The Sweaty 10-Minute Conversation Every Leader Needs to Master

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I'm to the point where I no longer Fear? The sweaty 10-minute conversation.

Really?

Yeah, no, I don't wanna say I thrive on them or I'm like, "Yes!" But I don't, I'm like, "Okay, we just gotta talk about this." And it is what it is.

Yeah.

So they're not as sweaty for me anymore.

That's good.

But I still like calling them the sweaty 10-minute conversation because yeah, I may not be the one sweating, No. Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need—

The Business Fix.

How is, now that we're not summer quite yet, another couple of days from the days—

We're summer adjacent.

We're summer adjacent. We're in the part of Ohio spring that feels like summer-ish. And then there's a couple of those punches in the face that are like, No, no, no, no, no.

You still need a sweater. Yes.

Right, right. It's treating you well so far.

It is, it is. We're enjoying our, it's senior summer. So Max is getting ready to go to college.

No one's climbed the walls yet.

Nope, not at all. We're preparing to go out of town for vacation. It's gonna be fun. So yeah, I'm excited.

Was preparing for that a 10-minute sweaty conversation?

Oh, that was more than a 10-minute conversation 'cause we're flying across an ocean for the first time ever as a family. Yeah, this has been like—

Did you specifically get seats in different areas of the airplane?

Yes. We are not sitting with our children. In part because we now have an adult child and she can manage the junior high kid. So yes.

Nice.

Yes.

Nice, nice. Was telling her that an awkward conversation?

No, she was totally fine with it. 'Cause I said, look, we're gonna go to Europe, but we're gonna do it in a way where like we don't have to pay for the airfare. Complicated with points. And so I'm like, your dad and I are gonna sit up here and you're gonna sit back here with Caleb. And she was like, you know what? That's okay. Because you're taking me to Europe.

Okay. I'm good with that. I'm good with that. So why do we call the 10-minute sweaty conversation or the sweaty 10-minute conversation sweaty?

Well, I think, well, Gay Hendricks, who wrote the book The Big Leap, says behind every communication problem is a sweaty 10-minute conversation that you don't want to have.

Yeah.

So that's it.

I mean, it really is. It's the one. And it's funny because before I was willing to have these conversations, yeah, I would persevere, like just, I would sit there and be like, okay, what am I gonna say? How am I gonna say this? And all I can think of is every time we say the sweaty 10-minute conversation is I go to the episode of The Office. It's one of the first couple of episodes where Michael has to fire someone.

Yeah.

And him and Jim role play because that's, and it's funny. I love that scene so much. It's because, That is the scene like every one of us has in our head.

Yeah.

Where Michael just—

Absolute disaster.

Right. Michael just loses his mind.

Yes.

And that's what we all go to. Yeah.

And we delay it for 10 months, 10 days, 10 years. It's like, it's really, it's a 10-minute conversation, but we delay for a really long time to get to it.

So like, I wanna put a definition to this that may soften that a little bit for people.

Sure.

Let's define this as a high-impact, low-duration meeting designed to correct a specific behavior boundary before it becomes a systemic failure.

Oh, I like that.

To me, the part that— I mean, as soon as I started working on this, I'm like, yes, let's make this sound as HR as possible. It took me a while and it took me some time with AI to do this because you know that did not come out of my mouth.

No, I know it didn't. That's a really good definition.

But yeah, I mean, to me it really does fit because it's to move from emotional to operational. And that's really what you were trying to do with any conversation like this. So why is— and this is something that, like, this is why I love operations because it separates behavior from identity in many ways. Why is separating identity from behavior like the most important psychological rule of this conversation?

Yeah, so common mistake that most leaders make at least once in their lifetime. When leaders accidentally make the person feel like they are the problem instead of the behavior. Behavior being the problem.

Oh.

Yeah. So that's why you've got to be able to separate identity from behavior. There is a huge difference between, "You missed the deadline," and, "You're unreliable." Like, can you feel the difference?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I mean, one addresses something very specific that can change, and the other attacks who you are.

Ooh, that hurts.

Yeah, it does. That's why—

I feel attacked.

Do you feel attacked? No, but it's really important because it really does. The second that someone feels personally attacked, their brain stops hearing you because you have— you've absolutely went to assault on their character and assault on who they are. And you're like, I don't understand why people get defensive around me. Well, did you say you missed a deadline or did you say you're unreliable? Well, I said they're unreliable. I'm like, no freaking way.

Right?

Like, of course they're mad at you.

They missed a deadline.

Yes.

And you have now associated that with their entire persona, their entire identity.

