Building Communities Around Brands: Berlyn Komar

Hey creative, are you ready to discuss profits, the money, the ways to make it happen? The Profitable Creative Podcast is for you, the creative, how you define it. Videographers, photographers, entrepreneurs, marketing agencies, you get it. CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs, and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only show on the interweb where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Kansas City, Missouri. That's Kansas City, Missouri, not Kansas City, Kansas. Missouri is where the gangsters are. Kansas is where all the wealthy people live. I have been there and it's lovely, gangsters and all. Joining me today, Berlin Komar of Planted Marketing. Berlin, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm actually from Kansas, Kansas City, so it's cool.

Which side?

So I grew up in Kansas and then I lived on the Missouri side for a couple— well, actually, no, that's a lie. I lived on the Kansas side for a couple years. In Overland Park.

How would you describe the difference between Kansas City, Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri?

Yeah, I mean, the Kansas side is really just the suburb side, and then the Missouri side is like the more urban side.

Yeah, that's basically what I said. Anyway, um, I am fascinated to learn about planted marketing, um, because I I've had this conversation with marketing agencies over the last few months, and some of them are very resistant to niching. They, they want to continue to be what I would call generalists. So I'm very curious, your experience and why you chose to have a niche of organic products.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't say that is specifically our niche is like organic products, but I would say I'm on both sides of that argument. Like, I believe that we all need to have like some specialty, but we don't really need to put ourselves in a hole for that. So like, um, at Plant and Marketing, we specialize in organic content marketing and we do do all the things. So like social, emails, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You were speaking, see, I just looked at it and thought that you were talking about organic products. You were saying organic as in like organic traffic.

Yeah. Yes.

Okay. So I'm, I'm completely wrong. So you don't have a niche.

Um, so yeah. So in terms of like our services, no, we do all the things, but we specialize in, um, like the strategy of organic content marketing and like building a community around brands. So like that would be what our focus is. And on top of that, like I love to work with more purpose-driven brands. So people in like, not a specific industry, but just like a specific, you know, what their, their mission is, I guess.

Yeah. I mean, that— okay, so let's go back to the origin story. You didn't start out with Planted Marketing. Where did you start out in this industry?

Yeah, so I kind of did. I don't exactly have agency experience. My background is in photography. And so I started working with a lot of small businesses and more of a contractor basis. And then small businesses need very few people to wear lots of hats. So they asked me to do this and this and this, and that just kind of kept expanding like my marketing, um, experience. And so I really enjoyed doing all of those things. So that's when I just kind of dove in more, taught myself everything. And then 5 years ago I was able to go full time. And then I launched my agency shortly after that and have been doing that ever since.

It's interesting. I, I, this is going to be completely unrelated and you're going to be, why is he saying this? I, I have a friend that's in the IT business, right? And he, his dad started it. And back in the days before IT services was really a thing, I think he started with like phone systems. Um, and he was successful in that and And as he was out there installing and maintaining these phone systems, he'd get, you know, questions of like, well, can you fix this computer? And, and that's how he got into the computer space. But it kind of goes to my point of like, one, it's relationship driven. Like if you, if you were a trusted provider of whatever, people tend to ask you Hey, can you do this? Right? I mean, that sounds like what that happened with you. And that certainly happened with us. Where, where we ran into a problem with it at core was we said yes too much. And then we ended up with too many services for too many different types of customers or clients. So how do you, how do you balance that with, with your business?

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny that you say that. I feel like that's kind of like everybody's journey, right? When we get started, we say yes to all the things because it sounds fun and exciting. And we're also still kind of learning what we want to do. And, and then you get to a point where you're like, okay, I'm actually only really good at this, or I only really like doing this. So I'm going to kind of focus back again. And that goes back to your first question, like, what's your niche? What are you focusing on? Um, so I think that's— it's organic foods.

I thought we already decided that.

What'd you say?

It's organic foods.

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think that's funny. I think it's just the natural evolution of being in business.

