Building the Film Industry in Oklahoma: Matt Payne

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Boynton Beach, Florida. Uh, no idea where that is. I'm assuming it's by the water. Joining me today, the eponymous Matt Payne of Matt Payne Media. I've been wanting to use that word for a while, but I could never work it in. But today it works. So, Matt, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Excited to be here.

So your journey is a fascinating one. I normally give people like 2 minutes to summarize, but you might get 5 minutes. So tell us, tell us for the listeners who don't know who Matt Payne is, who Matt Payne is.

Sure. So, Matt, my name is Matt Payne, and I, I've worked in entertainment for 25+ years. In the last 5, I kind of moved into a business executive role, but for most of my life, I've been a creative. I, my journey started here in Oklahoma in the year 2000 as a failing student at the University of Oklahoma when at Oklahoma City Community College, there was a gentleman named Gray Frederickson who started a basically movie camp for adults one summer. And I took this movie camp that was aimed at like really training workforce and realized like, hey, I could work in film. And that changed my life and found a purpose. And with that purpose kind of went back to OU, was presidential honor roll and became Gray's intern. Intern, and life sort of really started taking off. But what I ultimately wanted to do is I wanted to tell stories, you know, and I wanted to work in an environment where I was around people telling stories. So I moved to Los Angeles right after college, and I started off on a show called 24, if you remember that show.

Oh, big fan.

