Brand Before You Scale | Rob Genovesi

She goes, I don't know what you're doing, but just keep doing it. You'll have no interference from me. And then 2 years later, they fired me. So I was like, okay, it was economics driven, but the decision was, um, political and legal.

Mm-hmm.

So like you said, you know what made me, I just had it. I was like, man, I gave it the best I had and more, and I still got screwed. So I was like, You know what? I'm starting my own thing. I went home, told my wife I got laid off. I said, today I start a business I will retire from. And that was the website and design business. But that wasn't the start of Success. That's not even what I do today. Because, you know, as you talk about, profit was the thing I was after and I wasn't being profitable in that business.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion Into Profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Laplace, Louisiana. I'm sure I'm not pronouncing that correctly. It looks like French for the place, but I could be wrong. In any case, thank you for listening. Joining me today, Rob Genovese of Build Strong Brands. Rob, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Christian. It's great to be here.

Rob, I start out usually asking, you know, like, how did you get here? So I'll lead with that. How did you end up being an entrepreneur, Build Strong Brands author? You didn't just land there. What was the origin story?

I wish I could have just landed there. It would have made things a lot more easier, but not as much fun, I'll tell you that. So as we were talking earlier, I spent 25+ years in corporate managing creative teams. I've got a simple degree in graphic design and advertising. And for years, I really wanted one day to own my own business but didn't have any skills to speak of. I mean, I was paralyzed with fear of speaking or putting myself out there or putting myself in any situation where the focus was on me well into my 30s. It was, it was, I should have had therapy, but I didn't. I self-therapized through about 500 books, several hundred seminars, webinars, uh, you know, vid downloads, videos, you name it. Um, until I get to a point where I kind of kick those fears aside. But, um, you know, I left corporate in 2015 after my second layoff because even though I was a high performer in my later years in corporate, it was just went without any kind of rewards. So, you know, I got laid off, not due to performance, it was always due to economics or politics or legalities or one combination of those or another. So I had to get out and I finally, I left in 2015 and I leveraged the one skill I had, graphic design. And I thought, you know, what am I gonna do? Well, everybody needs a website. I'll build websites, you know, along with a trillion other people. Right. I opened a website and design shop.

Yeah, yeah, it was common back then. Okay, so let me ask you a question. What was different about your mindset at that point? So like you said, it was your second layoff, so you'd experienced a layoff before. You had this desire coupled with a fear. What was different in 2015 that you made that transition to, being an entrepreneur?

Well, you know, like I said, I had done so much self-improvement that, you know, after a certain period of time, you've gotta— you get to a point where you're sick and tired. And that second layoff, I mean, the scenario was I— they created a position for me inside a company because the creative department was in shambles. I mean, they were two weeks late on all artwork. Strained relations throughout the entire company with— it was a sign and display company— strained relations through printing and engineering and sales. And, um, even the creative director, if you could imagine this, the creative director basically left the creative department, went off on his own cuz he couldn't take the couple of people that were there who were wrecking the whole thing. So he's just like, I'm outta here. So he goes to a one-man show, forms his own department. Leadership is like, sure, why not? If you can imagine, and they created a position for me to come in and fix it. And after 6 months, you know, by the way, 5 weeks in, the 2 people I had went out on medical leave, so I was alone in a brand new company. Fix this. And with just a freelancer, and 6 months later, we were 2 days ahead on schedule. There were zero errors on artwork. I restored all the relations with engineering, sales, and printing. And everybody was happy. The VP was like, oh, whatever you're doing, keep doing it. Right. Even the guy Dave who left, Dave never works with anybody, but he said, whatever you need, you got. She goes, I don't know what you're doing, but just keep doing it. You'll have no interference from me. And then 2 years later they fired me. So I was like, okay, it was economics driven, but the decision was, um, political and legal. Mm-hmm. So like you said, you know what made me, I just had it. I was like, man, I gave it the best I had and more and I still got screwed. So I was like, you know what? I'm starting my own thing. I went home, told my wife I got laid off. I said, today I start a business I will retire from. And that was the website and design business. But that wasn't start of success. That's not even what I do today because, you know, as, as you talk about profit was the thing I was after and I wasn't being profitable in that business.

Well, congratulations for making that decision. Um, I, you know, I, I think a lot of people are in that situation where they're, they're strongly dissatisfied with the being an employee. They understand that they're limited in their talents, their capacity their profitability, like their ability to make money. But there is that fear, uh, of— and it's a legitimate fear. I mean, I, I, I actually respect that more now than I used to, as opposed to the person that just says, well, I'm going to start a business, and they really have no idea what's on the other side of that, right? They don't know what they don't know. Which was my case when I started my business at 27. I'm like, "Sure, let's do it," not really knowing what I did not know. So you make a decision to leverage the skills that you have, but 10 years later, now 11 years later, what has changed?

