Building a Business: A Creative Endeavor | Sheryl Plouffe

I think that where the creative side of it comes from is that if it's a creative intent and we can actually generate revenue through products we create, programs that we create serving others, that we're able to have the life that we want on the other side of that, to be able to have the freedom of schedule, the freedom of time, the freedom of choice that we would like to have. And, and really, I guess one could argue that those are creative pursuits where it allows for you to have creative pursuits, and maybe those are the ways in which you express it.

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Cheryl Plouffe of IconMaker. Welcome, Cheryl.

Thank you, Christian. Looking forward to this conversation and, uh, thank you for having me on your show.

Absolutely. So tell our listeners the Reader's Digest version of who you are and how you got here.

18 years old, started working in television, spent 25 years as a broadcaster here in Canada on the national stage, started my company in 2017. Last year in 2023, we started a joint venture called IconMaker, and now we help entrepreneurs build 6 and 7 figure businesses through the power of podcasting. Specifically around high-trust relationships and strategic alliances.

Oh, that sounded scripted. You've said that before, huh?

I have said it before, but it isn't scripted.

Oh, all right.

Well, you know, script in front of me.

That's the 25 years in broadcasting that does that.

It is. You know, I did learn to speak in soundbites. I'll tell you that because I spent— we actually calculated it. Christian Brim at one point to quantify how many hours of live TV I've done over my career. And it measured out to be over 20,000 hours.

Oh my God. That sounds awful. Well, I mean, it sounds awful to me. It wasn't awful to you.

It wasn't awful.

So what prompted you to make the change at an older age? Why did you leave broadcasting?

Well, I think it was partly because I saw that broadcasting was changing so radically. My husband and I both spent many, many years, decades in broadcasting. And so, we both saw the changes happening as a result of digital, as a result of social media. And it wasn't always in favor of the television industry. And so, we've seen that though over the last decade especially. And we have had many, many friends who've lost their jobs. And it's just a part of evolution. It's just the way things are going. And so it really started for me in 2013, was when I started to feel that urge, that inside knowing of there's something else I need to be doing now. But it took me 4 years to get to the point where I was really able and willing to officially cut ties with that profession because I had a great job, you know, I had a coveted job and it was a It wasn't anything that I disliked about it really, save for the fact that it felt like I was in an industry that was declining, not necessarily growing. And so, I wanted to be on the side of expansion and growth. And it's also how my mind works. So, for me, it made sense for me to start my own company. I started it in 2017. I didn't know really what I was doing, as we often do in entrepreneurship. But one foot in front of the other. And next thing you know, I was able to reach that elusive, or what sometimes is elusive for people, six-figure level in my first year. And then, I was able to really progress through the pandemic into more, I think, business advisory is really where it kind of developed. And then, last year, we started IconMaker. So, it's been an interesting journey, but that's what it has been in short.

So, we talk a lot about called the difference between the check signer mentality versus the check casher being the distinction between an entrepreneur and an employee. And I realized early on that I was not a good employee. Not that I thought that I was going to be a great entrepreneur, but I wasn't good at hearing no. I worked in the banking industry, please forgive me, and there's, there's never been created a more conservative, thoughtless group of people in the universe than bankers. And I'm not bitter, I swear, but, but I mean, I, I, I, I was just kind of dumbfounded. And I was young, so I didn't really know a lot. I didn't have a lot of experience, but it didn't feel right. So What I imagine that if you were not in an industry in decline, that that would have been a much harder decision for you to make.

Yes, it would have been because I really loved, I loved that profession. That's why I decided to pursue a career in it because I really enjoyed it. I love certain aspects about it. I mean, you know, when I think about communication, I mean, that's predominantly what we did, communicate. And in my case, I worked at The Weather Network and we're taking a lot of scientific meteorological information from our morning briefings with the scientists. And then we're taking that and we're making it palatable for the general public to understand what it is that they need to do to plan for their day. That was what our jobs were, was disseminate the scientific data. So I was getting fed my brain was being fed by that aspect of it because I love to learn and I love to expand and I'm, I'm smart and I can catch on to things and I loved that aspect of it. But then to turn that into something that people can understand is really what we did predominantly in that. And I loved that part of it. I also loved the marketing aspect. You know, I recognized that I was a TV personality, that I was really being hired to market to some extent the network and what it is that we do and improve on the metrics around viewership and length of viewing and other metrics that we would measure. I also was a news manager for several years at that, at that company. And so I was able to manage a team of 17 people and really developed my managerial skills over that time and had a huge budget with which to work from in the editorial side of things. I just learned so many different things about that industry. The only thing that really wasn't sitting well with me was the fact that I wasn't seeing a path forward. I wasn't seeing the kind of freedom that I was striving for or wanting in my life at that time, mostly because, Christian, I had a young son. I have a young son, or had a— he was young at the time, right? So I wasn't able to be there for him. I wasn't able to be there and having breakfast with him when he was sent off to school, or I wasn't there in the evening as much. You know what? It was just really around family and your priorities change when you have a child. And we hear that a lot and that makes sense. Your priorities do change. And so, that was a big part of it. I was also commuting 2+ hours every day to go to that job because I didn't live—

