Branding is Deep Work| Ganesh Vancheeswaran

Hey creative, are you ready to discuss profits, the money, the ways to make it happen? The Profitable Creative Podcast is for you, the creative, how you define it. Videographers, photographers, entrepreneurs, marketing agencies, you get it. CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs, and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Park City, Utah. I've been to Salt Lake City, but not Park City. I will tell you one thing, Ganesh, when you drive across the United States, especially the western United States, you realize how big the damn thing is. I mean, Utah, you can drive forever and not see anything. Anyway, thank you for listening. My guest today, Ganesh Vanchiswaran. Vanchiswaran. Vanchiswaran. I'm sorry.

I massacred it anyway.

I practiced everything. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you, Christian. Thank you. It's a pleasure being here.

Well, I'm glad you stayed up for it. So why don't you tell the listeners what it is that you do?

I work with individuals and organizations to help them craft soulful brands and narratives.

Okay.

So, and what is that?

What does that look like? Give us an example.

I work with a person, an ambitious entrepreneur, uh, who they could be from any domain, any industry, any field, who want to grow their business. But for that, they realize that they want to grow their brand. Uh, the first step to growing their brand, any brand, is to understand what the brand is and to articulate it. So I take them through that process. I help them reflect. There's a lot of inner work involved, questions, reflective exercises involved. At the end of which we arrive at this document, a blueprint of sorts, which says, all right, from the heart, deep down, this is my understanding of my brand. This is how I articulate it. There are about a dozen fields to be articulated, and that becomes the identity of their brand. So then they know, professionally speaking, this is what I am, this is what I stand for, this is what I embody, this is the value I bring to my clients.. And it answers crucially the question, why should someone engage with you? So whether it's an organization who wants to build a product brand or a service brand, or an individual who wants to build their personal brand, the process is by and large the same. The principles are the same. And I just give you a flavor of that.

So is this something that you've been doing for a while? Like, how did you get into branding?

Yes, yes, yes. My first job was in advertising. In an advertising agency in the city called Chennai, which used to be called Madras those days in India. That was straight out of college. I think I realized it somehow. There's no, I don't know why, but I've always been attracted to self-expression, forms of self-expression. So writing, speaking, and therefore advertising falls within that spectrum. And then I had this, you know, interest, keen interest. I said, let me just give it a try. So after college, I joined the advertising agency. And then it just went from there. Yeah. I had a great time there. I learned a lot, cut my teeth, had terrible times too, made mistakes. So I think that really, I just fell in love. After that stint, first stint, I fell in love. And I said, look, brand, brand-related work, is it for me?

So how long ago did you start to work on your own?

About 7 years ago.

Okay. And what was that decision like? Like, why did you decide to go and do it for yourself as opposed to continue with the agency?

Okay. I, I can't stand too much of structure, too much of authority. I think that there's that problem. Okay. So anything that's driven top-down, anything that's, you know, people talk down to you and you're expected to do things is okay up to a point, but definitely not beyond that. So I said that's a big reason. I wanted to do things my way. The other big reason is, Christian Brim, that, you know, this thing about impact. So when you work in an organization and with organizations, there are layers, you know that, right? There's hierarchy, there are layers, there are silos, there's all of that. So one had to battle through that. And then when one finished, you know, that battle, you wouldn't really see much of an impact. Your work inevitably gets twisted, diluted. You know, there are various guardrails, there are various whatever. It felt a little too rigid for me. So I said, okay, I want to do it my way and I need to see more impact, you know, directly transferable without any layers interference. So I said, for both these reasons, let me just give it a shot. Let me do it on my own.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

It's one big—

What was that transition to entrepreneurship like? Because it sounds like you started started on your own for the reasons that most entrepreneurs start on their own.

Exactly.

Like, I can do more by myself than I can with this organization, and I see a better path forward. Like, I see how it can be done better, more impactfully. So how has that transition been? What were some of the things that surprised you? About being on your own?

