective without necessarily agreeing. People think that validate means that I have to agree with somebody. It does not. It just means that I have to say I understand your perspective. You still may be wrong. Don't say it that way either. But I see your perspective and you keep an easy manner. And then fast is how you preserve your integrity. So you're fair. You don't apologize for your values, you don't apologize for your opinions. You, you stick to the truth and then you continue to broken record and be truthful. So you can say, I understand your perspective and this behavior still isn't acceptable. That's not harsh. That's leadership. Yeah, yeah. So you're setting the cultural standard here. So you know, we don't talk about people, we talk to them. We challenge ideas, we don't challenge character. It's really important that when you say things, I'm seeing this behavior, not you're dishonest. I'm seeing that you're acting in a dishonest manner. So when you say something specifically and you call that person out, you're hitting their integrity and then they're going to naturally become defensive. The other piece is I've also learned that I have a tendency or I Had. I don't anymore. Which is probably. I need to work on the softening part now because I went from really, really squishy to like, totally hard edge. And now we're just kind of working on the in between. But I learned the hard way that politeness avoids discomfort and kindness creates clarity. So avoidance always costs you more later. So you've got to be clear in a way that people understand. We talk about, like, growing up in the family business. My dad had a really great way of telling people they were doing a horrible job and they would thank him for it. And then when they would exit his office, they had no idea that they did anything wrong. So we're like, that was not clear. They think they deserve a raise and we think they should be fired. So you have to remember kindness without clarity is avoidance, and clarity without kindness is aggression.

It's so funny. And the thing that I find that can make such a huge. That made a huge difference for me with that was just voice.

Yes.

It was volume and tone.

90% of it is tone.

Yeah. To change those two things as, hey, I'm seeing this, not I'm seeing this.

Yeah.

Same exact words.

It's the same exact words. But tone takes a long time to develop and it's something that you have to work on in professional development. And people have to be willing to give you feedback and you have to be willing to take that feedback.

Yep.

And it can take decades. If you don't want to be a good listener, be a good listener, people.

It has taken decades. And we're still working.

You're still working. And I will say I'm still working on it, too. I am much better at it than I was when I first started, but I can still tend to get better again. There are times where I will launch a grenade. Because I made the choice doesn't mean it was the right choice, but I made the choice.

Sometimes you're like, I need to win.

Yes.

Realize you're going to be dealing with conflict on that.

Yes.

Which you're going to have to resolve.

Are we ready for that? Third, R. If there's no structure, the conflict is going to come back. And this is where a lot of conflict conversations fail. They end with relief, not resolution. So everyone feels better, but nothing actually changes. So here is my. It's a three step resolution framework. So root cause. Ask yourself what is actually broken, Whether it's process, role, clarity, expectations. Second, you have the mutual goal, which is what are we both trying to protect or achieve? And then third, is that clear? Path forward. So who owns what by when and how success is measured. So I have seen the same conflict resolved five times because nothing's documented. So you've got to take some time and walk through, because resolution without structure is just rehearsal.

Ooh, yeah, look at that.

Yeah. So, I mean, as far as, like, manage your coaching moments, let's talk about what you need to do. You teach leaders to document agreements, you revisit those expectations, you continue to parrot new things, and then you follow up. You don't fade out. So when managers don't know how to resolve conflict, it escalates back to the CEO and you become the referee that you didn't want to be, but you are.

Put on that striped shirt.

Exactly. But teaching this skill is a scalability move. So this really enables you to grow the business and you can move faster. And if there's no agreement, there's no resolution. There's just relief. So you've got to remember that there has to be agreement within the organization. And it matters because it's really a core skill that we can.

Can.

We can teach. Because conflict isn't toxic. Unskilled conflict is. Conflict is actually very healthy for an organization. It's good to move it forward. So. But when leaders know how to regulate themselves, relate with respect and resolve with structure, conflict becomes data, no longer drama.

