Badassery Pays | Beatrice Gutknecht

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Brooklyn, New York. I used to think that New York City was homogeneous and it was just this big, huge city until I went to Brooklyn a couple of years ago and realized it was nothing like Manhattan. At all. Anyway, thank you for listening. Joining me today, Beatrice Gutknecht with Badassery by B. Did I pronounce that correctly, Beatrice?

You did. Thank you so much for having me on, Christian. It's a little bit dark on my side and it's bright on your side. Like, gotta love—

That's totally fine. We only do audio for the podcast. This is just for, you know, voyeurism purposes. So I like the name Badassery by Bee. What does that mean? What is badassery about?

So badassery, much to quite a few people's surprise, it actually just means doing actions or in general to an exceptional level. So whatever it is, so the way that I, in general, with my life, with the business, and how my goals are with the businesses that I work with, is like everything needs to be exceptional. We, we want to get you to an exceptional point, and even to to push back on those social norms.

Yeah, I love that. So how did Badassery by Bee— I almost said Beatrice. I'm going to fumble on this one. How did Badassery by Bee, a.k.a. Beatrice, how did it come into being?

Oh man, that is a story. Let's see if I can do a short form of it. So for a long time, um, I had been thinking about a lot of different businesses, but partner at that time, they're like, oh, you know, just, just, just wait, like, get it, get like a secure job, and then you can do whatever you like. And I listened. And same thing, like, you know, whenever I came up with an idea, they just kept on saying things until I was like, oh, you know what, maybe this idea is stupid. And then time passed, a lot of time passed, and obviously no longer with them and discovered my voice and pushed back against the norms of like, we need to do the things, the shoulds. Like, you know, we should sound like this, we should take this action in life, we should take this action in business, be it like, you know, whatever the other businesses in that same industry are doing. And that, that took a few different roles. You know, I've been in real estate where I met my mentor. She pulled out like my voice, and that's, that's when I started to develop it. And Finally, after my mom passed away and 5 years later my dad, and combine that with a military coup, I was like, you know what? I think this is time. This is time to start Badass Ray by Bae.

Okay, pause. Were you participating in this coup? No.

No, no. So, um, I born and grew up in Australia, and I moved to Myanmar when I was 20-something. 20-something.

That works.

Just getting old. I can't remember the age at that point.

It gets worse, don't worry about it.

Oh my God. But I fell in love with the country. And to me, Myanmar was home for 10 years until COVID happened. And I was like, you know what, fine, I'm going to learn Burmese. I'm going to start learning Burmese because the job that I had at that time, it was a hotel. And they're like, okay, COVID, no hotels, we're not doing this. Fine, right? Uh, started up with a good friend of mine as a chief operations officer for startup e-commerce company. Was doing amazing, put together this fantastic marketing campaign, got it rolling. The sales started like, you know, within 2 weeks of that, just to differentiate that as a different e-commerce company from the others, right? Right. Smack bang then, I found out that my dad had passed. I was trying to contact him and he never picked up, and I was like starting to get worried. And finally went through all the contacts that I had for him, and finally I found someone and contacted him. He's like, yeah, actually, your dad and I, we haven't been friends for a couple of years now. And I'm like, look, I haven't heard from him, and I'm really kind of worried. This is his address. There's this 'There's a pub that he goes to every day which is nearby there. Maybe you can reach out to someone there in case they've seen him.' And so he went to that pub and met with the owner, and they got to the apartment. They let them in and finally found my dad. He called me. And he's like telling me all this, and I'm like, okay, you know what, what else? And he's like, look, I, I don't know how you're not crying right now, but like, I need to hang up and cry. And I'm like, I do too, but like, I'm just, you know, I'm handling this right now. And right, yeah, so hung up and freaking That was the start of a week of just— well, actually a couple of years of just insanity. Because a week later, one dude decided he wanted to take over the country, and he staged a military coup, shut down all the internet for a couple of days, so no access to anyone else in the rest of the world. Which was perfect timing because I needed to speak to these people. Yeah. Which at that time, you know, they were complete strangers who volunteered to go through my dad's apartment, um, because again, COVID, can't like exactly leave the country because I didn't know I was going to be able to come back, to go through things to keep, things to donate, etc. And they're like, oh yeah, we'll do a video chat. I'm like, I I don't know if this is going to be possible because like internet and international connection, which, you know, we take it for granted right now. You're on the other side of the world. I'm here. It's easy. But that was crazy.

