Workplace Romance and the HR Policy Mistakes That Could Be Costing You Company Culture

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So unless you've been hiding under a rock, there's been some recent news of relationships in the workplace and that has been. Has that been an HR topic?

Oh, it's always an HR topic, especially when it's head of hr.

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. I am going to avoid the innuendos that you left the door open for with me because I think like a 9 year old.

Good job.

And yeah, let's. We'll get into the show after this.

She's the CEO, he's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need the business fix. Has there been anything interesting recently for you other than the recent HR flood of HR articles that you now get to read?

So I spent a couple days in Columbus. I'm on the board of the Ohioana Library. So if you are an Ohio author, you have the ability to put your, whether it's music or a book, your collected works into the Ohio Anna Library. So it's a collection of all of the Ohio authors of all time. It's super cool.

Very, very cool.

Yeah.

Productive.

Productive. Yes.

Good.

What about you, Josh?

Recently I was in Chicago for the higher ed podcon in Interesting podcasting conference. Met a ton of great people. Met one of the OG podcasters, Dave Jackson, he's from this area. He started podcasting in like 05.

Okay.

Wow. Right? So he is. When I say OG podcaster, I mean OG podcaster.

Wow. I want to know how you did that.

Right. To get down to. To get the chance to just sit with him through a seminar and talk with him and chat. It was a good time. So. Yeah, yeah, lots of good stuff there. None of that led to an inappropriate work relationship.

Good job. Really, really are my specialty.

So yeah, like I said, if you, if you haven't been hiding under a rock, there's the astronomer CEO and the head of HR at a Coldplay concert were kind of outed maybe to say, right, that. That didn't look like a. It didn't look like a friendly business exchange no. Yeah. There's just a whole lot of things there that you're like, okay. Workplace romances. Yep. 60% of people have had one.

Yeah.

Your career has been kind of siloed. I mean, you've got diverse stuff. Yes, my career has been like, tributaries. I have been all over the place. So I have experience with a workplace relationship, actually, two of them.

Okay.

So I have a different perspective on this than the HR people. So this should be interesting, because some of them lead to positive outcomes. Again, some of them lead to marriage.

They can.

Some of them, like when there's already an existing marriage, that's a problem or challenge that there can become some issues with that maybe. I don't really think we need to cover, like, the. The immediate, obvious issues. No, yeah. No, I. I don't. I. I don't think we do, but. So your initial take as the HR person. And I know you're. I'm not going to call you the HR dictator.

Thank you. The love police. Thank you. The fun killer.

Right, the fun killer. What's your take on this?

So Julie Wheeler, one of our HR business partners, says, don't have your honey where you make your money. And I just. She said that to me today.

That's awful.

So. But it's not necessarily true. I mean, there are. There's. There's a lot of things that can happen in workplace romance. But what I would say is, you know, there's a couple things. You know, leadership carries weight even when you're off the clock.

Yes.

So, you know, whether you mean to or not, you're influencing how safe it feels to speak up, take risks, get honest feedback. So if you're in a relationship with someone, that can change the dynamics of your organization. There's also the argument of there are 6 billion people in the world. Could you pick a different one? Not one that you work with, but that doesn't always happen. So, you know, workplace relationships don't just affect you, they affect your culture. So fairness things can't thrive in a climate of confusion. So nothing creates confusion faster than unclear relationship boundaries. It puts your company at risk, especially if you don't disclose those relationships. If there's a power imbalance, it can be a challenge. You know, there are better ways to build connection at work. I mean, save the spark for outside the org chart.

There's better ways to. Better ways to build a connection at work.

Yes.

Yeah. Don't network at a nudist colony.

No.

That kind of. Stick with that.

No. And have you forgotten this is going.

To be A tough episode to get through for you.

And I will say it's something. We deal with relationships at work all the time. And I will tell you too, if you're a family business, don't be a hypocrite and have a non fraternization policy, because if you're husband and wife and you work in the office together. Stop it. You can't. The rules for the. But not for me. That doesn't work. You got to have. You got to have some things figured out. So what else do you have, Josh? I have lots of answers today.

No, I know you do. And it's funny because like I said, you're essentially. You're telling all this stuff to a 13 year old.