Jack. Yeah, Jack Bauer. So I was— I got lucky to get a set PA job. Uh, the day I arrived in Los Angeles, I went to visit a family friend. He's— I was asking for advice and he offered me a job, uh, which worked great. And, and that was like the third episode ever of the show, and it turned into this, you know, really revolutionary show in so many ways. But, um, got to know the writers of that show pretty well, um, and they, uh, encouraged me to work at an agency so I could learn the kind of business side of of the entertainment industry, which I think is really important. So I worked at a company called Endeavor and then went to work for a showrunner of a show called Without a Trace, which was a CBS show. So I spent several years on that show where I ultimately had the opportunity to get promoted to a writer. All that whole time I was kind of around the writing staff and then went on to write shows, a show called Defenders with Jim Belushi and Jerry O'Connell, a show called Vegas with Dennis Quaid and Michael Chiklis about The Origin of Las Vegas, and then a lesser-known show on TNT called Memphis Beat starring Jason Lee and Alfre Woodard. But so I did all that, and then at the same time, kind of when these shows would get canceled, I'd have this side hustle of travel journalism. So I was always passionate about travel, always trying to find ways to see the world. I love how travel sort of influenced the way I thought about writing. And so I had this unique opportunity to write for the Washington Times doing travel, and what that essentially meant was I would say, hey, do you have any anywhere that's looking for a travel writer. And this woman would call me and say, "Yeah, do you want to go to Malaysia next week?" And I would hop on a plane and go to Malaysia. And I did that enough times that I had this really interesting moment of— and I became really passionate about it. And I had this moment where I realized I could either stay and write TV shows where I'd make a pretty predictable and reasonable living, kind of trying to figure out how we're going to solve the case this week, or I could, I could spend my life traveling around the world, going to really cool places and meeting really cool people and eating cool food. And Anthony Bourdain was my hero. And so I thought, hey, let's do that. The decision I had to make, though, was, as it turns out, and you may tell me different, Christian, but I don't think you can make a whole lot of money being a travel journalist. There's probably not a ton of money in it. And so we moved back to Oklahoma. Moved back to Oklahoma in 2015, which is really the life-changing thing for me. And my media career really began. So when I got back here, I started teaching at Oklahoma City University. Got to really fell in love with like watching students tap into their own potential. And at the same time, I started making documentary films for our PBS affiliate, OETA, here. And there were kind of two lessons that happened. The first was One, in making small documentaries with one other person, I was able to tell really cost-effective stories, frankly, significantly better stories than I was able to do in Los Angeles. So even though there I had 10 writers and a $3 million an episode budget, here for whatever my overhead was, I was able to make things that I thought were really powerful, which was enlightening. And then teaching what I realized kind of macro in Oklahoma, was that we had all these young kids that I saw myself in that were leaving. They come to me and they, you know, capstone, and the really smart ones, particularly the really entrepreneurial ones, would come and say, "Do I have to stay here?" And I, you know, I'd been in LA for 15 years getting the shit kicked out of me. I'm like, "I wish you could." You know, they wanted to be with their family. They wanted to be in the state that they loved. The city's on the rise. They like dead center film festival and all this. But I'd say, "No, you got to move to Atlanta or you got to move to LA." So I did all that for and continued to do a lot of photography. Then I expanded into photography with my travel journalism. So I had this like Indiana Jones life where I was kind of working at Oklahoma City University, had my college office, and then I'd get on a plane and go to the Galápagos Islands and take pictures and hang out with wild people all around the world. And then I'd come back and teach and off I go again. But then there was this last kind of thing that happened, um, was, you know, over the course of time, like I'd learned how to do all these different types of media, um, photography, documentaries, screenplay writing, journalism, but I had never, I didn't know much about business at all. Um, and I realized like, if I'm going to be successful, I've got to learn how to like actually market myself as a product, uh, and start thinking like a businessman. So I had a very close friend of mine, this guy named Christian Kennedy, and he was an oil and gas guy looking to diversify into some different sectors. Really passionate about Oklahoma City. And he wanted to invest in media. And we started talking right before COVID And he said, how can we grow the film industry in Oklahoma? And at this point, I was really involved in DeadCenter, all the teaching. And, you know, I think what he expected me to say was, we should, like, maybe you could fund my film, you know, fund a passion project. But what he What we landed on was like, that really ultimately doesn't benefit Oklahoma. What would change the Oklahoma landscape here, uh, would be to invest in infrastructure, and that means sound stages. So again, knowing nothing about business, I partnered up with an actress named Rachel Cannon who just moved back. She knew a little more about business, um, and we sat down with Christian. He said, look, if you can find something to repurpose, I'll fund it. If repurposing the soundstage is all funded, but I need to know kind of what the plan is. And so in kind of looking at the landscape here, we knew we needed an incentive. We knew we needed a workforce. We knew we had these component parts. Killers of the Flower Moon was coming to Oklahoma. So we knew there was going to be this huge economic impact with that film that we were going to see. And Oklahoma City Community College, if you'll remember, I've talked about that in my opening, had turned into from this little summer film camp into a top 25 film school in the country. It's the only community college-based film program in that top 25 with millions and millions of dollars in equipment investments, unbelievable program. So we had these two things. And so we started looking at, hey, what could be converted because the cost of soundstages is a lot of money, right? And so we looked all around the state at different warehouses and kind of empty grocery stores and things. And there was nothing where the economics made sense. However, Oklahoma City had just built a new arena— sorry, a new convention center south of Paycom, and the old convention center was going to get locked up. There was no idea what they were going to do with it. It's a huge footprint on a very, very valuable piece of property in the center. The central plant for the city was underneath it, right? So they couldn't tear it down. And so we looked at it and said, hey, this could be a movie studio. And like, Then the next day, Rudy Gobert got COVID at a Thunder game, and the world kind of went into panic. And Mayor David Holt was— we talked to him about it. He's like, yeah, if you can figure out how to make this thing work, the city will work with you. So, you know, summing it up, we were able to do that, turned it into a soundstage, leveraged the economic projections of the soundstage to then increase the incentive at the state from $8 million to $30 million. And with that money and the workforce that had been developed through Oklahoma City Community College, mostly, we were able to bring Tulsa King and Twisters to Oklahoma. And along the way started an intern program that we put about 100 kids through it, spun that up into a creative agency. We work with all kinds of really cool organizations all across Oklahoma. And then we, We also began investing in high school kids. So we had access to semester funds and had the unique opportunity to invest that money in Oklahoma City Public Schools. So we have 6 different, we have a program called Scissortail Studios with more than 1,000 kids in it that are in 6 different urban core schools. So we're training kids starting in 9th grade in some of our most underserved communities are thinking about film as a viable profession, starting at about age 14. 14. And rather than thinking they have to move to Los Angeles like I did, they just have to go to Oklahoma City Community College, which for the most part can be paid for. And then they can work in our film industry. So that's kind of my backstory. And then the last piece is less exciting. Having just come back from an impromptu Thunder finals game in Indiana, the bad news was they need a new arena.. And so the only footprint in Oklahoma City that worked was, was our building. And so since it's been, uh, we've moved out and so we've kind of lost that opportunity, but I think we've built enough traction. We're pretty close to hitting a critical mass here where the industry will, will thrive anyway. And I'm, uh, in the process of redefining my role in it.

Uh, that's, that is a very interesting life story so far. Um, but you're young, you'll, you'll, you have more to put, more to put down. Um, do you, do you see Oklahoma City, uh, building a soundstage?

Somebody?

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Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are other sound stages. So the Cherokee Nation has a really impressive campus they use mostly for their own production, but that's in Owasso. And then Richard and Amy Jaynes have Filmmakers Ranch out in Spencer, which is really impressive. And he, you know, Richard's talked about building soundstages there. And, and, you know, we've, we've talked about like other ways you can get into soundstages, you know, that the footprint of that Cox Convention Center was so massive. And they're really, you know, they're capital, they're capital heavy upfront. I mean, it's a lot of money upfront to get those things up and running.

And it's a real estate play of sorts. I mean,— you're creating a rental.