Yeah. Yes. Uh, I guess there's, there's obviously a hard line, like when, when you get ask to do small appliance repair, that, that means you probably crossed that line. But it can be insidious because, like, we at one point, we were, we were an accounting firm and we were primarily working with small businesses, but then we also, we acquired a company and that did audits for like governmental agencies, cities and nonprofits. And that's a completely different animal, completely different accounting skill set. And then I made some voluntary choices to go into verticals that were adjacent to accounting, like insurance. And man, you can spread yourself very thin very quickly, although, I mean, Here's the thing is, is if you had an ideal client that was like they needed all the things and you could do all the things, that, that would be great. But you just, you need only that. Like if you're, if you're, you can't have more of some and less of another because then, then you get your processes, your procedures, your people like everything gets so convoluted, you, you can't— you reach a limit of growth. And that's what happened to us.

Yeah.

So do you like organic food?

Um, uh, yeah, yeah, I don't have a thing against it.

Okay, but it's not like your preference?

Yeah, I think, you know, I think all food has its thing. And when you're at the grocery store and it's like, why would I spend 5 more dollars for this apple when I could spend $1. That's what gets me.

Yeah, it is expensive. I agree. I'm thinking about starting a farm, but then you start thinking about that and then it's like, well, you know, you live in a climate. You're in California, right? Well, you get a little more flexibility, but like most places you're in a climate and then you can only grow that kind of food. Like you can't grow apples For instance, here, uh, in Oklahoma, that wouldn't work. I'm sorry, I'm rambling. Um, what, what, why did you land on organic traffic and the, the, like the community element? What, what, why'd you pick that?

Yeah, I kind of fell into this just because I really gravitated just towards content marketing, just like the whole, um, system of that. And that just kind of leads into organic marketing and just like building a community. So I just love to create like these educational pieces that kind of keep the audience involved and like keep your brand top of mind. And my brain just kind of naturally works that way. So the rest just kind of fell into place.

How do you see the current— I was just reading a post on LinkedIn, I think yesterday, about where AI was sourcing answers and how Google, like blog posts, We're way down the list now. Like, they're going to, uh, is it Quora? Quora? Uh, and Reddit and, and some of these other places where they— which, which to me, that's the last place you want to go to get authoritative answers on anything. Like, there's just a bunch of— I mean, not to say there's not good content in there, but there's a whole lot of unvetted content in there. Yeah. So how are, how are you dealing with those, the changing landscape there?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. And I was just listening to your episode a few episodes ago about AI and SEO. And it's such a great conversation and definitely something that like content marketers or just SEO blogs in general have been struggling with for a few years as like Google kind of has had their, um, their snippets where they're already pulling content and now they're doing their AI results. And now we're just competing with AI in general and it's definitely a challenge. And I liked what the guy said on your last episode is that content's more for like bottom or middle of funnel. So you're really speaking more towards people who are like ready to take that next step. Mm-hmm. What I also have noticed in AI lately, and so hopefully maybe we're kind of coming back around, is that it is, referring out to other people. I was asking it something the other day and it just would not gimme the answer. It kept saying, refer to a professional. And I'm like, no, that's, I'm trying to ask you. So then finally I was like, okay, tell me, gimme a list of professionals. And so it gave me a whole list of people in my area. And like, that's what we wanna start focusing more on our website is like to be on that list, to have good content that AI is pulling from. 'Cause I, I do see traffic like on Google Analytics coming from different AI resources. So I think maybe it's starting to turn a little bit, and, um, now we just need more and more and more content.

