Business Beyond Profit: Arunjay Katakam

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world. Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Arunjay Katakam, author of Generation Hope. Welcome to the show, Arunjay.

Thanks for having me, Chris.

Absolutely. So, um, tell us about your book. We'll just jump right into it.

Yeah, I want to start by saying when I was younger, when I was age 11, I can remember wanting to make millions. That was, you know, like this memory, and it was not from my parents. My parents didn't really care, but society— society told me that money equals success. And it took me 3 decades to kind of unravel that. And, you know, I went into a career in investment banking till a friend of mine told me, to succeed in this industry, you need to be so greedy that you'd be willing to knock out your granny's tooth and melt the gold filling. And that's when I knew it wasn't for me. Yeah, I then shifted to financial inclusion. But I still wanted to make millions. So I just want— now wanted to do it, do some good and make some millions, you know. Okay, till— go ahead. Until the pandemic hit and I realized that actually, uh, I was part of the problem for my industry and what I was trying to do. And trying to make millions of people who don't have very much is, you know, like— so, so then I questioned myself finally, like, why do I want to make these millions? Like, what, what is the driver behind it? Because it was pretty much blind faith till that point of, you know, like, society told me this, this is what I believe, this is what I need to do. And the answer to me that came to me was that I wanted to actually do more good. So I want to use that money to make a bigger impact. And then I realized I could just short circuit this process, you know, because enough people have made enough money. There's a lot of philanthropists out there. Yes. And, you know, it could be— take me 20 years. It could take me never. And, you know, what's the point, right? You know, like, so, so yeah, so that's the genesis of Generation Hope was that realization.

Okay, well, let's unpack that a bit. Okay. So you, you you said that you had this belief, um, that you picked up not from your parents but from, from the world at large, that success meant making money.

And, and lots of it.

Yes. And, and then you went into an industry that was maybe not ethical, um, and it, it caused a problem where you're like, well, there's some things more important than money, and I'm not willing to do those things. So you said, I'm going to pivot and do— I still want to make a lot of money, but I'm going to do it differently. And then you decided that doing, doing that would not serve you and your desire to help others. Did I rephrase that correctly?

Yeah, pretty much, Christian. I think what I realized was I was really part of the problem rather than the solution, you know, like, because by wanting to make those millions off the people, like, it just doesn't, you know, you can't really You can't achieve that. And the thing is that part of the problem also I found that I was— is that this— if everybody wants to make millions, you know, and everybody goes in that direction. Well, it's not to say everyone can't, but it just— it doesn't serve us. And there are, you know, kind of things that came that I learned from that. So, the moment I realized this, internalized this, kind of shifted from the scarcity mindset to one of abundance, it was a huge relief. It just, you know, that going through it, it was deep work. It, you know, took a few years, but that was transformational.

Okay, so you're saying that the scarcity mindset was in part what drove your belief about needing to make lots of money.

Okay.

And then when you shifted out of that into an abundance mindset, um, I guess my question is, what actually changed? Because I, I, I would have thought that it was actually the opposite, that like people with a scarcity mindset don't believe that making a lot of money is possible. Or that they're not deserving of it, etc., that it's, that it's a limited thing, like the amount of air in a room. I mean, it's just there's only so much, right? Whereas the abundance mindset understands that, you know, all the money and all the time are already out there in the world. You just have to go utilize it. So how does changing your mindset out of a scarcity mindset change your value of money? I guess maybe that's what I'm asking.