It's, it's 100% real estate. It's just a very specialized form of commercial real estate. Yeah. Um, but you know, it's a critical part in, in so many ways of making film work. So we're, you know, visiting still with the city about ways that we might be able to get into some other kind of partnership. Um, but those conversations are early. Um, but I do believe it's really necessary. I've got a partner named Hagen Hunter who's an amazing stage operator who's chomping at the bit to get back into it. And, you know, there's certainly a lot of excitement around film, so we're hoping to be able to keep going in some fashion.

So I want to go back to a statement you made, like you said you needed to learn the business aspect of it, and you and I have had conversations about your financial ignorance. I'm going to share the story. If you don't want it, we can edit it out, but When we first met, um, uh, virtually, uh, you, you admitted that when you heard the statement P&L, you didn't know if it was P and L or P in L, and you had to go look, look that up, uh, which I said, that's perfect, that needs to be our next koozie, uh, because that, that just cracked me up as an accountant. I never even thought like someone would not know what that— I mean, you know, I get it. So, but I think it spoke to your lack of financial education. So do you, do you feel now going through the experiences that you have that you have a better, better understanding of the money side of things?

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's no question. I mean, we, we had to learn it. You know, um, we were given the opportunity, uh, like we had to really jump at this opportunity to get the Cox Center. Like, at first it was like, it was more romantic, you know, like, and I, I always felt, I felt limited throughout my life, um, not knowing much about business, um, you know, they're just like in conversations, but you know, when it turns to money, like, I just kind of be quiet and back out. Like, I thought of myself as a creative and a guy with wanderlust. I just don't want to think about it. I regret that a ton. But, but yeah, as, as we got into it, like, I'm part of the reason why I love travel writing. I like storytelling is I like learning. And I like learning anything once I understand why it's important. And suddenly we were like, okay, well, here's the amount of square footage we have. If we rent it for X dollars, you're gonna make X amount of money. And like, suddenly you're like, well, shit, like, that would change my life, you know. And, and, and at the same time, by— if we could make that business work, you have the sort of the success that comes with taking over a piece of real estate like that makes doing creative stuff easier. And where the shift really began to happen for me was like, as I began to understand business more and more, I mean, I went through an Executive Academy MBA program at this point, you know, like, I mean, I feel as comfortable confident about it. I still have insecurities around it, but you realize like having financial acumen actually is the most creatively empowering thing that you can do. Yeah, because it, because it gives you control and you understand the sandbox you're playing in and the resources at hand. And once you have like a firm understanding of what those things are, you can make a product. You're, you're more intentional about the product you make. And then the other side of it is the sales part, you know, and like really like a big thing that changed for me, you know, and I think so many artists think about their art first, you know, like no one is thinking about the value proposition of like, okay, this guy's going to give me $5,000 for this painting. What does he expect to get out of that $5,000? Like, he worked really hard for it, right? What are we exchanging here? And artists, for me and many, it's just like, well, I just want to make this thing or I just want to tell this story or take this picture. And suddenly you're like, okay, what am I going to do with this? How am I going to exchange this for money with somebody so that I can keep doing it? Yes. And that was really empowering. And it shifted, you know, in some ways, you know, I think I got a little over— first co-CEO and then CEO. It's a rewiring of your brain. You know, you're taking, you know, serotonin and dopamine and reallocating it in different categories and sort of shutting off the dreamier part of your brain. It's really hard to be like, okay, shit, are we going to make payroll? And then immediately be like, but here's how we're going to tell this beautiful, powerful story about this. You know, it's hard to do both. But I think I'm learning to thread the needle. And I certainly am happier as a person knowing that Like just having an understanding of finance and business in general, like it, there's a tremendous amount of confidence that comes with it. Um, and it's like anything, I mean, it's, to me it became like, you know, if I was going to Italy, like I would want to learn Italian. I would want to understand the regions and the history and the history of the Medici family and all those things. Um, business is no different. I want to understand it because it's how the world works. Um,, and in understanding that, you can tell better stories.