That's, that's just, that, that just blows me away because I, I mean, I, I think at the end of the day, like, everything that needs to be said has already been said. It's out there somewhere. Like, I mean, and the idea that we have to have more is, is kind of crazy to me, but you know, I, the more I work with artificial intelli— let me rephrase. The more I work with large language models, the less I am concerned about a Terminator scenario. Because it's like, I mean, it's frustrating at times. Like you tell it, only give me valid links as answers. And then you click the link and it's a 404 error. And I'm like, I thought I said, but maybe I wasn't explicit enough. Anyway, so this community aspect is actually what intrigues me because I think, you know, in our space where we're dealing with creative entrepreneurs, so a lot of marketing agencies, a lot of videographers, a lot of content creators, they're is a, I think, a need for connection professionally that people are not getting. So, like, there may be a professional connection, but there's a lot of solopreneurs, hustlers, side hustlers, and like, there's a lot of people that aren't really serious about the business aspect of it. They're just more into the the craft of it. The people that are like serious about their business, like they want to do this and make money at it, they're finding a hard time connecting with people. We're actually going to do our first live event here in Oklahoma City in October of this year as kind of an experiment. We're going to do a 2-day workshop Um, but we're also looking at going to, uh, kind of piggyback, uh, our, our clients and our influencers that are in like Atlanta or LA or some of these larger markets, um, and kind of try and connect with their connections. Um, so I'm curious, like, when you look at creating community around a brand, is that Is that solely virtual or do you incorporate live into it?

Yeah, that sounds like a really fun event also. Um, but yeah, definitely both. So if in-person things are a possibility, I love bringing that in as well. Um, like there's, this is not a client of mine, but there is a sunglasses brand that's local and they do like community walks once a month. And so like, I think that's a really cool example of that is just kind of bringing in the community. It's not like a sales thing. Yes, it's put on by them, so you get familiar with their brand, but it's more just for bringing people together and then doing an event or doing an activity where you would use their product, the sunglasses. So I think things like that are really cool. I think it's also very easy to do digitally, and it's essentially just creating really strong connections. Like, you want the type of customer that refers you, that praises you, that is obsessed with your product, that tags you. That's the kind of community that I'm trying to build for my clients.

So when you look at all of the different ways you can connect and communicate, it is— and, and you, you, you know, you can't, unless you're Coca-Cola, build, you know, on all of those channels. How do you, how do you figure out where people are talking about a company or a brand? Like How do you do that research?

Yeah, so, well, the two things that you mentioned earlier, Quora and Reddit, those are great forums. And in that scenario, people are talking about what they want and it's not more like, you know, you need facts, you want opinions. So those are great resources for that. Just Googling different things, Googling your keywords, Googling your brand name, finding out what people are saying, Googling like your competitors and seeing what people are saying about them. I love diving into like competitor reviews and you can really see what people love or not love about something and use that for your business. I think the research part is obviously super important and then just like the continual social listening. So always listening to what people, like searching for your own brand name, what are people saying? Obviously reading comments, messages. A lot of people forget to check their messages. People use that as their like primary source for customer service these days, so it's really important to stay involved with what people, um, or how people are interacting with you. Checking the message requests folder, don't let things get hidden or buried in there. Um, and it takes a lot of work. So like the customer, um, engagement part or like community management side of things is— could be a full-time job on its own.

Yeah, I mean, like, I, I recently went and created a Substack channel. I'm not sure why. Um, And I've put a few pieces of content on there and I intend to do it more robustly. But one of the people that I had followed, who's a client of mine actually, who had recently started his Substack, he had started a chat feature and like he had messaged me, right? And I didn't catch it for like a week because I wasn't in Substack and I didn't see the little icon. And I really don't like turning on all of the notifications because because then I can't get anything done because I'm only, you know, getting pop-ups everywhere. Um, so how do you, how do you combat that? I mean, is it, is it like outsourcing it to somebody to let them manage those channels?

