Breaking the Agency Mold: A New PR Perspective | Melinda Jackson

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Liverpool, England. Never been to Liverpool, don't intend to be to go to Liverpool, but it is nice to have someone listening across the pond. Joining me today is Melinda Jackson of Melinda Jackson Public Relations. Welcome, Melinda.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. And I would love to go to Liverpool personally.

Really? Okay. I've heard it's not a nice place.

Why not?

You know, they say that. They say that about Pittsburgh too.

So exactly.

Yeah. So before we got on, I started the story. So you're from South Carolina?

North Carolina. No shit. You cannot say South Carolina.

I'm sorry. I probably insulted some— a lot of the listeners here. Okay, so you're from North Carolina, and I was commenting about your accent. And when I was young, I worked very diligently to not have an accent and to write in complete proper Queen's English because I did not want anybody to know that I was from Oklahoma because that came with a stigma. But I think accents are beautiful, and I love yours, so I'm glad you're on the show. Yeah. Now I'll stop talking.

Yeah, I, I've never really tried to hide my accent. If anything, I have to code switch because people can't understand me. So I kind of go into professional mode. Like, if I'm ordering at a fast food restaurant, especially even just ordering in general, I can't say oil. You know, they can't understand me. So I have to say oil. I would love like olive oil or whatever. So sometimes I do have to code switch and speak really clearly.

There's only two letters in that word.

Oh, I also say oysters. I love it. You can't say oysters. Oysters. It's fine.

Before we go completely off the rails, Melinda.

This is what the people want.

I know we're giving them to them. Tell us what you do and how you got here.

Yeah. So, I do public relations. I've been in PR for the last 15 years. I started— excuse me. I started my career in Los Angeles. So, I moved to LA with $500 and just whatever could fit in my Escape, Ford Escape, which is funny that I had a Ford Escape and literally drove it across country and like left my family. So yeah, I moved to LA with $500 because I wanted to work in PR. And 15 years later, here I am. I did entertainment PR there. It was wonderful, beautiful. I did all the red carpets, all the award shows, and got really burned out. So moved back to North Carolina and worked at agencies here, hated it, and realized that the agency system is just so outdated. And they're overcharging the clients and underdelivering. And I just wanted to do more for people. So I started my own company, and honestly, it was accidental because I was applying for jobs and just couldn't get hired anywhere. So I started taking freelance clients, and 6 years later, here I am.

So when you were in LA, were you working for an agency?

Yes. So I had multiple agencies that I worked for there.

Okay. I interviewed you on my other podcast, The Chris Project. And now that you told that story, did I relate my daughter's experience of going to West Hollywood?

Yes, yes, yes. We have very similar thoughts, I think. And I actually worked— the last agency that I worked at was at the Pacific Design Center in West Hollywood. So, yeah, agency life is not for the weak, but I think it's also extremely toxic as well.

Well, my, as I, as I said, my daughter, who is a figurative painter, oil painter, uh, I would have considered my, my most liberal child, uh, found West Hollywood too weird. Yeah, yeah. She, she said, uh, she was calling me one day and she's like, uh, yeah, there's a homeless guy taking a shit in front of my apartment. And I'm like, oh, that's nice, honestly.

And I, and I lived in actual Hollywood, so we called it the Hollyhood, and Now I look back at my Facebook memories and every other day it's— here's like, um, an unhoused person pushing someone in a cart. And then here's— and I have a— it's actually very sad if you think about it, but I have a video of a naked man like spread eagle face down on Hollywood Boulevard screaming. And it's like so heartbreaking, but I took a video because I'm like, guys, this is what I see every day. So honestly That has made me have like a weird, warped sense of security because I am not afraid when I go to New York or LA or Chicago now because I'm like, well, nothing happened to me. But it's— yeah, it's something weird to get used to.

Yes. So I will try and get us back on track. Okay. So, so, so you accidentally became an entrepreneur, which I love. And so, so what was the tipping point of, in your mind, where you're taking on these freelance clients and it's working and then you're like, I'm not going to continue looking for a job. What, when was that and what was your head like?