Yeah, so that, that's the whole thing. You know, I started out as a website and design company and I got clients right away. Getting clients was not the problem, right? Because like I said, my thought process is right. Everybody needs a website or needs an updated website. Mm-hmm. So getting clients was easy. Being profitable was the hard part. And I was, Christian, like you said, starting a business, it's a big decision, I guess for some people, you know, it's, there's a lot to figure out. Mm-hmm. And I was after profitability because maybe where most people who were my age at the time, so I was 48 with 2 kids in college and 2 more right behind them, you know, I'm gonna start a business. Well, you know, my parents thought we were crazy. My, you know, my rel— other relatives were like, are you sure you don't wanna go get another job? Right. And, and to, to be clear, after that second layoff, I did get another job. So I built the business on the side. But that struggle for profitability meant that I think I'm like, I'm 48. Not that I'm old, but like, you know, your days, you can count the years that are left instead of the years that are ahead of you. And I'm like, I don't have time to fail. I've gotta make every hour produce 2 hours of revenue in a manner of speaking. So I was big on how much time I'm putting in and how much I was making my effective hourly rate. So I needed to, I sought out profitability over clients, number of clients, higher paying clients, all that. It factors in, but maximizing profitability was huge. So in the website business, unless I wanted to become a website factory, which I had no interest in becoming a volume-based business, I wanted to make an impact. Mm-hmm. And so it came down to one conversation. You know, people talk about what's the one thing. Well, in my case it was about 50,000 things, but if there was one transformative conversation, it was this, um, this Italian contractor in New York. If there couldn't be more cliché, calls me up.

Were they in waste management maybe?

He, he actually wasn't, but he was a painting contractor. Okay. And he was like, um, you know, he starts the conversation with, look, look, uh, I, I was working with this one web guy And we just couldn't seem to see eye to eye. So, um, you know, we parted ways. I don't have a website, but I paid him $1,100 for the work he did. He goes, can you help me? And I'm like, yeah, I can help you. Now, I don't know what the problem was. My, I had two thoughts running through my mind. How am I gonna help him? Like, how do I nail this job? And the other thing is, well, what if the problem wasn't the web guy? What if the problem was the client? Mm-hmm. What if he was a nightmare client and now he was gonna be mine? So that's kind of a chance you got to take when you need the money. I needed the money at that point. So I said, I got to nail this. I need this job because I'm sure he's talking with other people because it's very competitive business. And so I asked basic brand strategy questions that I didn't know was brand strategy because it was he who, in the course of talking to me, said, I'm starting this out and there's a lot of big guys around here and I need like a brand or something to help me stand out and all that. And he threw it in there. My subconscious caught it. And so I thought, what am I gonna do? So I set up an interview with them and I just asked them basic questions like, you know, what's, what's your mission? What's driving you? You know, what's your vision for this company you're starting? You know, what, what is, um, who's your competition? You know, what, what makes you different? Why should they choose you? And all these basic, basic things, which, you know, today it's vastly improved on what I did back then. But, um, I took the information from the interview and I go back to my office and I start, you know, kind of distilling all that data into a strategy. And as a designer, of course, like I woke up at 3:00 AM, I remember, and I'm like, oh, I got an idea for a logo. And I just sketched it on my iPad. And I looked at it the next morning. I'm like, this is the logo. I designed one. And he didn't ask me to, but I did. So I designed, you know, a mockup of the website. I wrote the marketing copy, you know, the hooks and everything. And I presented to him. And if you know any Italian guys, Christian, he sits there with his hand on his chin and he's rocking back and forth in his chair. And if you know any Italian, you know this is one of two things. He's either going to kiss you or he's going to smack you. Yes.

And high emotion. This is high emotion there.

High emotion. And I'm Italian guy, so I know one of them is coming. So he rocks back and forth what seemed like 15 minutes. It was probably only 15 seconds. And he points his finger at me and goes, you absolutely nailed it. It's like you were in my head. How did you do that? And at that moment, I was like, it worked. Now, to be clear, he loved it. He bought it all, but I didn't know if it actually produced business. That remained to be seen. But he called me a year later. He's like, hey, Rob, what's going on? Just checking in. I go, hey, Lou, how you doing? How's business? He goes, man, I'm busy 7 days a week. Never been better. And he wanted, as a contractor, you know, you want to be busy every day. And so I learned to remain humble and not assume that it was my quote unquote genius that did it, right? So I said, what do you owe your success to? And he goes, the brand work you did for me. That's what did it. And so at that moment in my head, I became a brand strategist, but I didn't didn't really become one outwardly. I used that strategy to win more design work, but I realized it worked so well, I thought, this is what I want to do, because that's what made the impact in businesses that I sought. I wanted to make an impact in people's personal lives through business and, and now branding. So that's what I do today.

I love that. I, I did receive your book. Actually today, so I haven't read it, but I like the title and I've got it over on my desk. Don't Fear the Brand. Is that what it— Yeah, Don't Fear the Brand.