Yeah, that's a great question. I recommend like having it— if you're still like DIYing and managing it all yourself, like have a period of time built in every day. Like the first thing I do is check my emails, check my communities, check my messages, and then like that could be it for the day. So I sort through all of that. And then the next morning, if something comes in in the middle of the day, I'll get to it the next morning. So just have it built into your routine where you're going in every day. Or if you're ready to, if you have the resources to outsource, I think that's really great too, especially if your brand is growing and you're getting lots of comments, lots of messages. I do have a client where I'm like only doing community management for them. So just reading through all the comments and replying. Um, so yeah, I think either have it built into your routine, or if you're like getting flooded with stuff, it's definitely time to hire somebody.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. So I'm going to pivot here a minute. You said you started your agency 5 years ago, about? Mm-hmm. Okay. What, what was the, what was the first thing that you learned that you didn't know? Like, oh, uh, as, as a business owner, I have to know this. And I'm like, I didn't know that.

Well, speaking on like the business end of things, literally all of it, it's all like not my thing, right? So the taxes, whatever, hiring in California, like the contractor employee line is very tricky. Um, I still don't, I still don't know anything. Like I hired an accountant pretty right away and then I was like, okay, just do the things we need to do. I don't know.

Yeah.

Hopefully she's right.

Yeah. It, yeah. The, the compliance angle for a business is usually a shock. Um, and it's not just taxes. It's, you know, depending upon your business, it can be business licensing. You know, of course, some states are worse than others. California is arguably the worst. But, you know, New York is a close second. But, you know, the, just the, what's the word I'm looking for? Like table stakes, like, like you have to do this whether you make any money, don't make any money, don't really have a business. I just, filed a business and I'm starting and like I haven't had any revenue yet. It's kind of crazy in a lot of ways. What was your first financial hurdle that you weren't expecting going into business?

Yeah. I would say, again, like going back to the tax, I created an LLC, which was by recommendation Maybe not the best thing to do first year. Um, so that obviously was a hurdle. In California, that's an $800 annual fee. And then, yeah, I just, that was shocking, I suppose.

And then did you, did you do that based upon a recommendation of a colleague or what?

What? Um, well, I was just concerned with like working with big brands and I've never had an issue. So it's really just kind of like in case something happens, but like I'm representing people and their businesses and their brands and like, what if something goes wrong? Cause I'm, I'm the one that's creating their like digital face. So that just kind of made me nervous. Um, like I wanted to have a layer of protection and I mean, I guess that's still fine. Um, but like financially it was like, oh, that's okay. Cool.

Yeah. No, I think it's solid advice. I do find that people. Incorporate or form LLCs— LLCs more likely than corporations anymore— but without really knowing why they're doing it. I mean, at least you knew that you wanted some level of legal protection. A lot of people do it and they don't really understand. They just heard that they need one because other people have one, and, and sometimes it, it's premature. It's never really a bad thing. I mean, other than, you know, it might cause you headache or money. I mean, you're not hurting yourself by forming it. But, you know, like, I'm still learning and I've been doing this business for 28 years. I'm now into the intellectual property end of things, which you're probably much more familiar with, but I'm new to this creation space. So I, I, um, when I started the podcast, right, I did a search for The Profitable Creative and couldn't find anything. Evidently I didn't look far enough, uh, because when I started, uh, I started in August of last year, and, uh, for some reason, uh, January of this year, maybe because I'd had some intellectual property lawyers on the show, uh, I said, you know, I probably need to protect that trademark. And so I told my lawyer to, to do that, and they said, well, this one's good, this one's already got a filing. And I'm like, really? Okay, when did that happen? Well, it happened in October of last year. I'm like, oh good, we're covered, because I started my show in August. Well, that whole thing gets very convoluted when you, when you start saying when you had— so looking into it, this individual had a URL, they had a domain, uh, that had a website before I had started the podcast. And so, you know, technically she was using it first, and, you know, then she filed a, a trademark application. And, you know, I can protest it. I'll probably lose. I don't want to rebrand everything. I like the brand. She's not using the brand a lot. I mean, she, you know, she has a podcast similarly named, but she hadn't put any content out since January of this year. And so, you know, I'm like, I sent a, a we sent a mutual— what was it called— some kind of mutual agreement, like, we'll both use this name and we won't protest each other's use, right? And I still don't have that resolved. And so, like, we're 4 months into it, and I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen. And it is— I guess what I'm telling you all of this is that Being an entrepreneur is a constant learning process. You just never know it all, that's for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, that's really unfortunate. I've seen that before where, like, people have the name, but they're not doing anything, and you try to reach out, but they're not active, obviously, so they don't see your messages. And yeah, it's very frustrating. What do you think your next step will be?