Yeah. So I took on a freelance client when I was still at my agency just because it was a favor for a friend. And I knew that it's nothing that the agency wanted. So I worked in an advertising agency. So they predominantly did advertising, marketing, and then I was one of the only PR people there. So I was kind of an island by myself and I just took on a freelance client, just helping this lady out. And it was like $500 a month, like it was nothing. And then she said that she had someone who was referred to her that really needed PR in North Carolina. And this lady was based out of DC. So she wasn't equipped to help them. So I was like, okay, sure. So they needed a full-service PR plan, and I was like, well, I'll take her on. I'm just not going to say anything to my agency because I know they won't take her on for this little money anyway. But I can still make $1,500 from her, so that means I'll have $2,000 total. My rent is $1,000, which Sounds insane at the time. So that covers my rent and my bills. So I could do this for myself. And I had put in my 2 weeks. Like, once I realized that, I kind of put in my 2 weeks at my, my job. And I told them, being the nice Christian Southern woman that I am, I'll freelance for you guys until you find somebody to replace me. But I'm very proud of myself. I put it in my own terms. I'm not coming into the office. I'm not going to be on Zooms with you every 5 minutes. You can't keep calling me all the time. I will work on this client and this client, and that's it. And they said okay, um, because otherwise the clients were going to walk if I left. So I worked at a reduced rate, and, um, which I don't even think was even that much reduced from what I had. And then I just kept them as a freelance client until I had enough other clients to cover that cost, and that only took about 2 months.

I love that. That's awesome. So you, you said that the agency model is dead. Yeah. And, and I'm going to pair that with another question, um, because it's, it's always been kind of unclear in my head, and maybe you can clarify it. Um, so you said the agency model is broken. Why do you say that? And what in your mind is the distinction between public relations and marketing?

Okay. So I'll do the public relations and marketing first because I'm going to go off on a tangent about agencies. So marketing is a lot of stuff that I don't do. So for PR, it's really just helping a client get interviews, get podcast interviews like this. Speaking gigs and promoting those things. So I don't do social media for the client. I don't help them with promotional materials. I don't help them with like event planning and, and all these things that you would see as traditional marketing. For PR, I'm really just helping promote whatever they're doing. So if that's positioning them as a thought leader, we do that. If it's helping— if they're throwing an event, I can promote it all day, but I'm not necessarily going to help plan it. I'm not necessarily going to help make the, the swag that people get to take home or whatever. I am really, at the end of the day, just a connector. So I'm connecting them with the media. I'm connecting them with other brands that they can cross-promote with or do a partnership with. I'm connecting them with influencers. That's really what I'm doing.

Okay. Okay. So go ahead with your answer on agency, because I think maybe what my, my confusion in that distinction is that with technology and with the changing landscape, it seems like the lines are potentially blurred more than they had been in the past.

Yes, they're, they're definitely blurred a lot now. So like if I have a client that has a marketing team and then they pull me on, like we'll collaborate on messaging and stuff, but like I'm not building the website. I'm not helping them figure out their visual identity. I don't do that. I can consult on it, but I'm not physically making that for them. So yes, it is blurred. So the agency life— so my experience in agencies, especially creative agencies, is that you are chained to your desk all day, every day. It's great if you don't take a lunch. It's great if you never take a vacation. They, they are going to work you to the bone, and that's how you get respect. Um, it's doing every single thing possible for the client. It's being on call 24/7. And the agencies, a lot of the time, especially the bigger agencies, are going to overcharge and underdeliver. What I mean by that is they're going to overcharge, they're going to sell a bill of goods that they can't actually execute on, or they can execute on, but they are giving the account to an entry-level person or the low man on the totem pole, and that's who's actually working for you, not the person you signed with.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I think, you know, that sounds like a lot of professional models across other services. So accounting or law or, you know, architecture, engineering, whatever, that model, that what I call the partnership model, where the people at the top are the ones that are selling and making the money. But it's predicated on this, this pyramid of low-paid, uh, professionals delivering.