Don't Fear the Brand.

I have some thoughts on that title without having read the book. Why did you title it that? Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Yeah, um, I've gotten some positive feedback just on the title alone, and honestly It's, it's my journey. It's the thing that made the difference in becoming not just a brand strategist, but a brand in on my own and helping people build strong brands is that the thing that holds most business people back is fear. Fear of taking a stand. We know that nobody wants wishy-washy, middle-of-the-road mediocre. Everybody wants somebody who says something that makes people go, yeah, I agree with that, I'm with you. But people are afraid to say that. Why? Because somebody's gonna be like, you're a jerk, I hate you. So yes, you gotta take the good with the bad. And so that fear, I had paralyzing fear of talking to people well into my 30s, but I knew I had to be able to speak to people in order to be a successful business person. Fear of putting myself out on the internet in video, my writings, all my work for fear that people were gonna be like, you know, you're a hack, you're a loser, you're a jerk, whatever they're gonna say. And that fear holds people back. So the, the title, Don't Fear the Brand, this isn't a brand strategy book in science only, although that's the second part. The first part is the art of building a strong brand. That's, kicking your fears aside and doing the things that are necessary so that you can actually build a strong brand, so that you actually can build one that will— you can leverage against building your business. Because we know that a strong brand over time will build the business. It will be a lever to build it bigger than you could without it. So that's, that's where the name came from. Don't fear the brand. The brand is the fear. Is you're afraid of you. You're afraid of being you. Because I was in my corporate days, you know, before I discovered brand strategy, my first company, you know, if you saw my first company, it was corporate mainstream. I was button-down shirt, uh, leather belt, shoes to match, slacks, clean shaven, you know, horn-rimmed glasses, and my hair was just perfect. And I'm not that person. And it took me kicking the fear aside and going, that's not who I am. I don't want to be that. That was the corporate mask that I discovered I was wearing. When I ripped it off and I discovered who I am, I was like, I don't know if people are going to like this. And you know what? Some people don't. But I don't really care because a lot of people go, look, this is the day and age, Christian. We know one thing's for sure. If you're not real in the age of AI, If you're not real, you will be found out.

Yes, it— what your, your story reminds me, my, my younger daughter is a figurative oil painter, and, uh, she left university and has made a career out of that. And one of her earliest successes, uh, she had— I think it was TikTok that blew up with one of her paintings. And I mean, it was truly viral. And she was shocked, did not expect it. And she was like, "I'm getting a lot of mixed feedback." She was getting a lot of sales from it, but the piece that she had put out there was controversial. Like, I could see where it would be offensive, right? And so a lot of the comments were, you know, ugly. And I said, well, you know, you, you, you have to make a decision. Either you're going to take all of the feedback or none of the feedback. You, you can't have it both ways where you, you put yourself out there and then only accept positive feedback. Because to your point, you know, the reality is not everybody's gonna like you, and that's totally fine. But you have to have a certain level of maturity to be okay with that, to like to say like, I'm comfortable with who I am. And if you don't like it, that's fine. Like, I'm not trying to be offensive to you, but I'm not gonna change who I am to make you more comfortable. Right. Um, when I, I saw the COVID of that book, I was thinking from the business owner standpoint. And, um, I for a long time thought branding was something for big companies. I, I thought that that was the Coca-Colas. And like, it was, it was, it was— it's interesting. I saw it in the same vein, the same way I saw culture. I thought, well, you know, that's for Googles. You know, we don't have a culture in our company. But what I came to realize, both culture and brand exist whether you are intentional about it or not. Your brand as a business owner is— it exists because I think of it in terms of brand is just what people remember about you. The company. And, and, and so you can either be intentional about it or you can just let it happen. But what you— that exercise that you took, uh, Lou through was, uh, I think, I, I think probably more powerful than the, the work product you gave him, because in asking those questions he had to clarify what he was about. Like, what— who is Lou? What is his business? How is it different? What, you know, like, because a lot of business owners go through their, their, their life without being intentional about that. And they may have success, they may not. But until they can answer those questions about like, okay, who do I work for? Who do I not work for? You can't really progress beyond a certain point because you have to be able to weed out the people that you don't wanna work with just as much as you wanna attract the people that you do wanna work with, right? So going back to your initial thing, like you didn't know if Lou was someone you wanted to work with, you just needed the work, right? Right. Now, if Lou came to you, you probably could very easily determine, yeah, this is someone I want to work with who I can help, Or, you know, they need to find somebody else.

