Why Great Leaders Listen Before They Lead

We've all heard the complaint, nobody wants to work anymore.

Honestly, Josh, I'm tired of hearing it because the truth is usually a lot tougher to swallow. People do want to work. They just might not want to work for you.

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The problem is, as business owners.

Yeah.

We're right a lot. That is a problem because the times that we're not right—

It's bad.

It's bad. And because we're typically consistently right, or at least looking at right, when we're unwilling to listen to the other side—

Stubborn.

Oh yeah, stubborn. That's an excellent way to put that. If you want to figure out how to get better and more information, stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the Business Fix. I have an example. Yeah, that's not polarizing, polarizing.

Okay.

But this is kind of where this topic came from for me. Okay. The death penalty. And I enjoy it as an example because it's not— there's some people that are polarized on it, but it's not a super hot topic for a lot of people.

No.

It's not a hot button where you're instantly going to send someone like flaming-haired running down the street. It was interesting. I was of the mindset, friem.

Okay.

And someone gave me the stats, I sat down and listened to them.

Yeah.

And they said, "Hey, did you know that it's between 2 to 3% of the people we have executed have been innocent?" And I'm like, "Well, that doesn't sound like a big deal. 2 to 3% error on stuff is pretty good." Unless you're in that 2 to 3%.

Exactly.

Then it's a pretty big deal. And when they mentioned that, I'm like, "Oh crap, I have to start listening to the other side of the story more." 'Cause once again, I was a staunch fry 'em kind of guy for a long time.

That was the moment where I was like, "Oh, I need to listen a little better." Yeah, for those of you who are like, "I wanna do research," the Ohio Innocence Project down in Cincinnati, University of Cincinnati does some amazing work.

They really do.

And I, yep.

100%.

That's where my perspective changed significantly in part because of my husband, so.

Yeah, no, it's interesting how, just listening to that side of it. And so many people now, we, it took me a long time to become secure enough to listen to, to hear rather than listening to respond. 'Cause I always felt I had to prove myself and all this other stuff. But well, that's largely what we're gonna talk about today because do you feel like today's world is polarized maybe a little bit?

Tiny bit. I mean, I just, tiny bit, not a lot, just a little, it's just a sliver. Right, right. Yeah, if you could see my facial expressions, audience.

Yeah, yeah, Chrissy looks like someone just smacked her in the face.

Oh gosh.

Um, the problem is, is I've seen that this is carried over into business, and it leads to misinformation, hidden risks, and a team that will stop sharing. This is the critical part: a team's going to stop sharing bad news because they know, as the leader, you aren't You ain't listening.

No. And your culture will die really fast. Oh my gosh. It's not a slow, painful death. It's like hit a brick wall.

Yeah.

Immediately.

Jumped off the cliff.

Yeah, it's gone.

No parachute.

It's gone.

You did the whole Tom Cruise Mission Impossible thing off the— with the dirt bike just off the bridge.

And you did not make it.

No, you did not make it.

You were a greasy spot.

Yeah. Chrissy's getting graphic. That being said, like this week we wanna talk about the reactive listening compared with intentional listening.

Yeah.

Um, this is core to leadership.

Yes.

Um, as a leader, you're not there to be right. Um, so many of us are told that though. And if you're— so many of us are also told if you're not right as a leader, you're not a leader.

And that's so wrong.

It's— it is so wrong. But it was the leadership principle I was initially brought up through.

Oh, same.

And so, yeah, you can't show any weakness, um, which was considered being wrong. We talked about psychological safety. How does a leader's ability to listen to learn— if they have that inability to hear people, how does that erode safety for the team?

Yeah, so I think a lot of leaders think they're listening, but they aren't. Instead, they think they're listening, they're just waiting to talk. So.

They're just, they're not listening. They're waiting their turn.

I've been in so many meetings. I think too, I say meetings and dealing with people. I would say it's also sometimes when you're dealing with, when your kids are preschoolers and you're talking and then all of a sudden they start immediately. So I feel like a lot of times as leaders, we model that behavior too, which is not okay.

You see it when someone's on the edge of their seat. You can.

And it's like, can't.

I got this, I got this.

Yes, no. And teams can feel that difference immediately between a leader that's actually listening and a leader who's just waiting to talk.