It's an MLM. It's like, I mean, and, and I called it a pyramid scheme.

It is.

Okay, no, I'm not saying every agency is like that, and there's a lot of really great agencies out there that really take care of their people, but I find that a lot of the agencies I work for, especially the bigger they were, that it was— you go in, you have this great interview, and it's like, we have the culture, which that's a whole other thing. It's like, we have this great culture and we have lunch every Friday and we do this and we do happy hours and blah, blah, blah. And then once you start working there, that's not what you get. And you're getting all the grunt work. Your boss is never there. You never get to see them. They're off schmoozing people and bringing in new business. But then they get the commission off that. They get, right, you know, all the money. And you're making $30,000 a year in Los Angeles when you could literally— I was eligible to apply for food stamps, right? It was ridiculous. So I just, I think the agency model can be fixed. I think it just needs to be more fair to people. And honestly, that's probably employment across the board.

Well, it's interesting because the, the, and, and I, I don't, I haven't seen this in the creative spaces, but, uh, the accounting industry is, is kind of going through a crisis because we don't have enough, uh, people coming out of school filling the bottom rungs anymore. Uh, people are not sitting for the exams, they're not studying accounting, and, and all of these business models that are predicated on a bunch of cheap labor are sitting around going, what the hell do we do? Because it's not there anymore, right? And so a lot of them have outsourced to India, you know, or Singapore for accounting. But, you know, it's, it's not the same. And you definitely lose that cohesion as a company when you're operating across borders and time zones. And languages and culture. But that's not the point of this. The reason why I asked that question, and I love your insights, is what, what, you know, you are now in charge, you're the entrepreneur. If you're going to build it, how, how would you do it differently?

Yeah, so I don't have any full-time employees. I have freelancers that I pull from and I have paid interns. And it was very important for me to pay my interns because you know, 15, 20 years ago, none of my internships were paid. I moved to LA. I couldn't find a job. I worked 3 unpaid internships while having about 5 part-time jobs. Like, no one should have to do that. And I don't think it's fair that people are getting free labor from college students just in the sake of experience. So I pay, I pay my interns. One thing that I did love at one agency that I was at, you know, even if I was the low man on the totem pole, if I brought in new business, I got commission off that and I got commission for the entirety of that person's contract. And that really motivated me to help grow the business as well. So I think it really is less about like, oh, let's have this like culture that plays ping pong every day and let's have happy hour on Fridays. And it's less of that and more of let's really get these people to invest in the business and feel like they actually can make a difference in this business and they can grow. And hopefully one day move on and be competition. You know, for me, I, I would much rather be a mentor and have my girls— it's, it's normally girls that work for me— but have my girls go off and work at a massive agency. No, I'm not.

I just called you out.

No, I'm not. PR is predominantly women, so it's a lot of women that knock on my door for internships, but I am proud to say that in the 6 years that I've had a company and have had interns, who all of which I paid, every single one of those women have gone on to work at a huge agency or a massive company as in-house PR, and they're doing better than me. And I love that. Like, that's what I want to see.

I love that. Yeah, I, I think my experience in that regard is you know, you talk about culture and for a long time I thought that that was Silicon Valley and it was, you know, free, free beer and ping pong. Although I don't know that anybody really plays ping pong. No. And, you know, shuffleboard would have been better than ping pong. In any case, And so I kind of resisted it as something that didn't apply to me being a small business, right? Like that didn't apply. But what I came to understand was through implementing EOS, the Employee Entrepreneurial Operating System, was that every business has a culture. It's just a question of whether you're being intentional or not. And the culture is the shared values. Like, what do you agree are the— my colleague calls them rules of the game, which I think is an interesting way to phrase it. But in any case, there are some agreed-upon values that everybody operates under, whether they're spoken or not. Like a lot of companies that say they don't have a culture, They do, but it's just the things that nobody talks about. Like, okay, you can't go talk to the boss about that because that's, you know, they don't want to hear it. They're going to call you stupid or, you know, whatever. And so once we started getting intentional about our culture, which happens, you know, you know you're intentional about your culture is when you fire a client or an employee because they don't fit with your culture. Not because they don't make you money, not because they're not productive, but because they're not a cultural fit. That's when you know that you have, you're living into your values.