In Canada? There's that much traffic?

Okay. Yes. Well, the 401, the Highway 401 is actually the, I believe it's the most traveled highway in North America.

Wow.

From a volume perspective, it's a huge highway that And that's fine. I knew going into it that I didn't live where I was going to be working, but I, you know, I was able to stick with it for 17 years. But after about, you know, after your 13th, 14th, 15th year, really, you start to get pretty tired of doing that long drive every single day. And so it was— those were predominantly the reasons why I decided to pursue it, not to mention just the inner knowing. The inner— that you get that nudge inside of yourself. I think as a creative, we can relate to that idea of like, well, what's speaking to me now? What is it that's in my heart? Where is my— where is that drive coming from? That inner knowing that there's something else I ought to be doing and pursuing and finding another creative outlet for who you are as a person.

Do you think you could be an employee again?

No. No, I do not.

Well, welcome to the club. So when you, you, you mentioned this creative outlet and, and that it, you needed a, a place for it. One of the things we discuss a lot on this show is the application of creativity to make money, and that there, there's a balance there because creativity, as, as my daughter, uh, who is a, a a full-time artist, will— she put it as, if you're doing something truly creative, there really can't be a commercial intent. Now, she's, she's a painter, so, you know, I, I think it might be different for her, but I, I think it, it's something to, to dive into. Do you, do you think that what you do as a creative really is inspirational, or is, or is it directed with a commercial intent?

I think it's directed with a commercial intent. In my world, it is directed with a commercial intent. And I think that where the creative side of it comes from is that if it's a creative intent and we can actually generate revenue through products we create, programs that we create serving others, that we're able to have the life that we want on the other side of that. To be able to have the freedom of schedule, the freedom of time, the freedom of choice that we would like to have. And, and really, I guess one could argue that those are creative pursuits, or it allows for you to have creative pursuits, and maybe those are the ways in which you express it. Like if you have more time and more freedom of schedule, you can travel more. You can maybe, you know, take up a hobby that you'd wanted to take up that you weren't previously able to take up. So everything in our world though is, well, we believe at IconMaker that it's about being able to do something that you love and serve people but make money at the same time. That it isn't a case of got to do this so that I can get to a point where I can enjoy my life, that they should be happening at the same time.

So how, how has that changed now that you're an entrepreneur, that application of the creativity? Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Well, for me, I mean, I don't really— my life is all about— well, my son plays baseball. He's a high-level baseball player and also a hockey goalie. So the creative— I guess maybe the family time or the creative outlet for us is spending time with him doing and pursuing those sports. If you've ever had a child who plays competitive, um, competitive sports at that level, it takes up a lot of time and energy and funds. And, but it's a blast and I wouldn't have traded it for anything. So for us, or for me especially, I think that that's the freedom that I was after. I wanted to be able to take my work with me and I have done that. You know, I just, Recently, you know, we're in Indianapolis. He's there for a showcase. I'm able to bring my computer. I'm working from the lobby or, you know, I'm able to take the time that I need. It's like, oh, we're going to the game now. When I come back, let me do a couple hours of work. Boys are off swimming. I can do a couple of hours work. But having that sense of freedom is exactly what I had always envisioned.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. I want to, I want to come back to that, but I have to opine that that was my happiest days. One of my happiest days was when my, my daughter said that she was not going to play on the competitive soccer team.

I do understand. I do understand. It's a lot. It's a lot. But when I think about what my husband and I are— we've talked about this many times, he and I— that we're so proud of having had the ability to give him those experiences through sports. My husband was actually a sports director at a TV station for over 3 decades. And so sports is really just a big part of our lives. And to be able to have had the opportunity to give him those experiences and, you know, with different teams and different sports and being in hotels and going to restaurants and visiting different cities and the highs and the lows of it all and all the lessons that come from it. In fact, you know, it's just something that I'm really proud of having been able to do. And so, you know, is that a creative outlet? To me, it is. It might not be interpreted that way by someone else who doesn't desire to have that type of life. But for me, that has been an expression of creativity, I think.