Yeah, I, I think that's the thing I, I harp on, and I, and I write about in the book, uh, is the freedom that, uh, financial literacy gives you as a creative. Like, there's an aversion to creatives, uh, You know, and I think it stems from that, like, I just want to make what I want to make, and I don't really want to worry about selling it. I mean, that was the exact conversation I had with my daughter, who is a figurative oil painter, when she started on her career. I was asking those business-type questions, and she's like, I don't know, I don't, I don't care about that. Um, but you know, when she moved to Hollywood, uh, she approached a gallery that said, well, yeah, sure, we'll, we'll show your stuff, uh, but here's the deal, you got to lower your prices by 50%. And she's sitting there like, okay, I'm going to lower my prices by 50% and then you're going to take another 50% for being in the gallery? She goes like, no, absolutely not. But she had the, uh, financial awareness, you know, having me as a father, that she could make that and say, like, I'm not going to do this just for the exposure, for the experience, whatever, um, and, and basically become your employee pumping out stuff for, you know, that I don't really want to make so I can make a little money. And I think that is, is something that all creative entrepreneurs have to address sooner or later. Like, you've got to decide, are you going to be a true artist and potentially starve? Or are you going to embrace what you need to become a business owner and an entrepreneur, which is the financial and the business side of it? And the sad part about it is that I see, and it's like this gallery owner that that, you know, pitched my daughter. There are a ton of people out there very willing to take advantage of creatives, whether that's in music or film or, you know, whatever. Like, because there's a line behind them. Like, you know, if my daughter says no, that's fine because there's some other young budding artists that will say yes and they don't care. They'll just screw you.

Yeah, yeah, it's, um, you're right. And it's, it, what, when you, you bring up, um, gallery artists, I mean, what, or sorry, galleries, you know, um, in LA, you know, you had managers and you had agents and, and labels. And it's funny, I was talking to a pretty successful recording artist, um, a couple months ago, and, and he, he told me that he had made $6-ish million gross. And he had— somebody's like, yeah, I didn't give a shit about business. I didn't think about it. And on his first year, and he netted like $600,000. And that's because it was, here's an agent, here's a manager, here's a lawyer, here's multiple lawyers, here's— and next thing you know, like, I mean, you grow $6 million. It feels big, but it's not. Smarter you get, the more you're, you know, the more you understand business. You're smart no matter what. But yeah, well, I mean, you begin to admit it.

You see that with professional athletes going, going back to the Thunder and Pacers. I mean, like, you know, they get managers and agents and, and, and they don't, you know, they end their career and they don't have— I mean, how many times you read about, you know, an ex-professional athlete, you know, busted or bankrupt, you know? Uh, Mike Tyson is a great example, you know. I mean, like The people that have talent in whatever it is, if you don't understand the business side of it, someone's going to take advantage of you. That's the reality.

Yeah. And like, I, you know, one of the things for me in LA was like, there's this power dynamic around it. And like, when you're starting, it doesn't matter if you're an athlete, what it is, like, you're 100% dependent on whomever that business person is that's going to take 10 to 15% of your money to make all of your decisions. And if you don't have the, the ability to say what— again, back to value— okay, I'm giving you 10%, but like, I need to know why you get that 10% and not this guy and this guy and this guy. And like, I'd like for your 10% to be a million bucks. So how are you going to make me 10? Let's talk through it. And like, if you can approach it that way, as opposed like the way I was with an agent manager— I'm afraid to call them because I don't want to bug them because I don't want to get dropped, you know, like I mean, I think back to like, you know, the agent and manager that I had, like, I was terrified constantly of nagging them. Or like, I remember because I always wrote on procedural shows. And like, if you think about like writing the writing landscape now, like there's not a series that has more than 8 episodes, right? Very rare. So there's a constraint, there's more, so there's more content, but there's way fewer writers. And it's typically like one or two, you know, it's one guy kind of writing the whole thing or what got— where I got a girl. Um, but for me, like, it was like I was writing these cop shows, which I, I, I just did. I took advantage of the opportunities that were in front of me, you know. And the fastest way to write was like the showrunner that I worked for was the guy that hired the writers, and I was the guy that read the scripts that he would then read to make his decision. And so for me, it was like, I, you know, I thought I was gonna write comedy films, you know. And you'd try that for a while, and you see how close you almost get to writing. But again, you're like, Oh my God, please just buy my script. I'll do anything. As opposed to like, here's the thing, I have this product, I need you to sell it. Here's how I want it done. But you approach everything from a place of desperation and that you only do it. Certainly self-confidence has something to do with it, but not understanding the value of the product you create and the power that you hold as the guy creating the item that has the right value. Like you're in the fucking driver's seat.

Yeah, that has nothing to sell if you don't if you don't produce, right?

Like, right. Totally. And so then it just becomes not giving it. And that's hard when you're a sensitive artist and you're dialed into emotions and your product is vulnerability and beauty. So often it's hard to then be like, all right, here's this thing about like how I, you know, dislike this aspect of my childhood. Now I need you to sell it. This is what I expect to make. This is what— yeah, you know, it's Matt Payne, the creative, and Matt Payne Inc. are two different things.

