Why Most Business Meetings Fail And How Productive Meetings Save Your Company Culture

Well, I love productive meetings.

Oh, that's a stipulation.

It's a very big stipulation. Otherwise I'm playing candy crush. You want to know how Chrissy hates a meeting? She pulls out her phone.

That is how we're gonna start this podcast. We're talking about meetings. Stay tuned.

She's the CEO, he's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the business fix. What has you excited coming up, Chrissy, besides us talking about meetings, we've both been dying to talk.

I'm so excited to talk about meetings, I would say. I mean, we're in the throes of summer, so we're dealing with one kid away for an extended pre college summer camp and then the youngest one is at summer camp as well. So I guess we're testing empty nesting. We'll see how that goes. We probably should have had a meeting about it before we started to execute. Right.

So this is the trial, the trial run.

This is the trial run of can we survive in a house together with two dogs and no kids? It's going to be great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All the freedom, all the things that I'm going to get done. I mean, that's kind of that you.

Say you're going to get done.

Yeah, we'll see. I mean, if I have, if I have a lot of meetings, I probably won't get anything done. So that's what I'm doing. That's what I'm excited about. What are you excited about?

Josh, once again, getting out, riding. Some do it. I don't. I love the fact that we have four seasons here.

Yes.

To me, that's amazing. But summer is my favorite. I am a freeze baby. I get cold anytime it's below like 73 degrees. So now I'm in my heyday of like, okay, it's warm, I can go outside, I can relax. I'm no longer sitting in my office shivering, even though I've got a space heater under the desk and a hot computer. Yeah. So to me, that is the, the big exciting piece. It's nice to see the sun. Yes.

Occasionally.

I mean, right, right. Little wet, but we're get. Yeah, we'll. We'll get there. Meetings.

Yes.

They're all terrible. They're all horrible.

They're not. I'm sorry you have trauma around meetings. I like them.

I actually do too, but.

Okay.

There is a very, very large space in there that. Yeah, we need, we need to talk about a stat that I had meetings. Unproductive meetings cost U.S. businesses, an estimated 37 billion annually. That's a lot when you think of the dollars per hour sitting in a meeting. I always sit there. Whenever I'm like, having a meeting in our company, I'm like, adding it up. I'm like, okay, this for us to talk about. This cost X dollars.

Yes.

Ouch. Not only that, but when you see people playing Candy Crush, rolling their eyes, you're like, I am paying them for that and what the hell can I do about it?

Yeah. Sending text messages.

Right. Probably to the person across the room.

Correct. They're in chat.

Correct. Because you always see the one person put their phone down and someone else picks their phone up seconds later and then smiles and then looks at them. That's how you know you done messed up your meeting. Yep. What is the biggest blind spot that leader, like, leaders have in meetings?

Oh, I think sometimes. Not sometimes, all the time.

Unequivocally.

Most of the time. Leaders treat meetings like it's a box to check instead of business strategy.

Oh, God, yes.

Yeah, that's it. I mean, we just. Let's shift things and look at them as a true asset. Like, meetings are an investment. They are.

I still, I remember I've been in a couple of places. Like one where we had a Monday morning meeting and we would be in there for half an hour. And I mean, it was scheduled usually for an hour.

Yeah.

And the manager would make sure that he took up the hour.

I hope with all the things that are necessary to run the business, be effective. I mean, we talk about, like, time is the most expensive currency that we have in our business. Right. So every meeting is a decision to pause the actual work that we do, the revenue producing work that we're doing. So it had better earn a spot in the calendar. Not just because you want to feel entertained or you want to take a break. Like, that's what I mean. It'd be nice to just take a.

Break if you want to take a break. Don't involve other people.

Exactly. Unless they were willing participants. Don't make people hostages and call it a meeting.

So I love that piece to it because when you talk about it, taking people hostage, it's a thing.

It is. I've been a meeting hostage this week. Yeah.

We will not name names. No, we're not going to name names on this. But no, I, I totally get it. What do you see as the number one, like, the thing from a leader out of that?