So they're no longer thinking about any issue that you could have said to them. They're thinking about protecting themselves. And that's why people get defensive so fast. I don't understand why people get defensive. Did you talk about the problem? Or did you say that they were the problem? Oh.

What's really difficult about that is some people have a difficult time making that differentiation.

They do.

And especially on the fly.

Yes, absolutely. And this is why when we talk about how to give feedback, we teach leaders to stay really grounded in facts and behaviors. And so this is really important in that conversation. You have to know what happened, what was the impact, and what needs to change. Those 3 things. You're not picking assumptions, labels, or emotional exaggeration. All right? I mean, I've had to do this myself. I know when you are frustrated, it is easy to move from, this behavior isn't working to this person just doesn't care.

Yeah.

Right? But those are not the same thing. This isn't working to this person's— those are not the same things, right? So when we talk about resilient operating system, we talk about emotional regulation. And so a lot of being able to have these conversations is first regulating the emotions that you have in yourself. And when you, if I walk into a conversation that's emotionally loaded, I need the other person to feel my emotional regulation. I don't need them to feel like I am high anxiety. I gotta have this conversation with you. It's gonna be terrible. All right. So before I even start the conversation, I gotta ask myself these 3 things.

If you're sweating before the person walks in the room—

There's an indication that you are not ready. Okay? You are not ready. If you need to write things down, take some notes, get prepped, that's fine. But if you are, like, it's one thing like, okay, this is gonna be a difficult conversation. My adrenaline's up a little bit. But if you are like hiding under your desk before this person comes in, you're not ready to have a conversation.

Right.

So before I even start the conversation, these are 3 things that I'm asking myself. Am I calm enough to be clear? If this is an emotionally charged situation, I am still like ready to scream at someone, I'm not calm enough to have this conversation.

Not the right time.

It can wait at least 5 minutes, right? Am I trying to solve the problem or am I trying to release frustration? Because—

Ooh, that's a big one. I see it so many times.

Yes, because if this is about me releasing my frustration on you, that is not going to helpful.

No.

It's about solving a problem. I'm not gonna call you in just to yell at you. That's not gonna work. So, and then the last one is, am I trying to help this person improve or am I just trying to make myself feel better?

[LAUGHTER] Yeah.

So asking, am I calm enough to be clear? Am I trying to solve the problem or release frustration? And am I trying to help this person improve or just make myself feel better? I ask those 3 questions of myself because those are also very different conversations.

Yeah. Oh, I mean, just, just the approach in those conversations is hugely different. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I love those. Love those. Um, yeah, you know, I gotta ask an HR question on this because a lot of this is HR stuff.

I mean, it's CEO stuff because as a CEO, you have to be able to have these conversations in your sleep.

100%.

You can't do— it's not, it's, it's not probably your calling yet. You need to get some professional development around how to have a conversation.

You almost said professional help.

You do. You do. Both. Development and help, both.

Legally, HR piece. I mean, kind of one in the same there. How does being nice or sometimes vague actually create more of a liability? Because we've all seen that.

Yeah. The mistake of the nice leader. They think that avoiding the conversation is kindness. I'm going to spare their feelings. I don't want them to cry in my office. I don't want to deal with a crier. Or worse yet, I don't want someone yelling at me. So I'm just going to be really nice. I'm just going to be really nice. And I'm going to hope that everything goes well. And I'm going to be nice to them. And that niceness is— it's not nice. It's avoidance.

No one's accused me of that.

No. I've been accused of being too nice. So not Not for a while, but it has happened in the past. And I will say, and that's avoidance.

Yeah.

You're avoiding the difficult conversation. You are avoiding the fact that somebody may cry. You're avoiding the fact that someone may get defensive. Avoidance creates confusion. And if the employee doesn't know where they stand, what was actually the issue, what they need to improve on, and then what those next steps are going to be, when you get to the point that you are explosive, or you actually tell them 10 weeks from the time that you should have told them, they feel Blindsided. And that's where you get resentment. That's where the legal problems start. That's where trust breaks for the rest of the individuals in your organization. I mean, and I've seen leaders do this for months. They hint about it. My dad was really good at telling someone they did a terrible job and them saying, "Thank you for it." But no one, and when they said, "Thank you," they didn't realize that they needed to improve. That was a problem.

I know the type.

Yeah, so because he would hint at it instead of telling them, "I need you to do the thing," there was always confusion, all right? And then there's the increase of frustration from anyone else on the team, or you're talking about this issue to everyone else except the employee that needs to hear it.