Yeah.

What's funny? So the, the honey and money thing is as a general guideline. Sure. But I'm going to go against that a little bit.

Okay.

Because there are ways that it can work, but it has to be intentional.

Absolutely.

My ex, we worked for the same company for, I believe, four years together.

Okay.

Then I moved on from the company.

Not.

Not from the rel. Well, I have moved on from the relationship, but I moved on from the company and she stayed there. But nonetheless, we were intentional about making it so. I mean, people knew we were together.

Yes, but you talked about it, right? You disclosed.

Yes, but in the same sense, we worked at opposite ends of the building.

Didn't do the same job.

We did not do the same job.

Neither one of you reported to one another.

We didn't report to each other. We had pretty much almost no work interactions whatsoever.

Good.

Right. So to me, that is the. The way to do it is. What's funny about it is, is our shift started a half an hour apart.

Okay.

I'm not sitting at work for an extra half an hour when I was just an hourly employee to. So, gosh, no. We drove separate.

Okay.

I think in the four years that we were there together, I think we had lunch together like three or four times.

Okay.

So we. We made sure that we kept it separate enough. I would say that everyone knew, hey, yeah, they're together. But in the same sense that that checklist that you had, I really liked. So is there a power dynamic between the two?

Are.

Does one have a big effect on the other? Yeah, because what I don't like is the. Don't have your honey where you make your money. Okay. That it's a.

It's more about if you're in leadership. You got to think about that if there's a power, like if you're the CEO, this is not your dating pool. Shouldn't be. No, really shouldn't be your dating partner.

And that, that, to me is. So what I don't like about the, the saying there is. It's a generalization that really is broad reaching. What's tough is, is so many people, they almost need to use that as a guideline because they don't think about the ramifications of it. Yeah, obviously there is a certain couple that was at a Coldplay concert that didn't think that there was going to be any consequences to this. Because you know what? No one's going to see this. No one's going to figure this out. You know, you're kind of in a public place, especially when you have a company with a large number of employees. People will see you.

They will. And there is an issue with perception.

100.

So I will say relationships at work are tricky. And they're tricky not because people are bad, but because emotions, power dynamics, blurred lines are real. And if you're the leader, you're carrying added weight and how others perceive those relationships, even when nothing's actually wrong. So there's always perception of conflict of interest. And I mean, I don't care how good the intentions are. If someone's making decisions that benefit a person they're close to, it creates imbalance. Oh, 100% imbalance kills culture faster than bad coffee in the break room.

No, because I'll drink bad coffee if I see an imbalance of power. You know me well enough to know I am not going to be quiet about that.

No. And perceived conflicts of interest you're thinking about. You know, if people are walking around saying, well, it's probably because they're close, you've already lost control of the narrative. If people are saying, well, the reason that Betty gets all the promotions is because she's dating Bob. And like, that's. I mean, and if you ignore it, you'll be dealing with resentment and division and potentially a lawsuit. And then you've got to deal with those hierarchical issues. You've got implied pressure, you've got favoritism, the perception of those things. I mean, you can mentor someone you're in a power imbalance with and call it objective. Or you can't. Sorry, you can't. Can't mentor. You can't mentor someone. No, you're in a power imbalance with. And call it objective. At best, it causes tension. At worst, you've got to deal with legal trouble. So, I mean, it's foreign.

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I'll give you a few seconds to go to the website while we get ready to get back to the show. Have you. Have you. Have you ever consulted with people on the legal trouble, possibly on the potential.

Of, oh, we have this issue. It's like you knew you had this issue and like, that person is either leaving or you've got a hostile work environment with other employees. I mean, there are so many things that it can do if you are not disclosing that relationship, not managing it effectively. I mean, there's several different things. There's the productivity drain of like, I've never seen a team get more productive by wondering if Bob and Lisa are still together. It's like the own soap. The soap opera in your organization. So there's like, wonder what they're gonna say today. Oh, they glared at each other. Oh, she doesn't look like she's talking to him anymore. Are they breaking up? Are they getting, like, what's going on? I mean, like, it's the office romance, and then there's the eggshell effect. So people are like, you know, I don't know if I want to ask this question. Are they together? Are they not together? If this person. There's a hierarchical issue and you're dealing with those power dynamics. I mean, when people start self editing around leadership, you lose creativity, you lose collaboration. Culture doesn't thrive in caution tape at all. So you've got that eggshell effect. And then there's the super sleuthing. This one's my favorite.