Okay, so I must say that this was my second stab at entrepreneurship. My first was between 2010 and 2012. So I had some idea of what to go through. And that was, I went through a lot of shit in that first time. Yeah, got gypped by one of my partners, was extremely naive. And lots of intention, lots of passion. But like I said, the naivety just kept coming in and then one really didn't do much those days. That was bad. So that stung, stung badly. And then I went back to the corporate world, took up jobs, etc. And this therefore was my second stint, right? So this time I was better prepared, Christian. I was better prepared. A, in terms of the financial buffer, which is, which to me, I mean, the way I look at it, there's no sense in just taking a plunge without preparing, you know. So some bit of cushioning, some bit of financial buffer is required, and I had managed to put that aside. My wife was working too, and that was a big, big help, you know, a working partner. Uh, so the financial aspect was kind of taken care of. Um, I think that was a crucial consideration. We had a baby, very, very, very young child those days. He's now 15. So the unexpected, what took me by surprise, I think I still took some time to, for projects to fructify. I still took some time to stabilize and tell myself, look, I found my path, I found my voice, and I found my offering. I've stabilized in all of these and in the pitch that I make to clients. I'd say it took me a little longer than I expected.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Do you— that's interesting. So do you think that, uh, you, you did for yourself initially, from the outset, what you do for others? In other words, do you think— I mean, what you're describing sounds a little bit like brand work.

Yeah, yeah. Yes, it does. And yes, yes. And I had to do that for myself. So the thing is, however, it's like, I don't know how doctors do this, but you can't really self-medicate, right? There's this thing about doctors and medicating themselves, treating themselves. So I didn't do it the perfect, perfect way. I still had a couple of prospects. So I said, let me just latch on to them. Let me start with that business. So thankfully, they did come through. I landed a couple of projects by the time I quit. And I had a book writing project also, right, a commission from a leading publisher here. So I had those things in hand, but, and I said, okay, let me just start working. The theorization, the think and fall come later. Yeah, the thinking analysis can come later. So it was after a year or so, year, year and a half that I actually blueprinted my brand. That I actually sat down and think and did what I did for clients.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a certain amount of— well, I think one of the things that make entrepreneurs entrepreneurs is this bias towards action. Yeah. And it's like, you know, well, I think this might work, but we're not going to know until we try it. And I think maybe because of experience or, you know, good or bad, sometimes as we mature as entrepreneurs, we kind of drift away from that and get more caught up in our head around overthinking, like, is this the right decision? And Has that been your experience? Like, have you— I'm kind of like getting out of your own way or getting out of your own head?

Yes, yes. The first year, year and a half was difficult in that sense also. I think there was immense self-doubt. There was that voice, da da da da da. All of us have that, especially when you're starting off on your own and it's kind of the vast unknown. You have to build from scratch. Yes. So I had that voice. It was quite loud in the initial couple of years. I had to work at it, work at it, change the script. And then it happened. Then I changed the script. And then that's also when about a year, year and a half into this journey, I said, okay, let me now sit down and do for myself what I do for clients. I have done action. I've got those projects. I've run through the initial set of projects. And there is talk with other people. But let me now be clear. I think it's high time I become completely clear about what I stand for, what kind of people do I want to serve, and what I offer them. So the self-talk plus this branding activity, identifying my own brand, articulating that, helped enormously, helped enormously in silencing the voice.

I want to ask a question. Do you know, have you read Rory Sutherland's book Alchemy? No. Okay. Highly recommended. He's brilliant. He's a director at Ogilvy.

And I know of him. Yeah.