It's interesting that you bring up values because I actually had a potential client call yesterday, and I think we're going to end up working together. But his whole specialty is going into organizations figuring out what their values are and if what they're doing actually aligns with the values that they already had in place. And one example he gave me is that he went to this company and their values were like love and kindness, but really when they hashed it all out, it was loyalty and commitment. And I'm like, if I saw that a company's like values were loyalty and commitment, I would say, okay, they're going to work me to death, I don't want to work there. And he's like, exactly. So these people, he gave them the option, either change your culture and/or change your values. They changed their values. They wouldn't change the culture.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Well, I mean, so that's an interesting point because, uh, in EOS, when you define your values, they're not aspirational. They're, they're the, they're what you identify in people that are already there So it's not like Pollyanna, you know, pie in the sky. This is the best characteristics of the people that you already have. So, you know, if it's an exercise that starts with like, okay, if you're going to restart the company, who do you take along? Right. And you get a consensus of like, okay, these are the 3 or 4 people that we would have to bring along if we were going to restart. OK, why did you pick them? And that is what you distill down into your values that are your values. Like, they're there. If you're going to tell a company, well, you know, change your culture, change your values, that's a heavy lift. Because what you're in essence saying is you got to change people. Like, you can't just start writing different words on the board and different posters. You got to change the people because the culture is the people.

Yeah. And it honestly reminds me a little bit of what I do with my clients too, of when we're trying to figure out, okay, their brand messaging. Most people that come to me, they don't know who their target audience is and they have no clue what their brand messaging should be and if it's actually marketing are speaking to their target audience. And when we figure that out, 9 times out of 10, whatever they have told me that they think that their, like, 3 brand words are that they can always check everything back to are absolutely not at all what we find once we start hashing things out.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. And so it's kind of like this entrepreneurial delusion, which, you know, is kind of the flip side of vision. Is the delusion. So like entrepreneurs see vision, they see what's possible, which is great. But a lot of times it keeps us from seeing reality. Like, yeah, this is what you want it to be, but this is what it actually is.

Yeah.

And that lack of clarity caused me a lot of problems. And I've seen it cause a lot of problems for others. Okay. So starting out on your own, what were your biggest challenges operationally, financially, like marketing? What, what was your, what was your biggest challenge?

I, I feel like a lot of it is coming about me in the ass now, 6 years later, because I'd never put processes in place. It was just me. I was just trying to get clients. And, uh, even today, like, I would say 90% of my business is referrals, which is great. People just find me word of mouth, social media, whatever. Amazing. Um, but I was just at the beginning, just had to take anybody that I could get just to kind of build up my client roster. And that's fine, but I never put processes in place. Like, I, I just kind of charged what I— what people wanted to pay. And I didn't stick, like, to my guns in terms of retainers, because what I do is retainer-based. And, um, I was letting people just do month to month if they wanted to. And that was kind of like making things all over the place financially for me when I should have made them agree to at least a 3-month contract. Um, so yeah, I, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing, honestly. Um, and that's okay because it worked out. Um, and thankfully PR is, um, very low overhead. As long as I have my laptop and Wi-Fi, I could do what I needed to do and I could figure it out. It wasn't that I wasn't doing a good job, it's just I had no clue about the business stuff.