Well, leaders set the tone. And if CEO or manager shows up unprepared, distracted, Late. Late is my big one. Don't do that. It sends a message that the meeting doesn't matter, that everybody else's time doesn't matter. Your behavior either reinforces clarity or it invites chaos. There is no in between. You have got to set a good intention and a good tone. And for me, part of it too, is having an agenda and having everybody in the meeting understand why we're having the meeting so that they can come prepared. Because we want to make decisions and be efficient. Efficient. Every. When we have a meeting, everybody leaves with a to do. And that to do has to be to done by the time we have the next meeting.

Yep. I. I will dive into agendas because that's a big.

That's your thing. Oh.

Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You kind of talked about the culture and chaos.

Yep. Meetings are your culture. They are your culture model. What you want to see.

It's so funny you mentioned the showing up late. The best meetings that I have been involved in, there's some that I do with a group out of Cleveland where literally we show up for these meetings. And the, the chairs, the chairs that are running this are there. They're greeting people as they come in.

Yep.

They get there 15 minutes early, they're greeting people. Hey, good to see you. Thanks for your time. Thanks for being here. I show up to that meeting and. And there's an agenda. Yes. I show up to that meeting just cocked, locked, ready to rock. And I'm like, we are going to get some stuff done.

Yes.

I am not here. I'm not on my phone. I'm not. Yeah. It feels so good to do that. How do you. What, what is your strategy for making a good meeting?

Oh.

Well, if there is such a thing.

No, there is. I mean, part of it's being intentional and understanding what is the purpose. Every meeting that you schedule has to have a purpose and an intention.

Yes.

There has to be a reason why you're doing it, and there has to be either an expectation or an outcome that you have leaving that meeting and things that need to be done as a result. There has to be some type of. Whether it's. It's an action item, whether it's closure because of an issue. There has to be a true purpose that has been achieved in the meeting. So for me, it's going in with the intention of this is what we're doing, helping everybody understand it. And for me, too, meetings are go time for CEOs, for managers. That is when you are expected to be on because you have got to. If you're leading the meeting, you have to make sure that everybody knows what's going on and you're able to shepherd where things are going if you're not leading the meeting. So you had better be focused because there's somebody in that organization who has taken time to prepare and they need you in some capacity. Whether that's just sitting and listening and giving feedback or that sitting and listening, because then other people will sit and listen too, because you're being a good example. But you've got to be able to participate.

How many times do you see people in meetings that aren't involved?

Oh, well, it depends on, in our organization, not as often as it used to be because we've done a lot of work around, around that. So getting invited to a meeting is a privilege. And when you come, you come prepared. But in organizations that we coach all.

The time, it's, it's funny. And the reason why I asked that, as I see so many meetings where you do see the person in the back of the room texting and kind of like we joked about, you see the person text, then you see the person across the room pick up their phone, they laugh, they look at that person that sent the original. And it's funny because they realized they're. They just got invited because they should be invited. They felt that, that it's like inviting the fourth cousin to your wedding.

Yeah.

Oh, this person works here. So we should probably invite them to the meeting.

Yes. No. I mean, there's. If you're having an all company staff meeting, fine, everybody's there. But if you, you're having a marketing, sales and marketing meeting, you're like, we need to invite someone from service delivery. Are you going to talk about service delivery? Are you going to do something that is actually, actually purposeful for that other person's job? No. Then you're wasting their time.

Right.

And you're wasting the company's money. So be effective and efficient. Another thing in meetings, and this is, I mean, sidebar is community meetings. So you serve on a board of directors and you're giving of your time, talent and treasure. I think it's really important to show up prepared because that organization, that executive director, is depending on you for your decisions and your feedback. And if you're sitting there texting or checking your email or playing Candy Crush, you're not coming and really being in service of your time.

No, no, not at all. Not at all. It's funny, you've. You've talked about the purpose and objectives and stuff like that. I may have had the nickname of the meetings dictator.

Oh, what did you do?

I mean, I would tell people, I'm like, if you see the free time on my calendar, set the meeting. If I do not have an agenda for that meeting 24 hours in advance.

Oh, I like that.

I am not showing up 100%. If, I mean, if I look like if the meeting's at 3 o' clock tomorrow and I look before I go home and there's not an agenda, I'm going to send you a message saying, hey, I'm not going to make it. I need time to prepare. To prepare. I worked at a company where they would just, they would send you a message. This is back with AOL Instant messenger when companies would use that. Right, right. That was an hr. Just wonder. I'm sure gave you a lot of business is. But they would send you a message. They'd be like, come into our office. Like, what's this about? They're like, just get in here.