You see that with like The example that comes to me is like recording artists or musicians, and they become popular, and then they're like tied to that. Like their creativity is diminished by their success because everybody that, from the fans that are paying the bill to all the people along the line, the people that are distributing it and producing it and the agent and and all of this, they don't want that money train to go away either, right? And so they're like, no, do more of this. And the artist's like, well, I don't want to do that anymore, right? Like I want to go do, yeah. And so the, I think, and this is what I write about in the book is shifting the paradigm. So thinking not of it as an either or, I either make money or I don't make money is looking at your creativity as the way to make money. Like that, that is the, that is the, the, the leverage. That is the power. And you don't have to use your creativity in a certain way. Like, you know, if you're a visual painter or if you're a videographer or a writer, like that, that's a skill, right? But, but your power is not in that skill. That's just the skill that you learned. Your power is in your creativity. And so how can you use that creativity in a different way that still engages you, that still you want to do, that stokes that passion, but you're not limited to a skill?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's— I mean, that's really well stated. It's that balance as a creative. It is just kind of hard to find it. And they're like, I think about, I mean, if I had leaned into like, I'm going to be a comedy writer, and that's what I set out to do.

Are you funny?

Coming of age, I can be.

This is—

Show me, prove it. I want to hear it. Oh man. When I tell the real Prairie Surf story, it's pretty hilarious. But you didn't write the— No, the— no, that's right. That's right. But if I would have just said, look, this is what I am, and I do think I was good at it. I mean, I got signed by an agent and a manager. It's just hard to sell stuff. But I was like, for me, I think where I found the most success and like how I got to where I am today, the better parts of it was because I was like, okay, shit, I can make money if I write these procedural shows, I'm going to go from making assistant wage to writer's wage. I'm in the WGA, I've got pension, health and welfare. Like I've got— now I've got traction now. And like you've ingrained yourself into this. But then like suddenly at that point, like if you want to do other things, you have to do that and the other thing. Like, and I think a lot of writers and creatives in general are like, well, I got this job working at this creative agency or I've got this job as this, therefore I am this. And like for me, I was always like, Well, I mean, I like this travel writing thing, is cool. I'm going to pursue this. This thing will either make this thing better or obsolete, and this will become the thing. So I'm gonna put my trust in like what I know to be the best product and the most creative product to develop myself. But the thing is, like, kind of like I had to make the decision to be— to take no money as a travel photographer and really writer first. But like, that's how I got to where I am today. Yes. Versus if I would have just been like, I'm a comedy writer, I don't think I ever would have made it in LA. Right. It just wouldn't have worked. So it's just that ability to go like, and I see this so often with creatives, they're like, but I want to be this. And you're like, okay, what? Great. But that doesn't mean you can make a living.

That's correct. Yes.

And yeah. And like, yeah.

I mean, my Yeah, I mean, daughter, you know, is a great example of that. So like, you know, she, she started as, as a figurative oil painter, and she, she did that, and she had success at it. She's been in many galleries across the country. Um, she had modest financial success. She could live on her own, like she could support herself. Um, but But then she was like, okay, well, what else can I do that I enjoy? So she teaches painting. She does like private classes for companies. Like, you know, she'll come in and do a— That's cool. You know, as a, like a team building event, right? She's started partnering with another artist and they're doing murals. Right, so, you know, she didn't just grind herself off on this one stone that was figurative oil painting that she loves. She expanded it into, okay, what else can I do? It was that— I would say it was out of financial necessity, but it was also like, you don't want to You don't want to be tied to that one thing and be beholden to it. And if you can't get financial success from that, you starve. You don't want to be that person.

Yeah, I mean— No, well, I mean, it creates so much self-doubt and it creates, you know, and then it implodes and artists are inherently sensitive anyway. And so it just becomes this like very unfulfilling life versus like, you know, when you realize like that, that your creativity and you're using it like if directionally you want to be here, if you can do something that is here or here, do that.

Yes.

Yes. And it's not a bad thing. And the other thing that you said that I really believe in is like there's this with artists often like a little bit of a shame in teaching because there's like this belief that those who can't do teach. I think that's total bullshit. Like then it for me, like, and I teach writing workshops, a bunch of them, and I love— it's my favorite thing is to like stir creativity in others. And the reason why I love it is because selfishly it makes me better. You know what I mean?

Like Yes, teaching actually, you learn more in teaching than you do on the other side of the desk. Really, I mean, you do, because you have to have a depth of understanding to teach something to somebody else in a way that they can understand it that is much higher than just, okay, I've absorbed this knowledge.

Yeah.

And so in order to become a good teacher, you really have to master what you're doing.

I think that's right. And I think, like, again, like taking it into the business, like to sit there and like, think like, all right, I'm a painter and I need to be a business person. That's a big gap for a lot of people. They're like, shit, man. Like, I wasn't good at math. It's like the thing that you always hear people say, like, I— me. But if you can teach, you're halfway there because like what being good at business is about, like it's about like math, but it's really about like command and, and communication and all of those other things. And like when you're teaching, you're like, okay, cool. Like, so now I'm looking at people, I'm telling them how to make— so you're thinking about what they're creating as product, not as much as art, and then you're telling them what to do with it. And how to make it better. Okay, well, that's— you're now 60% there. So, like, now let's look at, like, material cost and cost of time. And before you know it, like, that was a vine to get you to be the business person you needed to be in the first place. So, yeah, like, teaching is to me, like, the best thing people can do.