Yeah, you mentioned processes, and, you know, there are processes potentially for everything, right? But we usually don't look at those until there's a problem, right? We don't do it proactively. So, like, you run into a problem where there's no cash in the bank, and you say, well, you know what, I need to get my finances in order. And so I start putting in processes like Profit First, or, you know, you hire an accountant or whatever. Or, you know, operationally, you, you, you realize you've got too much work. I can't get it all done. And then you start putting in processes so that you can potentially delegate to others. And, you know, it's much better if you approach those processes, which most creatives The word is an anathema to them. They hate the idea. But, you know, putting those processes in proactively keeps it from biting in the butt, as you put it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that's— sorry, I'm cussing a lot. But yeah, that's fine. Fuck it. Yeah, who cares? But yeah, that's really something I'm feeling now. And I'm like, okay, it's time to shit or get off the pot. I got to do some processes. And I'm a part of a mastermind, and they're kind of helping me put that stuff together and figure out, okay, if I'm gonna scale, what does that look like? And I'm, I'm not the, the girl boss that wants to have a million dollars. I don't need a million dollars. That's the— I don't care, you know. I want enough money that I can invest and have some, like, investment properties and have that residual income. And then I just want to be able to have fun and travel and live my life comfortably, you know. I don't need a million dollars. So right now, I'm really trying to set up things in a way so I can have that life.

I think that's— I think that what you just said was uber critical that people hear because I think a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, get into a situation where others are setting our expectations for us, right? And that, for me, for a long time, it was my peers. Initially, it was the people that were in my franchise network, and I would look at the largest franchise and I'm like, I want to be that big, right? But then when I got out of the franchise network and moved into Entrepreneurs Organization and I saw all of these entrepreneurs in different industries that were 10 times the size I was and profit. And like, you know, I, I let that drive my goal. And if you're not careful, you end up in a place where I was, where you're chasing somebody else's dream. Right. And not— you're not going to be happy doing that.

Exactly. Yeah, I think especially as a female entrepreneur, the— there's this pressure to hit $1 million and to then, you know, 7 figures, 7 figures. That's always what it is. And, um, and, or like 8 figures, 9 figures. Like, I, I heard 9 figures on a podcast today. I'm like, why? Why? I don't need— I don't need 9 figures. Like, that's ridiculous. And there's this pressure to be this girl boss. Like, if men can do it, we can do it. And, you know, million— hit your first million. Here's how I hit my first million. And, and I just sat there and I was like, I am not putting that pressure on myself. I don't need it. How much money do I need? This is how much money I need. I'm good. If I had more than that, amazing. I can buy some rental properties, I can get some Airbnbs, whatever. Have that, that my— that's what my parents have done in their retirement. I want to do it as well. And you know, I don't need the million dollars. Stop putting that pressure on yourself.

Yeah, because the reality— here's the reality. I'm just going to be— because I'm not hyping anything and I'm not hyping anybody. The percentage of businesses in the United States that reach $1 million is 4%. That's all businesses, you know, across all industries. It's 4%, which, which means, frankly, you have to do things and be something that the vast majority of the people are not willing to do. Right. And most people won't. And that's okay. I'm here to say it's totally okay to not do those things. Yeah. Because if you don't define success, you're never going to achieve it, right? Like, if it's just more, then you're never going to be satisfied.

Exactly. And you're going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing it and just working yourself to death and comparing yourself to everybody else. I, I realized, like, at the end of the day, all I want to do is help people. I know I'm good at PR. I know I am good at connection. This is my God, like, God-given gift, you know. This is what I'm good at. If I can make money on it and make a really wonderful life for myself, amazing. But I want a life of ease. I don't want a life where I am working 24/7. I can never calm down, where my anxiety is bad, where I'm having panic attacks all the time. I don't want that.

No, no. And the reality is that if, if you don't draw the line for yourself, others are going to push you into that, right? I mean, like, your mastermind, your peer groups, the world, social media, whatever is going to push you in that direction if you don't define it for yourself. Okay. What would— you know, you mentioned being a mentor, and I love that. What do you try to impress upon young people that are, I guess, young women Yeah, that are— I mean, I guess I'm a male, I can't do PR. That's fine.

You can. There are plenty of men that do PR.

No, that's totally fine because I'm just going to go ahead and go take the other side and say there are things that you can't do.

That's true. That's fine. That's fine.

You can't be an engineer.

So that's— I don't want to be.

So what do you look for to help them with?