So you have no context, no purpose, no nothing. Am I getting fired? Am I getting a promotion?

Right? And then I'd go walking into their office and be like, hi. And they'd be like, what's last week's numbers? Maybe like they're in my computer at my desk and like, why don't you have them?

You didn't ask me.

Oh gosh, I had no. No clue.

No.

What? Yeah, so the other thing that I always talked about too is I told people there are one of four things. Is it to make a decision? Is it to brainstorm? Is it to share information? Or is it to solve a problem? If it doesn't, if you can't say this meeting is for one of those four things, don't do it. There's one that I want to talk about that's interesting.

Okay.

And I told you kind of in our pre notes, I'm like, don't touch this one. Because I really was excited to talk about this.

Didn't touch it. Question is, did I read it?

Amazon has a policy for their managers. It's a certain level of management where they have a six page form that you have to fill out in in order to call a meeting. And what they do is they spend the first 20 to 30 minutes of said meeting with everyone going over that six page document. So that way everyone has read the same thing. And to me, the thing that I love about it, if you're not willing to spend the time to fill out a six page document, why the hell are you Involving the rest of these people.

Agreed. There's no reason for a meeting. No, I like it.

No, I mean, to me, that was the thing that I absolutely loved about that, was just the fact that, I mean, once again, if you're not willing to put in that effort, you shouldn't be willing to drag other people into a room with you. Don't. Don't drag other people.

There are no. No. No meeting hostages. Say that a lot.

No meeting hostages. It's, it's funny because as you say that, I think of people literally tied to their chair, looking at the door like, how do I escape?

Yeah.

How can I.

How can I feign an illness? Can I have a heart attack? Can I have, like, there I. Come on, you've seen it.

They start burping, like, stomach's kind of upset.

They pick up their phone and go run out the room.

Like, even though you saw.

I wish I would have done that.

The screen never turned on.

Exactly.

They look at their phone, they get the surprise look, and they're like, I need to, I need to take this.

Yeah. They're pretending like nobody's. Nobody's there.

Right. No one's calling you. I saw on your watch, no one called you. We may have done something similar. I, I. There's been times where I have told people, I'm like, look, if I'm not effective here, I'll go do something else. Yeah. You know me well enough to know that I will. I'm okay offending some people.

Get up and leave. Where's Josh going? Oh, he's done with your meeting. Right.

If I'm not of value, why the hell am I here?

Yeah.

Because we've all been there, and we've all sat there and thought about that. The problem is, is I've seen so many people sit in these types of meetings and think, this is a requirement. I have to do this.

Oh, that's a good. That's a good one. And I think as a leader, you ask yourself, would I be in this meeting if it wasn't required? Like, that's a good way to know if you should be in the meeting or if you should be having the meeting or if the meeting needs help. Oh.

And so it's. Do you, I guess, do you. Like, when you call a meeting, are you saying is this person required? Yes, to each person.

Usually I'm thinking through that. Like, before I even invite people to the meeting. As much as I love meetings, I love meetings for productivity. I hate meetings. That if they're not going to be Productive. So I don't, I don't call a meeting for the sake of having a meeting. There's always purpose and intention. So that's where, like, people are. Like, I don't like meetings that don't make sense. Like, I don't go to those. Yeah, no, it's just simple.

I'll go to them, but I leave shortly thereafter. Be like, oh, yep. Nope, bad Internet connection.

Yeah, I mean, I went to a lot of. I mean, early in career, I think everybody, like, when you're not in leadership, you go to those meetings and you suffer through so many bad meetings that you hit that point of, okay, when I'm in charge or when I have this ability, I'm going to make sure that it's present productive. I'm going to make sure that we have the agenda. I'm going to make sure that. I mean, I'm going to jump ahead. We start and end on time.

Oh, what? That's 100% big one that, like you said, with. Especially as the leader of the meeting, by golly, be in the room five minutes early. Welcome people, thank them for their time. I always hate it when you. Someone just starts the meeting and they're like, okay, here's what we're going to talk about. The other piece to that that I want to say is most people do not lead or facilitate meetings. I've been in so many meetings where it's just someone that wants to talk.