Yes.

It's very easy. So I like to break it down into, you listen, you learn, and then you lead.

The 3 Ls.

The 3 Ls, listen, learn, lead.

We need to bring the letter people back.

You know what? I will get them out of my purse. They're in my other purse. I took them from my kitchen, from my refrigerator. I was going to bring them and I forgot because I brought a different bag. So listening, Listening is not hearing. Listening is creating space. Okay? And I know that there's gonna be some times where people are like, this is gonna sound really woo-woo and like we're in therapy. Yes, we are. We're gonna just learn the things today. Okay? So sit down, drive in your car and listen to me. All right? Listening is not hearing. Listening is creating space. If I interrupt, if I defend, if I redirect too quickly, what I am really telling the team is, I don't actually want your input. I want confirmation. And I really just wanna move on to the next thing. And that's not okay, because if I really want people to listen to me, I'm going to listen to them. And so when we, when we do that, when we, when we don't take the time and create space to listen, that's when safety drops. So if you're an interrupter, we've talked about this in other podcasts, you count to 3 when someone takes a breath. Okay? I know that my brain works really fast, and I know that I am sometimes that person who wants to talk quickly, because I wanna make sure that you hear what I have to say too. Stop it. So I'm saying that to me, Chrissy Myers, especially when you're having a disagreement or an in-depth discussion with your spouse, at least count to 3, okay? Ask them if they have anything else to say in a nice way. Don't say, "Do you have anything else to say?" Don't do that.

"Are you done yet?" "Are you done yet?

Is it my turn?" No. Just say, "Have you finished your thought? Is there anything else you'd like to say?" Like, that's just give that. "Is there anything else you'd like to add in context? I wanna make sure I understand this." So that's the listening part.

That's right. There's two things that I want to add.

Yeah.

When you said woo-woo.

Yes.

The one thing nothing irritates me more than when someone says you were given two ears and only one mouth. I'm like, I'm not a toddler. Stop.

That's what my kindergarten teacher used to say.

Correct.

It was just annoying. There's a reason why when I was— we did like Vacation Bible School and my Indian name was Little Running Mouth. I kid you not. That is what my mother named me as my Indian princess name because we did cowboys and Indians one year. It was in the '80s. You can judge me. I don't care. My name was Little Running Mouth.

That does not surprise— or I mean, it wouldn't surprise you if I would have told you the same story though either. No, that's the— the other thing that I think is funny is, is people are awkward about silence.

Yeah.

Let them finish and let it sit there. And if you're willing to let that silence sit there and just listen, they're probably going to give you more information.

Yeah. And let your brain, like, process what they said. You're taking in the information. It's okay to take a minute. If you can't pay attention, take notes. If you're going to interrupt them, count to 3. Ask if there's anything else that— is there anything else you want to add? Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else you'd like to add? It's okay. It diffuses the situation, especially when there's high emotion. So listen. The next one is learn. So next to listen is actually hearing and processing what someone says. This is the learning. So allow them to be heard. When people don't feel heard, they stop sharing. And once they stop sharing, problems get hidden, mistakes get buried, risk shows up late. And we talked about this in Culture Killers, right? This is where the meeting after the meeting starts because people don't feel like they have been listened to. So then they don't feel like you learned anything from the conversation, right? So don't just hear the words, seek to understand what they mean, actually learn from what they are saying. Ask clarifying questions. "That sounds interesting. Is there anything else you'd like to— help me understand how you got there. Help me understand what happened." Or better yet, repeat back what you heard the person say to make sure you understand what was said, so you're proving that you learned from them. You can say, "You know, I appreciate this input. What I'm hearing from you is— the story this tells me is—" And if you're going to go on an assumption, You either start with the hallucination or the story I'm telling myself so that they're not thinking that you're just jumping to a conclusion. You explain, this is what I'm hearing. And if they go, no, that's not it. And you go, can you explain it again? And it's okay if you have to go through this process a couple of times to make sure that you understand, especially when you're in an emotionally hijacked situation, you're dealing with a significant customer issue, you're dealing with a crisis in your business, you're dealing with something financial, you're dealing with something that was behavioral in the organization that can cause an issue that you may have a personnel problem with. These are things where you have to slow down, you have to listen, and then you have to learn the information that you're listening, parrot it back. So those are the first two. Are you ready for the third?