Yeah, I think that's really interesting because you're the first person, Chris, who actually thought, you know, explained it to me in that way. Because it is true, limiting beliefs and, you know, that's one level of scarcity. But the way I think of scarcity is more on, you know, so I had some business advice like 20 years ago or something that you shouldn't leave money on the table, you know, like, so it's basically maximize your position and your profit or, you know, and that, that is a, for me, a scarcity mindset because it's saying to me that things are scarce, I need to grab as much as I can. And, and the thing I've learned is that there's a power dynamic. You know, you and I have won the postcode lottery. All the people listening to this podcast have also won the postcode lottery. We are so privileged, and if we do not leave money on the table for the person less privileged or less, you know, able to negotiate, we're going to squeeze them. And that's what has happened. That has happened right across the board. So when COVID hit, half the world's population had no money to fall back on because they were just living paycheck to paycheck. And inequality has opened up like a crocodile's mouth on a graph, right? Like, it's just in the last 40 years widened to an extent. And we have people who have so much money they just don't know what to do with it. And we have, you know, on the other side of it, people who are just struggling hard to you know, just feed themselves and their families, you know. So it was this, it's like, do you need to make— how much money do you need to make? Do you need to make— like, what are your, you know, if you really believe in abundance and you're content with what you've got and, you know, you're happy to kind of also, so a little bit of it is a kind of a cooperative model. And so in the book, I particularly look at the B-Corp model, you know, which is the triple bottom line of people, planet, and profit. And that's, for me, is a very kind of good place to land because it's not pure profit, it's not I'll do anything just to make money and profit. I'm also going to care about people and planet. And we need that, you know. So, you know, consciousness is rising and people are questioning, you know, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this job? What's beyond just doing, you know, that's why we had the Great Resignation, quiet quitting. But the missing piece, you know, is just really truly understanding, like, money is a tool. What do I want, you know, from it? And like, rather than just blindly chasing it— and it's not just money that we chase, you know, it's status. It's like there's a whole bunch of things that are connected to that. Like, society tells us that these are successful success indicators, you know, like And, and in my case, certainly, like I was saying, it was just blindly chasing these things without actually questioning why I wanted to do it.

Yeah. And I think that's important for every entrepreneur to, to clarify for themselves. Why is it that you're doing what you're doing? Because ultimately, and I've seen this time and time again, I to some extent saw it with myself, is that you reach the success level of success that you initially set out. But I didn't really clarify it. I didn't have this goal of saying I wanted a company this size or I wanted this much money in the bank. I didn't ever quantify it. But you reach whatever level of success and you're looking around and it's inherently unfulfilling. But I think what you're pointing out is that the beliefs— there's this overlay. And what I see in what you're saying is this overlay of one is the belief in the mindset about money, but then there's also this belief around generosity. There's ancient, you know, I come from a Judeo-Christian belief system. And there's ancient wisdom, like, if you look back in Leviticus, there's the commandment not to go over your fields twice, and you leave the remnant for the poor. Right? And a lot of baked into the Jewish system with the Year of Jubilee, where all debts were forgiven after 7 years. And so it was kind of like this societal reset to ensure stability economically, right? And so there's— but at the heart of it, you know, those are the rules. But at the heart of it was, It was being generous. Right. And I think, you know, one of the failures of capitalism is that it is agnostic as to morality. Right. Like it doesn't care whether you're generous or stingy. And so when greedy people take advantage of capitalism, it it, you know, hurts. Whereas when you have generous people that take advantage of capitalism, um, it helps. And so I, I, what, what I see you saying is, is it this overlay of those two beliefs? Yes. Is that fair?

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so what were some of— okay, well, let me back up. What prompted you to write a book?

Yeah, I mean, I had written a book prior to this, and, uh, it was really, uh, it's called The Power of Micromoney Transfers, and it was really about cross-border payments. And it was a startup I was building that didn't get across the line. I had done 3 previous startups, um, with good exits, one of them to Twitter even. So, um, although you know, I got washed out well before that event happened. But my fourth, which is a cross-border startup, didn't cross the line and essentially failed. And so writing that book was therapy, you know. Okay. This is everything I wanted to do with it. Here's the blueprint, you know. And so A year later, when I had this realization, I knew how to write a book, and I knew kind of the, you know, how, how much it would help me. It took me a lot longer than I thought, but the book project allowed me to do a lot of research. And, you know, it was a vehicle that I would not have read the books and I would not have done the research if I didn't have this project. Okay. And that was one. The second one was that the writing makes you really articulate.

