In this episode of The Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim interviews marketing veteran John Jantsch, author of Duct Tape Marketing, about the systemic challenges confronting marketing agencies and how creative entrepreneurs can achieve profitability without sacrificing their art. Jantsch explains his decade‑long, loosely‑applied use of the Profit First methodology, describing how allocating profit, taxes, and owner’s pay into separate accounts reshapes a founder’s focus on true profitability. He critiques the prevailing "tactics‑first" agency model—where firms sell isolated services like SEO or paid ads—arguing that it drives a race to the bottom and fails to move the client’s needle. Instead, Jantsch champions a "strategy‑first" approach that positions the agency as a trusted advisor, enabling higher‑priced, value‑based work. Central to this is what he calls the orchestration triple: a clear market‑focused message, a pricing structure that reflects that value, and a repeatable system that can be taught and scaled. He details how Duct Tape Marketing’s methodology is licensed to other agencies, consultants, and fractional CMOs, creating a network that reinforces the strategy‑first model. The conversation also touches on the impact of AI on creative work, asserting that while AI can automate routine tasks, it cannot replace the uniquely human ability to combine ideas in novel ways—making true creativity a protective moat for profitable agencies. Jantsch and Brim discuss the creative mindset, confronting the guilt of “selling out,” and reframing profit as a tool rather than a compromise. Throughout, they weave personal anecdotes, industry observations, and actionable frameworks aimed at helping creative entrepreneurs build sustainable, profitable businesses.
Chapters
To me, that's the message that business owners need to hear today. That's the package, you know, that solves a very specific problem. The system that we sell is one that actually allows for orchestration. Having the message with the right system allows you to charge the right price, which then we can get into scaling because you can repeat it and you can teach it to other people. But that's really— it's kind of those three things working together. It's the message, the price, and then the repeatable system.
Hey creative, are you ready to discuss profits, the money, the ways to make it happen? The Profitable Creative Podcast is for you, the creative, how you define it. Videographers, photographers, entrepreneurs, marketing agencies, you get it. CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs, and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit.
Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the internet that you will find out how to turn your passion into profit. I'm your host Christian Brim. Joining me today is author of Duct Tape Marketing and marketer extraordinaire John Jantz. I met you at a, a Accounting marketing conference in Kansas City, probably 20 years ago.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I vaguely remember that, but it's the only accounting conference I've done in Kansas City. So were they in Kansas City that put that on? I think it was CBIZ at the time. Yeah. Oh, it was CBIZ.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And bought your book, became a fan. So we are writing Profit First for Creatives and your post on LinkedIn really kind of just fortuitous in this timing. And I was, So tell me what your experience with Profit First is.
So Mike's a good friend of mine. That's, it kind of starts there. I actually helped him create the Profit First Partners Network because I was doing a similar thing and I said, you ought to do this, Mike. So we've been friends again, probably 20 years have been, and have remained friends and have done a lot of things together. We loosely practice Profit First ourselves. And by loosely, I mean, you know, we have maybe 4 accounts and not 40, and And the biggest thing, it's, you know, we've done it for years. It's the biggest thing. It's, you know, we just pay attention to putting profit in and then share profit as an organization or really bonus, I guess it's not really profit, but bonus out of that pool. And then taxes, that's the extent of Profit First that we practice. But it's just the principle of like, if you put it over there, you will, you know, magically you'll have it.
How long have you been using Profit First?
Probably 10 years.
Okay. You were going to describe your problem when you first heard about Profit First or began looking at it, implementing it. What was that problem you were trying to solve?
I think we were just, so I was, you know, a typical starter founder, you know, business owner who, you know, paid, I mean, I've done some things that, a lot of the things he talks about that this problem solves, we weren't really experiencing. I mean, I'd been a W-2 employee for my organization forever, and I mean, we were paying taxes and making a nice living, but we were not focused on profit. It was in fact, it's kind of as a subchapter S 100% owner, you kind of, you almost were, you were almost thinking we don't want to show a profit. Right. Right. For tax purposes. However, what this really, at some point, We're going to sell this business. And, you know, it really kind of dawned on me that we were not able to show, even though we were making a profit, you know, we weren't showing it in the traditional fashion, which I know a lot of people back that out and do play different things with numbers when they're trying to, you know, sell a company. But it's really, for whatever reason, and I think that this, a lot of people experience this, it, it sort of magically has us more focused on profit. And so consequently our profit is greater. Right. You know, so we're doing other things to make sure that everything we do is profitable, you know, so it got more granular into profit rather than just looking at the P&L and going, oh yeah, you know, we made some money this month.
So you are working with other ad agencies, is that correct?