Let's be honest. You did not start your business so you could spend your days buried in HR paperwork or Googling how to handle employee drama.

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strategy and finally get some peace of mind, head over to clarityhr.com that's clarityhr.com simple, clear, and here to help.

I'll give you a few seconds to go to the website while we get ready to get back to the show. I feel like we, like, have to mic drop and just walk out of be done.

Yes. So as far as the memory hook for the three things, the three Rs. So you regulate yourself, you relate with respect, and then you resolve with structure.

Wow.

Yeah. Real simple. I am going to simple things to say. They're hard things to do.

I was about to say I'm going to need to write those down. And the next time someone's screaming at me, I will pull this out

Conflict doesn't need a hero, though. It just needs a process. It needs a framework.

I agree with this.

So let's transition. I mean, you often look at things through the lens of system. So how.

Just a little bit.

Just a tiny, tiny bit. I make things in an Alphabet. That makes it easy to understand. You tell them how to do the thing. It works really well. How can business owners tell the difference between a personality clash and a systemic failure?

To me, it's so funny because you see so many of the problems after they've already happened and you're trying to address them there. For me, it's trying to address it before, in so many cases, before it's a conflict.

And prevention is so much better.

Yes.

Just prevent it.

I feel like Smokey the Bear. We need to put up a Smokey the Bear thing here.

Only you can prevent conflict.

That's probably. If it's all on me, it's.

It's not on you.

It shouldn't be. It definitely should not be as many grenades as I enjoy throwing. That being said, I mean, to me, the biggest one is the overlap. I mean, when you've got job overlap, two people have vague job descriptions. The. And the problem is it always goes to extremes. I know you've seen this. Either no one's going to touch it.

Yes.

Or everyone's going to touch it.

Yes.

There's, there's not. I'll do this some of the time or we'll, we'll work on this together. No, it's either I want nothing to do with it, or it's mine, damn it. And that's when you get conflict. I mean, who wants to then? The problem is, is who wants to do it then and whose fault was it? When it's done wrong or done incorrectly or it wasn't done at all.

Yes.

If you don't have that outlined well, you're just setting yourself up for this conflict.

Yeah. Because if everyone owns it, no one owns it. And if no one owns it, everyone gets blamed for it. So you've gotta, you gotta solve for that circle.

Correct. So, and to me, it's. That always look like if it's. If they're already fighting about it, are they fighting because it's a lack of tools, time, budget, any one of those things to do the job. The other thing that I see with that bad standard operating procedure is right person, wrong seat. We talked about this previously. Great salesperson is now the manager.

No.

And maybe that salesperson can't get along with marketing.

No. Or you never built they didn't have the communication.

They didn't have the communication skills. They didn't have the leadership skills. I mean, I see it in so many cases. I remember years ago I was working at a very, very large company. We had a call center and all spring market, it was seasonal business. So spring and summer, gangbusters. Wintertime, dead.

Yeah.

So all spring, marketing is screaming at upper management going, see, salesmen can't take care of the volume that we're sending them.

This is seasonal.

Then all fall and winter sales is going. They can work sitting here dead. We don't have any phone calls. Marketing isn't doing their job. And it's like, okay, well this is kind of a.

This is kind of seasonal cyclical business, guys.

Correct. And no one's willing to talk about it now. So we had this constant conflict over it. The other piece with this is I always like to do the operational pre mortem. Don't wait till it's dead. Don't wait until it's a problem.

Yeah. Do it before it's smoking.

Right. We'll call this maybe an exploratory surgery.

Okay.

Do the exploratory surgery before the person's dead. Find the person, find the problem before the. For the design workflows that are going to minimize those friction points. Clear handoff points. When you go through our processes here, it's funny, in the program that we use, we use asana in a lot of cases, it triggers. When one person's done with a task, it automatically opens up the next task for the next person.

Yes.