I'm buckled up. Okay. Notice I'm listening.

I know, I'm really, thank you. Thank you for listening. All right, because listening is not passive. This is where lead comes in. Listening is leadership because the faster the truth gets to you, the faster the business improves. So you don't just say, "I'm here to listen." You have to show it in your leadership. You actually have to do the thing. So you walk around the floor, you ask people direct questions. When they answer, you say, "Thank you." Right? Even when you don't like the answer, you say, "Thank you for sharing. That must have been difficult. Thank you for coming to me with that issue." If you don't understand what they told you, again, we ask clarifying questions. We are learning. And if people don't feel heard, they're going to stop talking. And when they stop talking, the business starts guessing. And you don't want your business to guess. You want your business to know.

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It's interesting when you say they ask the clarifying questions because I typically try and default to that because I want— Yes. As much information as I can possibly get from that person, especially if they have a differing view. Now, you may call it nefarious, but oftentimes I want that information. So, oh, this is something that I maybe need to use against them. Yeah. Or this is something that I need to fill in a blank that I didn't have before.

You're, you're always building a case. Always, always building a case.

You just don't need to fire that case directly back at them. No. Until it is your turn. The other thing with that, too, is when you said the, the what I default to is analogies. So it's my understanding, I kind of see it as this and this. Does that seem right to you? If I go to an analogy, that's me getting that verification that, okay, we're seeing this the same way. Yes. I'm hearing you. I'm trying to— and if not, then we, like you said, start that over again. How do you— like, this is what's tough. How do you, as the founder, as the visionary, as someone that's looking to move things forward, how do you listen to those opposing views that may suggest your vision may not be correct? Because that's a tough one. I mean, that is a kick straight to the teeth.

Yeah, it is. I mean, I'm wired to move fast and trust my instincts. But I will tell you that vision without input from other people is isolation. Ooh. Yeah. So it's really important to have that. So let's talk about listen, learn, and lead. So listening, I have to intentionally create moments where I am not the smartest voice in the room. In fact, now I never wanna be the smartest person in the room ever, ever. I was in a situation where it was very clear to me that the person next to me had to be the smartest person in the room. I was perfectly fine with that. I made sure to tell them that I didn't think I wanted to work with them because they didn't like to work with other people that were smart. Yeah, that's fine. Um, I will say too, like, that listening part doesn't come naturally for most founders. It really doesn't. You have to check your ego at the freaking door, okay? If you want to go far, if you want your business to go fast, you gotta drop your ego. I am not the be-all and end-all of the world here. I want my organization to move fast. I want us to continue to grow, which means I've got to hire people that are smarter than me. I've got to hire people who are willing to have hard conversations with me. And we've got to dialogue through all of this. And at the end of the day, it's not about me. It's about how the business moves forward. Yep. So you want to be a solopreneur? Fine. You want to have people? You better check your ego at the door. So that's listening. Learning. People that are closest to the work for a founder are going to see the friction that they cannot see. If I don't listen, I don't learn. If I don't learn, I don't adjust. And if I don't adjust, the system is gonna break while we're scaling. Yep. So you've got to learn to adjust because it's not just about the data, it's all about the action that comes after it. And then there's leading, which is, you know, listening doesn't mean abandoning the vision, it means that we're pressure testing it. And this is really where leading comes in. The goal is not consensus, it's clarity. And strong leaders, they have to be willing to not— they don't protect their ideas, right? Strong leaders don't protect their ideas. They pressure test them. Is it the right idea? Yeah. And leading, sometimes the most important thing that you can do as a leader after you've listened and learned is to change direction. Leading a lot of times is changing direction. It's admitting that you're wrong and applauding someone for raising the issue. Oh my gosh, thank you. I am so glad that I have hired people that are way smarter than me. They can see around some of these corners and we get to do this together. Thank you for coming to me. Thank you for letting us have this meeting, for talking to me about it. I really appreciate that you let me listen and learn from you.