So after that, so, well, so, so, so this coup happened in Myanmar. Pronounce it for me again.

Myanmar.

Myanmar.

Or Burma.

Burma. Happened when?

2021, the 1st of February.

Okay. My wife and I support an orphanage there in Myanmar. Never been there, but one of our sisters in Christ has established it. Actually created it. And so, yeah, I would love to visit someday. Not right now, but sometime soon.

Yeah, sadly it's not well known because, you know, there's always something going on, but the situation is still— it's still getting worse, you know. The coup is still—

yeah, well, then you had the earthquake recently.

Yeah, that was last week. People were like messaging me as well. They were like, you know, I know that you You're not there anymore, but like, you know, you've made that connection to a lot of people. And thankfully, the people that I know weren't affected, but for the people who were, that's the exact same area where the majority of the fighting was or is. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, okay. So I'm going to redirect this back to, uh, you had a partner that said basically take the safe route. My wife, when I told her that I was going to start our business, actually cried. So I get that. Like, the people around you as an entrepreneur don't understand you and oftentimes think you're crazy. But it's not just that they think you're crazy. Okay, you know, do your thing. It's a lot of times they actually discourage you because they're afraid and like they're trying to put that on you. Did you feel that?

Oh, 100%. 100%. Because he had bad experiences in terms of partnerships. And I saw that firsthand. And from that, I would never actively try to get into a partnership because I've seen so many go bottoms up. Bottoms up, is that the right word?

But tits up, bottoms up, whatever.

No, I just— because of that, I think he just was like, oh, you know, there's, you know, this has already been done, or this— like, he's always— he was always trying to make some reason, right? Like, it was just— he, he had his person and I wasn't that person. Like, we weren't a fit, but we're just holding on to it.

Yeah, I mean, I think about that. You said you avoid partnerships, and I don't disagree with you. My attorney and close friend describes business partnerships as marriage without the sex. And, you know, I don't think people go into partnerships especially without a lot of experience. Like, you know, I didn't have experience when I first did partnerships, and they don't really understand the intimacy level that you're committing yourself to. Like, you are married. Like, your lives are together. Only you don't get to have sex with them.

And the biggest thing I noticed is in the partnerships that I've seen, they were— because they're either friends or whatever, there was a relationship and there was never proper, you know, dating, right? Like, like, written.

No, no, they never put anything in writing. That'd be like a prenuptial, you know, you, hey, I trust you, you trust me. I mean, I'm, you know, but yeah, yeah.

So that's—

or a lot of times they don't date, like they don't really know each other. That, that well. Like, they know each other surface level, but they, you know, have you traveled with them? Do you know what it looks like when they're pissed off? I mean, like, you know, do you know how they react to things? Usually there's— that's not there.

Yeah. And then it goes badly at the end because there wasn't any writing in place. Like, hey, you know, if we— if this happens, this is what's how it's going to go. No, then they— and it ends up getting super messy.

Yeah. And creatives are exceptionally bad at this. There's a partnership that I'm aware of here in Oklahoma City, and it was very high profile. And it was two creatives that got together. And I don't know how well they knew each other beforehand, but they're the uber creative types that, you know, that had this grand vision and they kind of hype each other up and like, this is going to be awesome. And then they actually go into business together and then they're like, well, now what do we do? I'm not sure how we do this. Right. And, and so, yeah, partnerships generally bad. I talk about that in my book, Profit First for Creatives. But, okay. So going into business, you've been in it a couple of years. What have been some of your biggest challenges?