Yes.

Why the hell am I here? You could easily send this out as an email.

Yes.

Give me all the same information or.

Record it as a video if you really want to be seen.

Right. If I have questions, I will be more than happy to send them to you, but don't make me sit through an hour of you yammering on because you like it or because that's what we've always done.

Yes. Oh, yeah, that's so true.

One of the things that I, from the meeting standpoint, when I'm in charge of them, I do like it because to me, I look at it like a podcast. It's my job to manage this. It's my job. I'm the host. It's my job to facilitate. It's my job to get people to participate. If I need their information, it's the, the. When the one person won't shut the hell up, it's my turn to. Okay, thank you. I'd like to hear from someone else in the room. Yeah, because we've all done that too. I was in a meeting a few weeks ago where it's like someone just irrelevant topics all the time and no one was willing to tell the guy to shut up.

Oh, that's hard.

Except maybe.

Oh, did you. Good job.

In a subtle way. That kind of is in my own brand.

Okay.

Maybe that's the right. It wasn't subtle, but it was, it was, it was on brand for me.

Okay.

Because with, you know, the marketing guy, I have to stay on brand. But to me, it's the other thing that I see with that is the leader, the facilitator.

Yeah.

If you don't get to the objective, your fault.

Yeah. Agreed. 100.

What do you see as the biggest reason why meetings fail?

Poor leadership. You're not defining what you need to do. You're treating it as just any other time. It's not strategy.

No, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one. Would you rather we're gonna play. Would you rather. Would you rather have a virtual or an in person meeting? Oh, if it's one on one, that's different. So I'm going to ask you one on one or as a group?

So group meetings, especially if it's leadership team, I want to be in person. If we're introducing a new concept, we're talking about something that could be uncomfortable. I want to be in person because then you can read body language a little bit differently. You can address, you can call on people. Now we're in a unique situation. Well, not unique because I think a lot of people are like us. We have some employees that are never going to come into the office. So we've had to figure out how do we facilitate those in person meetings with our virtual employees as well. So pulling everybody together and having an all staff meeting when you've got virtual team members and you've got individuals in the room, I think can be a challenge. But I am a fan of in person, especially if it's going to be uncomfortable.

I will agree with you on that. Especially on the uncomfortable part. I mean, there's times where you just need to sit down and be able to look at someone in the eye and say, look, here's what this is. Here's what we need to do about it. The problem is, is we've all seen it. And I'm going to engage with that camera. Right there is. We've all seen it. Where the webcam is different than the screen. So you're saying you're telling someone something difficult like, hey, your performance hasn't been all that great and you're looking up at the ceiling or you're looking away. And I mean, because we've all been in meetings like that where the camera's not in the right spot.

Yeah. Try doing that as a termination Josh, where you're trying to coach someone on a virtual termination and they're not even staring at the person. They're staring, like, in a different place. Like.

Right. They're looking over there. They're looking at the. Looking at. Yes.

Oh, that's a really good one.

The other thing that I talk with people about in terms of virtual meetings is camera position is a key because so many people have their camera low, and when their camera's low and looking up to them, suddenly you're this dominating figure over the camera.

Oh, good point.

If you're trying to get good feedback from your virtual team, don't.

Don't look like their overlord.

Right. Don't loom over them. I was just working with this. With someone that does therapy. Mental health therapy.

Oh, gosh. Yes.

And I'm like, you do not know how big of an issue this is that you need to. Because they're meeting that way. It's a meeting. Make sure that you're presenting in the way that you want to present. I always hate it when you see from, like, chin up on someone and there's like two thirds of the screen above them and you're like.

Or straight up their nose. Straight up their nose.

Right.

I'm knocking from my phone.

Right, Right. You're firing someone. They can see your boogers. Awesome. Awesome. So that is the pieces of virtual meetings. That is the pitfalls that I see with those. And that is why I agree with you in many cases. I do like the. In person, especially for those uncomfort. Comfortable things.

Yeah.