They will follow you to the end of the earth. Off a cliff. Yes. Yes. Yes. How do you coach managers to remove that personal bias? Because You know, yeah, a lot of managers are always right. So they, like, in so many cases they miss. We get employees that are venting because they're frustrated about something. Yeah. How do you get the boss to, like, that, that mid-level or entry-level manager to not take that personally and, or to at least remove their personal bias so they don't see it as an attack?

So most conflict I have found in my experience, it's not about what was said, it's about what's assumed. Yes. Yeah. It's how we assume, and we know what happens when we assume, right? So let's go back to listen, learn, and lead. So listening, you gotta teach managers to slow down and separate, and they are separating the words from the story that they are attaching to those words. Ooh. Because bias a lot of times lives in the story. See, and I think One of the greatest ways to defuse and actively listen is using that summarization tool of, "Here is what I heard." And again, if you're emotionally hijacked in a situation, it's, "My hallucination is," or, "The story I'm telling myself is." And so, like, a great one is, "Bob, you've missed 3 deadlines. My hallucination is, is that you want this company to fail." And he may say, "Oh, no." I just, I can't meet the deadlines because my computer doesn't work right now because I can only send emails to Jim because I didn't send a ticket to IT to get it fixed. It may be a really simple thing. So it diffuses it as opposed to like, because again, when you're a new manager or you're in a role and you're really trying to prove yourself and you've got someone who just may not be hitting the mark, it's very easy to take that space personally. So don't take it personally. Let's just listen to kind of what's going on. The next one then is to learn, and this This is where empathy becomes a tool. It is not a feeling. Okay? We're not trying to agree with the person. We're trying to understand the why behind what they're saying. Help me understand. And it's not, help me understand why you did this. No, no, no, no, no. No. Because we've all heard that too. We've all done that. I mean, first time as a manager, why did you do that? No. Help me understand what you were thinking or help me understand the process. Help me understand. Take me— can you tell me the story of how this happened? So, I mean, the same way we can do it in business, we can also do it with our children. Like, this is one of those things where it's just— it's how you do this. And the easier and less emotionally charged you ask these questions, the more you will learn.

100%.

Because if they're like, oh, they're not mad at me, you could be raging on the inside. That is totally fine. They don't need to know that because you need all the information. There's a reason why, like, detectives and law enforcement get a whole lot more information from people when they're just casual and nice. Tell me your story. Tell me what you were thinking.

Where were you on the night of—

Yeah, it's not an interrogation. It is a conversation. Okay, so learn from them and having the conversation. Okay, and then leading. Despite what you're hearing, or how you hear it. You have to take the information and start formulating decisions based on your understanding. And this is where it's important to verify that you have listened and you have learned, because if you're reacting to your interpretation instead of their intention, you are solving the wrong problem. I am interpreting it this way. That is not what I meant. You have like, right? Yep.

How many times have you made changes to production when really it was just they were upset with Betty?

Exactly. I have, I have done that. Same. We have changed a process and then it's like, wait, why did we change this? Well, because this person got upset. I'm like, were they the only person that ever got upset? Yes. Oh, I screwed this up. Yep. Yep. So I changed a process for hundreds of people, hundreds of clients because one person made one mistake. No, I've done it. Don't do it. To lead into that now, Josh, as the operations guy, I think sometimes it's really easy to talk about constructive dialogue is just really, I mean, it's squishy. Yeah. So how do you operationalize something as squishy as listening? What's the ROI in doing it?