Yeah, I love that. I want to go back to what you said, the time freedom. And I think that a lot of entrepreneurs end up trapped with their business. They become beholden to it. And to me, it's a balance between financial freedom and time freedom because you want both. And it sounds like you've navigated that well. Has it ever come to a point where you had to make that decision? To choose one or the other?

Oh, certainly. Yeah, I think so. I mean, especially early on, uh, in the early few years of my business, which was predominantly focused on video marketing at that time. And like I said earlier, I didn't really know what I was doing. I knew what I was good at, but I didn't know how to take what I was good at and turn it into a viable program or product, or how to sell that. I didn't have sales skills. For something of my own, I wasn't, you know, those skills were not there. And so I was still learning while I was doing. And yes, you have to put in sometimes long hours, and yes, you have to sacrifice at some point the time at that point in order to have the financials to be able to sustain you and to be able to build back into your business and to keep reinvesting. And so I think that I see that now with people that we serve because they're at that level. I'm just— we're serving the people that we were several years ago. That's really how it's worked out. And so, I definitely see that. You have to recognize what stage you're at in order to know what are the activities and things I should be doing at this point. Are other people doing these things? Are other people sacrificing this amount of time for their business and their goals? And then you come to find out, and that's why I believe in coaching and that's why I believe in group coaching because I believe that group coaching is actually more advantageous than one-on-one coaching because you can be in an environment where you realize, "Oh, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one who's going through this." And because entrepreneurship can be awfully lonely. Yes. Yes, it can be awfully lonely. So, when you can see that other people are going through that and you can get the kind of advice that you need to know, okay, these are the activities I should be doing, these are the things I maybe shouldn't be doing quite as much of in order to attain the goal. But I'm not really a believer in, say, work-life balance. You know, we hear that term a lot. I think it's work-life integration. I think Tony Robbins speaks about it that way as well, like it's an integration of those two things together.. And you will probably be doing that for, you know, if you're going to be committed to your business for some time, it could be 5 years or 10 years or whatever your goals are. You have to learn to integrate those things together because they, they're, they need to work in tandem.

Yeah. I find that as an entrepreneur, it's really hard to turn it off that, you know, and so I think integration makes a lot more sense than, because I can tell you that when I go home at night, it's not like my brain shuts off and I stop stop thinking of things. So giving myself the space, the grace to not fit into some predefined structure of what is a workday or what is a work week has helped a lot because it doesn't make sense to go in and, you know, I'm going to work 9 to 5 and I'm going to do that every day. For an entrepreneur because that's not the way life works. Now, you know, there, there may be things that you do have to accomplish every day and, and have to have some structure, but I, I think for me, being able to, uh, step out of— outside of that model has been much more productive.

Certainly there are activities that you need to do every single day in order to see see progress and move forward. But the flexibility of being able to choose your own schedule is one of the advantages of being an entrepreneur, so you ought to take advantage of it. You know, I— let's say, for example, I might have time-blocked time on my calendar in the morning to do certain activities, but I don't know, maybe something happens. Maybe there was an unexpected thing that happened at school that I need to attend to. I can take that block of time and I can move it to the evening. I'm still going to do that thing, but I'm just going to move it in my calendar and move it off to a different time set. And so, having that, you can't do that with a job. You can't decide what your shift is going to be. It is the shift. When you're doing shift work, the shift is the shift. And so, we as entrepreneurs get to take advantage of that. And it's one of the most exciting things about it. Not to mention that you're not capped financially and that you can earn whatever it is that you set out to earn. You can make that goal and you can attain it.

Yeah, I, I learned that very quickly, that, you know, I— you could— you can work to make somebody else money, or you can work to make yourself money. And as an employee, it doesn't matter how much you make. You could make a million dollars a year, that just recognizes the value that you bring, uh, but, but the business is making a lot more than that off of you. You know, like, take professional sports, like The NBA, they're paying their, their players millions of dollars and have huge payrolls, but that's, that's why the players are millionaires and the owners are billionaires, right? So it doesn't really matter the dollars, it, it's the fact that you're never going to make, uh, as much money as you can, uh, working for somebody else if you have that characteristic of an entrepreneur. Not everybody does, right? Not everybody is willing to, uh, put in the work. Uh, not that employees don't work, but the difference in my mind is, as an entrepreneur, it's on you to ensure that, that it happens. Doesn't mean that you have to do it, but it's your responsibility and no one else's. And some people can't handle that. Some people— I'd say most people, most people want to be told what to do. And that may sound bad, but, you know, they don't, they don't want to come up with the vision and make it happen.