Yes.

You know, yes. When you talk, you can waffle along and, you know, you—

Yes, you can.

When you, when you need to write something, you, you just really need to bring, you know, you need to engage the reader, you need to, you know, um, be concise, be, you know, sort of ready to get to the point in a way in which, you know, so I found that clarity, it just clarifies my thought, my thinking. Um, and, you know, you, you have to make that argument and you're making it with yourself because it's you and the manuscript.

Right.

And, and I, so, you know, I, I realized after that, like, I was the biggest beneficiary of writing this book. Yes. Even if nobody read it, like, just going through that process.

Yeah, because it forced you to clarify what you believed and argue with yourself. Like, you know, I think, yeah, I had a similar experience when writing Profit First for Creatives in that, you know, I really didn't intend for it to be cathartic or therapeutic. Therapeutic. But as I wrote it, I— as I was retelling my story, I realized— because I did, just like you said, you had to really go back and look at the evidence, right? And process it and synthesize it and communicate it. It had a profound effect on me writing that book. In a way I had no intent to do. I mean, like, that, that was not the intent. Absolutely. So, okay, what, what were— what are the, the conclusions or recommendations that you, uh, arrive at in the book?

So I think entrepreneurship is a really powerful tool. It has changed— I mean, it's proven time and time and again how much you know, development and change it brings. Um, and so what, what we need is more entrepreneurs from people who can be entrepreneurs. I, I don't believe everyone can for various reasons, but we need entrepreneurs who are going to care about more than just themselves and just, you know, making their own fortunes. And I think, you know, for me, that is a big part of this, is like to open people's eyes, you know, to some of the broader issues. And, you know, why— like, I— one of the things I debunk is this idea of self-made. Self-made, uh, it is You know, no, almost no one is self-made. I would go to that extent.

You know, I would agree. I mean, I would agree and say it's an absolute. No one is self-made.

Right. Yeah, there we go. So there are the rags-to-riches stories, but even those guys or girls had the help of community, you know.

So, sure.

And that community, you know, has played such a significant role. But then we tell these narratives, you know, like self-made and, you know, sort of this and that. And what we end up with is everyone trying to emulate those kind of myths, you know, that don't exist, you know. So What we— if you understand, as a— like, you know, you clearly, um, agree and believe in that, and— but many people haven't even thought of it. But when you, when you do think of it, when you peel the onion and you understand that, and then it's like on your journey as an entrepreneur, recognizing that, what are you going to do in return? You know, all of these things actually, um, really make a big difference versus, you know, some who are just— and, you know, there is some benefit in being singular, singularly focused, but if you're just a selfish entrepreneur, if you're just in it to make that money, and, you know, so that's the difference I see. And I equate it to smoking, you know, like back in the day, amassing this huge amount of— I mean, like back in the day, smoking was cool. And today, you know, we're still— we're on the kind of— I would like to think we're on the cusp, but amassing huge amounts of wealth is still cool. It's like, you know, and I think we'll get to a point where, you know, if like smoking today, over a billion people smoke more than ever before because obviously the population has increased. But even though people know it's bad, they still do it. So it's not to say that, you know, the world's going to change in a way completely, but we have enough people now who know, you know, who are self-aware and who are able to do what's good for them and others around them. And similarly, you know, through companies like, you know, through building B Corps, and the like, we can create ecosystems and, you know, financial companies.

You're using a term I'm not familiar with, B-Cups?

B-Corp. Yeah, it's the B-Corporations.

Okay, what are those?

So, that was started 20 years ago. They're like B-Labs is the parent that created the— so a B-Corp is a particular type of registered accreditation you can get. So you have to go through a process to achieve that, and it's— you get— think of it as an ISO standard but for, for business ethics rather than, okay, operational standards. So it, it, um, it means you, you need to prove that you're not in it only for profit, you're also in it for people and planet. So it's the triple bottom line.