Well, you know, I think that one of the things that allowed me to create huge profitability— now, I'm not going to sit here and be like, you know, I'm a multimillion-dollar operation, all that. That's for other people. That's not me. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is if you're a small business, you're a solopreneur, maybe you don't want to build a $10 million company. That's fine. I don't really care to. I want to be profitable, right? Profitability is king. You know, you could have, you, you know, $10 million in annual revenue and $11 million in expenses. Like, what does that make you? So the profitability part was the part I was, I was in hot pursuit, Christian. I was in hot pursuit. And I think that's what made me, um, particular— not, I'm not a great business person. I'm an excellent brander. I'm a pretty good business person. But if I did anything right, it was discovering the time factor. And I don't think people put time in the same circle with money and its understanding of the relationship. Because I was busy, I was working. I mean, I was going to my job when I had the job and away from my home for 11 hours a day. I would be up till 1:00 AM designing and building websites every Saturday morning till midnight. You know, with, with breaks for dinner and, and family time and Sundays as well, which I'm not a big fan of. You know, I believe rest is for Sunday. Sunday is for rest. And so in doing that, I realized I was making $20 an hour, like making thousands of dollars a month, but $20 an hour. I'm like, what the heck is happening here? Mm-hmm. And so part of it was number one, finding the profitable business. So I found that through Brand Strategy. Profitability is absolutely amazing to sell. The intellectual part, not the commodity of the deliverable. The other part of that was what you said. How do you find the clients that are the right fit? This is vastly underrated because people, and here's what, again, here's what drives it. Fear. If I don't take this client, I may not have a client to serve. Mm-hmm. Okay. So it's a legit argument, but that's why you build a strong brand so you've got people constantly coming to you wanting your time so that you can turn down the people who— look, you get good at knowing who's going to waste your time, you know, and people who waste your time will devalue your time and make your, your effective hourly rate plummet. So I was like, how am I going to find out? How am I going to figure out how do I best vet this potential client? And maybe say no. Or look, if I'm not that busy, maybe I'll just jack up my price. So if they pay it gladly, at least I'll be compensated for, you know, my pain in the butt time.

Yes, I think what you said is good wisdom there, that it's time and money because they are connected on some level for most entrepreneurs. I think that you can end up with financial freedom but no time freedom. Yeah. And, you know, what's great about having time freedom if you don't have any money to spend, right? Like, so they're joined together. It is important to consider both because you need both. To really be— to have a business that's working for you, right? Um, the, the worst case scenario, like you said, is, is that you end up with, uh, neither— you neither time freedom nor financial freedom. Like, that's, that's the worst case. But you absolutely can get there, uh, very quickly. That's one of the risks of, of having a business versus working for someone else, is that you can put yourself in a hole. And that you couldn't get into as an employee, right? 'Cause they're always gonna send you a paycheck and you can only work so much time. So, you know, but your situation and other entrepreneurs, you said a $10 million business and $11 million in expenses. That's real. Like people end up in a situation where they are losing money and I think that, uh, I, I, I think as a, as a business owner, I don't define things— I don't define what you're describing as brand, right? I, I do now, but I, I've, I've, I didn't for a long time. And I, I think that if, if someone approached me about like, we, we want to work with you on your brand and your brand strategy, I'd be like, Yeah, I don't have that problem. All right. Right. But I did. Right. But I didn't, I didn't, I didn't phrase it that way. So my question to you is, do you have trouble lining up that, that you're a brand strategist with what their perceived need is?

Yeah. I mean, look, that's the million-dollar question when you're building a business is Um, what's the message you're putting out there? You know, what's this, the very unique solution you're providing to a very specific problem, to a very specific person? Like, that's brand differentiation. That's what makes you different. Mm-hmm. You know, we, we largely see people enter a profession that they have had the deep-seated problem, they've solved it, they've succeeded, and now what do they do? Oh, now I'm going to become that. I'm the person who was a million dollars in debt and I turned it around. Now I built a very successful business and I can show you how to do the same thing too. It's that kind of thing. And so in my struggle for profitability, in my struggle to be a graphic designer and sell design profitably, that's what I overcame through strategy. So When I said early on, when I solved Lou's problem, I didn't just go, hey, brand strategy, that's it, I'm a brand strategist. No, I kept taking clients for websites and a little bit of design, but it was really website business and I was solving their business challenge because that's the challenge I had. Mm-hmm. And so I was helping them and they were getting success. Now I turned it around on me and I'm like, okay, now I'm making more money per hour because, so, so number one, what happens? Number one, I can charge more. Mm-hmm. Because I'm solving a, a problem and I have, uh, evidence to back it up. Number 2, no scope creep. Now, I shouldn't say no scope creep, very little scope creep because when you establish, what I discovered is when you establish the strategy and the design executes on the strategy. So if I say, here's the strategy, Christian, you're like, yeah, that's it. That's, Rob, you nailed it. That's the strategy. That's what we're looking to do. Ba ba ba ba ba. And then I go, okay, I'm gonna return to you with designs that execute on the strategy. Whereas before, if I go, hey, what do you think about this? And you're like, man, I like this. I don't like that. Can you make this more blue or make the logo bigger? Can you nudge this over here until you think it's the pretty picture you imagined for your business? And how can I fight that subjectivity? The answer is I can't. That's what designers are up against, and that's what I was looking to solve. Going from I charge $50 an hour to I'm making $7.50 an hour because of scope creep. And so I would establish the strategy, get your agreement on it, and I'd be like, now I framed the design. Whatever I come up with, this design executes on the strategy that we agreed on. Now when you look at it, and this was what I was finding, clients were going, yeah, yeah, that's it. So I made the connection for them. I, I virtually eliminated scope creep. I was selling strategy first. Then design. That was my mantra. And so the ability to be able to do that is now what I'm selling to a lot of people is that, look, you can be profitable. I look, again, I'm not saying I'm gonna make your 6-figure business a 7-figure business necessarily. I can, but that's not what I'm selling. What I'm saying is this, if you're a small business owner and you're struggling for profitability, I 4x my revenue in just a couple of months by changing a few things and not increasing my time. Mm-hmm. And that's the thing, that's the problem I'm solving is people who own small businesses don't necessarily want a big business, they just want a profitable one.