I agree with you. I don't think everyone is cut out for entrepreneurship. No, there are, and there's nothing wrong with that. As I think it's about self-awareness and understanding what kind of person you are and how you want to get through life and how you like to operate and what kind of stresses that you want to bring into your life. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're an employee, you have your own types of stresses. If you're an entrepreneur, you have different kinds of stresses. And it's just making a choice about how you choose to live your life. Not everyone is cut out for entrepreneurship. There are stumbling blocks. It is the biggest form of personal development that you'll ever put yourself through is starting your own business and running your own business. And you do have to learn a lot of different skills early on. Like when you're building your, your business to that 6-figure milestone, let's say, which is typically the big milestone that most people want to attain so that they can continue to grow. You can hustle your way to 6 figures. We talk about this in our workshop, right? You can hustle your way to 6 figures, but what gets you to 6 doesn't get you to 7. So once you get to that milestone, now you have to have a different strategy, different skills, different touch points and different things you need to do in order to grow to 7. And then 7 to 8 is different still. So, it never stops depending on what your goals are. Not everyone aspires to have a 7 or 8-figure business. I think most people should strive for at least a minimum of 7 in my view today because of the way that the world is and the expense of the world around us. But not everyone has that desire.

No. And to your point, I, I've spoken about this before. The, the work I had to do on myself to be able to move the company forward was, I, I think, harder than starting the business. And so I can totally understand where someone has a profitable business and they don't want to go any further. Because it is work. And to your point, it isn't, it isn't a linear thing. You can't just go from $0 to $10 million and you as a person not change. That doesn't happen.

Yeah, 100%. It is all about self. It's about personal development, professional development. It's just development. You will develop yourself in ways that you never thought you could or should as you start a business and especially as you grow and continue to grow. And I think there's something, Christian, to be said also for the type of work that you want to do. So, we happen to specialize more so in the coaching side of things where people develop programs to serve other people in a coaching capacity, in a mentorship capacity. But not everyone desires to do that. That's why you see some people gravitating toward e-commerce. They want— don't want to work with people. They want to sell a physical product, and so they gravitate more toward e-commerce. But it's, it's about self-awareness and knowing, like, the 10— we tend to work with more the people that are heart-centered people that really want to have an impact, and they want to leverage their knowledge and wisdom to have more impact on the world around them or the world at large, and do that through other people. And so, you know, you do have to make it— there's lots of different ways to make money online. And there's lots of different ways to make money, not online. So you just have to choose your path and then start pursuing it. And then the biggest thing is being committed to it, which of course creatives know. And your daughter being an artist too knows commitment to the art, commitment to your projects, commitment to your business. They're all, in my view, those are all just forms of art, right? Building a business can be argued that it is a It's a form of art. Today's episode of The Profitable Creative is brought to you by Core Group. Are you tired of doing it all yourself? Do you feel like you have no plan? Let Core Group guide you to build the business of your dreams. Core Group, your go-to accountant for creatives.

I, I, I agree with that. I think that all entrepreneurs at some level are creative because they're birthing something that didn't exist before. I think I want to pivot and ask you, what were some of the financial challenges you had in your entrepreneurial journey?

So many, Christian. So many.

Well, just highlight a couple.

Oh gosh. Okay. Well, I remember at one point I didn't— this is embarrassing. So here we go. You know, when I first started, I didn't know— I'm not an accounting type person. I'm not a bookkeeping person. I don't know. I don't really have much desire to know or have interest in that side of things. So, I was running my business through my own personal checking account.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. Right?

You don't need to be embarrassed about that because that's a common mistake.

Okay, good.

Yeah.

So, I'm not alone. I love that. But that was, I didn't know what I didn't know. And so, you know, because I just wanted to kind of just, I'm a person who just like, well, I don't have all the answers. Let's just start doing it. And we'll figure it out as we go. And it didn't take long, granted, to figure out, okay, that's not how you do it. Fix it and get on with it and get the business accounts and get the business. Okay. So, we did that. But that was thing one. And the reason that that all came to a head was because I looked and I had $100 in my account one day. Okay. All right? To run a whole house. Right. And a business. And a business. So, that was like, "Okay, that's not really working." That was a problem.