Here's— I've never heard of these, so I'm not opining about that in particular. But what I will push back on with is that if the solution is some process and it doesn't change people's thinking or beliefs or their heart, the inner skeptic in me is that there's going to be people that just game the system. Like, okay, it's cool now to have this accreditation. And so I'm going to check the boxes, but I'm really not going to have that intent in my business. I'm just going to figure out how I can look like I'm these things. Right. And I see a lot of that. This may be completely off the wall, but in America— I didn't even ask, are you in Great Britain?

Yes, I am.

Yeah. Okay. And to an extent, Europe too. There's this— you see these megacorporations that essentially are pandering to whatever they think that is what the people want. So that could be a green initiative. It could be conscious capital, some It could be DEI, it could be any of these things. But at the end of the day, they as an organization didn't really embrace any of those things. They're just doing it to look cool. It's like they didn't change as people. They're just changing the makeup or the clothing. What do you say to that?

No, I agree. There definitely are those. But but there are also people who are genuinely, authentically interested in doing those for the right reasons.

Yeah.

Yes. And those, you know, that's who I want to focus on. And I mean, that's who I want to— so I think, you know, through the book, it is a little bit of awakening in terms of, oh, you know, these are some of the things I didn't think about. You know, and I argue different sides of it. It's not, you know, it's nothing is black and white. So, you know, kind of live in a lot of gray. So it's personal choices at the end of the day. And, you know, I'm now building non-for-profit startups as public utilities. And that's because in the financial inclusion space, that's what's needed. And I'm not saying everyone should do that. This is what I'm doing. Yeah, you know, other— but have that intentionality, you know, like really figure out why you want to build what you want to build. What is the value you're creating for society? What are your drivers? And how can you create something authentically and genuinely that would make the world a better place?

Yeah. And it's interesting that I'm having this conversation with you today because I've had— entrepreneurship is, I've said, kind of a mental illness. And in the sense that it's a distinct pattern of characteristics that show up in people that are entrepreneurs. I mean, I'm not saying that we're monolith. I mean, there's a lot of variety among entrepreneurs, but there's there's some key elements that exist, and they exist at a base level. There are things you can't turn off. There are things you can't learn. Like, there is just how you're made. Um, and, you know, I, I was— I, I have been thinking there, there's a lot of opportunity in my space, in, in my industry, accounting, uh, in the United States. There's a lot of trends that are converging And there's a lot of opportunity. And I've been toying with for over a year, you know, like, God, should I take advantage of this opportunity? Like, it's there. Somebody is going to take advantage of it and multiple people will. But I'm wrestling with the why to me, like, okay, because my experience has said that as an entrepreneur, a lot of us are passion-driven. We're not strictly opportunity or money-driven. And so in order to do something, regardless of the opportunity to make more money, is like, why do I want to do this?

Right?

Absolutely. And I think that's what you're talking about, because at the end of the day, if you're just in business to make money, that's a wholly unfulfilling thing. I mean, like, it will not fill your cup.

Absolutely, it won't. And chasing it is the other part of the misery. You know, like, what you said is when you get there, it won't fill your cup. But you've also had a pretty miserable time of it chasing it.

Yes. Yes. Which is why, like, I'm, I'm a passion-driven entrepreneur because I know the work that is necessary. And if there's not a good reason to do it, why am I doing it? Right? Like that, that— why go through that pain, the sacrifices that you have to make if it's just for more money? That's not enough motivation to me, right? Like that just, yeah.

Yeah. And so, and I, you know, I think you've again done some of that deeper thinking, deeper work too. I've understood some of these things, which, you know, it's not across the board. And, you know, they are, they just, and I think, you know, I see the kind of the two camps, the ones who've made it And I think especially when you make it, you realize it even more clearly because you've got to the promised land and you found, well, you know, things are still pretty much the same. You know, and but it's the even more people who haven't made it who are aspiring to that are the ones that, you know, this, you know, kind of for them to have this introspection and really truly understand why, you know, would really make a difference too. You know, obviously AI is the big theme, big kind of transformational technology, and now people are like, yeah, if you're not building an AI startup, like, why are you doing what you're doing? You know, I I don't believe everyone should be building AI stuff. You know, it's a tool and you can use it. You should, maybe, you know, like depends on what you're doing, but that following your passion is far more important than following a trend. Yes.