Well, if she doesn't agree, so, so if she doesn't agree, I hope she's not listening. I'm assuming she's not going to listen. Um, I'm actually going to offer to buy it, um, and license it back to her. So like, you can continue doing what you're doing with it, but let me, let me buy the, the trademark name. Um, because like when you do AI searches and Google searches, ours is the one that comes up. Because hers does not have a lot of traffic. And so it's, it's buried. And that's why I'm like, it's not really, it's more, it's more valuable to me than it is her. Um, at this point, but I'm still new enough in this that I could conceivably just rebrand it.

I don't know.

Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah. That's very tricky. But yeah, from her perspective now, if If people Google the name and you're not, and you're the one coming up first, then it's already a loss for her. She would have to do so much to kind of like combat that.

Well, yeah, and that's the reality is it doesn't really, but if she wants to enforce her trademark, she can. And then I'm in trouble. And so, yeah, that's why I'm always a believer in cooperation rather. I mean, I've paid enough lawyers in my life, not around intellectual property., but you know, if you can cooperate rather than be in conflict, it's always better. Yeah. Okay. So are there any regrets in launching your agency? Any times where you're like, I just wish I could crawl back in the womb and go back and being an employee?

Definitely never want to be an employee again. Um, I know that that's not for me, but, and there's no regrets ever, but there's definitely a lot of times where I'm like, uh, okay, what now? How— like, what's the next step? There— yeah, there's definitely a lot of that, but I would never label it as like regret or, um, anything else.

Okay, excellent. Yeah, what, what, uh— welcome to the ranks of the unemployable. That's what I call entrepreneurs. Um, yeah, I, I'm definitely not employable. I wasn't employable when I was 27 and I started this business, but That's a different story. What would you say is your biggest business challenge at the 5-year mark? Like, you've proven that you can do this, that you're going to succeed where a lot of people fail within 5 years. So what is the thing that is your most pressing problem to solve?

Yeah, I would say it is scaling. So Yeah, I think a lot. I'm like, okay, wow, I've been, I've been doing it 5 years. I'm surviving, but like, I should, I should be at a different point, I feel like. And I've pivoted a lot, obviously, through the years of like who I'm, who my ideal customer is. And now I'm kind of at a point where, um, I just don't know how to talk to my ideal customer, like where to reach them. And like, which is funny because that's literally what I do. I feel like marketing for yourself is always—

Have you thought about hiring somebody?

Yeah, yeah, I should. Yeah, that would be a dream. But yeah, I think like, so I kind of split off my— I, in January of this year, I launched a community for solopreneurs. So by doing that, I really kind of split my two audiences. One is more of established brands who is ready to like invest and commit for a year or two. And then the communities for solopreneurs. So doing that, it's just been kind of harder to reach that audience of more established brands, I guess.

Yeah, it, it, that sounds a little bit like the Pareto principle, which I talk about on here a lot, which, you know, is the, and I hate to repeat myself, but I have to give you context. Are you familiar with the Pareto principle or Pareto? Okay, so, uh, Italian economist back in the 19th century, he did a study in Italy, uh, about land ownership, and he found that 80% of the land was owned by 20% of the people. Um, then it kind of went on the shelf, but it kind of got picked up in, in the 20th century as, as a model of, of human behavior, not unlike a bell curve distribution of IQ and certain things. In that when it has to do with people, there is a tendency for 20% of our activities to generate 80% of our productivity. It's not always exactly that ratio, but it sounds like you had the 20%, the people with established brands, that probably made you more money and were easier to work with, easier to find, maybe easier to scale than the 80% of solopreneurs, which were not. Does that ring true?