So to me, like there is a process that I have for this. Huh? Process. Oh, amazing. And ironically it is, this is not, outlined as graphically as most of her, like, how to edit a podcast is. No, I still have some notes that are in an easily accessible place for me. So when someone comes to me with something, I can be like, hang on a second, and I can pull that up, and it's 3 or 4 steps for me to look at to be like, okay, what do we— what do we need to do to stay calm through this? Um, the, the first part, right? Yeah, right. It's not It's not being George Costanza's dad. Serenity now. No, it's not Serenity Now. To me, so many people are listening to Answer, and when you do that, you are just there to protect the SOPs. Like, you're not going to learn anything. You're not going to get any better. If you are perfectly happy with staying the same or going backwards, great. Listen to Answer. Yeah. If you want to learn about what's going on in your company because no one knows, like You, you don't know these people's jobs as well as they do. No, it's so tough to like— it's one of those things that you have to say that out loud. Like for me to say Lance is a better editor than I am. Yeah, he is. Yeah. Okay, we're good with this. Yeah. You have to realize that. So to me, you are looking for a better way. You're not looking to shut them up. That's the whole difference of it. And when you look at it, this is the— this— I'm listening this way to the benefit of the business, not to defend myself. That's where it becomes— so yeah, the first step on this for me is the, the internal prep. And like you said, get, get the ego out. 100% remove the ego. If you can explicitly acknowledge that your information may be incomplete, you got to say, look, I don't know everything. Yeah. As soon as you can say that, like, out loud— I don't know everything— which is tough to say as a business owner. I don't know everything. Yikes. Um, I mean, every time I said that, my spine kind of stiffened up a little bit. But once again, you have to say it, because then if you can't say that, you're there to defend instead of audit. Yeah. Auditors, like, look at IRS auditors. They're not there, like, if you're friendly with them, does that matter? Nope. Nope. They're there to listen specifically to the data. Yeah. They're there specifically for the information. These people are about as emotional, emotional as this table. Yeah. So take that there to do the job, right? Take that auditor's mindset approach with curiosity. They're looking for information. Yeah, um, they're looking where the process is failing the person, not where the person is failing the process. If you go in looking for a culprit, the team will hide the truth. And if you go in looking for friction, they will help you find it. Oh yeah, if you say, if you say I am looking for who screwed this up, right? The finger pointing. I mean, people will scatter. Your factory floor will turn into a ghost town in a matter of seconds if you go in saying, hey, I need help finding where the problem is. Now, what that is, is you have to realize this is the flip side of that. Yeah, this is someone coming to you telling you where the problem is. Yeah. You just have to be willing to listen to that. Um, allow them to speak until they are completely finished. No interruptions and no reloading your rebuttal. I mean, there's so many times where I— you see the hourglass spinning above someone's head as you're talking to them. You see that, and when you, when you change your point a little bit, you see the hourglass again.

You're like, damn it, they are not listening to a word I am saying.

No. And I mean, the, the only listening they're doing is, is like literally, it's like someone's skeet shooting. They're just throwing the clay pigeons in the trap and they're waiting for you to pull it so they can shoot them down. That's exactly right. That's totally, yeah, that's totally the wrong way to look at it. What I always like to say is the mirror check. What I'm hearing is the current billing process takes two, creates a two-hour delay on Tuesdays. Did I get that right? Once again, here's what I'm hearing. Did I get that right? Yep. If you say that, once again, you're getting verification of that you're on the same page. Yes. Because as you said, so many, like so often when we're on the opposite side of things, it's a miscommunication. Yeah. It's, if it's misalignment, you should have fired them a while ago. Move your objective from being right to finding the truth. Yeah. You are the truth hunter. You are not trying to be right. If your ego is in the room, the truth will hide from it. Your big bad ego. Something you need to consider with this. As a leader, you have access to data, financials, and your visionary goals that the frontline team, that Bob on the factory floor has no idea about. None. There is an information asymmetry. Mm-hmm. Your job as the business owner is to, like, be looking at information, is to process information. What I always find interesting is someone's bringing you information and you want them to shut the hell up.

No.

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Never, right? I don't care if it has nothing to do with anything. You say thank you. You just say thank you. I appreciate you coming to me with this issue that has nothing to do with anything that I need to worry about. But you know what, at some At some point in time, they might come to you with something else. So just say, "You know what?" Correct. "Thank you for telling me this.

I'll take it under advisement." Correct. Now, realize in that information asymmetry, that goes both ways because you're gonna have a blind spot. Yeah. Bob on the factory floor puts the widget together much better than you do, and Bob knows what's holding Bob up.

That's why you need to listen to Bob even when you don't want to.

Oh my gosh, yes. Just give him 5 minutes. 100%. You are missing some critical information. So the people knowing the job know the mechanics of it. They know what's going on. If they don't, you've got a whole nother problem. Um, you need to learn from them. You must listen to the person without using your extra info as a weapon. Because what I hate is when someone comes in so many times, I can't—

oh my gosh. Yeah.