You have that one person that is going to just, oh, I think this is happening. What do you think?

Exactly. Here comes the rumor mill. I mean, if your team spends more time decoding dynamics than doing their jobs, you've got gossip culture. You don't have a growth culture. And I mean, I cannot tell you how many times we've watched organizations just spin their wheels, because we know that there's a power dynamic and there's an issue and there's a relationship that somebody doesn't want to disclose. And now you're dealing with the IT department, trying to figure out if the head of sales and the head of marketing are having a relationship. How is that helpful for you? Do they really need to be in their emails going, did they ask each other out? How's this going? Can we look at their company text messages? Let's look at their Slack channel. Like, why? Why? And then there's the other issue, which we, which we've talked about in our organization, how not disclosing relationships effectively can lead to violence. And I'm not talking about domestic violence. I'm talking about individuals that get frustrated because they know that somebody's in a relationship and there is an unfair power dynamic, and they lash out and they get frustrated and they explode in the workplace. Not because they're frustrated with their job, but because they're frustrated because this person is performing and getting unfair treatment or they believe they're getting unfair treatment.

What? I mean, we've talked about some of the bad pieces this. And still yet people are going to remain intimately active with each other in the workplace. Maybe hopefully not in the workplace, but around.

Tell them no, and they do it anyway.

Around the workplace. What is your take on, like, creating the culture that says it's okay if you want a date, but, like, make sure that this is. Make sure we're doing this for the right reasons. Make sure that this isn't a power dynamic. Make sure that this isn't one of the things that's going to land us in court.

Yes. So we talked about in other podcasts about the D word of documentation. So now we're going to talk about the D word of disclosure. So creating a disclosure policy and enforcing it consistently. Consistently, always. And one thing I will say is that HR should report always to the CEO unless there's a conflict relationship. And then HR needs to report to the CFO or the coo. So you've got to make sure that those power dynamics are correct. But I think there's, there's a few essential elements to, you know, kind of making sure you don't make those common mistakes. The first is always acknowledge it happens.

Yep.

Okay. You can say absolutely not. People are still going to do it.

Well, and to touch on that, the thing that I found is, and I rem. Remember this as plain as day. I was 16, I was working at a muffler shop.

Oh.

And the manager there said, look, you're going to spend more time with me than you are. Like, when you get older and get married, you're going to spend more waking hours with me than your wife.

Yeah. You do a lot of life together when you work together. Yeah, you do.

Yeah. So, I mean, to me, acknowledging that it happens because, yes, people spend a lot of time together. Some of them are going to get feelings for each other. Yes, it happens.

So we acknowledge it happens. Next we have the disclosure process and that it's not to shame people. It's to protect the business and the team from perceptions of favoritism and retaliation. And I think we need to talk to our people and tell them that disclosure isn't tattling. It's clarity. It lets leadership set boundaries before things get messy. And then the next thing is clear boundaries for the reporting structure. Right. You can love each other or you can lead each other, but you don't get to do both. You got to pick. So if someone's in a romantic relationship with their supervisor, that reporting line must be adjust. Got to move that person. They cannot report to the person they're in a relationship with.

And I've got a question, though, going back to the disclosure process.

Yeah.

You said something in there that I like someone that worked in other businesses outside. I realized, why the hell would I want to disclose it? What you said to protect the company. Well, frankly, I don't care about the company if I'm an employee. If the culture's bad, if the culture's bad, if there's a culture where everyone in the office is banging everyone else.

That'S a different problem.

Right. So, but to me. Yeah, how do you frame that so people want to and are willing to disclose their relationship rather than just feeling like, hey, I'm supposed to tell the cops I parked wrong.

No, it's not just protecting the organization. It's also protecting you. So if you want to have longevity at that company, you want to get promoted, you want to make sure that you are being heard, your performance evaluations are being done correctly and the way that they're supposed to. And there's not any unfair favoritism or misperception. It just makes it. It makes it easier to disclose it. So it's really. It's about protecting the organization. When we're thinking about the HR perspective of we should have a policy as to why that person should disclose, it's really to protect them. We create the policy to protect the organization. Individuals subscribe and abide by the policy to protect them as well. So I think that's where it's really.