Yeah. Fat Englishman. I shouldn't describe him that way, but rotund. And I, because I was just curious, we can talk about him if you want, but okay. So back to my question. I think I look back at my entrepreneurial journey and a lot of my colleagues, and I think branding is probably one of the most misunderstood things in small businesses. And I think it's because when we think brands, and to a certain extent, culture comes into play too. Yeah. And they're kind of related. That, that, that, that's something for big business, right? Or that's something that you do later. But the way you described it from the outset of like truly understanding who you are, what you're about, who you serve, what problem you solve. In terms of developing the brand is really the process that every business owner needs to do more of, not just at the beginning, but continuously. Because I think we get lost in the doing. You know, I said we have a bias towards action. But where that leads a lot of times is it's like without intention. And you end up maybe growing a business like, like I did, that it was like this big conglomerate mess of things and is trying to be everything to everybody. And the whole purpose was to grow it. You, you ended up with something that was unmanageable, unscalable. Yep. And so, so I think what you're talking about in terms of branding is really just an extension of the work I talk about, which is understanding your client, who you're trying to solve a problem for, and being able to explain their problem in words they use, not words you use. Yes. And then have a clear understanding of the value of the solution that you bring. Right. And so branding is the way you described it. Seems like that's just an extension of that thought process.

Yes, it is. It is. And I see it as one of the finest forms of self-expression. So this switch, this reframing came to my mind about a decade ago, which is to say a decade into my career. So I'm 20-odd years into the, into working. It came to me a decade back, and then I had to sit with it. I had to let it simmer. It wasn't clear immediately. You know, it doesn't leap up at you. The idea comes, and then there's something that you work through. So I did that. It took me a couple of years or so. And then I've just made that my approach, my philosophy, Christian. Whenever I speak to someone, it doesn't have to be a prospective client, it doesn't have to be strictly business context, it could be anyone. And then they ask me what I do, and you know, when we get into chat about branding. It is this: branding is self-expression in a professional sense, which means that you don't look at it primarily as how do I beat competition, how do I kill somebody else, how do I nail that. No, you look at it— or the way I'm seeing it is you look at it as an extension or an expression of your potential, an expression of your potential, an expression of your strengths, value system, I tie it to the belief system also. And it's fascinating the minute you get into these areas. I think by and large, I wouldn't say nobody's done this, but by and large, there is no popular body of work on aspects like this, which tie branding and communication with inner work. So I've tried to get into that. I've done a lot of work and research around that, spoken to a lot of people, reflected a lot, and that's how this approach has come about. And so you're right. It is first of all about what I am. How can I shine? How can I be happy? How can I joyously add value to somebody? Who is that somebody? And therefore, can I identify them? And let's talk.

Yeah. And so let's talk about culture for a second because again, I thought culture was something that was for large companies. You know, when 10 years ago, before we really had focused on culture, when I thought culture, I thought Silicon Valley tech companies and it was about ping pong tables and all of the tangible things that you see out there. And we started working—

And your beanbags and all that, huh?

Right, right. That to me was culture. Right. And so I was like, I don't have time for that. I don't have money for that. That's not, you know, that to me seemed frivolous. 10 years ago when we started working on it, we implemented— it was 8 years— the Entrepreneurial Operating System, EOS. Okay. One of the things that Gino talks about in his book Traction, which if you haven't read, I highly recommend. Is the values of the company. And that is something that is foundational that you work on in EOS. And the way the process works is you go through, the exercise is actually very simple but very impactful. You look at your organization and you say, if I were going to start over, who is the one or maybe two people that you absolutely have to have, like you, that they are, they are coming with me to start this thing from scratch. And the leadership team does that. And so you end up with a group of, you know, maybe 5 to 10 people depending on your organization, whatever. Right. And so then you start asking the question, why did we pick those people? Why did you pick that person? And you start coming up with characteristic, a list of characteristics, and you start looking for the pattern and the commonality. And what you end up doing is you see in your organization the values that already exist that you want to amplify, that you want to do more of. They're not aspirational. It's not like this is what we want to be. This is what we are. And what it led to is this understanding of mine, like, you have a culture. It's just a question of whether you're intentional about it. And I would say the same thing about branding. Absolutely. Right? Branding is how others see you, right?

Yes.

Yes. And whether you are intentional or not about it, people have an opinion of you, right, as your company, and that's your brand. And so to what you're saying is, and tying this all back together, is whether you are intentional or not about it, you have culture, you have brand. Yes. And it's, I can tell you from experience that being intentional about those things is much more impactful than just kind of letting it happen.