I think, you know, to boil it down to its essence, to be reductive, Business is just solving problems for money right now. You know, you do have to answer that question of, can I make money solving this problem? Yes. Okay. Because you can solve problems all day and not get paid. But that's all business is, is solving problems for somebody else in exchange for value. And, and, and accounting and finance is nothing more than a language. I tell people all the time, like, it's not a math skill, it's a language skill. Accounting is a language skill because it is the language of business. And all it's doing is it's telling a story. It's telling a story about the business. Was the business successful? Did the business achieve its goals? All of those questions that you have about business, the accounting and the financial information will tell you that story. And then if you make that shift to say, okay, it's a language. So I don't know Spanish, I learn Spanish. I don't know accounting, I'm learning the language. I think it's easier for creatives to get their brains around it.

Yeah, one of the ways, so I went through Price Business College was a client of ours on our creative agency side. And they wanted— they have this thing called Price Executive Academy. And it's like, just, it's a product. So it's non-credited, but they, they piloted a mini MBA program that I did this, this January through May. And I loved it. And what I loved about it was in the 4 years of doing the Prairie Surf stuff, like, it was just baptism by fire. Really in business and politics and really honestly culture.

Um, yeah, you had a lot of wheels spinning there.

It was a, it was a lot. And we didn't have a team at all. I mean, we, there was a couple of, you know, a couple of us, but really like we were, we were, um, under-resourced. Um, for, and it was nobody's fault. It was just, we never could quite get the traction that we needed to create any kind of stability for anybody. So we were always kind of chucking it. But anyway, I kind of lost my train of thought. But oh, but so I did this program. And the way that I felt like when I began to sort of understand the inputs and outputs, I didn't, but I didn't have the language. So I'd be like, I know intuitively, right, that deal won't work. I know for a fact they're not going to give us 10% of the gross of whatever. I know that's wrong. I don't know how to articulate it. Right. And so went through this whole process. And then when I went through this, this deal, Price Business College, I was like, ah, language, got it. Okay, I see. And, you know, and you begin to really understand how it works. And like the way that I always sort of would describe it was when going back to my travel days was like I felt like I got put in the back of it. I landed in a new city where I don't know the language and got put into the back of a taxi. That was going in the wrong direction. And I knew that we were going in the wrong direction, but you— but I couldn't— you couldn't tell me why. And I couldn't tell them how to get to where we were going because I knew— but I know it's north and the sun is over there, right? You know? Right. And so eventually I learned the language and the layout and the landscape. You got— it takes time. And I was lucky to get beat up the way I did. You know, it— I mean, I think eventually I will be 100% grateful for the experience that I, I've gone through.

Um, I, I think I, I— yes, 100%. And the, the thing about, uh, another thing I want to demystify about finance and accounting: when I, when I tell people that I'm an accountant or a CPA, they're like, oh, you must be good with numbers. And I'm like, yeah, not really. I mean, like, the, the highest order math you get in accounting is arithmetic, and I learned that in second grade. So like, it's not a math aversion. It really— the numbers aren't complicated as long as you understand the language, right? Like, to me, the numbers are like the— what's the word?

The—

God, it just escaped me— the accent, if you will. Like, it's like that. Like, you know, but as long as you understand the concepts, the math is not that important. I mean, that may sound weird, but it really isn't.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think like, I think part of, you know, you talk about being an accountant and I— there is a lot of vulnerability in not understanding something, you know, like, I mean, when I was at, you know, unsolicited plug for your book, when I was at Oklahoma Film Day at the Capitol, you all had a booth set up and like, you know, and I got this film program that I'm involved in with 1,000 kids in it and like, I walked by and was like, I mean, if you could make kids just comfortable having conversations with accountants, you know what I mean? Where it's just like this. It's like going to the dentist is what it feels like. You know, I remember, so you're, you know, you dread going, you didn't keep track. If you're a 1099, like the accountant's going to punish you financially when you get your, you know, you're doing your tax. It just sucks. It's like going to the dentist. Until you understand that the reason why you go to the dentist is so you can keep your teeth.