Important and to me to make sure it's framed that way for the employees, because I'm big on making sure that we point out to people why this is beneficial to them. Because if I say this is beneficial to the company for you to do this, well, there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be like, trying to care. I don't care.

Exactly. Well, but what's really important, I think, especially when you're dealing with the individuals that are running the business, is consistency. Constantly enforcing the policy. Yes. Because your policy is only as strong as your willingness to enforce it in your leadership team. And so that's it. We need to model the behavior that we want to see in the world. So if we have a CEO and head of HR who are secretly having a relationship, no one's going to want to disclose that they're having relationships that are, that are down further in the, in the pecking order. It's just not going to happen. Culture doesn't survive double standards.

No, no. Well, a culture does, but it's, it's more like a bacterial culture at that.

Point, not a good one. And the other part is, you know, as we talk about culture, it's really about having culture connected language. So policy shouldn't feel like it's a legal scare tactic. Sure, yeah. It should reflect your culture, whether that's warm and transparent, professional and buttoned up, or somewhere in between. I would say if you're really working on. Unless it is a non fraternization policy, it's 100%. This is it. No, no, no. You've got to have some warm language around what relationships are, because it's not about killing connection when we have these types of policies. It's about keeping connection from killing your credibility. And I think that's the biggest part. When we talk to employees, this is about protecting you. This is about protecting your credibility and maintaining your integrity. If you're a small business owner navigating the world of marketing or looking to establish yourself as an industry expert, you already know the power of a great podcast.

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Back to the show.

100%. That, that to me makes very good sense.

Yeah. So I've got some questions for you. So I mean, talking from an operational. I know you are. I was trying to stay professional and run through the question before you did that. So from an operational standpoint, how do you see workplace romances impacting team productivity?

It's interesting because it's, it's one of those things where like initially you see this helpfulness between the two people and then you see resentment from everyone else. So two people become really productive because they're like, hey, I love being at work because so and so is at work and I'm just going to be happy, go lucky and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And everyone else is staring at them like, you guys suck.

Uh huh. We hate you. Way to find love in a hopeless place. What?

Couldn't have said it better myself. So to me, that is the thing that I see as the problem, especially if it's people that work closely together. And that's, that's when it often happens. Anytime I've seen something like that, it's typically with people that are working together. It's not like my situation was different because it was set up from a third party essentially across the building. This is most cases it's two people that work pretty closely together and that's, they're like, oh, wow. I love, I love how they ship boxes. They put things in with such care. I'm sure they're going to treat me just as well. Maybe Right, right this week. So yeah, it's those types of things that, and to me, it's one of those. I love how you put it. You need to move people.

Yeah.

In a way. So there's, I don't want to say so there's not a direct connection, but you need to make it so that there is some distance there because we don't, we don't want a lovey dovey culture.

No.

It just doesn't work.

No. So let's talk about when it doesn't go well. I mean, I will tell you that if you have, if you silo sales and you silo marketing, if you have people in relationships and sales with marketing, it should still, they still shouldn't interact. Oh.

But no.

What do you do when things may just not go as well, like, not everybody gets married or has a long term committed relationship rolls into the sunset together. What do you do when they're sitting across the conference table from each other in a meeting, glaring at one another, going, you're an idiot.

And you start. You started that out. What happens if. And I was just. It was all I could do not to interrupt you and be like, when exactly?

Because it's going to happen whether they stay together or not. There's going to be conflict.

It is. And to me, it is one of those things that this is where a culture of transparency comes in to be like, look, I understand you hate each other. That's fine. I can totally see why you called his wife. I get it. I can understand why you two are not talking outside of this. We have a job to get done.

Yeah.

Either. I mean, I'm okay with giving people some leeway for a short period of time to adjust things, but I better see progress.

Yeah.