Yeah, so for me, it's a lot of just teaching them what to look for in terms of when they're looking to work at an agency. That's what most people want to do. And just saying like, look, this is what my experience was at the agencies that I worked at. This is what my experience was looking at places that have in-house PR. This is what to ask for. This is what to expect. And I think the what to expect is really the most important thing because Every single one of, uh, the awesome young women that have worked for me have gone into agencies and said, oh my God, it's just like you said, it's just like you said. I don't want them to feel like the rug is being pulled out from under them like I did. I didn't have any warning. I didn't know anybody that worked in PR. No, my parents didn't even know what PR was. They thought— they still think I work in marketing.

I still don't. I still don't.

I send emails all day. That's what I tell my parents. I get people on the news. Um, but that's what my nephews say. They're like, sissy gets people on TV. That's what I do. Um, but yeah, I think that's, that's the most important thing to me is really just like truly preparing them for what the real world is going to be like and juggling those schedules and what to expect, what to ask for. Um, and just kind of knowing what's going to be asked of them as well.

Helping set expectations. Yes. Yeah, I think that's important. Yes. Because as a young person, you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. What would you— what advice would you give yourself 6 years ago when you started out? Like, besides putting in processes? Yeah, we've got that one. What advice would you give your I'm going to take a wild guess, 29 self, 29-year-old self.

I was 30. So yeah, close enough. Or I, yeah, I just turned 30. Um, I would tell myself that just to like stick to your guns in terms of your fees. Like people, especially being a female and, you know, at the time being a freelancer, people will run all over you in terms of fees. And I just— I was desperate, and I was in that lack mentality of, I just got to get money, I just got to get money. To just know the money's going to come, you have to say no to the low-paying clients because they are going to ask you for the world, and you're going to want to deliver it. So to just really stick to my guns in terms of my fees, I think that is very sound advice.

And I think it's sound advice throughout your, your journey because I, what I have found is that the ones, I don't know if it's intentional or not, like they set out to do this, but it is the ones that want the lowest fees are the most demanding.

Yes.

And I think it's, I think it's, it's actually a reflection of the fact that they don't see value in what you do. You know, if, if they were willing to pay more, they would understand the value. But because they don't, they don't understand the value you bring. And so they just want more because they're not getting enough, right?

Yes, yes. And the— I always tell people this— I've had $10,000 a month retainer clients, and they paid the invoice the second I send it. They never ask any questions. They were happy with whatever I got them. If we didn't get anything for a month, they were like, okay, well, we know how PR goes, it's fine. Because that's what happens sometimes. But the people that pay $1,000 are the ones that are like, okay, why am I not on Good Morning America yet? How come you haven't got me on the COVID of the New York Times? She's in Forbes. How come I'm not in Forbes?

Did you tell them that they had a face for radio?

No. My boyfriend works in radio. So that's wonderful. We hear that all the time.

He's ugly. Is that what you're saying?

No, he's not ugly.

Okay.

All right.

I have a face for radio too.

So I'm like, no, uh-ohs here.

Not going to cast stones. Not going to cast stones. Yeah. And I think that most entrepreneurs starting out have that fear of charging what they're worth. I think some of it comes from lack of experience that they feel they can't justify that fee. But As I've mentioned many times on this show, it starts with understanding the value you bring. Like, you know, the problem that you are solving for your customer or your client, what is the value to them of that problem? And your solution should be priced accordingly. If you're giving somebody a million dollars worth of publicity, they shouldn't have any problem paying $100,000 for it.

Exactly. Right. And, and that's something that's kind of hard too, because PR is not this tangible thing all the time. You know, again, I'm sending emails. Okay, it's up to the person to respond to me. The, the client is like, okay, I just paid you $3,000. What have you done? I'm like, well, I've sent 57 emails and haven't heard back from anybody, but I'm really trying. I'm really trying. It's hard for them. It's hard for me. Um, and I have to remind myself at the end of the day that I can't charge the same thing I charged 6 years ago. I can't charge the same thing that, that the agency I worked at 15 years ago charged. I have a Grammy. I have an Emmy. I did that shit myself. I, I helped my clients win those. Yes. So that gives me some accolades. I have tons of industry awards. I just applied for a lot of other industry awards. Hopefully I win. We're going to manifest that. But I, I can up my fees. I have every right to do so.