But if you have to do them, I always talk like, camera position. Make sure it's. The camera's at eye level, so that way. And make sure you're looking at the camera. Yeah. Don't. Don't be looking off into the sunset. Your cat does something. No, you have to make sure that you stay focused on it. Speaking of which, what do you do about phones in. In meetings?

Oh, I call them out. Especially in leadership meetings or in your meetings where it's. It's all team. Like, if you've got your. You're leading, but then you've got managers too. Your managers help set the tone for what the expectation is from your team members. So, I mean, I will call them out. I will. I mean, I've been in public meetings because, remember, I volunteer and do some Things in government, and something's gone off, and I've been like, do you need to take that right now? Is what we're doing not important? And I can do it in a night. Like, there's times where I'm nice. There's times where I'm not nice. I mean, if someone is on their phone completely distracted, I will ask them a question. I go, so, hey, Joe, what do you think about this issue that we're talking about? And they're like. I'm like, yeah, come back, please. We need your time.

So the funny thing is, is you do it in a less. You still do it in a way that's brutally honest. Yeah, slightly. Maybe less snarky than me.

Depends. But yes, probably.

What happens when you've got. I mean, we've talked about the larger mixed meetings.

Yes.

Both virtual and in person. What's a tip you'd give to people for something like that? And managing those, because those are extremely difficult because you need to make the people that are on the screen. I need to look at that camera right there and be like, look, I am engaging with you guys on this meeting. But in the same sense, I need to make sure that the people on the table don't think I'm completely ignoring them. So what are. What are some things that you do in order to make sure that everyone feels like they are apart and valued in the meeting so they stay engaged and they don't sit there scrolling on their phone?

Yeah. So we first have a freaking plan, people. It's really easy.

Have we talked about an agenda?

An agenda. But it's not just the agenda. It's also the tone and tenor. So I've got the agenda set, but I'm setting the intention for myself of this is who I'm bringing in into my full person to this meeting. The other thing I would say that some people hate, but I think it's really important, is you have to have an icebreaker. You know what? We're going to go around the room and we're going to do something. I don't care if I'm asked, like, personal identifying, fun fact that you don't mind sharing. Piffy Demus. We do that sometimes. I know. Sometimes my team members hate it. And I'm like, I don't care. It gets us laughing. And I will start like, here. Here's one that I can do. You know, I tap dance for 14 years, and I can do the William Tell Overture with my feet. So, yes, I will show you someday. Not right now.

This explains the dancing clips, doesn't it? I, I, yes, yes.

But go around, I mean, and figure out what those questions can be. It does. I mean, you can ask chat GPT for 20 options. You can ask a team member. Hey, this is the question I'm going to ask. Are you okay with that? If you have someone in your organization who is extremely introverted, give them that question the day before.

Oh, I like that.

So I've had team members that they are terrified to participate and they're not going to say a word unless they know ahead of time. This is what's on the agenda. And this is the question I'm going to ask you. And these are the things I need you to be prepared for. And those team members have been invaluable to our organization, but they're invaluable because we're intentional in how we talk to them.

I love that. And it's funny when you say the icebreaker, because I think those are irritating as hell too.

I agree. But they're important.

What's, what's interesting about that? Because I think in so many cases, so many of them are just so shallow because people ask dumb questions to me. As soon as you said that, it goes back to one of the first things in our run of show as we go through the podcast here is banter. Yes. Because the other thing is it does, is it makes it personal. This is no longer just the big corporate machine talking here. I have officially connected with you. You've connected with me. We've connected with our audience. You've connected with the people that are you are meeting with. So now it is a personal thing. They've become personally involved. It's not like you can just sit and I mean you right out of the gate. Don't let them sit and hide in the corner.

No.

And scroll.

No. And we have the rule with virtual meetings that everybody's camera is on. So. And we don't take the it's broken rule.

No, no, go fix it.

Go fix it. We've had a couple where like their camera is fuzzing in and out and we're like, okay, but we can still see you. You're gonna fix it after this meeting.

I can see that there's still a human on the other end of that. And I always love it when you see like half a cat walk through these. The crappy backgrounds. They're like, oh, look, nice cat butt is so to me. I mean, let's, let's look at some key takeaways here. Active participation.

Yes.

And that's how you start.

Yes.