There's a handoff. When we've had stuff where things had to be, where it had to be known where someone was doing one thing and the next they had to wait for the next person. Guess what part of that operations was literally written in the manual? Email, next person. Yeah, it's never going to happen if you don't do that. So, yeah, make sure there's those clear handoffs. The other thing is, is like you said, if it's everyone's project, it is no one's project. We talked a few weeks ago, you said your son about group projects.

Yes.

And he's like, I don't want to do it because. Or I am doing it because I gave them a chance and they didn't do it. They didn't do it.

He at least gave them a chance. Maddie doesn't give anybody chances. Right.

She just doesn't. But then the problem is if they, and I doubt that either one of your children would ever get something like, that. Wrong. But if they do, all the other kids are going to be pissed. Well, you screwed that up.

Oh, exactly. And that's it. Or when they ask about participation because they have to fill out these ethics of like, how much work did you do? And Caleb's like, I did 100%. And these other kids are like, he didn't let. It's like, okay, how do you work through?

He didn't let us.

He didn't let us. Well, he's like, I gave you a deadline.

And that is how we know he's your son.

That's exactly right.

Something about an apple and not being far from a tree comes to mind. It's that type of thing, though, that I see in so many cases where there's. It's just not assigned. Right? No, like I said, I talked about that experience I had at that automotive place, that it's seasonal.

Yeah.

One goes to the other. The. The thing that I see, you're not going to catch all conflict before it happens.

You can't. No, it's not humanly possible.

As we talked about, I hope there's some conflict, especially us as like, the marketing things that we do.

Friction's great. Dialogue is great. Right.

We should have different ideas. I don't want all my people coming to me saying, yes, sir. God. I think there's a problem if they. If they do well.

And there are some things where conflict is absolutely required. I mean, the American military, they specifically have people within their organization that are specifically there to tell them why it's not going to work so they can work through the problems to be able to innovate. NASA does the same thing. If you're a small business owner navigating the world of marketing or looking to establish yourself as an industry expert, you already know the power of a great podcast.

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back to the show.

Yep, yep. The the problem is, is when so many people, when it finally does go sideways, so many people handle this poorly.

Yes.

To me, I put a 24 hour rule on conflict if it's happening between other people.

Okay, tell me about this.

I. I have a great story. One of the last employers that I worked at, I was a video company.

Okay.

And I was screamed at by another employee. Approximately same level.

Okay.

Just screamed at and berated. And told that I will do everything to sabotage your existence here and all sorts of like, horrific things. And I'm like, you were verbally threatened, correct?

Oh, no.

So I send this to, of course, type out this nice lengthy email, send it to my boss and hr. They ignore it.

Oh, fantastic.

There was a read receipt on it.

Hello, Hostile work environment.

Yes, I know. They. They saw it. About a month and a half later, the same thing happens again. No, my boss was in the room when it started. He walked out of the room as this is going on.

Oh, no, no.

That, that was the moment where I said, okay, hey, Josh, it's.

It's time to go.

You. You've had not. You've had your side hustle.

Yeah.

Let's turn that into the full time.

Yeah. The universe is drop kicking you out of this 100%. Wow.

The thing that I found that was interesting is I was sitting at when I like that Monday, I came back, that was a Friday afternoon.

Okay.

Monday, I said, here's my two weeks.

Yeah. And were they surprised?

Yes.

Really?

Yes.

Shocking.

They totally surprised.

Shocking.

The. I'm sitting at a table with the CEO, the vp, the person from hr, and my boss. And the CEO looks at me and he goes, he goes, what. What would happen? He goes, would you stay if. If we got rid of this person? And I said, no. His response was, well, we've moved this person four times and each time they've caused a similar problem without hesitating.

Yeah.

I looked at the CEO and I said, you're the problem.

Yeah.

I can't work for you.

No. Because you're tolerating toxic behavior. And it was this, your classic high performer leading.