And I mean, and I know I've done this, having a moment, is because we're We're working on something. Maybe there's a process, maybe there's something that we're working on shutting down. You're in a hurry, someone comes in like, hey, I got a suggestion for this, and you're like, it doesn't matter. Um, you're like, get the hell out of my office, I'm busy. Yeah, they have no idea that this is a process that isn't going to be needed in another 4 or 5 months. No. Um, there's, there's just— it's so many different ways for it to just crash and turn. And if you do that once, you will never hear from that person again. No, at least not in a productive manner.

Well, I would say this is also why it's really important that you share vision with your team and where you're going. Now, sometimes they don't need to know everything that's going on, right? I bet if they knew that you were working on innovation and optimization and something, that they might be less likely to come to you with an issue that they think might be eliminated in 6 months. Correct.

Or if they come to you with something, be willing to say, hey, you know what, we're working on something that I think undoes that. But once again, ask for their input on it.

Yeah, what do you think?

Right, what are your thoughts? What do you think? If you are so worried about your innovation leaking out to competition through your employees, you got the wrong employees. You do. 100%, 'cause they should realize what they say is a threat to their own job at that point. Yeah. It's very simple. The other thing that I, that I really want to talk about was the, the return on investment of this. If people shut down, they're going to stop listening to you. As soon as you stop listening to them, they're stopping listening to you. Yeah, that's when this is the, the, the maternity ward for shadow workflows. This is where shadow workflows are born. Yes, it is. It's not when, it's not when two processes love each other very much and they, they get together alone at night. No, it's when you stop listening. That's when you get shadow workflows, because they will circumnavigate the leader to get the job done however the hell they feel like they want to. Yeah. If someone doesn't feel heard, like I said, they're going to stop sharing. The other, other thing is, is the heard but overruled dynamic. If an employee feels like they, they, you truly heard them and still make a decision that goes against them, they're still likely to buy in. Yeah, but then, and that's because they'll assume you have other information. But if they don't, there's, there's one of two things here. First off, if they don't feel heard, that they're just going to do the shadow workflow anyways. Second off, if you notice them doing the thing anyways Guess what? You've got the brilliant jerk. You do. Because we've had that. And that's— that is how I have watched the brilliant jerk be born through the shadow workflows, because it was someone very intelligent that wasn't getting listened to. So like, well, I'll just figure out how to do it on my own. And they did. And it crippled other areas of the business and it was difficult to watch. This to me is the more transparent you can be about anything and everything. The better. Explaining why the decision went a different way, it really builds that bridge to trust. We talked about trust recently.

We have. And when people are like, "Well, why can't they just do their jobs?" If you tell them how things work, they will do their jobs much better, much faster, more loyal. You'll have less friction. Yeah. Just—

It's that 5 minutes of listening that shows up in so many other areas.

And 5 minutes of explaining and remind yourself, themselves that you have to repeat it more than once. Usually it takes people 10 times to hear it before they commit it to memory. Yeah. So when you're talking about vision, operations, strategic direction, it can't just be one time in a quarterly meeting. It has to be parroted. That's something that we're working on right now at AUI and Clarity is really making sure, because we're working on some pretty innovative things right now and kind of disrupting ourselves before our industry disrupts us. And so Having those conversations, I live in it every day, right? My frontline people do not live in it every day. So when they're like, we don't understand and we're afraid, I'm like, opportunity to explain. I do not get frustrated at this point in time because I know they are doing the things that keep the business moving. I am doing the things that's going to help us operationally over the next 10 years. And it's important that they buy in with time. But again, they're not living in the day-to-day that I'm living in and vice versa. So we have to have dialogue.

Yeah. And there's that, once again, there's that trust. Yes. That we're all trying to do the same thing. Yes. Just at different times, different places, in different ways.

Yes. Our values are in alignment. What we're doing and our purpose is still in alignment. We just sometimes have to repeat ourselves, and that's okay.

The other thing that I find with the, when people aren't heard and when people aren't listening, you get the meeting after the meeting. Mm-hmm. Always. I have seen in so many cases someone will walk out of someone's office and they'll walk right into someone else's office. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, okay, that's not good. No.

The only time the meeting after the meeting is a key of team health is when your managers and leaders are having the meeting after the meeting of how did that go, what do we need to do to make sure that this sticks. Firm believer of the meeting after the meeting when it is your leadership team. Yep, yep.