Yeah.

Yeah. So you figured it out all on your own.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's been, yeah, I don't know. It's just a challenge and that's okay. That's what I'm—

Is that why you separated? The two like that?

I separated the two because I was working with a lot of people in the beginning who had like a $500 budget. And like the reality is it's a waste of money, it feels like, because there's not a lot that we can do together on that budget. And so I want to work with brands who are ready to invest so that I'm not wasting their money and it's becoming like there's a good effort behind it and it's usable. And so for the solopreneur side, it's just like a small monthly membership. And then I feel like it's a really good investment for them because they don't have to make any other investments and so they can make good use of their money. So that's just kind of what I experienced is there, if we want to make moves, we have to do a lot of stuff, especially in these days where, as you've said before, there's so much content. Everything's already been done. So like, how can we stand out from that?

So this, this solo, I'm curious because we're kind of working through some of similar, similar issues with the, those people that are looking for financial or accounting help. Is the, is, is so, so this is a membership where they have access to each other? Like they can, yeah.

Yeah. So there's different resources. So I'm teaching them how to do their own marketing and then they can obviously, it's a community. So everybody can get feedback from each other. And then there's different ways that I support them as well. So like open forums so they can chat with me instead of trying to Google stuff. We have events and workshops. Office hours, stuff like that.

Do, um, what platform do you use to facilitate that? Circle. Circle. That's not one I've heard. Okay. Do you— is there a reason why you picked that one?

I really like the way that it looks. That's what gets me a lot of time. And just, um, the functionality is great. So I've compared that to like Skool. A lot of people use Skool as well. I just think Skool is ugly, but they're essentially the same.

Okay. Okay. All right. So, and then do you— so you're producing content for that community and then you're doing some like office hour forums where they can Zoom in and ask questions. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the model that we have come up with. We had been on Skool But we move, we use GoHighLevel, and so I don't know what one is baked into theirs, but there's some community software that's baked into that. I don't think it's their software, but maybe it is. Anyway, what I found though was, and I'm curious your experience on this, is like producing the content that people will actually use and engage with versus what they really need to know. Like, it's kind of like you have to sell them what they want rather than what they really need. Have you run into that?

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think what I'm working on and figuring out is basically that. So people know they need to do their own marketing. They know they need to do all these certain things. But then once they get in there, it feels overwhelming, obviously. Like, okay, now I have to do all these things. But like, what's the point? So I think it's just on our end is like figuring out how to make that consumable and like easy to do and just not making it overwhelming. For a while, I was just dropping different like downloads and like kind of workbook things. And then I was like, wow, that probably feels a lot like there's something about this topic and this topic and there's like stuff all over. So now I'm kind of using like the course builder and doing like roadmaps. So if somebody wants to learn about their social, it just like takes them through the process and it starts from the beginning. Um, so they can skip if they are feeling good, they can pause when things start to get above their level and kind of just go on their own. Um, at their own pace. Um, so I'm kind of just breaking everything down by like, um, you know, social, email, SEO, blah blah blah, things like that. So that's kind of what I'm thinking of doing. Um, and then having those one— like the Zoom sessions to kind of help them if they're stuck or like guide them on what I think would be best for them. Um, but yeah, how do you think you're gonna structure yours?

Well, I started unfortunately with what I think they needed. And that did not get a lot of traction. I mean, the problem is that like a lot of business, a lot of entrepreneurship is not fun. And the chances that you're going to want to, to like to do all of them are nil. There's going to be stuff about business that you don't want to do and don't like to do. And so you're going to avoid it. Right. And, and so, um, I, I did the original content based upon what I'm like, these are, this is blocking and tackling 101. This is what you have to do. And I, it's, I, I need to get feedback from the community on, okay, what do you want? Like, I mean, because that at the end of the day is what they're going to use, whether or not I'm right or you're right. And like, you know, these are things that you need to do to be successful. They're not going to do it if they don't want to do it and if they're not interested in it. So, which is, which is kind of part of being in that space. Like at some point they're going to figure it out. Like, oh, I don't want to do this shit, but I have to, it has to be done. So I'm going to hire Berlin to do it and I'm going to put some money to it. Right. And that, and that's, that's to me the, the distinction and it's, it's really, I hate to say this because I don't want to piss anybody off, but It's really, are you going to be serious about this being a business or is this just a hobby or a permanent side hustle? And, you know, whatever it does, it does.