Hey creatives, Delaina Ely here. I have a question for you. If you could pay yourself more, why aren't you doing it for real? S Corp is an option for you, the creative entrepreneur, to move your business to the next level, to pay yourself more, and to cut your tax savings down. Yeah, less money to the IRS. We want that, right? So why haven't you done it yet? What's going on? The reality is you probably have 50,000 questions in your brain. You don't know which way is up and down, and you're still too busy to do all those things plus also create, right? Well, the good thing for you is is that Core Group is actually the place to be to get that S-corp election rolling. Yeah, we have an assessment. Let's see if you qualify. Come chat with me. Core Group, turning passion into profit.

I love that. I— it, it reminds me of a conversation I had this, uh, this is today's Monday, so it was last week, uh, with a, um, creative that he does, uh, podcasts. He does the, the, the technical backend stuff, the production stuff, but his, his primary value is the promotion of the podcasts, right? And he'd had success working directly with business owners. And then his, uh, previous employer was an agency, and they came to them and said, we want you to white label the— we your service to our clients. And I said, okay, do you understand how those are two different problems you're solving? And he just paused. And I said, well, think about it this way. In your mind, it's the same thing because you're doing the same things, right? The deliverables feel the same because you're doing the same things, but you're solving two distinct problems for two very different people. One's an account executive at a marketing agency, right? The other is the business owner themselves. And so I'm not saying you can't do both, but I think you need to be very, very clear and very aware that they are two distinct problems, right? And, and I think that's what you're, you're describing as well, is— and I, I preach on this show often that your job as an entrepreneur is to solve problems. It is not your skill set as a designer or a videographer or a marketer. That's, that's not what an entrepreneur does. An entrepreneur solves problems. And being very clear on the problem that you do solve and the value of the solution that you provide, that's, that's what being an entrepreneur is about. And I think branding is critical in that because in answering those questions, you develop a brand.

Yeah. Well, you know, out of the— I've seen a lot of pushback on this, and a lot of people have different perspectives on niching down. And I've heard people say, you know, you don't niche down because you want to be able to broad stroke it and attract several different people because that's where you find, you know, that's where you find the quality and the amount of people you can serve, or you find your way. I don't understand it, and that's why I can't explain it, because here's what I believe. You niche down because here's the thing, especially where I am in the New York tri-state area. The competition is fierce, man. I mean, you can just swing your arms and hit 10 different people who do what you do easily. So how do you find the person to work with? Well, if my pain is, like I said, if I'm sitting there and I'm a graphic designer and I'm like, man, you know, I'm getting these clients and I just, I just, it's between the scope creep and them being a pain. And it's almost, it's too much stress. I'm not making enough money. Let me go get a job and although it won't make me happy, at least I'll have steady income. And now the dream is dead. But if I go, hey, listen, what I do is I help graphic designers and creatives become more profitable while decreasing the amount of time you put in, giving you the ability to own your own thing and call your own shots and have some semblance of freedom. That's the problem I solve. Would you be interested in that? Well, now that's very specific, right? I'm helping designers. I'm talking about small businesses. I'm talking about profitability. I can help you do— well, that's a small segment of people. And so people go, well, now you just eliminated mid-sized businesses, large businesses, like, you know, like all this kind of stuff. And I say, here's the thing. How many designers are out there that what I just said, they're like, man, I would love that. How many? Millions. Right? All I need is, is a few hundred to actually be a happy guy. And so if they hear that, they're like, he can help me. I'm calling him. Why? Because I have the precise solution for your precise pain and situation. And what happens is, here's, here's what I call it. It's niching down to broaden out. You niche down and then anybody outside of that niche, because now I become the go-to expert for helping graphic designers become more profitable in their freelance business. Right? Then somebody else comes to me, they're like, I got a mid-size business and I, I hear you doing this branding thing. Do you think you could help me? Why, yes I can. So you start getting these people that are witnessing you become the expert in your branding industry now saying, can you help me? And now I say, yes I can. And I actually start to get the broaden out part if I want it. And now I can do private one-on-one brand strategy, which is a high-ticket item to mid-size companies that really have the budget for that. So you still get that business, but you gotta be known for one thing first before you can be known for other things.