So we, we actually have a number of businesses. We have our own agency, which really practices, I mean, it's kind of the laboratory, if you will, for duct tape marketing. And our methodology, and then we actually license our methodology, which is essentially a very specific approach to developing strategy for, for small and mid-sized businesses. We license that to other agencies, consultants, coaches, fractional CMOs, and, you know, they pay us essentially a training fee, but then they also join a network as well. That part's actually optional, but, you know, can participate in an ongoing network where we do in-person events and continued training and masterminding, all those things.
So when you're looking at marketing agencies, the lay of the land, what's out there, I have my own opinion, but no one cares about mine. We'll focus on yours since you're the expert. It seems like that's a very dynamically changing environment. And I know that there's oftentimes a lack when you talk about a marketing agency, especially in the small business world. The whole concept of business objectives and return on investment is not even considered. Talk about what you see.
So what we see is there are actually very few marketing agencies. They are tactics agencies. And, you know, they're selling a suite of 3 tactics or the tactic of the week or whatever it is that they do or whatever the client says that they want. And quite often they are not— there's no emphasis on strategy. There's no emphasis on messaging or differentiation. You know, it's all just about, yeah, we're going to drive leads, you know, through SEO or, you know, whatever the thing is that they do. And I think the two things have happened. I really see a lot of businesses that are getting kind of soured by that approach because it doesn't move the needle. But I also see a lot of people selling those tactics for increasingly lower amounts. And so, so from the agency standpoint, if you're relying on those tactics, it's kind of a race to the bottom. Right. What we find is by selling strategy, actually our whole goal when we get a prospect is to sell them this engagement that we call strategy first. Because first off, it attracts the right clients, you know, that realize they're, they need to invest in their marketing, invest in their business. But it also allows us to develop the right relationship. We're not a vendor, you know, at that point we are a trusted advisor. And consequently what it allows us to do is it allows us to charge profitably then for the tactics because we are their trusted advisor. They just want us to to make it happen.
So writing this book, Profit First for Creatives, I've come on this core statement that I want to share with you, and then you tell me where, if, if I, my head's in the cloud or I'm on track. Okay. So, uh, the core message of this book is going to be that you don't have to compromise your creativity to make a profit. Creativity and profitability are complementary. Yep.
Yep.
What do you, what do you think about that?
Oh, I, I, I think that it's going to be the only profitable space left for creatives because, you know, I've, I spoke at a conference yesterday and one of the first speakers was using AI in design and it was all about, you know, look at this cool stuff it can do. You know, nobody was talking about, you know, the, the strategic, you know, aspect, um, that a truly creative person can, can bring, um, that, you know, no AI will. And I'm not bashing AI. I mean, I, a lot of A lot of people in that, in, in the creative industry, you know, are fearful of, of these new tools. And what I always tell people is somebody who is a hack using AI is not going to take your job. However, somebody who is creative like you, who employs AI to do some of the things that it's meant to do, will take your job because, you know, that to me is, you know, the, the creativity, you know, AI, well, maybe someday I'll get there, so I shouldn't say we'll never, but currently AI doesn't dream, you know, it, it doesn't think outside the box. I mean, essentially, you know, a lot of these tools that are seen as kind of cool tools and really trendy tools right now, you know, are essentially doing what they've been taught to do. You know, a real— the real value of a creative person is somebody who can package, who can take two things and put them together that, you know, that— I mean, we all look at that. Somebody that's truly creative and you're like, wow, I never would have thought of that. And it was literally somebody that was paying attention to something, you know, that, that looked truly unique to them and they were actually able to bring in into the world. You know, I think that space is very safe today. Now showing people what that would look like in 8 different colors, you know, that's what AI's for.
I think in the marketing agency specifically, as opposed to maybe like other creatives, like content creators or, or videographers, you know, they're living in that realm of algorithms already and have been. And the, impact, I think they're seeing it quicker. But it's this whole idea that really the, the value that you bring as a creative entrepreneur is the novelty. It's what you're creating that didn't exist. You're creating value for your customer or your client to solve their problem. And, and the more uniquely you can do that and the more novel that you can do that, the more you can charge.
100%. And it's really what I'm finding is what's the missing ingredient is orchestration. And that, you know, that's really where, you know, by having, you know, what we've really leaned into licensing fractional CMOs is what we were actually calling this because that's to me, that's the message that business owners need to hear today. That's the package, you know, that solves a very specific problem. The system that we sell is one that actually allows for orchestration. Having the message with the right system allows you to charge the right price, which then we can get into scaling because you can repeat it and you can teach it to other people. But that's really, it's kind of those 3 things working together. It's the message, the price, and then the repeatable system.
Today's episode of The Profitable Creative is brought to you by CoreGroup. Are you tired of doing it all yourself? Do you feel like you have no plan? Let CoreGroup guide you to build the business of your dreams. CoreGroup, your go-to accountant for creatives.