Correct. Correct. Absolutely. From the minute we are born, we are brands. We're all brands. Every one of us. We create a reputation through our behavior, our words, our actions, what we say, what we do, what we don't do, acts of omission, acts of commission. So cues, a lot of cues are being thrown up, right? So at some point in time in your professional life, you sit up and realize, hey, is there a better way to do this? Now, whether that's an individual or an organization. So if you were to talk about an organization, you'd say, yes, there are about— initially there could be 3 people coming together, and then 3 becomes 17, becomes 100, becomes 20,000. Culture is being built day after day after day, interaction after interaction, at touchpoint after touchpoint. So yes, there is a lot of similarity. In fact, brand and culture are intertwined. Your brand, the definition of the brand that I spoke about, that identity that you articulate, will and should lead to the culture that you foster in your organization. And yes, it is to do it intentionally.

Yes. And, and with small businesses, um, you know, I would say anything under 500 employees, um, maybe 250 employees, The culture and the brand, I would say, although I haven't really thought about it, but it makes sense, is largely based in the founder, the owner, right? Like when you do that culture exercise, that value exercise under EOS, that one of the things at the end is, okay, owner, look at those values that your team picked, does any of them not resonate with you? Because as the founder, as the owner-operator, the values that drive the culture have to be ones that you agree with, right? You can't pick one that is not meaningful or does not resonate with you. And I would think the same thing is true about the brand, like the brand. I'm not saying that it is the founder. It's not like you're putting the founder out there as the brand, but the brand has to resonate with the founder, right?

Yes, yes, has to resonate with the founder. And in most organizations, it does emanate. It is born from the founder. Yes. And then you have a team and then you pull their opinions in and then you try to find shared value systems. You try to find shared beliefs. And then you build the organization on that basis. Yes. But primarily in the initial stages, at least a lot of the founder's identity and personality does get into it.

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Do you have an example of a company that you've worked with where you've seen the impact of getting clear on that brand, how that has positively impacted the business?

Yes. A client of mine, they are a coach education company. So they're in the business of coaching, right? So coaching in a professional sense. As a result of the work that we did together, they dabbled— they had earlier dabbled in different forms of coaching. But once we were through, and this took a few months to, you know, finish, or maybe 2, 2 and a half months, they got this clarity that, look, hey, You know, we are best suited to be coach educators in the sense that we should not be coaching people directly, not getting into organizations and not taking on clients to coach them as executive coaches, career coaches, transition coaches, resilience coaches, creativity coaches. No, they've done a bit of all this earlier, some of, some of this. We realized together that, look, your value, your strength And where you can thrive for the next few years is by helping other coaches become the best, is by training them, is by educating coaches, putting them on the path to mastery. Yes. And when that happened, there was a loud click. There was this loud click, and it was so beautiful. And it's been nearly a year after that. And I can see that the language, the body language, the new vibrance. They have floated programs to coach coaches, to teach, train coaches, and it's all working very well for them.

Yeah. And I go back to the culture example and then I'll mention brand. So the thing about being intentional about your culture and your brand is that it acts as a filter, right? So when you're presented with opportunities or problems, you have something with which to make a decision. So you can't, or you shouldn't, go against your values. Yeah. And it should be a filter or a matrix to apply to the business, whether it's a good or a bad thing, like using that. And I would assume that it's the same with brand. Like, should we do this? Well, is that on brand? Yes. And that sounds like, well, that's limiting, right? Well, you're— but the answer to that question, yes, it is limiting because you have to pick a lane and stay in it.

Yeah, you have to. And one of the things I strongly believe in and tell my clients, it does come up early on. I want to make this very clear at the outset to set expectations right, is, boss, if you want to be a strong brand, then please understand you can't be everything for everybody. Right. You cannot. The greatest brands in the world have not been built by trying to be something for everybody.

Right?

They've not. No. They've always stood for— they've stood for something. They've stood, embodied an idea, a philosophy, a way of thinking, a way of life. And based on that, they've served a certain set of people, people who think the same way, like-minded individuals. People from a certain segment, and that's what we call segments. So if you're clear about that, then it acts as, um, it's a, it's a, it's a beacon, it's a, it's a, it's a laser beam. It helps you focus. Yes. Yeah, the other side of limiting is focus.