So I think it was how I approached it at the beginning. Um, it's, it's just very much been an evolution based on like feedback and really honing in, like seeing what makes sense and what aligns with me as well. Because when I first started it, um, Badass Straight By B was a brand and marketing consultancy. And I recognized very quickly, I was like, if you're gonna do both, there is just way too much in both of those areas to be able to do them very well unless you're an agency. And I recognized very quickly, I was like, this is not what I'm gonna do. So I honed in very quickly to brand because that's always cool to me regardless of what I've done beforehand— marketing, brand, etc. And that has further evolved. I guess that the niche is really cool to me in terms of the operational implementation side of brand strategy because of my experience managing hotel being a chief operations officer, like really being in the operations, in the sales, marketing, all the areas. And I saw that as a gap much later on that, you know, a lot of the strategists that are quite active, they're either focused like, okay, you know, I'm solely visuals focused, but they put themselves as brand strategists, or it's like, hey, let's give you a 69-page document of guidelines which no one's really going to read, right?

Right, right.

So it's been a journey really of understanding what my— A, not giving too much, which is not really feasible, to what is my position amongst other brand strategists. It's easy to help others, but to do it ourselves, holy shit.

Yeah. And I think that's a mistake most entrepreneurs make at some point is not being focused enough. You know, when I started my business 28 years ago, I bought a franchise, so it was easier to have a well-defined business model. Like, I knew exactly who I was looking for and what we were doing and what to charge and how to market that. And that's one of the benefits of buying an already proven system with the franchise. But as I grew over the years and left the franchise network, I drifted into that saying yes and just really focusing from my standpoint. I was focusing on the top line. I just want to grow and ended up with a mess because we were like doing all these different types of services for all different types of people. And I talk about this in the book too, that like the decision to intentionally shrink, to say, okay, we're going to sell off this side of the business. We're going to fire these clients. Like, we're going to actually simplify what we're doing and shrink it backwards was one of the most gut-wrenching decisions I ever made because it felt like failure. It was like, I built it to this level. And And the funny thing is, I mean, we shrunk probably by 20 or 30%. When I look at the numbers from start to finish of that process, it was 10 years before we got back to where we had started from a financial standpoint. And, you know, there are a lot of factors in there. It shouldn't have taken that long. But my point is, it's easier if you have that type of clarity and focus up front and don't deviate from it unless there's some strategic reason to. So your experience is my experience, only you figured it out quicker. Well, I mean, you know, some people are dense like me and it takes, you know, some would say stubborn.

I think it's also looking at what the market is doing. It's easy, so easy to be influenced by what others are doing in the market, like other people who have been there for 10 years, and they're like, oh, they're doing it, so surely it should be fine for me to do that. Surely. Yeah, no.

Well, it's, it's interesting. I, so like recently in the last 2 years, private equity has started buying accounting firms in the United States. Before that, they couldn't legally own accounting firms. Non-CPAs couldn't. And so they changed that rule and all of this money's come flooding in. But what's, what's an interesting byproduct of that is you get, you're getting people that have never been in the industry getting into the industry, and so they don't have any of the baggage, right? And so they're looking at things and just basically flipping over tables. They're like, this is stupid, we're going to do this, you know? And yeah, because I think it's become even more so that every business is having to iterate quicker. You know, you can't just have a business and set it on autopilot and, you know, it works that way for 10 years.

Exactly. The markets are moving so fast and those people that are coming in with little to no experience or from a completely different industry, they actually have the advantage.