Yeah, I think that's really— somebody asked me that the other day, like, how do you know when it's time to give up? I'm like, well, if that thought crosses your mind, then maybe this— maybe it's not time, but like maybe it's time to really think about like, is this something you want to do. Because for me, it's never crossed my mind. I've thought about, okay, do I get a part-time job or something to support? But it's never been like, okay, time to end it. And I think that's what really makes or breaks a lot of businesses is once you start getting into it and you're like, oh my God, I have to do all these things. It's not just like this little hobby that I wanted to do, or it wasn't just this passion project that I'm I want to bring to life, I have to like do all the things.

Yeah. And, you know, there's a lot of great things about the world we live in. And there are— you can take something like lovable.dev and come up with a passion project and not have to be a coder or, you know, and all of the LLMs that are out there that can assist you in starting a business. And you can make money at it. But the question is, is it going to be your passion? I love that word passion because not only because I use it in my book and in the podcast, but that to me is the distinction of an entrepreneur. If you're motivated by passion— Todd Henry, when I interviewed him for the book and I interviewed him on this podcast, His book that he had written was The Accidental Creative, and then the most recent one is— it slipped my mind. I'll think of it in a second. I'm old. The Greek word for passion which I'm not going to try and pronounce, actually in Greek means suffering. And Todd said that if you are not willing to suffer for something, it is not your passion. And not to say that anybody signs up to suffer or that you're necessarily going to suffer, but chances are you are. I mean, if it's something that you really want, and that to me is a distinction of an entrepreneur. If they don't have a passion for it, it's, you know, it's got its limitations.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Um, and yeah, Brave Habit.

What?

The Brave Habit.

Yeah, I love the book.

Thank you. Told you it'd come out.

Um, yeah, definitely really interesting. I think there's, yeah, just so much that we don't really even realize. Like, we were talking about taxes and stuff, like, okay, I knew I had to pay taxes, but like like, wow, this is complicated. We're like, I know I need to, you know, you need to hire a lawyer, but okay, that's unfortunate. And there's just so many things that now I'm personally getting into the sales side of things, which is not me at all. So I'm just like, oh, now I have to do this because the first few years were really easy for me. And now I'm in that suffering stage where I have to make the next growth thing, which is sales and figuring out what that looks like for me. And yeah, there's always something. I always say, or I've heard a lot too, that owning a business is the biggest personal development journey you'll ever go on, and it just throws you into it. And whether you like it or not, you have to do a lot of things you don't like.

100%. And I'll I won't spoil the ending for you. When you get older and more successful, you're going to realize that the company's limitations are your own personal limitations. And I'm not talking about skill set necessarily, but like a lot of mindset issues. And that's a whole— as a matter of fact, I was interviewing somebody for my other podcast earlier today. And I said, you know, that, that period of personal growth, where I, the company had reached my limit, it could not grow past where I was. And that, that period of growing myself so that the company could grow was harder than starting the business, hands down. And you know, like looking backwards, would I have made that choice? I don't know. Like if I knew that was, that was what was on the horizon, I don't know. But I'm messed up in the head and you're not. So that, you know, that's fine. I have one last set of questions. How did you, how do you determine pricing? I love talking about pricing. It's a fascinating subject for me. So how do you approach pricing? You don't have to share any details, but like, of course you can if you want, but yeah, that's a great question.