That's a brilliant observation. We, we, we, um, we had worked with an agency many years ago, and we— they had done a, a rebrand technically, I guess. I mean, I think the confusion for business owners comes into is like, what constitutes a brand? And I think a lot of them think of, of a logo or maybe a tagline as the brand. Um, but it was in the context of redoing our website, and, and they, they did a rebrand. And, um, then we, we picked as a company a target market, um, that we wanted to serve, which was creative entrepreneurs. And earlier this year, my head of revenue said, I want to change the brand. I want to do a rebrand. And I'm like, hmm, because I'm an accountant and all I saw was dollar signs. And I'm like, okay. But I said, you know, this is your thing. If you believe we need it, do it. And she listed out the reasons why. She said, you know, I don't think what we have resonates with our target customer. Like, if you go and look at our clients' websites, it's very different than what we have. And it wasn't really about the website. And so she worked with a designer and we did a rebrand earlier this year. And when she brought it to the team, I'm like, Huh. I'm like, one, I love it. Two, I never would have come up with that. Like, I wouldn't have even said we need a rebrand, right? But what she did and what the designer did nailed what we were trying to get as far as our image that we promote to our target client.

Yeah, yeah. And that's very frequent, Christian. What you said pans out in thousands of companies, thousands of companies. I've seen it many times myself. The primary disconnect, like you yourself pointed out, is, boss, a brand is not just the logo or the tagline or your website or the colors you use, right? They are parts of the brand, no doubt. They are the visible parts of the brand, some of the visible parts. But a brand is far deeper than that. A brand, I call the brand the heart, if not the soul of your business. Right. So it starts with the thinking. It starts with a thought, an idea, a belief, and then a promise. It's a promise. Yeah. To this target consumer, to the segment that I want to serve. Look, you have this problem or you have this need. There's a gap I can see in your life. I'm here to fill the gap for you, and this is why we should talk— that compelling reason. So these are far more important aspects of your brand which are going to seed into your culture. They're going to seep into your culture, right? These are what is going to permeate. And your logo, your website, all of those will come. They are very important, but as a consequence of this thinking.

Yeah, and our— my head of revenue that made this decision, I'd said to her before, and one of the reasons why I promoted her to the position, I'm like, of all the people in the organization, you get what we do better than anybody because one, she is a creative.

Right.

And she used to be our target client. Like, she understands in a way that none of the other people in my organization really understand. Okay. And that understanding is what led her to say this brand doesn't align and be able to build something better. But without that underpinning, of deep resonance with the target market, like truly understanding who they are, she couldn't have done it. But I think that that's kind of what your point is, is that you can't— it's not slapping a new logo on that. And it's— you got to start with that deep understanding of yourself and who you're trying to serve.

Absolutely. And in the way and in the manner you want to serve them. Yes. Yes. And then, oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. So what you said just now, the penny dropped for you. You said, wow, this is great, but I couldn't have thought of it. So that's in it. That's happened. That happens more often than not. It's sweet, the sensation, the feeling that you have when you know that you've thought something through and the outcome of what you've got at the end of it, that Understanding is bang on. When you and your team have that understanding, when that clicks in your minds, whoa. And it's—

so, so let me ask you this. I get the feeling that you would say every business owner needs to do this work. Everyone.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Okay. So where would you So let's go back to myself 5 years ago, the business owner accountant who was, you know, maybe sold on culture, you know, was trying to be intentional about it. But brand was just like that. Again, that's big companies. That's not something I have money for. And I'm not going to be frivolous. Where would you tell them to start?

I'd ask them to start by deciding the business or businesses in which they want to thrive for the next decade, if not more.

So is that the same thing as a target market?