In some ways, yes. You know, in some ways, you know, I think marketing is going through a similar birth pain in that, you know, technology, of course, is, is, you know, affecting it. But, but I think what, I think what's happening with marketing is very similar to what has happened to other industries in the past where, you know, technology affects change and they don't really know what it is they're good at. And so, you know, they've got this business model that's been working and making them money. And then all of a sudden the ground shifts and they don't really understand what it is that's really valuable that they do. They just focus on the technology and it's like the sky is falling and in some ways it is, but You know, it's not the death of the industry. It's a change and it's going to be a permanent change. But as long as you understand the value that you bring to your customer or client and you provide a solution to that, that makes economic sense, like, you know, if I provide this solution, you pay me this, I'm happy, you're happy. The sky's the limit because I just, I guess what I'm saying is I think the technology is highlighting the problem in the industry, not, and in some ways forcing them to fix their problems than it is to just change.

I think it's a, that's a great way to see who's going to adapt.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I mean, there's, there's ways, like, there's always going to be people who don't want to jump into the AI pool. There's going to be people who want that, and the marketers who grab onto those people, that's great, right? But otherwise, you're going to want to like adapt, but adapt in different way rather than going into that whole modern, like just AI look, which I see, you know, you're on LinkedIn as well, like just the feed there.

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Trash.

Trash. Or the other phrase that I've adopted is crackhead. It is crackhead energy. So you said badassery is fundamentally about doing things exceptionally, and that you intentionally don't do what others are doing. Give us an example of that.

So I'll take one of the examples of a client that I've worked with recently. They— what I saw firstly was that they blended in with the others in their industry. You know, they were all approaching client at the same time, but the thing is, the, the time that they're being approached is— so this is a hard architectural hardware company, so door handles, cabinet knobs, etc., right?

And exciting stuff.

Sorry.

Exciting stuff.

It's very, it's very pretty, at least. So the time that they were being approached by customers was only when the houses were built by the, the builder. So it was builder-grade doors. There was no flexibility. So like, you know, say for example, somebody, one, one of their customers, they sourced beautiful entryway on Instagram or something like that, they're like, yeah, I want, I want this. But finally, if the, the builder-grade door is there and they're like, uh, actually, unless you knock that entire wall down, we can't do that anymore. So it was like taking that back to the drawing board and being like, okay, but where, what does the whole process look like? Where If, say for example, it's a perfect world, what will be the best time to approach or to come into the picture so that that doesn't happen? Yes. Right? And we worked backwards to the point where it's like, hey, this is when the designer is drawing up the building, the walls, etc., like that. The entryways. This is the perfect time. I was like, okay, so if that's the perfect time, how do we make this architectural, uh, hardware relevant to them? Why should they care? And finally, after much discussion and seeing like, okay, this is, this is where their pains are, these are their desires, they want to stand out amongst other designers. It's, it's also a busy industry, so they are, they're always checking the trends, they're always checking like, how can we be the most prominent? So we reposition them as a resource for those designers, and everything that they did from in the showroom to on their website to social media video was to support being a resource to designers and being considered at that early point in the journey rather than everybody else who is like, well, you know, we're just happy when people come to us.

Well, yeah. And so, so like when, when I think brand, that what you just described is not Branding.

It's a strategy. It's a position.

Yes, yes, but it didn't approach it strictly from a marketing standpoint. It approached it from the end user's standpoint and the buyer's standpoint. And that is where I think most business owners get off track, and certainly creatives do, is they're not focusing on what the customer's problem is, right? And so then your solution is going to be incomplete or imperfect, right? So you could have created a brand, or they had a brand for the end buyer, which is great, but it was incomplete. Like now you're completely solving the problem because there's, you've eliminated the sticking point of the design not matching the result.

Exactly. That was a big thing. That's brilliant. And changing the language. Changing how the marketing put out their messaging and all that. And then what they mentioned back to me at the end, they were like, you know, we thought we needed to completely change our business and we've been around for over 3 decades. And I'm like, right, that's, that's not what you need to do. You already have the essence is already there that just needs to be pulled out. Super clarified, super honed down, and repositioned. And everything needs to, from the how people in the showroom talk, to the sales, to the marketing, every element needs to align together.