So speaking about the, the agencies that you work with, do you talk to them about Profit First? Do you recommend it? Do you share your experience?
So we definitely have had Mike and probably Ron too on, you know, doing training, you know, to our folks. And, and I know that just because I hear them talking about it, you know, probably a dozen or so of the agencies we work with use Profit First, um, either DIY or, you know, working with somebody. We were actually, uh, in the, I'm talking to Mike this week. In fact, you know, we, it's kind of one of these things we've been saying for a couple years. We, we should really embed our relationship a lot deeper and, and really, you know, be bringing Profit First, uh, professionals into some of our clients, you know, so not just the agencies, but some of the clients that those agencies work with.
Do you see a difference in the agencies you work with, those that do implement Profit First? Yeah.
So we don't I mean, we don't intentionally talk about that aspect of their business because it's, you know, it's none of our business. That's right. You know, not what we're really in, but certainly anecdotally from what they tell me, there are some, you know, raving fans just about how it's kind of changed their whole— I think a lot of agency people, this is a broad generalization, but a lot of marketers, let's put it that way, and creatives probably, you know, the whole numbers thing is, you know, not really their strong suit. And I think that what Profit First has done for a lot of the people I know in that kind of situation is it just kind of simplifies the language. It, you know, it makes it logical. It's not all about, you know, accounting terms necessarily. And I think that in some ways it's whether they're making any more profit or not, it's kind of relieved some of the stress about the whole category.
Sure. Absolutely. That, that tracks with what I've, I've heard from other creatives. One of the things that, and one of my teaching points in my book is is around mindset and that Profit First is a tool and kind of like picking up a, a hammer to try and drive a screw. If you don't understand the intent of the tool, you really can't use it properly. And this mindset around profit, around making money with creative seems to be very distinct. There seems to be this dichotomy of either I can do what I don't like to do and I can make a lot of money grinding stuff out, or I can do what I truly love and I may or may not make any money at it. Yeah. What do you say to that?
Mindset is definitely an issue there. I think there's even guilt, you know, the artist is like, you know, you did kind of the cliché of, oh, you're going to sell out. Yes. You know, Andy Warhol, right? One of the most creative people, you know, that people would name as a great artist made prints.
Right.
The horror of it all. But I mean, I think that what he was able to do though was push— nobody made prints, silk screening like he made them, you know, so it was still, he was able to mass produce items that he felt still, you know, embodied his creativity, but also realized that, you know, there was a lot of money to be made, you know, in doing, you know, that and getting his art out. So that's one example I've heard other people point to, because a lot of people just don't think of him as, selling out, but he mass produced, you know, lots of things. He was one of the first people to have apprentices do his art. So I think that, you know, I think that's just one of those kind of things that's in the, you know, mind of creatives. And, you know, and I think it probably goes hand in hand with, you know, the more creative somebody is sometimes the less analytical. And so I think there is this kind of like you move farther away from ever wanting to see a profit cheat. I think a lot of creatives also do the art that they want to do. In some, I won't say it's all a rebellion, but there is sort of a little bit of like, oh, the masses are doing this. You know, I want to do something unique. You know, that comes with a great price. And so I think some feel like you can't have it both ways, or that if you are actually profitable as an artist, you know, that that's a bad thing. And I think that that's partly just, you know, that's kind of the culture that's out there, I guess.
Perry Marshall. I don't know, do you know him? Oh, sure.
Yeah.
Yeah. So I was at an event that he was presenting on and he made this distinction between artists and builders as entrepreneurs. And the builder sees an opportunity, a need in the marketplace and an opportunity to make money and they go do it. Whereas the creative entrepreneur, not to say they're in the, in the creative industry because I consider myself a creative entrepreneur, but I'm not in the creative industry. Mine is passion-driven. And so they look at that same opportunity that the builder does and says, well, yeah, I can see the opportunity. I can see that there's money to be made, but why would I do that? Because I don't have any interest in it. Well, sure.
You actually opened up a really big point to there. I think that the word creative is terribly limiting in, you know, a lot of people's minds. It's like if I'm not a singer or painter or, you know, then I'm not really that. But I mean, every entrepreneur, I think, makes creative decisions probably all day long. Absolutely. And, you know, somebody wouldn't look at that and go, I'm going to frame that. But I think that, you know, I think we, we underestimate how many of us really are, are in the creative field.
Absolutely. And, and I, I think, you know, talking to my publisher and really kind of crafting this message, one of the things that came to me, uh, very early was the importance of this message because I think that the world needs more creative entrepreneurs. We need more people that can solve problems creatively, whatever industry, because that's where the, that's where the need is and that's where the, the gap is, if you will.
That's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers, you. And don't forget, Profit First for Creatives is live via Amazon. Link below. And that's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers. And don't forget, Profit First for Creatives is live via Amazon. Link below.