Ground rules. Clear ground rules. What we're trying to get done, where we're going, the outcomes, action items. Do you typically have someone taking notes?

It depends on the meeting. So it really. Yeah, it really does. If it's a company all staff meeting. No, we record those and so they can be replayed. Team members we have.

And are there AI tools that can help?

There are lots of AI tools that can help with that.

Yeah. It's kind of amazing. Have we mentioned AI on the podcast?

A couple times.

Okay. Just wanted to. I wanted to make sure we get it in on this episode, too, that there's some. Possibly some AI stuff that can help.

Otter, Firefly, Loom, zoom, All the things Google Meets. Google Meets.

Yeah, all of those. Yeah. I like how you got loom and zoom right there.

I did like deliteration in you.

What are your four steps to meeting success?

Oh, these are great. So model what great meetings look like. You have to come prepared, stay focused, start and end on time, and you're the example to everybody else in how to run a good meeting. And if you suck at it, get coaching on how to be better at it. So model what great meetings look like. Number two is set the tone as a culture builder. Make it safe for everybody to speak up. You don't want to have a meeting where nobody's afraid to talk or everybody's afraid to talk. So speak up. When a meeting shouldn't happen too. So if you don't think it should be a meeting, don't make it a meeting. You should. Don't make it a meeting. So that's number two. Number three is focus on decisions and next steps. So every meeting should end with who's doing what by when.

Yes.

Otherwise you're just talking in circles.

And then.

Yeah.

What's funny is as soon as you said model what great meetings look like, I'm like, I need to look better.

Then that's not. No. And then fourth, because there are four steps. Follow up always. So whether somebody's taking notes, sending out summaries, revisit things, have the next check in. So I send to dos. We have a leadership team meeting every week. We have to dos that come out from my assistant that she sends out the next day. So we're all reminded of these are the things that we need to do. Because follow through is where meetings become action. And that is really, I think, why people hate meetings is because things don't get done. Things don't make decisions, but things don't get Done now.

I think I already know the answer to this. When you have next week's meeting, do you make sure that the action items from last meeting were followed up on?

Yes, always. And if they're not, we talk about what do we need to do to get those done. What caused, what caused us not to get those things done. Is it hesitation because it's uncomfortable? Is it lack of resources? Is it, I need somebody else to help me with this because sometimes there's a reason why it didn't get done.

Yep. No. And if you can talk about that openly and honestly, hey, that seems like a good thing to have a meeting about.

Yeah.

What's one common. So our quick shot topics for today.

Yes.

What's one common misconception about meeting efficiency? You'd like to debunk that all meetings.

Have to be more than 15 minutes.

Oh, God, no.

No. You can have a five minute meeting and be very effective. So hot shot, for you, what's the most surprising positive change you've seen in a business after they overhauled their meeting culture?

I actually was a big piece of this with the truck dealership and people hated meetings. And when we started doing them the way I did them, people were like, okay, great, we're in for this. We met like service managers didn't meet weekly and we started meeting with them weekly and it typically ended up being a 15 minute meeting. And they exchanged ideas like, hey, we're doing this. You should try this. Oh, great. We'll talk about it later. Awesome. Those are the things that happen so suddenly because they're productive and they're learning things and they're able to do better things. They got better. I'm terrible at the quick shot stuff.

That's okay.

You're. You're good with the one sentence answers. I am not.

I had effective, efficient, compelling, 10 KSB rule.

It is. It is. I guess I'm less good at that.

You're continuing to improve.

Big surprise there. That all being said, thanks for being willing to listen to me and getting all the great information from Chrissy. I'll put it that way. You're welcome. That's. That's. Yeah, you have all the great information and they're willing to listen to me is the way I'm putting that. So once Again, go to businessfix podcast.com, find us on all the socials under the business Fix, like review. Subscribe. Ask us stuff. Obviously, our last episode, 100% came from a suggestion from someone that's like, hey, I'd really like to learn about this? We have no idea. Oh, wait, no. We are going to talk next week about when it's time to say goodbye. We're not saying goodbye. No, no. But. Well, we are for this episode. This is. See, there's a lot of confusion about when to say goodbye.

Oh, yeah.

That's why I always finish with, do us a favor. Take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else, too, we will. See you.

Sat.