No, the business, the field, what do you want to do? Okay. What are you trying to solve and therefore what do you want to do? Right. I'm in that zone now. So I said that would be my starting point. So what is the problem that you're spotting outside, or the need that you're seeing outside that you want to get in and solve. So let's talk about that. Let's get crystal clear on that. It's iterative. There'll be debates, there'll be 5 points of view, there'll be options. So one has to sit with them, calm them down, ask them further questions, give them certain stimuli along the way to help them come to this clarity. Now, this is going to then decide what your brand looks like, what it is, blah, blah, blah, everything else? This would be my first question.

Yeah.

And I, I'll just tell you why. Sorry, I'll just tell you why. I think the listeners need to also know this, which is because I could be a person with, um, 100 skills, different interests, passions. Yeah, I might want to start a touring company. I might want to start a writing company, writing agency, a creative agency. I might want to do 5 other things, but the dynamics of each of these businesses is different, likely, right? Most of the dynamics are different. Target audiences, people who consume these businesses' products, they're different. These services, they're different. So one has to understand that a brand can only stretch so much. I can't sit with the same brand, one brand, and say, hey, I'm in travel, I'm selling toothpaste, But hey, I also launched— yeah, I also run an airline. Mighty difficult. Very, very difficult. Which is why it helps to get focused on, you know, one or two businesses which are adjacent, which are allied, which are kind of connected, and then say, okay, this is it.

Yeah. And I think what you're saying is what I'm saying is that you have to do if you want a successful, sustainable business, you have to do the thought work, the deep thought work around understanding who your customer is.

Yes.

What the problem is that you solve, the value of your solution.

Yep.

You have to do the hard work on deciding who you are, the values that you are What kind of company are you? What are you going to amplify? Not aspirational. This isn't like, I want, I wish we were this. This is the best of us as it is right now. Like, this is who we are and this is the best of us and this is what we want to do more of. And from that comes everything else. You know, if you don't do that work, you're not going to get the right service. You're not going to get the right branding or marketing. You're not going to get the right pricing. You're not, you're just going to be guessing.

You're not going to get the right customer.

Exactly. No, no, 100% right. Right. A good brand and all of this work, what we're talking about is is supposed to repel as much as it attracts, right? Yes. Like, someone should see your brand and they're either like, that is goofy as hell, that's not me, or they're going to like, oh, I found my guy, right? That it should have that reaction. It shouldn't be anywhere in between.

Yes, yes, yes. Unless, unless of course we're selling something which is practically commoditized like toothpaste, like shampoo, mas, mas, you know. So except for that, yes. But 95% of all other cases, yes, it has to speak to a certain kind of person and a set of people. It has to attract them. It has to make them come to you again and again and again. And I call them screaming fans. You know, the kind of way— the way I look at building brands is, boss, if you do this well, then your customers are not just going to buy from you, they're going to scream about you from the rooftops. In other words, they're going to advocate for you. They're going to champion your brand. Yeah, that's a big competitive advantage.

Yes. And the only way that happens, the only way you get that reaction from somebody is if it deeply resonates. Like, it's got to touch them somewhere. It's not— you can't fake it. You can't. And to your point, it's not about the colors or the logo or any of those things. It's— that comes— that is the fruit from the tree of understanding, right? That's where it starts.

Yes, yes, yes. So what we're working on, what we're nourishing is the root.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Whatever you see as outcomes, as growth, as anything else is the fruit. Yes. Yes.

I think it's a great analogy. Ganesh, how do people find out more about you and what you do?

I'm active on LinkedIn, so they could hit me up on LinkedIn, follow me there, send me a DM. So I guess you have the LinkedIn link, right?

So yeah, we will, we will put the link in the show notes.

Absolutely. Sure. Thanks. So that, that, that does work. And otherwise I have I'm active on Gmail. So my email ID is T-H-E-W-H-O-L-E-H-O-G, thewholehog@gmail.com. I suppose you can guess why I picked this. I love to start what I finish. I love to see things through. So, you know, you go the whole hog. That's always been one of my credos. And of course, there's my website, www.ganeshv.com. GaneshV.com. GaneshV.com. So I'm active on LinkedIn. You can hook me up, hit me up there, or send me an email or come to my website. You're welcome.

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