One of my favorites is when people will tell the team about something, "Hey guys, we all need to do a better job of this," when it's really, it's Betty and Kevin.

And I've done that. I've sent the email to everyone, "Hey, we need to work on making sure that our side conversations are appropriate." And then I've got someone who was so upset because I lumped them in with everybody else, I'm like, "Okay, I should have just had a direct conversation with this other person." Right.

You should have had the sweaty 10-minute conversation instead of the one email.

Yeah. I mean, and the other thing around that, so you offend the other people because you group everyone into the same bucket. Or what happens is you explode because you've got all of this built-up resentment. And that employee is absolutely shocked because no one was direct with them.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Right. It builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. And so, yeah, nope.

Yeah, and I think we talk about a lot of paperwork. We talk about documentation, and I think this is why documentation matters. Not because HR loves paperwork, but because— I mean, we do, but not because we love paperwork that we do this documentation.

She does.

We absolutely are. Because documentation creates transparency, fairness, and consistency. And so when you've documented these things and the employee understands what you have talked about, what needs to change, and what's going to happen moving forward, you give them give them that timeline, it doesn't feel punitive anymore. It feels respectful. Look, we appreciate the work that you do here. We need to get you to this standard. Or this behavior is not going to— doesn't align with our core values. This is what we need from you moving forward. You have to be clear in your messaging. And if you can do that, I think it enables you to be respectful in your communication and your employees can get better.

Plus, it avoids the Parkinson's law of it's going to take as long as you give it.

Exactly.

Is if you say, I need this behavior to improve by 2 weeks from now.

Yes.

By a week from Friday, then great, you've got something to it. One of my favorites about the sweaty 10-minute conversation— yep, well, one of my least favorites, I guess I would say— is when you get the— we will call the— call this the defensive flare-up. And yes, when I'm talking about the flare-up, I feel like this is referring to something that would use a Tucks medicated pad, because that's what it feels like from these people. You get the people that they get emotional about upset. But, but, but every sentence starts with but or four buts, um, hence the flare-up. Yep. How do you bring that, that conversation back? Yeah, to— let's call this the objective zone.

Yes.

Um, instead of that, that defensive, like, emotionally charged piece.

Yeah. So employee gets upset, so they're emotional, they're defensive, Or one that sneaks up on leaders is they are absolutely quiet and they say nothing. So you feel you have to fill in the silence.

I was about to say, fill in the silence.

It's deadly. Don't do that. So immediately you deal with those types of things, emotional defensive or quiet. The leader wants to backpedal because now they're feeling uncomfortable. You know what? Just sit in the fact that it's going to be uncomfortable. Acknowledge the fact that this is probably gonna stink to some level, but you can do it. Because discomfort doesn't mean the conversation was wrong. And I think a lot of time leaders think, because this person got uncomfortable, I did it wrong. No, absolutely not. It means that the conversation mattered.

Oh!

Yeah.

Another needlepoint. Once again, we need to take some of these Chrissy-isms and we need to have a needlepoint catalog. Your culture isn't what's printed on a poster in your lobby. It's what your team does when you aren't in the room.

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Book us for your next event, conference, or team meeting at businessfixpodcast.com. Yes, discomfort doesn't mean the conversation was wrong. It usually means the conversation mattered. Yeah.

Yeah.

So what really helps in these types of situations is to keep it grounded. So you're gonna slow down the conversation instead of escalating it, right? If someone gets defensive, we do not match their emotion. We do not. We do not say, "Hold my beer, I'm going to raise it." No, we don't. We stay calm, bring the conversation back to the behavior, the impact, the expectation, and move forward. There's a concept in dialectical behavioral therapy called broken record.

Yeah.

It's where you continue to say the same thing over and over. And I know that there are times that it can cause escalation, but saying it over and over just reinforces what you need to— what needs to happen. I mean, there are times where I will— Literally say to someone, "I am not attacking you as a person. I am talking about a specific issue that we need to solve together. I hear you. I see your emotion. I'm not attacking you as a person. We are talking about an issue that we need to solve together." And just keep saying it.

I've said something similar.

Yes. I mean, another one is, and I've said this to my kids, I have said this to team members, "This is not an assault on your character." This is about an issue that needs solved. I am not attacking your character. We are talking about an issue that we need to resolve. And I mean, again, Resilient Operating System, we talk about building those communication tools that are direct, fair, calm, and curious. So we are just saying the hard thing clearly without being cruel and without abandoning the relationship.

Love it.