So when you pitched, when you go back to when you were trying to get this work, uh, you were in a competition, I assume, with others.

They approached me.

They approached you? Oh, well, that's easy.

Yeah, they just showed up in my inbox and I was like, uh, okay. Yeah, they saw like what I post on LinkedIn. And that's leaning back into what you were just saying before, you know, like my approach is always to do things that push back against those social norms. To consider how I might approach like brand strategy. And he was saying like, you know, the content that I've seen from you on LinkedIn is very different in terms of its approach to others. And I'm interested to hear more about it. And so we started a discussion as to where they're at, what they've been doing, and if there is that alignment, right? Because at the end of the day, it is We're working very closely together to make sure that this goes smoothly. There needs to be that alignment.

Now I'm going to ask you the gut-wrenching question. Did you charge them enough?

Probably not enough, but no, I'm happy because at the end of the day, their, their success and what they've achieved is more important to me. And I think there will be cases in the future where Badass Reby B will go international, and that will come. It will come.

Do you think— let me rephrase the question— do you think that you could have charged them more? Would they have paid more?

If they're listening, they're like, "B, yes, I probably could have charged more." Yeah.

Why do you think that?

Um, just the amount of work and them always saying like, you know, "B, you're putting in a lot of time and everything into this," and they were surprised.

No, that's not why they would pay you more.

Okay.

They don't care how much you're worth.

So what do you think?

Why do you think they would pay you more?

That's what I would think. So in that case, I'm—

Right. Right. But when it comes to aligning that solution to problem and understanding the economic value of it, that drives, that should drive our pricing.

Right? You're right.

And so the answer there is they would have paid you more because you delivered more dollars to them, right? And I have a whole section on pricing in the book, and, you know, it talks about value pricing and, you know, flipping the script from time you worked, cost, etc., how hard, whatever, your skill set, throwing all of those things out and looking at the, the value of what you delivered. And there's only one person that can define that value, and that's the customer. They're the only ones that can say whether you— what you did was worth it or not. But because we don't take the time to truly understand the value of what we do to the customer, we oftentimes leave money on the table.

Yeah.

And, and it, it also reinforces this false belief that the better we are or the harder we work, the more money we'll make. That is not always true. Sometimes it's true, but it's not always true. And so we reinforce that belief. And so then you get trapped in, well, I just need to work harder or I just need to acquire more skills. But that's not the ultimate. And those things may be true, but that's not what ultimately determines the price and the value. Thoughts on that?

I just dropped some bombs on you. Oh no, you're 1000% right. I've heard that as well in previous— I don't know where exactly, but I've heard it before. And this is a good reminder, to be honest. It's a good freaking reminder.

Well, I tell in the book the story of our journey with that, and I'll recap it for you briefly. There was a book written by an Australian lawyer Called Firm of the Future. And that book's probably 25 years, 30 years old now. But he talked about a lot, a lot about pricing in there and value pricing. And so I went to my brother, who was my partner at the time, and I said, I want to try this out. And one of the, one of the ways you can do value pricing is 100% tip, which means you don't determine the price, the customer does or the client does. And it's when you're done with the work. Now, there are a lot of caveats in here. I'm not saying that's the way you should price. It's, you know, learn about it before you implement it. But in our case, I said, I want to try this out. So we were doing consulting on the sale of one of our clients. And we helped them with the tax strategy behind it. And, uh, the business sold, and we sent them an invoice, uh, of zero, and explained, you know, this is the value that we think we brought to the table, you decide what to pay us. And they wrote us like a $10,000 check. And I asked my brother How much time did you have in that project? And he goes, I don't know, maybe 5 hours. I'm like, if you had been in your wildest dreams charged them an hourly rate on that, what would you have charged? And he said, I don't know, maybe $500 an hour. I said, so you would have billed them $2,500. He said, yeah. And you would have thought you got a good deal. Yeah. But you would have left $7,500 on the table. Yeah. And it was very eye-opening. I mean, like, it— and I'm not, I'm not really, uh, pushing this 100% tip. It's just the concept. It just is a good illustration. Of, uh, in its purest sense where the customer determines the value. Um, so that, that was our journey. That was a beginning of our journey.