And it was funny because he said, he went into saying, he goes, I don't think you understand what it's like to lead like 84 people, Josh. And without hesitating me being me, I looked at him and I said, you know what? I don't. In my last position, I had 174 people answering to me. I said, I don't care if it was our Columbus office at 4:58 on a Friday afternoon. And I heard about this. No one is leaving there until we have this resolved.

Yeah.

No, but instead you just wanted to kick the can down the road and

you're hoping that maybe I just let it blow over and it's not a big deal, I'll just forget about it.

Correct. So like everything that you talked about in that. To me, the only thing that like I love, even though it's. I am not good at talking like a pirate, I will have to remember that our errors.

Yeah. Regulate, relate and resolve.

Yeah. Because that is the 100 spot that they just completely failed it.

And that's why no regulation to me, no resolution.

I put a the resolution. Because they weren't yelling at anyone. No, they were perfectly regulated. Because they're like, there's no problem.

No, pretty sure there is.

There, there was a very large problem. Um, and then. So. Yeah, but, but to me it is that 24 hour rule. Like if you hear of conflict in your organization, to me it's one of those things that doesn't really matter where it's at. No, it should be addressed by, I guess I would say the most local but highest yes. Leader in the organization possible.

Yes.

Because that is something where it should be. First off, we can remove most of the emotion from it at that point. We can remove most of the. Well, they like this person better than that person or whatever it is.

No.

To me that it should be addressed by the highest available or local person at that point in time. Just to show how much you don't tolerate that level of conflict.

Yes.

Like I said, there should be some conflict. We should be able to sit around a table and argue, hey, I want to do this type of ad campaign and you should be able to look at me and be like, this isn't going to work.

Why?

Right. I want to do this.

Yeah.

Well, okay, we're going to talk about this and we're going to work through this and then at the end of the day, we're going to raise our coffee glasses, we're going to clank them together and say cheers. Awesome. That is great conflict. If there's not that type of conflict in my business, I'm like, do you even work here?

Yeah. Are we dead?

Do we work here? So yeah, to me, it's fighting that happy medium in there that really works.

Yeah.

That all being said, what happens? And this is what's going to be interesting. I am the guy. Yeah, I am very much the guy. Because we're going to talk about what's the difference between the vent and the solve, as a red blooded American male, if you come to me with a problem, guess what, I am solving that right now. So we already know my take on this. What's your take on it?

Well, as a type A who likes to solve everything too, it's just, I've had to learn this as well. So the difference between venting and solving. Right. So venting has a place, but it's temporary.

Yeah.

So leaders have to know when listening turns into enabling. And it, it's a fine line, but once it turns, it's like, I don't know, it's like yogurt. It's like, don't do it, don't tell them. It's like yogurt. So you have to be able to discern between do you just want to talk or do you want to solve? And so that's, that's also a question. So I usually tell managers or individuals when we're training on how to have constructive dialogue, you know, you listen first to regulate and then you ask, what would resolution look like? When I say listen first? I mean, you have, we've talked about this. Take notes if you need to. If you're not a good active listener, count to three quietly in your head. Don't do it out loud. One, two, three. Are you done? Don't do that. Count in your head, are you done? Like, and then say, okay, well, I hear you. What do you think resolution looks like? So having that conversation, and here's what I will tell you too, because there are chronic complainers, there are chronic venters. So if someone is venting every week about the same issue without any movement, that's not emotional processing, that's avoidance. And we're allowing that person to avoid an issue. And leaders have to be able to gently shift that conversation towards action. You can listen first and then you can resolve later. And this is really, I think, where fractional hr, having someone in the coaching space can help you with momentum as an organization, as a leader. Because if you come to us and you're like, well, this person's complaining about this and then we talk about it the next month, and you're like, yeah, well, we're, we're dealing with it. And we're like, hold on a second, you've talked about this for the last two months or you've talked about this for the last six months. George has been complaining about Bob and, and this issue for the last six months. What are we going to do to resolve it? You're like, oh, I don't know. I'm like, no, we're going to talk about it. Let's figure this out.