Right? Because there is an important distinction between can I care and can I hold them accountable? Because I think a lot of times leaders are like, I don't know I don't know if it— like, is it really caring if I show accountability or hold them ac— yes, it absolutely is. Because you can care deeply about someone and still hold a boundary. The strongest leaders can do both things.

It's funny, I heard someone talk the other day about raising kids.

Yeah.

And they said, if you hold them accountable now, you will have a much easier time parenting later.

You absolutely will. Yes.

And that's— it's a problem that many people don't look at because they're like, "Ah, they're 4." No, no, no.

No, that is the most important time.

Hold them accountable now.

Yes, toddlers and preschool. And people are like, "No, no, no, no, no, we need to—" I'm gonna get hate mail, but I don't believe in gentle parenting.

No, me neither.

No.

Me neither.

You wanna talk about criers for a minute?

Yeah.

Like how to handle the criers.

Yes, because I'm very interested on your take and how you deal with this.

I mean, it is—

Yeah. I'm sure you already know how I deal with it.

Yes. I do. And it depends on the situation for me and how— I mean, if someone cries, it's okay. I know people are like, "Well, what happens if they cry?" You know, it's a human response. And that is perfectly fine. We are not going to panic when someone cries. We are not going to suddenly abandon the conversation, you know, "Go, go, go, go, go." Go, go, go. You know what? They start to cry and you're like—

Take that mess somewhere else.

You have to stay grounded. Yes. Because tears don't automatically mean that harm was done. It may mean a couple of different things. It can mean that they care. It could mean that they're embarrassed, that they're overwhelmed, or that they finally feel seen.

Yep.

So allow that to happen. Your job is not to rescue them from discomfort. Your job is to help them move through it productively. So there have been times where I have just slid over Kleenex. There have been times where I've just sat and waited.

I, yeah.

I can do either or. I've done both. There's been times where if it's absolutely emotional, I will stay in the room, but I will get up and I will walk to a different spot to give them a moment. And then I will come back. I don't usually look at people and say, "Are you done?" I don't go that far. Don't go that far.

I'll, yeah.

Yeah, I just said that. Say, you know what, take a moment. Just take a moment. I'll be here when you're ready. And that's okay. Because you may be dealing with someone who wants to emotionally explode and have it be manipulation, or you could be dealing with someone who's just going through a lot and you had no idea.

They could. And I mean, look, having something pointed out like that can hurt.

It can. It absolutely can. If they thought they were doing a really great job, because you never gave them true feedback, and this is the first time you're giving them feedback, It sucks.

It does. But it could be that first step forward too.

Yes. Or it could be acknowledgement where you went, "Look, I think you're struggling here. Let's talk about it." And all of a sudden they realize, "Oh my gosh, you see that I'm struggling and I need to release some emotion before I can solve the problem." And I think part of it too, even whether you're dealing with a crier, you're dealing with somebody who can be, I mean, explosive, or they're just— not everybody's gonna have emotions, which is totally okay. Because I think we project the worst possible scenario. No. Yeah. Thank you. So as in like no emotions. We project those worst possible scenarios. But let's go back to the 3 C's of leadership. So we've got clarity, consistency, and care. And this is, you know, it's how you have that sweaty 10-minute conversation. And I think leaders avoid these conversations because they think the goal is to avoid tension. And it's not. The goal is to create clarity before confusion turns into resentment. Because that sweaty 10-minute conversation today is a whole lot healthier than 10 months of frustration, gossip, and operational damage later.

Oh, yeah.

Just do it.

Yeah.

Just do it. I am.

There's no other way to say that.

There isn't.

You have to get it done earlier. I believe it was the last episode where I said the operational debt is like you're going to pay this You're going to hear the music now or you're going to hear the music later. And when you hear it later, it's much, much louder.

Yes. So, Josh, you always say like, "Let's just rip off the Band-Aid." Maybe a bit callously, yeah. But that's okay. I mean, walk us through the actual operational mechanics. How do we start it? What data do we bring? How do we end in exactly 10 minutes? Because my sweaty 10-minute conversations, sometimes they're 3 and sometimes they're—

30.

30.

Sometimes they're 45 and end up being a podcast. To me, there's a couple of things. First off, preparation. This is like any speaking engagement or anything else. Now, depending on your comfort level with this, that depends on your level of preparation. For me, these are, I don't wanna say these are easy conversations for me, but I don't need to go in with a big idea with it.

You've done a lot of 'em.

Right. Don't script the whole meeting, because scripting often leads to robotic responses that they're gonna fail the moment, they're gonna fail what happens when the person, You're expecting them to cry and they just sit there staring at you. Right, right. You can't, like, and this is the thing, you cannot control other people.