Yeah.

So, there was that. And then, so what do you do? You fix it and you figure out a better way. But even when we were starting IconMaker, we had expenses that we had rented a beautiful studio in Charleston, South Carolina to run our virtual event from. And coming up with the funds to do that was a, it was a challenge because we were a startup. The three of us together as a joint venture were startup. And so, you know, there were some tense moments, there were some tears, there were some tense moments behind the scenes because you're trying to make this dream come to a reality and it takes funds to do that. I think that's one of the things that I see in the make money online space in general. There tends to be this this, um, this thinking that it doesn't cost money to start a business because it's online. And that's not true at all. It doesn't matter if you're starting a business, a brick-and-mortar business on Main Street, or if you're going to start an online business. You do have to have some funds to start that business off. In the online space, it could be as much as, you know, having a tech stack. Well, that costs money. Those subscriptions, those things that you need to purchase to be able to run an online business, not to mention your accounting software and all those different things. So I would love for people to really rethink that. And I talk to people all the time who say, well, well, I just want to start this business. Okay, well, you know, what kind of funds do you have set aside for that? Well, none. It's an online business. Okay.

Yeah, I think that that's kind of a bigger picture I see with creative types, and I throw myself into that mix for purposes of this discussion, although I still struggle with that moniker. When you have a business and you're trying to manage your finances, there are some things that are obvious, right? And those expenses that you have to spend, you know, you can manage them, make sure you're spending the least amount possible. But there's some baseline, baseline expense that, you know, to do, to do what you do, there's these expenses. I see where people struggle with expenses when they're more discretionary, like nice to have, not have to have. And like your icon maker, where, you know, you're putting money out front that you think will make you money, but you don't know. What I, what I see is not a lot of critical thinking leading up to that, right? So it's, as I discuss in the book, when you have those type of investment expenditures where it could be hiring an employee, it could be a joint venture, it could be a new piece of equipment, whatever, you have to have a clear path of how that expenditure is going to make you money. Now, now you may be wrong in your assumptions, uh, and that doesn't guarantee that you're going to make more money, but it can't be a 'I think,' you know, and not really think. You, you've gotta, you've gotta work the, work the thought process and say, 'This is how it's going to make me money, and I have a clear path forward.' Yeah, I think as long as it—

this is the benefit of having marketing experience, because marketing is really all about testing and measuring and adjusting and—

I thought it was sorcery and witchcraft.

I'm sorry. Some people think so. Some people think so. And it is numbers game, right? If you can understand the numbers and now you can start to do some analysis and you can predict with some level of certainty based on prior data that this is to happen here or these were our numbers there and this is what we might expect to see, And that is how we actually approached IconMaker in the early stages as well. Because what we did was we decided to acquire assets from someone else who was getting out of the industry to start our own, to start this company. So, there were some prior metrics that we could lean on to some degree. Now, we did not have certainty, as you said. We did not have certainty, but we made some calculated decisions. And lo and behold, you know, we were able to essentially create IconMaker as a, you know, like we did really well. I mean, on our first event, we had 36 or 37, I think 37 high-ticket clients out of that one event, which really is what kicked us off. And, you know, but yeah, it is challenging. The financial side of things is a challenging gauntlet of decisions and challenges that you're going to face.

But, but to your point, you said earlier that, you know, you had to learn a lot of things as a business owner. And I can't tell you who, uh, coined this phrase. It was somebody in the software space that had said you need to know enough. Business owners need to know enough. You don't need to know You don't need to be an expert in everything, um, but you do need to know enough. And finance and accounting and tax are, are one of those things that's fundamental to every business. I would say that, that marketing is fundamental to every business. You know, management of people may not apply to a lot of businesses, but that's one skill that you had the benefit of learning, but I didn't. I had never hired somebody before I hired people in my employee, and good God, did I— was I awful at it. So, you know, there's some things that, you know, you— I don't have to become an HR professional. I don't have to become a CPA or a chartered accountant, but I've got to know enough.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, you don't need to be the expert of all experts in order to make a decision. And especially when you get to a certain point in your business that you're able to hire that advice. You're able to hire people who can help you work through thoughts and ideas and be able to make better decisions. But I agree. I think a lot of it is— I certainly don't approach our business as needing to know every single thing, but I want to have some type of working knowledge about what's going on. And I think this is true too when you are at a point where you're growing and you need to build systems, that building those SOPs for other people so you can delegate properly at some point, it makes more sense for you to be the person who creates the system and understand it at some level. And then ideally, you hire someone who's better at that thing than you were as you created the system, right? And there are people who are way better at things. You cannot be the expert at every single thing. So build a system, know enough, figure out the system that you'd like, and then hire somebody else who you can delegate that to. And if you hire right, you can have somebody who comes back to you and says, "I like what you did here, but I actually think it'd be better to do it this way." "Oh, okay, great. Let's go forward." So, I think delegation, and that's where that comes into play too.