It's funny you say that because the, the game changer for me was the question when someone would come to me and say, this is going on, this is going on, this is going on. I initially immediately would go into Mr. Fix it mode.

Yes.

Because to me, everything is a mechanical problem.

Yes.

It's just how my brain works. It's. It's a leaky faucet that just needs something turned. It's a nail that needs pounded in. It's a. Whatever that. That is the way my brain works.

Yes.

When I asked the question, what would you like to see as a resolution? That is what finally clued me in. That is the way I determined, are they venting or do they want me to solve the problem?

Yes.

Because if they give me, if they give me, no, I just needed to talk. Or if they give me an absolutely ridiculous answer, I know this is a vent.

Yes.

If they say, well, I'd like to see how we could work through this. Ah, that's a solve.

Yes.

It took me asking that question, though, to get me to, once again, for my brain to. That is that hard line in my brain that says, you're going, because once again, I can't vent. Ish solve.

That's hard.

I'm going to do one or the other.

Yes.

So for me, it was that their answer dictates which direction I'm going down that road.

It does. And I would say, as you continue to grow as a leader, and this is what I mean, CEOs deals, we deal with this all the time. Business leaders deal with this all the time. It is the asking of the question of one or the other. But then after you've asked that question and let's say they're like, well, I don't really need anything. I just needed to talk about it. You're like, okay, you have to keep mental note of how often is this person coming and talking about this issue.

Yes.

And then you come to that conversation of, you know, okay, you've talked about this three times. You've talked about this six times. You've talked about this every day for the last 10 days.

We need to find a resolution.

We either need to find a resolution or you need to stop talking about it, or you need to find someone else to talk to about it. I mean, so it's that space too, of, do you want me to listen or do you want me to catch. Because as CEOs and business leaders you are constantly dealing with the framework of, how do I solve this for my business? How do I solve this for the organization? Even when someone's coming to you to just talk, you're always thinking in the back of your head, what does this mean for our business? What does this mean? So I had to learn, even as a parent of a teenage girl, it's like, do you want me to catch it? Do you want me to catch this? Or do you want me to solve this? What do you want? Do you want feedback and a plan, or do you just want me to listen? And it's the same tools and the things that I use in family and in parenting are very helpful in the business.

It's funny to me, because the way that I. The problem that I have with it is I very quickly jump to, I'm not your therapist. There are professionals for this. And it's difficult.

Or tone is important.

Right. It's difficult for me to not show that on my face and just be like, okay, this is for the greater good of this.

Yes.

And to go forward, what do you think some good takeaways are from this week?

Are.

What do you. Wait, I was gonna say, what do you think some good takeaways are this week?

So I would say regulate before you resolve. So, you know, conflict feels heated. Pause before problem solving. Help people calm down their nervous system first so they can actually hear one another. It's okay to separate. Unregulated conversations don't get resolved. They get repeated.

Yes, agreed.

And I don't like repetition in this situation. Repetition is great in sales and marketing. It's awful in conflict resolution.

Let's solve one plus one once.

Once.

To me, the next thing I'm going to look at is look at, like, do an audit of the process to audit the friction. If two employees are clashing, look at the SOPs. Is that what's causing the issue? Because in a lot of cases, a couple of words on a piece of paper will really clear up a lot of conflict.

Absolutely. And I would say you talk to, not about. So you set the clear standard that concerns go directly to the person involved, not through side conversations, slack threads, triangulation. Because, you know, conflict grows in the shadows and clarity happens face to face.

Oh, look at that. The other one, to me, defined, done. This kind of sticks with that audit. That friction. But so many times done to one person standard is not done to another person standard. I've seen someone come along and repaint what someone else has done and be like, well, they didn't Finish it. Well, according to them, they finished it. But did they? So make sure that there's a defined definition of what a finished product project is.

Yeah, I like that. And I would say, you know, model what you want to see. Keep doing the things.

Don't throw grenades.

Don't throw. If you want other people to throw grenades. There are moments, it depends. Don't do it in your business. So it's better not to.