No.

You can only control how you present the information to them.

Yes.

That's it. So to me, I always say, go in with, like, if you're not comfortable in this, go in with the first thing that you're gonna say. But I still love the Mike Tyson principle on this. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. And let me tell you, within the first 45 to 50 seconds, you are gonna get punched in the face.

You are.

Hopefully not literally.

No, I would hope not.

But the plan's gonna go out the window because you and I have both talked about this. I have brought people into my office where I'm like, oh, this is gonna get ugly. They're a crier. This is gonna be hysterics. They're gonna jump out my window. And they sit there looking at you and they're like, oh, okay. And you're like, oh. And then we also get that the stoic person that comes in and loses their ever-loving mind. Yes. And you have no idea how they're going to do that.

Oh, you go, "That didn't go as planned." Correct. Correct. That was unexpected.

Just assume the poop tornado. That's fair. I haven't brought the umbrella up.

You prepare for the poop tornado. That's okay.

Right. And the way you prepare for the poop tornado— prepare for the poop tornado. God, that is— That's a great one. It's a tongue twister. Instead of a rigid plan, have your data, have your information handy. If you're having a difficult conversation, you have information and documentation to back it up. Have that stuff in front of you to refer to because there's nothing worse than saying, "Well, you kind of don't do the thing sort of." No, no.

No.

We've got 5 times here where you didn't do the thing.

Yes.

It's documented. It's there. If you are anchored in data and you've got that data, it doesn't matter if it's a right hook. It doesn't matter if it's an uppercut. It doesn't matter if they assume the fetal position in the far end of the boxing ring.

Yes.

You are ready.

You are. So I will say one thing about some of those people that will say, "I don't have enough documentation." There is a limit. It's not a thesis. If you have a pattern— because they're like, "I need 30 examples." No, 3 is good.

No.

I need— do you have a pattern? I mean, we talk about, you know, Once is not a pattern.

Correct.

Now, if there's an issue that you have to address because it was significant against your core values, it doesn't matter. You've gotta address it and you've gotta address it now. But when people are like, "You know what? I don't know that I have enough information about this person being chronically late. How many times have they been chronically late?" "I don't really know, but they've only been on time 3 times in the last 3 years." You have way more than enough data. Stop procrastinating and stop avoiding your sweaty 10-minute conversation.

Don't use the data as a reason to not do it. Yes.

Yeah. I've seen a lot of that.

To me, to look at your first 15 seconds, the first words that come outta your mouth, if you're not good with this, rehearse that.

Yes.

Like have that there, those first words, 'cause those are gonna, that is what's gonna set the tone.

Mm-hmm.

100%. The thing that I like, the no fluff opening.

Yeah.

This is your first, and we're gonna lay this out in terms of time. 0 to 2 minutes is the no fluff opening. Directness is kindness. Directness only works because the relationship you've built with people.

Yeah.

If you have not been direct with them all along, this is gonna be tougher.

Yeah.

If you've been direct with them from day one, you're in good shape. If they know that you care about their success, the sting of any correction is so much easier to take.

Absolutely.

Because they realize you're not saying this— it's tough in so many cases. I have had bosses bring me in and I thought, "this is malicious." Whereas if they're like, "Hey, I really need you to do this," it's a completely different conversation. The other mistake that happens so often is don't start with small talk. No weather, no, "How was your weekend?" No, start right away. Right.

Appreciate you being here. This is gonna probably be an uncomfortable conversation for both of us, but we're gonna work through it. Here we go.

Correct. And a great way, something that someone showed to me years ago, it's not how I prefer to start things. I'm having this meeting because I want you to be successful. If you start out that way, once again, you have set that tone. Now, the next 2 to 5 minutes has got to be data. If you have not done research, shut up and you shouldn't be in this meeting anyways.

No.

But what I always like to say with this is you need to have the numbers behind it. And once again, if there's a pattern of things, if there's issues, you're not gonna call people out, but you need 4 or 5 sources to tell you something. You can't get it from one source.

No.

Also, state the fact and shut up.

Don't overexplain.

No, because what's gonna happen is you're gonna be like, look, your performance has 'hasn't been up to par and we need to fix this.' Mm-hmm. Like, that's it.

Okay.

Even that was a little bit uncomfortable there because we're not used to silence. But once again, it's that thing like, 'Hey, we need to fix this.' There's no need to—

Okay.

Right.

How?

If they acknowledge, if they do that type of thing. But if they want to sit there in silence with it, be okay sitting there in silence for a second.

Yeah.