Yeah. Because if you as the owner choose to be oblivious on these things, then you're just hoping that whoever you pay to do these things is doing it right. And that's fine if you find somebody that has your best interest and, and is ethical and will do those things, but you're still not going to get the lift that you would if you had some fundamental knowledge to be able to communicate with them, right? So, so the know enough to me is, is two things. One, knowing enough to know whether it's being done right And two, being able to communicate what you want to that person. I learned this lesson when I went onto the wilderness and started a software company for 2 years and I was working with developers. And I quickly found out that I had to learn enough coding so that I could even communicate to them what it was that I wanted and then of course understand whether they were doing what I wanted.

Speaking the right language, I think, is a big part of it. Just being able to say, "Okay, I can speak the language enough that I can communicate what it is I'm seeking to do or aspiring to do or looking to build." I agree with that. And that's true in your space in coding, or if we were talking about marketing, to be able to have a conversation about what marketers talk about., as they test and measure. And so same could be true of coaching, right? There's different language and different vernacular in each and every industry.

Well, I like to use the analogy of going to the doctor. And if, if you go to the doctor and you only answer the questions that they ask, uh, but you don't ask any questions, you don't have any understanding of your body. How it works, the history of it, you know, problems you've had in the past, how much less effective can the doctor be, right? I mean, they can't be because you're not communicating with them and you're not bringing what you know to the table.

Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. And I think this is something I see in the coaching with our clients, especially because most of our clients come into our program with— they have an expertise or they have a knowledge and a wisdom that they want to put into a program to be able to leverage that through podcasting and make money with it. But, and they might have sold, you know, some in the past, like they're not new, new, new, but they also don't know the language of how to speak. And so strategic alliances is a big part of what we do. Well, in order to have a fruitful conversation with someone on a business development side of things, or does this make sense for us to work together, they have to know somewhat the language to be able to speak that and have that fruitful conversation. And that's something I'm noticing a little bit more recently. Ah, okay, so they don't know that term, or they don't know this strategy, or they have questions about this. And so we as entrepreneurs who working with other people, need to be aware and cognizant of making note of the questions that our clients are asking us because the clues are there, right? We can go in and we can adjust and maybe create. We have done that. We've created extra, extra trainings, extra boot camps, extra, uh, you know, calls, coaching calls to fill in the gap that we're recognizing is there that we would not have known or predicted that we would have seen when we first started. And that's the benefit of actually working with real people, whether you're building an 8 or 9-figure business, or if you're building a 6 or 7-figure business, when you're working with clients, take note of the questions they ask you because the clues are there.

Yes. And I would add to that, that whether you want it to or not, the money is always part of that question. And, you know, I find that whether it's, it's you're dealing with vendors or customers or even employees, understanding the money flow, uh, like, you know, you're dealing with a vendor, how do they make money? Do you understand how, how they're making money and, and what value they're, they're bringing to you? So I don't think you can get away from the money conversation. It's, it's pervasive in everything.

It's such a great point. I hadn't thought of that before. Understanding what your vendors or outside connections and how it is that they operate and what their business models are or how they're making their money, so to speak, is advantageous for you to have knowledge of. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great point.

Absolutely. Well, Cheryl, how do people find out more about IconMaker and get in touch with you?

Yeah, iconmakerlive.com is the best place to go to find out about our next workshop. And you can find me, I'm active on Facebook. We have a Facebook group there called Podcast Monetization. And I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. So you can always send me a DM on any of those, but iconmakerlive.com is a great place to start. Or you can go to my personal website at cherylplouffe.com.

I love it. Thank you very much for your insight and your time today.

This has been a joy. Thank you so much, Christian, for having me on.

Absolutely. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, rate, subscribe the podcast, share the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, message us and tell us what you'd like to hear. Until then, ta-ta for now.

And that's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers. And don't forget, Profit First for Creatives is live via Amazon. Link below.