That's amazing. And yeah, I've heard about that. Yes, it was Chris, Chris Doe. I've listened to a few of his, um, podcast episodes and he talks about similar sort of, um, strategies. Obviously there is different ways, different approaches, including this one where it's like, hey, you know, pay what you feel like it's, it's worth. And I do think that it really also depends on how, how long that project goes.

And sure, with— and you're as the provider taking all the risk, right? And so it's really on a continuum. If you're taking all the risk, you should get all the reward. But there are ways to mitigate that risk. And, but it to me is just illustrative of the concept.

So, yeah, I agree.

What, what are some of the financial struggles as a new business owner that you have encountered? I mean that in the broadest sense of the term. I think I made so much money I had to pay an absorbent amount of tax. That could have been my real quick struggle.

I think it's the time. Um, it's, it's a long time and a long struggle to just really get to that first one and then that second one and then like for it to build up to the point where you're not for me, like using savings, for example, because I knew that starting this— and I had plenty of people again being like, okay, you know, B, just get a full-time job and then you can do this on the side. And I was like, if I have a full-time job, I will put all my focus on that. I will not be able to do this.

Burn the ships and go do it.

So I would say the biggest struggle is the time. It's being in that uncomfortable— To get to profitability? Sorry?

The time it took to get to profitability or what do you mean?

To get to it, yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you where a lot of people exasperate that problem is they don't have a clear idea of that customer value proposition, who they're actually targeting, who they should be working with. And so they take whoever because there's that, I want to get to that profitability quicker, but then that just makes it worse.

Yeah, I didn't have that. I've always been very strict in terms of who I don't want to work with in terms of, you know, I'll have a conversation in advance and we'll talk about, you know, where they're at, what's their situation, etc. And if there isn't a fit, like, I will say it outright. Even it doesn't matter how bad I'm screaming on the inside going, oh shit, but you need this. And I'm like, nope, just nope, this is not going to end well.

It's that crackhead energy, right? It's just the same thing. It's like, I've got it, I've got to have it. No, you don't.

You're right. So I think that's what's made it kind of more of a struggle because like there'll be cases where I'm just like, you could have just taken that. And I'm like, no, don't do it.

Well, I'm proud of you for sticking to your guns because that will pay off in spades. As you go down the road. I mean, 100%, because you're not going to have to worry like we did of getting rid of a bunch of clients that we shouldn't have had in the first place.

I— yeah, you, you have me right there, because the people that I have worked with are some of the most amazing, truly, truly amazing people, and the energy that they bring to it, I'm so freaking honored to have worked with them.

Beatrice, how do people find out more about Badassery by B and what you do?

There's 3 ways. First is LinkedIn on Beatrice Goodconnect.

And it's Goodconnect. Yeah, it's Goodconnect.

I imagine it'll be on the show notes where you can be like, I don't have to figure out how to spell her name. Yay, that's correct. Number 2, if you like the breakdowns in terms of strategies, tactics, and breakdowns of how to implement in each department, I have a newsletter that goes out every Friday called the Badass Mob, and that you can access from badasserybybee.com. And lastly is The Art of Branding Podcast if you're more of an audio person.

Yes, your podcast.

Which is currently on hiatus, but I'm looking forward to Season 3, which might be an interesting few guests.

I am always an interesting guest. Listeners, we'll have those notes, those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please share the podcast, rate the podcast. Subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you want to hear, and we'll get rid of Beatrice. Until then, TTFN.

Ta-ta!