Yeah, I, and I, I would agree with you that, um, niching is the way to growth and profitability, but I don't think it's what most people— niching is not what most people think it is. So I, I think, and this is the way I thought for a long time, I thought that it was, uh, defining the target market in limiting terms. So it might be size of business, it might be geography, it might be industry, right? And, and so, you know, most business owners have approached niching from that lens, as opposed to, no, you niche around the problem. That's, that's how you niche. You say, as a, as a designer, I'm not working with anything but this problem, which is brand strategy. And then, and then that becomes your filter. Um, so yeah, I think we're saying the same thing. I, I think for, for if you approach niching with that mindset of, okay, this, this, these demographics, right? That's how marketers have traditionally done it. It is limiting, but you're— and, and yeah, you might have more success if you limit that way, but you really haven't done anything to open up the upside. You, you, you— the way you open up the upside is you solve the problem.

Yeah, so, you know, I mean, you Bring up a great point. So if I say niching in a room full of various business owners, they'll think that too. Niching or the client, the specific client you serve. And you're right, that is one part of it. Then there's the specific problem which you're talking about.

Yes.

There's also your very specific solution. Yes. So when people come to me and they're like, like I had a guy one time in networking a few years back, so financial guy. Now I'm a brand strategist. That's what I'm known for. I'm not known for anything else. I never talk about anything else. Now I have these other skills, but I do not talk about them because I wanna be known for the one thing. Mm-hmm. If people say, have you heard of Rob Genovese? Yeah, the branding guy. That's what I want. So a few years back, that's my world, right? Mm-hmm. This guy's financial guy comes to me and he goes, hey, you know what? I, I need you to, um, you know, take your, your branding wisdom and I need help with my messaging. So what I wanna do is I'm gonna send you all these documents and I need you to rewrite them. So that they sound more like my company than anything else. And I'm like, I'm like, that's not what I do. He goes, yeah, yeah, no, no, I'll pay you. I'll pay you well. Um, but you'll be my guy for this and, and I just need you to do that. Like, I'll tell you exactly what to do and you do it. And I'm going, that's not what I do. Right. So here's the danger. If you're a business owner, now I can write, right? What I wrote a book, so it all tends to purpose that I'm an author. Um, I'm a speaker. I can speak. So you can hire me to speak to your team. I'm a graphic designer. You can hire me. I can build your website. I can do all this. I don't. Right. Why? Because I know the one thing I sell, and that's all I sell. Because then I know how much time it takes. I'm the expert on it. It's my strength. It's what I want to be known for so that my name can easily be passed along to somebody else who has the same pain.. And that way I don't have to keep reinventing a process for a different kind of problem. And that's what that guy was trying to get me to do. He was just saying, now, now kudos, I guess, to my brand because he was like, I want you to do it. Like he could have hired anybody, right? But I'm like, no, I don't because that's not what I do. You niche your solution.

Yes. And, and I think for most business owners, that's the common problem. It was certainly our problem. For a long time is the business owner approaches it from their skill set. These are the things that I know how to do. Therefore, these are the things that I'm going to provide. But that— you run into all kinds of problems with that. For us, it was what you would call scope creep, where we topped out as a company because we were trying to do too many things for too many different types of people, right? And we intentionally had to shrink, which as an entrepreneur is probably the worst thing that you can do, is to say, I'm going to intentionally get smaller. But I realized that in order for us to go past that point, we had to have more focus and we could only do certain things and do them well And that forces you to say, well, okay, it's not about my skills. Yeah, you can do it, but that's not what your paradigm is. The paradigm is what problem am I solving?