Immediately. To say, look, we're moving in the right direction. And if someone isn't moving in the right direction, typically what I have found there is one person that is being more difficult about it than the other. And at that point, you have to start looking at their work performance. Your work performance is here. I need your work performance back up here. And it sucks. It's difficult. And this is. This is the problem with the working relationship. Because in so many cases, if it goes sideways, it can very easily result in someone's termination unless they can figure out, hey, you know what? That didn't work. We're going to be friends.

Yeah.

And that was a Seinfeld episode too, because Jerry's like, that's simple. We're just. We're just like Jerry and Elaine. They went out and they became best friends. No problem. But unless you see that happening, unless someone's willing to straighten out, it may result in the termination, which sucks. So think about that as you put people working together that may be in a relationship.

Yeah. So let's talk about training and development. So beyond policies, because I'm good at the documentation part. What training support. You think managers need to effectively navigate those complexities? I mean, what. How do you train a manager to deal with workplace romance on their teams? I mean, I know how we deal with some of those things, but I want to. I want to hear your perspective.

To me, that's when I roll out the television that has the metal. The big old box TV that has the metal str. Holding it down, and I pull out the 80s sexual harassment video and say, Guys, watch this. It's not.

Okay, I'm done asking you questions.

To me it is the first off, it's awareness. The second thing is the biggest thing. And this is the thing that I heard most about that astronomer thing. Trust.

Yeah.

There is no one in that company that is going to trust that CEO with anything anymore.

No.

So if you have a culture of trust and a culture of openness and a. This is once again, and this is why I think we talk about the culture so much is you have to put an effort into it. But an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of solution. And that is the case with so many of these things. If you have the, the right culture put in place to begin with. And when Bob and Betty decide, hey, we're going to. We. The whole group went out for drinks and where Bob and Betty go, they're missing. Right.

I'd be in a closet and a whole nother documentation.

Right. But I mean when, when they realize that there is the relationship here. When they say, hey, look, we're dating and we need to figure this out. The problem is, is what's tough about that.

Yeah.

Is of course, especially in that lovey dovey eye, like the, the misty eyed phase where everyone's like, oh, this person's amazing. They want to spend every second with them.

Yeah.

And that is when you need to rip them apart and be like, look, I mean we're, we're either you're either going to have the relationship or you're going to have the work relationship and it's okay. Go to lunch together.

Yeah.

Do those things. Awesome. But we need to have some separation here of some of these things.

And we're paying you to get work done.

Correct. And you'll, like I said, you'll often see that, that uptick in their performance right up front. Because they're both like, oh, we're going to get so many things done together and it doesn't last and it makes everyone else perform so much worse. So to me, it is making sure that you have that culture upfront where like, hey, the other thing that I want to say to that real quick is too, is when someone previously when I was at the truck dealership, someone came to me and said, hey, these two people are dating. Okay. That's how that needs to be handled. Okay. Thank you. That's it.

Yeah.

Not really. Oh my God.

You don't get to be the center of gossip if you wear hr. That's not how that works. That's not good hr.

And it's To. To say, really? And thank you. And done.

Yeah.

And then do your own observation. Do your own, but don't ask around about it. Like, hey, do you think Bob and Betty are dating?

We're not super sleuthing. Don't do it.

No. Do your own personal investigation without letting anyone else know. Occasionally visit them. Occasionally call them and say, like, hey, are they spending. Like, every time I walk by their office, they're. They're in the same office. Then you know, okay, that there's something to this, but go look for the obvious with that, too.

Yeah, I like that.

There's some we've got here on our notes. Common mistakes businesses make. Now, I realize where we're at in this episode. We're a couple of 20 minutes in 20 minutes and change at least. And I feel like this is an episode on its own.

Common mistakes.

Common mistakes as it relates to.

We don't have. We can. I mean, I would say really quickly those common mistakes with relationships.

I mean, let's talk about them. But I think it could be. It could be its whole own episode.

Yeah. I mean, just shortly. I mean, it's ignoring it completely. We're just gonna pretend it's not there. You don't get to do that. Head in the sand. Doesn't make you look professional.

I don't see them in their office all the time. We don't see this. We don't see them making out on love.

I have no idea what's going on.

Right.