Because so many people, your performance isn't up to par and we need to fix this. And then there's that awkward silence. But—

Yeah.

And as soon as there's a but, suddenly the conversation has flown out the window and you've got that hindquarter irritation again that we talked about.

Yes.

Be okay with the moment of silence. The goal in this, the goal really in positive feedback part 2 of this conversation, the 2 to 5 minutes. That is, it's to isolate the variable. SOP says X, the result was Y. Help me understand the gap.

Yeah.

This is what we're solving for. If it's not a conversation, it could have been an email.

Yes.

Unless it's a termination or something to that effect. But really, you have to be in there to say, look, this is X, this is Y, I need help in understanding the gap. Once again, we're not, we don't want to feel, people feel attacked.

No.

Because now I've said the SOP says this. I'm not saying, you idiot, why didn't you do your job?

Yes.

I'm looking for a solution. I'm not looking to scream at someone.

No.

The next 5 to 8 minutes of this is that's the operational debt. When you skip step 3 in CRM, the accounting, marketing team loses their mind because now they have to spend 2 hours fixing it on a Friday starting at 4 o'clock. That's a friction point we can't afford. Um, those are the things— it moves it from the boss is mad—

Yes.

—to the machine's breaking, or you're the one throwing the wrench in the works.

Exactly.

We need to find out why. That, that's where we have to go to. The clearest kind protocol with this is the ask for their commitment to fix Yeah. Once again, either the fix or if this is the sweaty 10-minute exit conversation, the fix is get your stuff and get outta here. That is the fix.

Yeah.

To me, it's okay to script this too and have it someplace you can look at it. Now we've identified the gap. What's the one thing you're gonna change today to ensure it doesn't happen again? Great, I'll document this. We'll check on it again Friday. You've got the two pieces to it. What's the solution and when? You alluded to both of those things too. What's the solution and when? Those are the things that all need to be brought together in that. And once again, we've got 4 basic steps of this conversation. They don't necessarily, I mean, look, if you add this up in the right way, this is, I mean, a minute and a half.

I mean, it can be really efficient. You can add in dialogue. You can say, hey, can you help? This is what I've said. 'Can you explain it to me so I can make sure that you understand?' I think it's perfectly fine to do that in dialogue too. Especially if you're a crappy explainer of the things.

And especially too, when you're in the evidence space of this, when you say, 'X is the result, we were looking for Y, where's the gap?' That's their chance to say, 'Look.' And once again, this is where you have to go into some of these sweaty 10-minute conversations to learn.

Yes.

Not to, unless there's a corrective action here. And once again, I've been in these conversations where I'm like, dude, why are you doing this? And they're like, oh, I do this because of this.

Yeah.

Oh, well, we've learned something here that we can work on.

Yeah.

And once again, you have to make sure this is done as— like, you can't go outside of SOPs. We need to establish something with this, but you can improve out of this.

Yeah, I think a common mistake that leaders, first-time managers, will also make is that they think think that sweaty 10-minute conversation is only used for corrective action. It is not.

No, it's not.

It is constant dialogue.

Correct. Correct.

It can be any type of conversation that might have any chance of an emotional impact or someone misunderstanding. So I think I make the argument that every conversation has the potential to be a sweaty 10-minute conversation. So if you normalize it, you're a lot less likely to freak out when you actually have to have a real one.

This 100% goes back to that. That, the trust that I talked about, if they feel like you have their best interest in mind, if they feel like you are trying to make them better, then once again, these conversations are so much easier because it doesn't feel like an attack.

Exactly. And if you model how to have a good sweaty 10-minute conversation, I mean, newsflash, some of your people may want to have one with you too.

Oh, wow.

They may want to give you feedback as well.

And I hope they do.

I hope you do too.

One of my favorite things to talk about is, 'cause I still remember a CEO sitting me down and saying, "Look, I'm gonna give you the shit sandwich here." Just the look on your face. And I'm like, "Why?" Like, "Dude, something got screwed up. We know it got screwed up." It's funny, it was two other people that really screwed it up, but they blamed me. So I was in the meeting also and the CEO just talked the whole time. And he told us the good, the bad, and then the good.

Yeah.

And this, once again, you know, I've quoted Spy Game, the movie, a few times in this. There was someone that— there was a phone call that came into Robert Redford and his character in this. And it was kind of funny. It was that first, "Hey, we really appreciate what you've been doing." And he laughs. And they said, "Why did you laugh?" And he goes, "That's what my coach told me right before I was about to get benched." And that's what it is. When the employee walks in and you give them the shit sandwich, they're not like, "Mmm, bread!" No.