Exactly. No, I— it's funny you use dentist as an analogy because I always tell that to my people. I'm like, you got to understand how people see us. Like, who wants to go to the dentist? No one gets excited about going to the dentist, right? Like, and, and that's the same thing. And to continue the analogy, uh, not to bag on dentists, but, you know, they tend to be the medical professionals that are not great people people. Like, they're the ones that, you know, their patients, you know, can't talk, you know, so, so you don't have to talk to them. Like, it— yeah. And, and accountants are the same way. I mean, they, they gravitate to the spreadsheet, not to people. And so, you know, that's, that's my hardest job, is getting my people trained up with the skills to be able to empathize, their emotional intelligence, and to communicate in a way that is not accountanty, accountant, accounting. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's true. And I think another part of being an artist is like most artists start poor. You know, like it's not, you're not making a ton of money. Many die poor. Yeah, totally. Well, but you know, when it's fun to go to the accountant is when you've made a shitload of money, you know what I mean? Like, and you, and like, you've managed it well, you're like, how do we do this here? Right now? Like, let's look at it. And, and I think there's a little bit of almost shame that comes with like having to look at your, your net income, you know, just like, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember not liking that very much. You know, certain years, particularly as a writer, But yeah, at the end of the day, it's just about— it's empowering. And I think like, and this is more the writer in me, but like, you know, I would travel all around the— and so much of this is like also being able to play the role that we played in Oklahoma City and working with the city and working with the Chamber of Commerce and working in different communities and schools and all those things. But like, I would do travel writing. You'd go to a city and they'd explain to you how they funded some initiative and you don't really understand it, but understanding how cities work is really about— you got to understand the money. When you understand the money, then you understand why people make the decisions that they make macro. So when you're sitting down to be like, "I want to write a story about these 5 characters," if you're not thinking about how they pay for their lives, what they can and can't pay for first and foremost, you're not writing a good story because that's like, that's the reality of their lives. That's every person in the world. Yes. Is like the reality of their life is like the decisions they make are just 95% of the time is about money. And so like to me to sit there and be like, okay, well, if I'm going to go back and revisit, like I always like these father-son stories and father-son dynamics and I always wrote them from the lens of like the misunderstood son. That was just like, I want to be an artist and my dad doesn't understand. And I never for once was like, what does a dad think about his son that wants to be an artist? And you're like, okay, well, like, let's put ourselves in the dad's position. The dad has a mid-level executive job where he clears like $80,000 a year. He's got this kid that only likes art and won't— like, this dad is the guy I worry about, not the kid. You know, the dad's trying to be a good father. And give advice. But my point is, if you understand someone's understanding of money, they make sense in every way 1,000 times better than if you don't. It's very surface and very amorphous without that understanding. So anyway, that's something that has really changed the way I think about character.

So do you think you'll ever write a screenplay on your experience at Prairie Surf?

Um, no, you said it was funny. It is funny. Um, I think it will influence if I decide to go, and I've been trying to get back to writing. Like, I actually had a, um, writing was always like a very vulnerable thing for me, and that was the hardest part about it was like I talked about the relatability and the character stuff, but like most writing for me was just like an exploration of like pain and insecurity in a way that is humorous. Like, I'm a big believer in like Comedy is just heartbreak plus time, you know, like I think that's pain plus time. It's said differently, tragedy plus time. But I just kind of quit writing when a friend of mine passed away. I was just like, I was with him and it was just a horrible thing. And like, I just was like, I don't want to write shit down anymore. Like, it just, it just stopped. And I did. I would do some, like, travel journalism kind of writing. But I was like, I just like, I have all this in me. Um, and I feel like I understand the world in a way that I never did before, because you understand mortality in a way that's just like, it's so fleeting. Um, and then I had my kids, you know, uh, in, in the same almost couple of years and all of these things were so transformational and then went through this process with Prairie Surf and like, I don't feel like the same person anymore. And since we decided to shut down, like, I've been doing a lot of like, what if I could start over again, what would I do? Like, people ask, you know, I think there's so many people in this world that dream of that, having that opportunity. I'm actually getting to, and I'm getting to from a place that's empowered. And, and so I've kind of thought about writing again, and in that like pain plus time is the definition of comedy. Like Prairie Surf and all of those things that I talk— parenting is really hard, but it's funny and soulful to reflect on. Death even is, is in some ways so raw and inhuman, there's, there's humor in it. And Prairie Surf was just— is— was wild. I mean, it was, it was so much stuff that you just can't believe is real. And I'm not talking about like the poli— I'm talking about like Here's a convention center that's been falling apart for 40 years. Entrepreneurs, tag, you're it. By the way, they call the roof Myriad Falls because it leaks so much water that you can hear it roaring like Turner Falls when it rains. And you're like, where we're going to put the soundstages? They're like, yeah, I don't know. You guys wanted the building, so let's make some movies. But there was so much humor in it. And so much soul, so much of Rachel's soul, so much of mine, so much of the people that work for us and with us.

So yeah, I mean, I think it'd be an interesting story to hear for sure.

All the—

yeah, for inspiration.