Yeah. And that speaks to another thing that I've been talking about lately. Some people— I saw this LinkedIn post last week and it was a very respected brand strategist who was basically— and maybe it was just a hook for his post, but he was saying mission value. Mission and vision and values. If you hear a brand guy talk about all that, it's a bunch of crap. And, and I knew he was just hooking people in. He had a point that he was making. But the problem with that kind of thinking is people go, yeah, I knew. If you're a business owner, you're like, yeah, I knew it. I don't need all that stuff. And here's the reality of things like mission and vision. What you just talked about and where a lot of businesses I see head into trouble is they acquire skills, they acquire clients that are outside of their niche and they start to get bigger, right? And what you're essentially doing is you're starting several companies. Oh yeah, we can do your video too, even though we're a copywriting agency. So now, right, if you didn't want an agency that's full service, now you got one. And if you don't want it, you got trouble because you're, you're fighting against the very thing that you didn't want. So when I started my company, you know, I got clients right away, but I established a vision for what I want the company— this is part of brand strategy. I established a vision for what I wanted to be. Now, this is no shade on anybody. I didn't want an agency. I didn't want the overhead of, of office space. I didn't want employees. I want a portable company. So when my wife and I go to Miami or the Keys or Nashville or wherever, I can take my business with me. Mm-hmm. That was 11 years ago, just about. And so that's the kind of thing that allowed me a very precise direction so that I can build my brand, know what I'm building for, keep the message focused so that I can keep that, that reinforcement of the message that builds on itself over time so that I become the go-to person. You become the go-to person in your industry because you're not saying, yeah, well, we do that. Well, we do that, we do that, and you didn't even want it. So the mission is your purpose that drives you. Your vision is for what you want the company to be. So mission and vision. The values is how you operate. All these things, they're not necessarily brand in terms of what people think it is, right? They're more in line with your business. But that being part of brand strategy informs the rest of it so that you can build the business you do want, that you are good at, that you can be profitable at, that you enjoy having. And those are the things that go into it for very specific reasons. Like cogs in a machine. They all have to work together to make the whole thing work.

Yes, I think what you're, what you're saying is spot on. I think to me, whether— well, I think it all starts with intentionality. Right. And I think the first intention you need to have, regardless of where you are on the entrepreneurial journey, is are you creating a business that serves your needs? Are you creating a business that gives you the financial flexibility and the time flexibility that serves you, as opposed to building something and it becomes the proverbial tail wagging the dog and you end up working more for less pay and it's sucking the life out of you? It starts with your intentionality, and that is being intentional about what do you want? And, you know, that's the whole Profit First mantra, is being intentional about you're going to make a profit. That's not optional. And, and what that requires you to do is to say no to other things. And, um, I, I think, I think it, it plays back into what you described as in your book, is overcoming that fear of having your own intention. Like, I— yes, I can do what I want, I can build what I want, I can do it the way I want, as opposed to what somebody else said that it had to be.

Yeah. I mean, intention was something I did have to figure out at a certain point because I learned a lot in networking, and I was networking very heavily for a bunch of years and talking with a lot of people. What I was actually doing was I was building my brand. I wasn't necessarily looking to get clients, which sounds really weird. I was looking to attract more ideal clients. So it was kind of a big experiment I had, but I learned a lot from business owners who I would ask them, you know, so what, what, why are you networking? What are you getting out of this? Or, or why are you doing that for marketing? And they'd be like, well, you know, we're still, you know, we're figuring that part out. And, and they never really knew why they were doing what they were doing. They were just doing what they saw others do.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. So, yes, the part about entrepreneurship, business ownership, is that if you're not intentional behind what you're doing, then you really don't know why you're doing what you're doing or what you really want. And I was— when I was in networking, I couldn't understand why people weren't getting business. I was getting business. Like, I, I started networking July— until the third week of July in 2019, after I left corporate. I had clients within 4 months from networking, specifically from that organization, specifically where other people like a year or two, they're like, I don't get any clients. And I'm like, how are you not getting clients? And I realized they didn't know what they were doing in networking. They were just saying, hey, I'm Rob. Nice to meet you, Christian. Sure. Hey, let's chat again sometime. And I was like, don't you have a strategy for that? So the intentionality behind everything we do is critical. I mean, and if we talk about marketing, so here, here's where branding and marketing, people go, isn't branding marketing? Isn't marketing branding? No. It's not brand strategy is what you develop. So you develop the brand, then you amplify that brand through your marketing channels. Mm-hmm. And so for instance, networking is a marketing strategy. Most people don't look at it that way. They don't know why they're showing up every week to their meeting, right? Or wherever they're going, they're just showing up, right? Shake some hands, pass some business cards, whatever they do, they don't know what to get out of it, so it doesn't work for them. Them and they go, ah, networking doesn't work. And then there's the guy who's like, yeah, but if you, if you optimize your funnel, man, funnels, you optimize your funnel, man, you can make, you know, 5, 6 figures a month if you want, you know? And then some people go, I have a funnel, it doesn't work. And there's another guy's like, your email marketing, your email list is gold. And if you email, you can make— and a person goes, why send out emails? I don't, I don't make anything. It doesn't work. So why are you doing it? Because there's 1,000 ways to become successful in business. But if you don't intentionally choose your channel, understand what your end goal is, you know, fail your way there. Take action. What works? What doesn't work? Change it. Just tweak it. But stop with all the other stuff in a focused path. That intentionality is what could bring people success. Brand magnifies the return. So if you look at it this way, if a business, same business, same size, same revenue, same whatever, one has a strong brand, the other has no brand. The one without a brand has to spend more dollars in Facebook ads, has to spend more dollars in LinkedIn posting, has to spend more dollars in all these things to get the return. Why? Because there's nothing out there that reinforces their presence. The same business with a brand, all they gotta do is show up a lot of times and it's like, hey, I've seen you somewhere before, or I've heard about you, or haven't we met? Or can we talk? I don't know why, but you seem to get me. Like what I heard you say, you seem to understand my exact problem. So branding makes your marketing dollars go further, faster. That's why I'm such a pro— that's why I do it. Because look, what is the number one reason small businesses go out of business? Lack of capital, right? No runway. Well, I, I discovered brand strategy because I was that guy. I had no money. I actually didn't leave corporate. They asked me to leave. I knew it was coming. It was before my time. I didn't have a lot of runway, but I hit the ground running. With a brand and I got profitable business faster so that it didn't crash and burn inside a year or two. And, and that's kind of the thing we're talking about, that intentionality you're talking about, Christian, it is so crucial that if people actually understood and didn't have the fear of trusting their gut about how to move forward, they would be more successful.