Yes. And I kind of left off what I was thinking around the mental illness part of being an entrepreneur. In that you can't turn it off, is that like this opportunity just keeps showing up. It keeps coming, coming back to my head and I'm like, I can't ignore it. I don't have to act on it, right? There's lots of opportunities I've seen and I've passed on, right? Because that doesn't interest me. But this one, it just keeps presenting itself. And maybe there is some underlying purpose behind it. I— it's not clear to me, like, uh, but I know that, uh, just going and building it just to build it, like, because you can build it, um, that doesn't resonate with me. So, but, but it keeps coming back. And, and so, um, I, I, I think, I, I think that there could be a tie-in to my purpose, but I haven't seen it yet.

Right. And I think, I mean, so explain again, why is that an illness?

Like, because I say that tongue in cheek. I'll tell you why. Because I was at an entrepreneurs organization event many years ago. And the speaker said, "Okay, when I read off one of these traits, you know, I want you to stand up." And he went through all these traits, and by the end of the list, everybody in the room was standing up. And he said, "Okay, great. I've just explained to you the symptoms of some mental illness." I don't remember what it was. And it just resonated with me for some reason. I'm like, oh, okay. And it's not a mental illness in the sense that it's a dysfunction or it's something you can cure. I just say it tongue in cheek because it's an underlying condition that exists. Like entrepreneurs are wired differently. They think differently. And, you know, to your point, they don't do it all on their own. They absolutely have to rely on others to help them implement that vision. But there is something unique about entrepreneurs mentally.

I don't— Yeah, I think that's fair. See the world differently. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I mean, As entrepreneurs, we see opportunities all the time. That's just, you know, part of who we are. But obviously can't act on all of them because, you know, it's—

No, I mean, I'll go into a restaurant and I'm like, why do they do this this way? Like, I would do this this way, you know, like, I mean, you're constantly evaluating the world for efficiency and like what the possible is, right? You know, and it's nuts.

I mean, the efficiency. Yeah. I mean, I totally like everything I do. I'm trying to make more efficient, you know?

Yeah. I don't know how many times it's like, God, this, this, there's got to be a better way to do this. Right.

Like, yeah, just, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I'm looking forward to the day when we have AI agents to do, you know, to create all of that level of efficiency, you know what I mean? Like dealing with corporations and banks and like, it's also inefficient. Customer service is like, you know, all of that. But I—

go ahead.

I'm sorry. No, no, no. After you.

I was at an EO event last night with Vern Harnish. And I don't know if you know who Vern is, but He was actually the founder of EO, iconic entrepreneur, author, philanthropist. I mean, he's just amazing, amazing guy. But he commented that he said, you know, in the history of humanity, we didn't work more than 1,200 to 1,500 hours a year. Like, you know, especially like when you— and it makes sense because like if you think if we were all growing our own food, you know, during the winter you're not doing anything, right? You might be repairing some equipment, but like you didn't work. And he's actually saying that this, this working 40, 50, 60 hours a week was an anomaly of the Industrial Revolution. It was not how humans existed for most of our existence, and that we're kind of going back to the future where we're, we're actually going to be working less. And that's a good thing. He was talking about some company— it was actually in the UK— that had 50 developers. I think they were in the AI space. And his payroll was $5 million. He was roughly paying them $100,000 apiece. But he found that the top 5 were producing 80, 90% of the work, or the actual work that moved the company forward, right? Not right.

And so, right, right.

And so he, he actually got rid of 45 of them and, uh, raised the pay of the 500, um, and, and he cut a lot of his payroll. But, but, but he said, he said, here's the reality, I'm going to probably end up having to pay those 5 people $5 million to keep them. And now, I don't know what that does to the income disparity and the thing that you talked about, but it was an interesting idea, essentially, is that businesses are going to have fewer people that are paid more.