They're not excited.

That's not what they're tasting.

No.

What's your take on it?

I think the sandwich method trained an entire generation of employees to distrust any type of compliment.

I agree.

I was in college. And I was learning how to give this type of corrective action. Like, we trained on it in college. We wrote essays that were specifically— and business letters. I remember in business school, it was like, this is what you have to deliver and you're gonna follow. It was, I mean, it didn't say the shit sandwich, but I mean, it literally was praise, negative, praise.

Yeah.

I mean, when you do that, I mean, praise should be clean, correction should be clear. And when you blend them together, people stop believing either one. So you've— it's one thing to say appreciation, you know, "I appreciate the work that you do. Here's some things that we need to work on." That's fine. But you don't talk about how, "I'm really glad you're here." In this moment, you're probably not. So don't lie to people.

If I put two pieces of bread and some poop in a blender, do you want it?

I— no! No! And it's stupid. It's not a good method. I mean, it protects the leader from discomfort more than it helps the employee.

100%. You are confusing people.

Employees shouldn't have to decode whether you're genuinely appreciating them or you're setting them up for criticism. I mean, you talk about that framework in Dear Man, Get Fast where you're validating. Validating does not mean that you are saying everything is perfect and then here's this little thing that we're really not gonna address because it makes me uncomfortable. You're talking about all the things. Things. Frustration. Sorry.

So you're not going out for a sandwich tonight after this?

No, no. I mean, if we are going to correct something, let's directly talk about the issue. I do not want you leaving my office thinking, I think everything's great. No, it's not. If I— it's like, if we're having a hard conversation, I want to make sure that you understand what the issue is and I understand what the issue is and we know how to resolve it together.

Yeah, yeah. No, I wholeheartedly agree. What happens when the boss is the one getting the sweaty I'm getting the, getting the sweat. Let's be honest, you did not start your business so you could spend your days buried in HR paperwork or Googling how to handle employee drama.

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Oh, I think this is really one of the healthiest signs of culture.

I do too. It's so funny. I mean, some people are like, "Oh, my employee was like, really, I mean, giving me the business on something." Yeah, they should.

That's wonderful.

They should.

Yeah, I mean, I think employees need to understand leading upward is not emotional unloading. It's really respectful clarity. And a good way, if you're an employee and you're trying to figure out, "How do I tell my boss I need something or I need them to do something?" I think a good upward conversation kind of sounds like, "I want to share something that's making it harder for me to succeed. That's it. You don't say like, you're a terrible leader. No. Hey, jerk. That's not what you do. You just, you share, I want to share something that's making it harder for me to succeed.

I want, like, I always get suspect if someone's not willing to say something difficult to me. I'm always like, I'm off the mark here. I really am.

Well, yeah, if leaders, if no one is willing to challenge you, your culture is probably more fearful than healthy. Hey, we didn't want to bother you with this issue. Really? Or we didn't want to tell you. No, that's a problem.

That's a big problem.

Yeah.

How do you reset after the ugly conversation? How do you reset after that? Do you like, 'cause I've seen some people, like I still remember this.

Oh gosh, yeah.

I worked someplace, I just got basically screamed at for some results of something. And then my desk was close to, so we were in a conference room, my desk was close to their desk. And they're like, hey, we still on for dinner Saturday? Like, because—

Did you look at them? Did you— were there four-letter words?

I'm like, I, I'm like, this is awkward. Sure, because a bunch of us would always go out, put glass in it. But yeah, there was 5 or 6 of us that would go out, and they're like, you still going for dinner on Saturday? And I'm like, here's my middle finger, right?

I'm kind of like, well, this is—

this sucks. So what, what's your reset? I'm assuming That's not a slap on the ass and go get 'em, killer.

No, emotional whiplash confuses people. I mean, I think—

It does.

The healthiest thing you can do is, I mean, you normalize the relationship so you're not punishing the person emotionally afterward, but you don't overcompensate either. 'Cause I hate it when people are like, hey, everything okay? And it's like, no.

Let them be mad.

Let them be upset. Or let, I mean, like the conversation should feel like, We addressed the issue, we have a plan, and we're going to move forward. It should not feel like this did never happen. We're going to pretend like it never happened? No.

No, you had an awkward conversation.

No, if the employee handled the feedback professionally, you acknowledge that. You're going to reinforce the maturity that that person has, not the mistake that they made. Because direct conversation should create clarity, not lingering awkwardness. And when you act like everything's fine after you just chewed somebody out, I know And just, that's psychotic. That's not a healthy work environment. It's just, you can't. Or you become overly cheerful or you become overly apologetic.