So much more fun in your marriage. Right.

More community work. Just, just.

That is more fun.

Yeah.

That is more fun. So should you ever fire someone specifically because they don't get along with the team, even if they're a top performer?

Yes.

Oh, yeah. Same answer here. Hell yes.

Yes.

If without a doubt.

Yeah. One toxic high performer can quietly cost you three solid employees. I would say it can solidly cost you 10.

It can cost you everything.

Yeah.

That was that one person at that company that I talked about, and they weren't even a top performer. They were a middle performer at best. And. But they were like. And that's the reason why I left.

Yeah. Emotional cost outweighs operational efficiency.

Always team building that effective for conflict resolution. I think we may have different answers here.

Probably so I would say team building doesn't fix conflict. Skills do. But I mean, I think what you're talking about is like, you know, escape rooms, dinners. Can we do all those fun things? If you don't address the underlying communication and role clarity, you're kind of just decorating your dysfunction. But what I will say, yes, don't decorate your dysfunction. But activities can be good for rapport building, and they can be used as reinforced teachable moments, allow you to kind of see what's going on in your organization. They're not quick fixes, though.

What I find is interesting is I hate the term team building things. I hate it.

See, we love it.

I hate it. Now, what I look at with this is it shouldn't be team building. It. The teams should be built.

It's team celebration.

It's. It's. It's reinforcement. It is the. I like the, the decoration things. Yeah, you better like taking people out to an escape room or taking them. Bowling is not going to make. Is not. I mean, you're more likely to see the fist fight at the bowling alley than you probably are.

Oh, yeah.

Are in the office.

Yeah.

So, yeah. Don't think that that's. Don't think. Don't think bowling and pizza is going to cure anything.

You know, I find this fun, though, because we just did an escape Room as a team. It was great. Yeah, no, we had a great time.

No one on my team wants to do an escape room with me. That sounds like a bad, bad idea. But to me it's that if you do not have your house in order and looking great.

Oh, no, it.

The team building exercises are just terrible. And I see it in so many cases. It's like, hey, people a little down around the office. Let's apply pizza to the problem.

Yeah.

No, no, you. You have to fix the problems. Then pizza will help. Yeah, but yeah, pizza. Pizza is not even a band aid.

No. What's the one word you should never use in a conflict resolution meeting? Job.

The one that I use the most

way to self regulate.

To me it's those. Those the, the definite terms.

Yeah.

It's the always, it's the never, it's the it. Look, there's wiggle room in so many things here.

Yeah.

If there's an always, by golly, it better be documented and it better be in stone.

No, and it depends is a legal term. So just, you know, coach leaders to bring examples, not exaggerations. Because you're assaulting people's character when you use always and never.

Oh, I heard one where someone, they fired someone because they said he's always going to the bathroom.

Okay.

And I thought literally that means he is doing nothing else. When you say always doing nothing else but walking to the bat. The bathroom must be hundreds of miles away if he's always going to the bathroom because he didn't never actually gets there when you use a term like always.

And I really hope he doesn't have a reasonable accommodation or a diagnosed issue that requires him to be using the bathroom that you just violated.

He did.

Yeah.

And he won that court case.

That's expensive.

It was. It was very expensive. That all being said, fix the process, save the people.

Yes.

Yeah, that's the. Yeah. So if you need to fix your processes or you need to just brush up on a little bit, businessfixpodcast.com is a fantastic place to do that. See, I use that F word.

Nice job.

Thank you. Be sure to follow us on all the social medias. Also, a review. We would love to get a review. What do you guys want to hear? Reviews, comments, all those things. Would like to hear it next week. What happens when you have the nice leader?

No, I want everyone to love me.

Correct.

Can't be mean.

Correct. Correct. Yeah. That all being said. Do us a favor. Don't be the nice leader. Be the kind leader, but not the nice leader. Take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too. We will see you very, very soon,

Sa.