It's a— it's a— it is, you know, and there— and I think— I don't know. I mean, I go back to, you know, for me, like, as an artist, I mean, and as a— and as someone who's become very entrepreneurial, like, like all the moments in my life that like, where I was like, I made these like huge, like chasm leaps always stem from something I didn't want that just happened. You know, I've been reading that Matthew McConaughey book like Red Lights and Green Lights and like Green Lights, you know, and like these red lights, like they're real. And but that is where the shit happens, you know, like it is in like, you know, I think about like shows getting canceled in LA and being like, God dang it. I'm going to lose my apartment like this. Right. And it's out of my control. Like, I have no control of any of these. But like, here's travel writing. And next thing you know, I'm on a plane going to Fiji for free. And it's just like, okay, well, let's, let's try this. But like, you don't try things unless you're stuck. And so then it's like, all right, how do we get stuck? Let's not create getting stuck. But when we're stuck, you've got to sit there and you've got to go, okay, then what is the opportunity in What is calling me? And where can I move? And like, where can I move? Like, we live in a three-dimensional world. So it's like, if you're just thinking linearly, like, you're fucked.

Well, yeah, I had that epiphany earlier this week, and I don't know that it's novel, but what came to my brain was only humans think in straight lines. Like, there are no straight lines in nature. Like in all of creation, there's no straight lines. And we think that things are going to happen to us in a straight line, especially in business. Like, well, we're going to do this, this, and this, and this is going to happen, and it's all going to go out the way we planned. No, it's not. I don't care how good you are at planning. Nothing works out that way.

No, I mean, it doesn't. And like, there's a— I think it's attributed to Herbie Hancock. And it was in a documentary I was watching, and someone would tell the story of someone coming up to Herbie Hancock and saying, like, how did you— how do you play that? What is he, the saxophone guy, I guess? Uh, so well. Um, how did you do it? And he goes, what do you do? And the guy's like, man, I hate— my life sucks, man. I'm a waiter, and like, it's just miserable, and all I want to do is play horns. And he's like, that's what's going to make you play the horn well. Like, lean into that thing that you don't like and like make art from that place, you know? Like, like old bands. I mean, listen to like Counting Crows the other day, you know? And like Adam Dürritz as a, as a 55-year-old, like, self-actualized multi-millionaire is not the same. It's not evocative in the way that like it's him, this kid singing about Mr. Jones is.

And like, Eminem is one of those, like, when when he first started, like, yeah. And then he— it's not, it's not the same because it's—

no, no, but it's, but it's just, it's all that pain. And so, like, you know, you know, and what artists all are gravitating towards is that, like, actualization. Like, that's what we want, you know. It's all about just, like, trying to, like, create equilibrium. And whether that's, like, a sort of allocation again of, like, serotonin and dopamine and oxytocin or if it's just something more spiritual than that, whatever it is, we're writing to resolve, we're creating to resolve and to seek equilibrium in some way to be like, "Ah, here's how I countered this pain with this story." And, for this moment in time, it stops and you're finished. And then, it goes on again. And, the more off balance you are, the more— agitation cycles are what clean. And, So I guess I always think of, I don't know, that as an artist and like, that's the part of me on the business side is like, when you're just experiencing life as an artist, you're more susceptible to those things. But when you're like thinking like a business guy, it's just like, all right, we got to make money to keep the ship going. So like, stop that emotion. I'm not going to deal with that. That's sad, but I'm going to compartmentalize. And at some point, you know, the artist business guy's got to be like, we got to open some of these doors and let this chaos kind of in. And when that happens, you're like, all right, create, now it's time.

I love that. Yeah. So how do, how do people find out more about what you're doing currently?

Um, I think so. I've got, you know, all my— so what I'm doing now is I'm making content for people. So like kind of create a production company for hire. Um, the— I'm giving myself a little time so that I can kind of get back to these kind of creative roots, uh, a little bit before I kind of launch the next thing. But, um, we just finished, uh, my, my team and I, under what we're temporarily calling Matt Payne Media, just created a 3-part, uh, district series in Oklahoma City with 405 Magazine and Cadillac. We just finished up a thing with Joe Castiglione and Price Business College at OU. So we got things like that. And then like most of my work, my art is at Matt Payne Media or on Instagram at Matt Payne Travel Photography, which is something I've never changed. But that's where I post most of my work. And over the next 6 months, I'm going to, I'm going to let fate kind of guide me to whatever my next step is. But I continue to work closely with Scissortail Studios, the high school program that I co-founded. So I'm going to put— continue to put my time there, serving on a couple of boards, one at OU Gaylord College, one at Oklahoma City Community College. So I'm just going to just engage and give back and, and create and sort of trust that the next thing is going to emerge just like it has every other time in my life.

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