I'm going to pretend it's not happening. I mean, we talk about hope is not a policy. I hope it's not happening. Hope's not a policy. Transparency is. The next one is, you know, writing a policy that's all bark, no bite. So if your policy says absolutely prohibited, but you're making exceptions for senior leadership or you've looked the other way, trust me, your team knows. And they're not impressed. They're not. They're not dealing with it. So all bark, no bite.

It's funny that you say that, because to me, the. The problem is, is when some people see that, they're like, okay, well, they work together, but they're both single. They're both newly single. This isn't going to last.

It's fine. She's still got to have a policy.

Right. And the problem is, is to me, you have to act pretty quickly when you see that people are in a relationship and you have to say, look, we're going to need to probably move you.

Yeah.

Just so there's not that Tight bond. I mean, if you both do the same job, we may need to move someone else to something El. Or create some form of separation. And to me that it's tough to do that because you're like, ah, they'll be done in a week and a half. No, but you still have to make sure that you do that at the time when you find out you do.

And I think what's important, and it goes to that last common mistake of, you know, making it punitive. So you've got to make sure that it doesn't feel punitive. The goal isn't to shame people for being human. Don't do that.

You sure?

Yeah. It's to protect the company and ensure fairness. That's the whole point. So, I mean, don't make it sound like a threat. Make a framework of clarity and accountability. I mean, and don't make it, oh, I think you're in a relationship, you're going to that corner and you're going to that corner. Don't do that.

It's not kindergarten.

It's not kindergarten. And especially. Here's the other part that I think, Josh, you have. You separate people, especially at the relationship side, where you see that it is potentially getting serious. And there is an issue with power dynamic. It's power dynamic that causes you to go from one room to another room or one department to another. That is the biggest issue. If you are falling in love with your boss and your boss is falling in love with you, then you need to disclose it because you need to take a lateral move somewhere else because you cannot be managed by your boss. And you both need to go together because it's really awkward if you go to HR and you're like, I'm in love with my boss. And your boss is like, I have no idea what they're talking about. About. And so that, like, it's really important that you're on the same page.

I think there's a story behind that.

There's a lot of stories about that behind that.

What's interesting to me about it is, and I have seen this in action is the office. When Michael and Jan were dating, so many things in the office were blown so far out of proportion. And that is one where I don't think it was. No, it really wasn't. Because then, I mean, you have to realize, too, at some points, Michael was holding Jan hostage. Yes, in some ways, because she realized this is not a good idea for multiple reasons. But when you look at it from a business standpoint, there was so many Pieces of that where I'm like that. I mean, I don't want to say it was underrepresented, but in the same sense, a lot of things in office were overblown. I don't think this is one of them.

I don't think they're. How they took relationships was not. It was. It was reality.

And as soon as you say that, too, it was Ryan. And I can't think of her name. Mindy. Colleague. Oh, yeah. I can't remember her name in the show, but yeah, that same relationship just. And, I mean, they dated. And when Ryan went to corporate, she was still manipulating him.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, this is why. This is just a tough deal. And a. And once again, I get why it.

Happens, but it's dealing with the human part. It's hard. I know.

Humans. Damn them. So what. What's some key takeaways here? Because. And the other thing is that I want to say let's talk about key takeaways and actionable stuff here.

Okay. So pretending it's not happening. Biggest mistake. 100 relationships are going to happen.

I don't see it.

Denial is not a leadership strategy.

I can't see it. Nope, it's not there.

Again, we just keep saying hope is not a policy.

No.

So perception is reality in the workplace. Really think about that. Even if a relationship doesn't directly cause a conflict of interest, the perception of favoritism, bias, or blurred lines is going to erode trust fast. So don't underestimate that ripple effect.

I agree.

So it's really. Pay attention. Power dynamics change everything. You can lead someone or date someone. We've said that before. But you can't do both. You got to pick a lane. That's it. You want actionable steps? Pick a lane. Pick a lane. And then when leaders get too close, responsibility is on them to act. That's the other part. You've really got to teach personal responsibility, especially in this space. And if you've got some. I mean, boundaries aren't barriers, they're safety rails. So think about it that way. Yeah. And then strong workplace romance policy is proactive, not punitive.

Correct.

Don't weaponize the policy. And that's where HR can be the fun killer, the love killer, the love police. You use it to create clarity and protect culture.