Yeah, I, I heard it described by a small business consultant, uh, speaking to a group of videographers specifically. And she, she was saying, you, you need to be known for something. It's like, uh, I— you want to be that guy. She was a woman, but she said, you know, that guy of like, when someone says, man, I'm not— I, I need X, whatever that is, they instantly Oh, well, you need to talk to Rob because that— Rob's the guy that fixes that problem, right? And that's, that's exactly what— I mean, that's what brand is, boiling it down, is that people, people remember you associated with fixing that problem.

Well, here's the other part of branding that solved the big problem that every— most everybody has, and that's selling, right? People are repulsed by the word. If you're— especially if you're a creative, like You love the art, you love doing the making, the selling. I, I don't really wanna do that, but you have to if you don't wanna starve. So the selling part, I was the same way. I'm the guy who couldn't speak to people. So sell. So if you're thinking you gotta sell to somebody, that means you gotta get them to buy your thing. Now, to get somebody to buy your thing, that's, that's pretty tough to do, especially in this day and age. But think about it this way, if you don't have to sell, then you're good to go. So what do I mean by that? What brand did for me and does for so many others is this, people buy when they're ready to, when they make a decision. Mm-hmm. Okay. So when do they make a decision? It's not in front of you and it's not after your pitch necessarily. People make a decision by after they've got this pain for so long They're like, I gotta do something about this, right? And they go, ah, I can do something about this. It hurts. But you know, they, they muscle through, they power through, and months go by. I, I gotta become more profitable. This hurts so bad. I, I, I need to become more profitable. I'm gonna go outta business and then we're gonna starve. I'm gonna lose my family and lose my house. At some point they go like this. They make the decision when it's 10 o'clock at night, they're laying in bed with their husband, their wife. And they're like, that's it. Tomorrow I'm calling. It's just like you said, Christian. So brand lives in your mind, lives in the audience's mind. It gets burned into their brain and sits there until the quiet moments when somebody goes, the pain's too much. I need the solution. I'm calling. Now, if your name doesn't pop up in their head, you got a weak brand. That's the magic of it. It lives there. When they're not in front of any of your marketing. They just know that, like you said, I gotta call Christian. He's the man. He's the one to solve this. And that's when they call you and then people go, wow, oh, this client just fell in my lap. Right.

No, there's no selling involved. Right. They've, they've already sold themselves.

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I get on a, a sales call with somebody, they're like, yeah, I saw you, I heard you, whatever. And it's, it's a half hour max. And what's your challenge? Why do you think you need branding? And blah, blah. I tell them my story. You know what I get 9 out of 10 times? Oh, great. What's the next step? Great. I'll send you my payment link. We'll set up a time to get going. Boom. And because they've already been sold, I don't have to sell. I just have to solve their problem now. And that's the beauty of it. Yes.

Yes. Rob, I feel like we could talk for hours. Unfortunately, we don't have hours. You said that you had an offer for the audience?

Yeah, so I do, you know, I, I just released this book in December, Don't Fear the Brand. It's, it's my first book, but the, the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. I didn't know how this was gonna hit. It, it's not your average branding book. Like I said, Don't Fear the Brand, it addresses the one thing that's holding most businesses back. I know this is big in the creative world. We're secure in our design, but we're not so secure in our ability. To, to put ourselves out there. And so for your audience, Christian, if they go to buildstrongbrands.com/freebook, all one word, they'll get a free copy of the ebook. There's also a bonus quick start brand strategy in there as well to help them get going. But this book was written not just for my own vanity, but really to get my journey out there because I know there's so many people out there who have that pain. Who think they can't do it. And they're wrong. Because if you had a video of me 15 years ago, you'd be like, you wouldn't be betting on me, that's for sure. So if they go to buildstrongbrands.com/freebook, they'll get a free copy of that book.

Thank you very much. Listeners will have that link in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message and we'll get rid of Rob. Until next time, ta-ta for now.