So why haven't you?

Because I need therapy. No, uh, I'm trying. I'm working on it. I'm— the, the thing is, again, and I'm sure you get this and other listeners will get this, is like when you just love what you do and you know it's your purpose, it's hard. It's hard to charge for that sometimes. And when you just want to help people, yes, you know, if they come to you and they're like, I have $3, but I really, I really believe in this and I really need help, you want to help them. And so you will, like, what is it, fall on the sword or whatever, like, whatever the saying is, you will fall on your own sword. For it. Like, it's hard.

I think, I think with experience you'll get over that. Uh, I, I, I shared that, uh, feeling that you have, but what I came to realize is that someone's, someone's passions or feelings about something don't necessarily equate to a commitment.

And, you know, I should not care about something more than they care about it, which is what happens a lot, especially in PR, especially in what I do.

And like, if you're not going to do the work that you need to do, there's no reason for me to do the work you want me to do. Like, this isn't like me fixing your problem for you. This isn't me doing something that you can't do for yourself. I mean, you have to do for yourself first. Before I can help you.

Yeah.

And, and once I got over that, then it's easier to say no. I mean, I had, I had, I had this friend of mine that was trying to launch a product. And, you know, he's my age. He's not young. But he's an engineer by trade. I bag on engineers a lot. And, and really had trouble just doing anything. He just thought a lot, right? And so he was in love with the process of thinking about this product and thinking about the business. And I met with him and I said, okay, here's your homework. And when you come back and you've done your homework, um, we'll, we'll, we'll move on. And The funny thing was, is he didn't do the homework, but he actually blamed me for not doing the work. And we didn't talk for a year. I didn't know he was mad at me, like, but he reached out to me and goes, we need to meet and clear the air. And like, he's telling me like, well, I did what you asked me to do. And I'm like, I don't think so, but Okay. And we patched that over. But my point is, is that I could have got sucked into helping him when my help was going to be completely useless until he did what he needed to do.

And that's what I find a lot in PR. People will come to me and they'll say, I really need PR. And we have to break it down. Okay. What do you have? Do you even have anything that's worth promoting? No. So, okay, we're not doing this. We're not like—

make me famous.

That— I swear to God, that's what I get from people. They're like, make me famous. I just want to be famous. I want to be known.

Yes. Can you do that for me?

I want to be famous. Okay, I got you.

Okay. I have a colleague. I have a colleague that I invited him on the podcast and, uh, the Chris Project, not this one. And he said, why would I want to do that? And I was, well, make you famous. Yeah, tongue in cheek, right? I think there's like, you know, 10 downloads an episode, so that's not going to make him famous. And he said, why would I want to be famous? He said, that's a tax. Like, he looks at being famous like as a negative. Like, he doesn't want people to know.

Hey, I've seen it. I have seen it. Trust me. I don't want to be like actual famous at all. I want free stuff. I don't want to be famous.

No. Well, Melinda Jackson, how do people find you if they want to learn more about you or what you do?

Um, it's very easy. Melindajacksonpr.com, @melindajacksonpr on social, and then my personal, if you want to see just like me being very chaotic and fun. Uh, my personal Instagram is @melindagale, G-A-L-E. That's my middle name because I'm Southern.

Everybody has a Southern name, I mean a middle name.

Yeah, but in the, but in the South— oh, they didn't give you a middle name?

No, my parents were hippies, so no, I, I have, I have no middle name.

It's just Christian Brim. Well, I'm Melinda Gale, so you know, in the South you have to say, call people by their second. Yeah, both. And if you don't know their middle name, you make one up for them.

Yes. Well, you're, you're probably going to guess about half the time.

Yes, correctly. There's only like 4, right?

I'll put those links in the show notes. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, shoot us a message and we'll replace Melinda.

Yep, that's fine. No harm, no foul.

Tata for now.