Well, so yes, I would broadly agree with that. I want to pick on a couple of things. So one was you said we will work less. Adam Smith said by the turn of the century, people will be working 15-hour weeks. We know that hasn't come to pass. We had the technology for it to come to pass, but instead we created bullshit jobs and we created busyness, you know, like—

well, and we created these governments that suck so much off of the productivity. I mean, like, the governments have ballooned, and, and, and as part of G— is GDP and the taxation and everything. And so a lot of people are stuck with having to work, which, you know, what's the trade-off, right? Uh, but no, no, you're right. I mean, but even think about it in, in our lives, in, in you know, if we wanted to live at a subsistence level, like we can feed ourselves, we can clothe ourselves, we can house ourselves, right? You don't have to have a lot of money to do that. Yeah, but each of us choose not to live that way, right? Each of us choose that we want to do more and have more. And it's, it's kind of the human condition, which I think is what you're speaking to. In, in your book. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, in large parts, because the thing is that, you know, we know bigger house, a bigger car, bigger everything. It doesn't, you know, you can never keep up with the Joneses. And that is, you know, bottomless bucket that is not going to serve you. But yet so many people do it. They're, because when you are in that rat race or in that loop, you're stuck in it. You know, like, it takes a lot of work, a lot of courage to come out of it. And, you know, and that is one big part of this equation, because like I say, you know, those who aspiring to make the millions like I was, it is, you know, you're not serving yourself. And you're not serving others in that process. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't be ambitious, you shouldn't want to, you know, like, I think ambition is very good, improving things, you know, but when you think about it more deeply and when you come from that place of wanting to make the world a better place, leaving, you know, being a good ancestor, that actually is more powerful. And you can take all of your talents as an entrepreneur and apply it and have a, you know, a different outcome, hopefully a better one, rather than just a self-centered, you know, outcome just for yourself.

Yeah, and, and, and I, I think you're right. Like, it's been my experience that, um, my own personal experience and my experience with all the entrepreneurs that I've met, that a lot of them are just stuck on grow for as default. Like there's not any reason behind it. It's just more, right?

So that's one problem. And then coming to the, you know, like ultimately, you know, how much do you pay? Do you pay, you know, minimum wage, do you pay a living wage? Here in the UK, we have— there's a distinction. And, you know, living wage is roughly 20% more, but it makes a huge difference to those people's lives. You know, they're going from just about getting by to having a little bit more wriggle room, you know. And as a business, you get to choose that, you know, like there's a huge power dynamic there. Sure, people get to choose which businesses they work for, but that's less, you know, the opportunities are few and far and sometimes, you know, like it's not very often that, you know, in that and a minimum wage level, you get that level of choice.

So yeah, and I think that those choices are not strictly altruistic. I mean, you can do them because you're generous, like, but, but there's also a benefit to the company if you take care of others, right? Yeah. And like, to your point, like, not leaving money on the table, you know, not squeezing your vendors. Yeah. Is, is not just altruistic. It benefits you, right? Like, if they stay in business and they make money, they can serve you longer, right? So like I kind of come back to like, I don't like— it has to be a win-win, right? Like, I don't want to win at the cost of someone else, whether that's an employee, whether it's a client, whether it's a vendor. Like, because that's not sustainable, right? Like, because then you've broken that thing. You know, vendors easier to think about, like, okay, well, I squeezed the lowest price out of them, and then 2 years later, they're out of business, or they're making so little money that they can't do it the right way. Right. And so I'm getting bad service, bad product. So it should be cooperative and a win-win. It should never be, I'm going to win at the expense of you. Which I think, you know, you talk about finance, like, that's a zero-sum game, right? Like, there is a winner and there's a loser. There, there's very few situations in finance where everybody wins.