I wholeheartedly agree with that. And you can write it. I don't want to say loose, but you can write it in a way that doesn't mean, like, at day six, you're both fired. No, write it in a way that gives you the ability to move on it in an appropriate manner, but just make sure that it's felt appropriate by everyone.

Yeah. Because a good policy acknowledges that people are human and it sets expectations. It doesn't. It's not punitive. It applies equally to everyone, no matter how senior they are. Yes. A romance work policy, Romance at work policy applies to a CEO. It sure as heck applies to the head of hr. They should know better. They probably wrote the policy, so.

I heard they did. Oh, yeah, Yeah, I heard they did.

As.

As an executive.

Yeah.

Hypothetically, someone's an executive, they're getting too close.

Yes.

To a subordinate. And as an executive, kind of everyone's your subordinate. What do you do? Besides, I mean, obviously, don't stand on the balcony professing your love.

No. With a boombox. Don't. Don't do that.

Throw rocks at their office, get their attention.

Okay. So in seriousness, you can be kind and you can be human, but you cannot afford to be careless. So as a leader, you are always modeling the culture that you value. So that means if it feels personal, you need to pause and protect your professionalism. You need to protect your team and your integrity, and everyone will thank you later for that. So really, it's just, if you think it's going in that direction, you need to have that conversation with that person efficiently and quickly. And then you need to say, look, if this is the direction that we're going in, we need to go talk to hr. Yeah. Or we need to talk to who the person is that. I mean, whether it's the person, their boss that they're reporting to. If it's. If it is a hierarchical relationship, you are going to hr the minute you think it could be serious and even the minute of, I think I'm going to ask this person out, you might want to do that, too. I mean, I'm not going to say you have to if that's not what's in your policy, but if I were that person, be saying, look, I think I may have feelings for this person before I do something dumb.

Let's talk through it to add to that real quick. For security reasons.

Yeah.

You can also seek outside counsel from fractional hr.

Yes.

From, you know, someone that does that.

We do, and we love these situations.

Because to me, great. You may not want to tell hr, hey, I think I'm falling for a subordinate. You may not want to say that up front, but to someone internal.

Yeah.

And we know some HR people are not exactly vaults in terms of.

No. Oftentimes they leak like sieves. And so having a third party as the reporting arm, which we act like for a lot of organizations where I don't feel comfortable with this, I'd want a red flag report to your organization and say instead of we provide that service. So yeah, you're right on target.

Makes sense.

So what lessons have you learned from Astronomer and what's your takeaway as a manager?

Don't be stupid. Really, to me the biggest thing is, and I saw a ton of articles on it afterwards and it was 100% about the erosion of trust.

Yeah.

And it's the, when you look at it, trust is when it comes to culture and a company, trust is the most valuable thing that that is, that is 100% it. Because if people don't trust you to do the right thing, they're not, they just. What do they have? Absolutely nothing.

There's no loyalty there.

Right. People say that there's no loyalty with employees anymore. Well, have you really been loyal to them? Have you shown them that you trust them?

Agree.

That is a two way street. And this to me, when I saw that it like saw a couple of the articles about that, I'm like, wow, that, I mean it really hit home how much trust is that key anchor of culture. And if they, I mean if your own wife can't trust you.

Yeah.

How can anyone in the business trust you? Especially when there's something, I mean there's money involved.

Yes.

There are hundreds of lives, hundreds of livelihoods involved with this now. Yeah. That's, I mean it comes to, this is your culture and it's about trust.

Great.

That being said, I didn't make too many good job innuendos or inappropriate remarks. Sure. I, I'm going to, as soon as we're done hitting the record button here, I will go outside and just feel all sorts of horrific things that make you make me sound like a 12 year old boy. Nonetheless, Chrissy, thank you once again. This always as always hugely educational. Make sure you go to business fix.com, hit the business fix on all the social medias, leave a review and we'd love to hear what you guys want us to talk about. Follow, subscribe, all that other thing. Next time we're going to, we're going to talk more culture stuff. We're going to talk about consistency. We mentioned that today.

Yeah.

And we are going to really dive into consistency as culture. Do me a favor, take care of yourself. You can take care of someone else too. We will see you very, very soon.