And I would love to hear everybody's answers because I don't think any of us really know, especially like the service field where you don't have like an actual product that is costing you money to figure out stuff. Um, but what I say is, um, I figure out like the value and the experience level and like the work behind it that we put in. When agencies say they have a strategy or just like even individuals who have a strategy, like everybody's strategy looks different too. So like how much work we put into our strategy, what that looks like, the experience level of everybody on the team, how many people are involved in that. And then, yeah, I don't know. I think I finally— I'm 5 years in. I finally have like a good system. I actually just built like like a calculator too to help me because every time I send a proposal, I'm like, uh, I don't know. And like I have to do the math and it takes me hours. And, um, sometimes I also mess up. I almost sent a proposal that was like, um, only included a week's worth of stuff and I caught it right before I sent it. I was like, oh, that would have been a really bad deal. Yeah. Yeah. So I created this calendar on like, uh, Google Sheets. That kind of like I can put in the number of social posts and the number of this and this and this and this that we're doing and kind of like get an average and then kind of feel, see how that feels and then move forward from there.

All right. Do you ever raise it from that? Like, you know, you get your estimate and you say, oh no, they'll pay a lot more than this.

Um, you know, I actually usually decrease it. I see you.

Oh no.

Okay. All right. I see the amount and I'm like, okay, that's a lot, but not like in a good way. I don't know. I'm still working on it. I think I always like to— it depends on like the brand as well. If people are just starting out, I love working with them. So I take that into consideration. I don't know. There's just so many things to consider. Do you have any tips? What are your thoughts?

Well, when I send you the book, I have a whole chapter on value pricing. Cool. Which I would recommend reading. There's two other books that I really found helpful on the subject. One is specifically on pricing. It's called The Confessions of a Pricing Man, and it was written back in the '80s. And this guy was some kind of European management consultant, PhD type guy. And he did all of this research for these big companies around pricing. And he basically created the industry back in the '70s around, you know, pricing consultancy. And there's a lot of really dry information in it, and because he's an academic, but the concepts in it are fascinating to me. Like, the, the— and the, and the research stories were also fascinating, like how you could package things and tweak things. I think, I think the one that stood out to me was like back when newspapers were actually printed, um, he worked with the Wall Street Journal, and Wall Street Journal was launching their digital edition, and he, he worked with the pricing on the the digital version and the print version such that the pricing, relative pricing, was so compelling that people all signed up for both. But he did that with anchor pricing. Like, how he did that, I found fascinating. The second book I'd recommend is Alchemy by Rory Sutherland. Have you read that one?

Um, no, but it sounds familiar. It might be on my list.

It's, it's, uh, so, so he's, uh, a director at, uh, Ogilvy, and, um, he— it really is more of a treatise on the limitation of the age of reason, uh, which he goes back to, you know, the Renaissance, um, but how it's been accelerated with, and, and You know, I read this book 5 years ago and before LLMs, and it's, it's more fascinating now looking at it because he basically is talking about how marketing in general and pricing secondarily is, is, is predictably unpredictable because people are unpredictable and trying to reason why they're going to do something in marketing or sales doesn't work. Like, you, you can't, you know, maybe on a one-on-one scale, like, if I really know Berlin and I know what makes her tick, I, I, I can zero in on what works for you. But if I'm talking about 100 of you out there, or 1,000, or a million, there's no way. I mean, I just make an educated guess and go. That's why he calls it alchemy. Like, we're not sure why it works, it just works.

So yeah, cool. I'll, um, look up both of those, and I'm excited to read your book too.

Thank you. You are welcome. Berlin, how do people find out more about organic foods and how you market them?

Um, you can find me, um, on plantedmarketing.com, and you can learn all about my services. All my social links are there. I have different free downloads and workshops that I list there, and you can learn more about the greenhouse if you are on a DIY journey as well.

See, you understand my confusion because all of those things point to— now I understand why you chose them, but like, you know, okay.

Yeah.

Listeners will have those notes in the, uh, those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please, uh, subscribe to the podcast. Rate the podcast, share the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, please shoot us a text and we'll get rid of Berlin. Until then, ta-ta for now.