I see that all the time.

Like, here, I had to yell at everyone or I had to yell at this person and now I'm gonna give them cupcakes. No.

I was just gonna say pizza, but yeah.

Ugh, don't do that.

I see it all the time. To me, couple of key takeaways for the day. One issue, one issue at a time. Do not bring the laundry list to a sweaty conversation. Pick one behavior, fix it, and move on.

Yeah, this is not the 95 Theses. We're not nailing it to a door. Say it cleanly. Clear feedback builds trust faster than softened feedback ever will. Be clear.

Because they know what the hell you're saying.

Exactly.

If you need to, practice your opening line, your opening 30 seconds out loud. If you can get past the opener, the rest becomes much easier.

Agreed. Normalize the sweat. So hard conversations are not a sign that your culture is broken. They're a sign that culture is functioning.

Yeah, I totally agree. Look at your team, like audit the niceness debt. Who are you currently frustrated with? Is that frustration a sign that you need that sweaty 10-minute conversation? Because in many cases, get it out.

Yeah, and you're gonna address this issue directly, you're gonna define the next step, and you're not going to let awkwardness become new culture.

I have one more actionable thing.

Yeah.

I didn't put it in our notes.

Okay.

Extra deodorant.

Yeah. Yes. That's fine. Make sure you have Kleenex. And I will say, and this isn't in our notes either, but it's something that we talk about all the time. If you are not good at this, get coaching around it.

100%.

You need, this is probably one of the things that we do not professionally develop enough. Managers need to understand how to have these conversations with their people. Business owners need to be able to have these conversations with their managers. And as you level up in your organization, it is a leveling up of the 10-minute conversation.

100%. Should these conversations ever happen via Slack or email?

No, be brave enough to be the person your team needs. We're not gonna hide.

No, I feel the same way.

Don't shrink.

I feel the same way. And I mean, look, if you've got remote employees, you still need to talk to them directly.

Yeah.

I mean, they need to see that you're looking at them. They need to see that you're engaged and they need to see that you're receptive.

Absolutely.

When someone starts crying.

Yeah. Yeah.

What do you do?

I pass the Kleenex and I take a deep breath. We do not rescue from discomfort just because it's there.

You just, "Okay, just wait." Now, I usually try and set them out ahead of time if I think it's going to go there.

I generally have them on my— they're over there.

That preparation stage that I talked about.

Yeah, I have Kleenex and then I also have a sand tray so that if it's a hard conversation and somebody doesn't want to look at me, I give them permission to walk through the sand tray. It's like I'm actually a therapist. I'm not, but I have those tools. I've learned they're helpful. All right, Josh, can you have a sweaty conversation with a client who's breaking your process?

Hell yes.

Good job.

It's so funny. I had to do it in the studio a few weeks ago. No. Someone came in and they're like, hey, we're gonna do, I said no.

No way.

I said, look, this is the process. This is how we do this. This is how we're gonna ensure that we are gonna deliver those results. That you want. This is the process that you signed up for. If you want to do something else, that's fine. You're probably not going to do it here. We've done this. We're the experts with it. I'm assuming you've had that same conversation.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You have to, especially if— I mean, if they're not following the things that are going to probably get them sued. Yeah.

And to me, the other thing that I see with it is too, is it's that— it's the— I don't want to say it's the client that wants the discount. But the one that's like, "Hey, could you guys do this? And could you guys do this? And could you guys also do it this way?" It's like, no, because that— suddenly you've got someone that's paying $1,000 for $4,000 worth of work.

Well, exactly. We have one, I just had this conversation, it was around billing specifically where they said, "You know, we think we have all these entities that are under this model. We'd like you to break all of the bills up." And I said, "If we break all the bills up, those are separate contracts and you're going to pay 'You're gonna have to pay more because we cannot accommodate. That's the one accommodation we will not make for your model.' They went, 'Oh, so it'll be more expensive if you do it this way?' I said, 'Yes.' 'Oh, never mind.' Pretty easy conversation. Now we understand. Yeah.

So yeah. Cost more to do that? Great, we're out.

No, we like the way you're doing it right now. I said, 'I figured you did.' Works fine, works fine.

That being said, we've got, I mean, we've got some more interesting conversations coming up. The next one, as I dive deep into the folder here is how you should stop babysitting people.

Yeah.

You stop moving from the hero culture, once again, tear the cape off, to process culture. No one needs to be a hero. Everyone can do really, really well. Do us a favor, businessfixpodcast.com. As always, take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too. We will see you next time. You very, very soon.

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