No, I wholeheartedly agree because then in many cases there's the, like, what was the information that we got? And what do we need to do as a leadership team moving forward?

Yeah, how do you think this was received? Do you think you may have some people that are your early adopters and they may be the people that you know you need to have in the room as a person that's proponent of? How do we sell that person? Did that person engage? What do we need to do? Like that type, like autopsy after a big meeting to make sure that you continue communication, absolutely necessary.

Why should you be the moving option? Like what, why is being able to move your opinion? Yeah. Why is that leadership strength? Why would people see that as leadership strength when you say, oh, "Hey, yeah, we are gonna change course." Don't people see that as weakness? I think, ugh. I knew if I asked that the right way.

If you said it that way.

You're weak because you changed your mind.

No, the ability to change your mind is not weakness, it is awareness. And that is huge. Rigid leaders are gonna protect their ego. Flexible leaders, ones that can change their mind, protect the outcome, which is really the organizational health of the business. If new information cannot move your thinking, I mean, you're not listening. That's it. I mean, if you want to grow, you've got to be willing to change your mind, change direction, sometimes say, oh my gosh, I was wrong. My gosh, the two most powerful things that you can say as a leader besides thank you are I was wrong and I don't know.

It's funny, I've got a sports analogy for you. It's gonna be one of your favorites.

Is that a football analogy? It is.

Okay. How many times do you see a running back go to run up the center and they stop and they're like, uh-uh, and then they head towards the side? Yeah. Same idea. Yeah. Or they wait for the opening.

Right. You gotta, they pause for a second because the offensive line has to make the hole.

Right. Yes. They're looking at information and like, what I thought I was gonna do, that's not an option. No. So many times when you see them run straight for the back of the offensive line, they go nowhere.

Yeah, that's why I scream half the time when I'm watching football. You say—

here's one that I find so interesting. Uh, sometimes the marketing data says do A. Yeah. Sometimes customers shout do B. Yeah. Who do you listen to?

I would say if customers are consistently saying something different than the data, that's a signal. I think sometimes it's easy for people to go, "Ah, it's just noise." No, it's not. That's a signal. You want alignment. You don't need to choose sides. Data tells you what's happening. People tell you why.

It's interesting because, yeah, I feel like the— we've seen it all the time. The marketing data typically lags so bad that it's telling you what you looked at 6 months ago. The customers are going to tell you what's happening today. You need to listen to what people are saying. It can't all be lagging indicators.

It has to be leading indicators too.

Yes, 100%. Are you okay with the awkward pause after someone finishes speaking?

What do you think? I've done a lot of therapy. I've done a lot of negotiations. I've done a lot of employment stuff. Yeah, I have gotten really comfortable with silence, but most people are not. Most leaders are not. No. So if you really want to optimize yourself as a leader, you have to get comfortable with silence because silence is where truth shows up most of the time. Yep.

I am completely comfortable with it. I typically though have, like you, the quick thinker. The, the, the wit is there. So I'm like, oh, yes, yes, yes. And so it is a, it is a very conscious effort to pump the brakes. Yeah. But yeah, I can sit there all day and stare at someone and be like, okay, that it's the joys of having no dignity.

Well, and I think, no, not for me. I would say The other thing too, if you fill that gap too quickly, you can cut off the real insight. Because if you have— a lot of times your introverted or your auditory processor, it may take them a little bit more time to have that conversation. I mean, and I would say too, if you can't sit in silence, you are never going to hear the full story. No. Especially when you are trying to deal with an autopsy of a situation. And you're like, okay, I don't know what the right answer is. I don't know what happened, but we gotta start talking about what happened. So let's just sit for a minute, and when we're ready to talk, I'm here to listen.

The other thing is that I've tried to look at with this, and the thing that I've told myself with it is, I know what I know. In this conversation, do I want to fill in the blanks, or do I want to let them fill in the blanks with information? I probably want them to fill in the blanks in the information so I can figure out what they know also.

Yes, you're going to listen, then you're going to learn, and then you're going to lead, right? Yeah, right.