So, yeah, my one example in the book is Vanguard. So that's, um, you know, and John Bogle started Vanguard 50, almost 50 years ago, and It's a co-op, you know, it's a cooperative where the clients own the business. There's— they're not shareholders. The shareholders are all of the customers, and that is a win-win situation. So they're very few, they're few and far between, but when, when that happens, so there's no conflict of interest between the management of Vanguard and the customers of Vanguard because, you know, the returns go to the customer. Right. So, um, yes, so the more and more we can create models like that, the, the more that we will be able to, without conflict of interest, provide, you know, better outcomes, and everyone wins. And so, so the, the tagline of Generation Hope is how inclusive economics can help us all thrive. And that's the key. You know, like, what— how do we— you know, how do we all win? How do we all thrive?

We're not going to— we're not all going to thrive and succeed at the same level. I mean, I think that human nature is such that some people are going to work harder and be more productive than others. And there's nothing that can change that.

So I want to just one thing, Chris, I totally agree on that level, but working hard does not equate success. Like, no, it doesn't. You know, it doesn't. You've got lots of people who work really, really hard.

And I agree with that.

Yeah. So, so there is, because this, there is a myth that, you know, hard work pays off, but it's not always, not always, you know.

No, I agree with that.

And so, but, you know, we all have different gifts. We're all born into different families. Our starting points are different. Yes. You know, there is this YouTube video and I write about the story of this, you know, this guy says if you came from a family where your parents were together, take a step forward. If you had high school education, take a step forward. And he goes on and on and on, and, you know, and it's a race, and you get to the end, and he's, you know, giving the winner $100. And, you know, what happens is it's set in America, and so in his example, most of the folks who are at the middle of the field, you know, are privileged, and those at the back are not. And then he says, you know, I bet you that those guys would smoke you in an equal race, but the race is not equal.

Correct. No, 100%.

Yeah. So, so there are many, many factors. So what I'm not advocating for is this inequality. Equality does not exist even between siblings. It's, you know, so, but what we need to do is we need to create, you know, within families, within businesses, and then larger society is constructs where, you know, everyone's winning, like you said, you know, I think that's exactly what it is so that, you know, we can all have a good life. And now if you're unhappy with that for whatever reasons, then that's on you and you're not, you know, Well, yeah, I think you're right.

It's not necessarily working hard. That could be a contributing factor. But to what you're saying is that the opportunities can be there and people just don't pick them up, like, out of fear or whatever. And that's going to happen. And that's what I was kind of getting at is that— and I think what you're saying is that You can't obtain equality of outcomes. You can give people equality of opportunities.

Yeah, I mean, even that, I don't know how equal it could be, but at least we can, you know, we can try to do some of that. But I think just going back to your vendor example, you know, it's not good to squeeze your vendor. I think that's a pretty established, you know, especially smaller. When you're bigger, you have the power, you have the responsibility, and you're going to get substandard, subpar thing. Now, if you didn't squeeze your vendor, if you were good with them and they're still not able to deliver, that's on them, you know. That you created a good environment for a win-win situation, and if they couldn't do their part, uh, then, then that's definitely on them, you know. And then that's something they need to figure out. But as I think for me, as the more powerful person in the equation, and which we are quite often, how do you, you know, what do you do with that? How do you treat it? Do you squeeze? Do you, you know, exercise muscle? Or are you going to look at the bigger picture and do it? And again, you know, not altruistically, but, you know, in your long-term benefit. And all of that comes from having deeper thought into why am I doing this, you know, what you like, and like, have really understanding the bigger picture.

Arun Jay, how do people find your book?

Um, the book's on Amazon, so Generation Hope. And yeah, easiest way to get it. And if they want to reach out and talk to you, um, my website rmj.com, and I'm on LinkedIn. And I want to say my book is also available on my website and also for free, um, you know. So as much as Amazon is the beast that it is and people find it easier, you know, just to one-click and all of that, um, I've also made the book available. Like, it is my gift to the world, and And, you know, those who, you know, either can't afford it or, you know, whatever reason, can get the e-version absolutely for free. I love it.

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