Um, I, I love some of these. The 7-second rule. Can you sit for 7 seconds? You know I won't let you because dead air on a podcast is terrible, which is I say count to 3, would you say—

and not 1, 2, 3— 1, 2, 3. Yes, I can sit for 7 seconds. Yeah. Oh, I know you can.

I know you can. There's often times where you're sitting there looking at me like, I think eventually he'll shut up.

Not true. Not true at all. Yes, practice the 7-second rule. I would say too, you slow down to speed up. If you're rushing conversations you're going to repeat the problem over and over and over. 100%.

I would say to audit your bias. Realize that you have a bias going in and try and get it— to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, first you have to take off your own. Take your shoes off.

Yeah, and I would say you seek the signal, not the story focus. So you're going to focus on what's actually being said, not how it makes you feel. Seek the signal, not the story. Ooh, signal, not feelings. Feelings are okay. But you've got to be able to listen to the facts because, you know, facts don't care about your feelings.

Yeah, I also, I love to just ask why. Why did this happen? Why do you feel that way? Ask a ton of whys. Yeah. Because once again, you're going to get more and more information and then you're moving into the process of it instead of the people part of it. Devil's advocate. Yeah. Useful tool or just a way to be a pain in the ass?

Oh, it's highly valuable. Highly valuable, but it has to be done in truth, not simply to win an argument. You don't let your brilliant jerk ever be the devil's advocate. No.

No. I wholeheartedly agree with that one. It's one of those things, you have to use this. You have to look at, What am I missing? Because that's what you're asking. Devil's advocate is a bad way of saying, what am I missing? But you need to ask, what am I missing? You don't necessarily need to tell people what they're missing.

No, and red teaming, there's lots of different ways that you can do it. I think it can be extremely important depending on what you're trying to accomplish. So we've talked a lot about listening, Josh. Can a leader ever listen too much? And where's the line between collaboration and indecision?

We've all heard that. I just like to get a little more information before I make the decision.

Can you give me more context? We've been meeting for 6 hours. We've been meeting on this issue for 6 months.

I— yeah, you can listen too much. I mean, eventually, like, how much— and there's a point of diminishing returns. Yeah. We all know that person that's going to tell you the story where they're like, it was a beautiful day and I saw this one rock. That caught my eye when I was out riding my motorcycle. And this is a story about me riding my motorcycle. And there's this one rock that was really pretty. And like, you're like, holy cow, those are the people you don't ask to tell a story, right? The birds are chirping, the— right, sure. Yeah. Um, no, I just— tell me what's important about this. So yes, you can, you can do that. What's your thoughts on it?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, especially like, we're gonna argue over or have a discussion about where we're having lunch until dinner time. No.

Every couple has been there. Every couple has been there.

I think that's why brunch was invented.

Wouldn't that be linner? That too.

But like, we don't— what do you want for breakfast? I don't know. What do you want for breakfast? What do you want for lunch? Oh, okay. Breakfast for lunch? I mean, that's— I'm telling you, this is how these things happened. It's not because we slept in, it's because we were indecisive. Nice. Makes sense.

Makes sense. Uh, what's a big pivot you've made because you listen to the other side?

Strategic direction in how we built out our HR model. Interesting. So I had some ideas as to what I thought it needed to be, and then with some collaboration, conversation, and, you know, really talking to Julie on that side, it was like, no, no, no, I think we need to build in some capacity in different ways. So yeah, pulling everybody in makes it better.

What about you? It was with the hiring at the truck dealership. When we started to talk to the, like, I'm like, here's some tools to hire better. And they're like, we ain't got time for this. I started like, oh, right. So we had to listen to them on how they were hiring. And it totally changed, totally, totally changed the process.

Yeah, how do we build this for you if you can't use it? Right, yep.

That being said, thank you everyone for tuning in. As always, Chrissy and I have a ton of fun doing this. We really appreciate it. BusinessFixPodcast.com for all the good information, all the fun stuff. We're building some more stuff in this, too, which is coming up and exciting. We'll have more details on that later. Some big events coming up. Speaking of big events, The next topic we're going to talk about is navigating the business crisis. You sound excited about this.

I was built for crisis. I think that's—

I'm dreading this one. So that'll be a good balance of things. Chrissy Myers, you'll just talk while I cry. Do us a favor, take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too. We will see you very, very soon.

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