CIA to LA: Stories Worth Telling | Meredith Woodruff

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Arcadia, Oklahoma. Beautiful lake, couple of frisbee golf courses. You know, it's a nice place in Arcadia. Joining me today is Meredith Woodruff with Spycraft Entertainment. Meredith, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Thanks, Chris. So you didn't start your career as a movie producer or consultant, correct? No, that's true. What did you do before that?

My primary career for 30 years was as an operations officer with the CIA.

That would be the Central Intelligence Agency, yes?

That's right.

Okay, so you were a spy.

Well, technically, yes, I was, but technically, technically spies are the foreigners with whom we work, that we recruit, who we recruit, and that work with us. So we laughingly call ourselves spymasters, but yes.

Okay, so you're a former spy master. Okay, I can go with that. So I know that you have many fascinating stories and hopefully we can weave some of those in here because I heard you speak a couple of weeks ago at an event. And as I was sitting there, I'm like, I've got to interview this person for the podcast. I'm like, because you said, oh yeah, by the way, I do some consulting in Hollywood and we've got some former colleagues of mine that formed this production company, and that just perked my ears up. So why? Why get into the film business?

May I correct you on something?

Yes, please. Correct me as many times as necessary.

We don't consult. We're not consultants, largely because there's no money in consulting. Sorry. I was a consultant, however, on a couple of the Bourne movies, and that was a long time ago. So this is We are executive producers in this new iteration of ours. I did not start this company. Okay. It was started by two of my former colleagues. Both of them worked for me, John Cypher and Jerry O'Shea. And about 6 years ago, they were sitting at a bar in Northern Virginia. Jerry had just retired with a group of our former colleagues, and talking about how unrealistically Hollywood portrays espionage, the world of espionage in every way. And they got to talking later on and said, "You know, gee, I wonder if there's any way we could, without doing the consulting piece, because we all are asked to do that." And that is— Consulting is usually, you know, is he holding the Pistol the right way? Is the badge blue or green? You know, what is this?

H is in the closet?

Yeah, that kind of thing. So saying, you know, we have so many stories to tell that are never portrayed realistically in film, either TV or movies. And when we get together, when spies get together, we talk. Spy Masters. Spy Masters, yeah. When— I'll just shorten that now and just call ourselves spies. When spies get together, We don't talk about that kind of thing. We talk about— We talk about the fun of it all. We talk about mistakes we've made because, you know, our agency and our group in our agency, the Clandestine Service or the Directorate of Operations, are the collectors of last resort. If no one else in the government can access someone who has information that our foreign policymakers are interested in, or to do something without showing the hand of the United States, then they come to us. Then we are tasked with that. So we fail a lot. And we talk about that. It's truly mission impossible. And it is just up to us to figure out how to get that access or how to do something. So, so those are stories that just are not not told. There are a lot of stupid things happen, a lot of things that are just never shown on TV or in films. And we'd like to portray that. We have always been taken aback by Hollywood's presentation or Hollywood's idea of what the spy world is like. You know, it's usually shootouts and fast car chases and fast women and everybody's sleeping with everybody. And none of that is true. About 99% of our officers never carry a weapon, ever. Now, I did because I did war and I was what we call a denied area officer. I worked only in countries where the local government was chasing you or terrorist organizations or whatever. So I did carry a weapon. But I know John and Jerry, Jerry only when he was in Afghanistan or Iraq, but John never. This is a real mistake on the part of Hollywood. But we thought in our naivety, "Hey, Hollywood would like to see what's the real thing. We'd like to hear what's the real thing." And while they do like to hear about it—

You know what Hollywood does, right?

I know, I know, I know. And, you know, when Hollywood loves to hear about all of this, when it comes down to the writer actually writing the script that's going to sell, they believe that it's got to have the car chases and the gunfights in it.

So have you had any success in producing anything?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And this is another issue about Hollywood and trying to get into Hollywood. Yes, we have 3 movies that have been been taken by big-time producers with actors, and a children's show or kind of a teen show, and two limited series also. So yeah, for that. And let me talk about just a second why I got into it. So Jerry and John did what they did. They were thinking they were going to do this, and they had some introductions into Hollywood. And In one of their very first meetings with a group of producers, they were trying to pitch a story and get somebody to buy into it. One of the people that they were trying to— the studio people they were trying to sell to said, "I'd like to see the— hear about the women's perspective on this. And really, I'd like to see a woman be the hero in this rather than a male case officer." And And they said, okay, we'll give you, here's the women's perspective. And she said, no, no, no, no, you can't give me the women's perspective. You're men. Where is the woman that works with you?

Right.

And they said, oh, she just couldn't be here today. And then they walked out and called me and said, they lied, called me and said, you gotta do this and help us out. So that was 5 years ago. So we've been working ever since.

So, okay, give me some names of these movies or shows. No. Have they been released?

No, they have not been released. Oh, okay. That's what I was getting ready to say. So, Hollywood grinds very slowly sometimes, unless you've got a big name actor and a big name director and a big name writer with you, which a lot of shows do, of course. Then those will be made very quickly when it's a sure thing for a studio. But when it's not a sure thing, they will take it, take your story, take your script, take whatever, even with a writer, and sit on it until they're ready. They think the time is right and ready to produce it. So that's where we are on these productions.

So do they have a requirement to produce within a certain period of time?

Like, Yes, they will hold that for whatever it is we contract with, whether it's 5 years, 3 years, 1 year, whatever. So we have what we consider to be the very best script that we have had by a writer who is very well known, um, and a director who has taken that. We only gave him a limited time on it, and so that's ready to come back now, and we have some other takers for that. That, we think.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Excellent. So I'm thinking, you know, when I think spy movies, the OG is James Bond. And going back to Ian Fleming's novels, and, you know, the novels, when you read them, are markedly different than the movies. They're much more low-tech. They're much more I don't know, they seem more real. I don't know if they are or if they're not, but they're distinctly different from the movies. When I think of some of the stories you told, I'm like, well, that sounds like a good movie, right? Mm-hmm. It's not what you would traditionally call a spy movie, maybe, but it still sounds like a good story. Have you met any resi— I guess what I'm saying is, you have plenty of material, right, from your experience.

Oh, yeah. Right. Among the three of us, we've got 100 years of spy work.

Right. So any of your stories involved in these?

Yes. We have one that we're pitching now, and we have two studios that are very interested in it. That is a story of mine. I think— I don't know if I mentioned it when I was speaking the other night, serving in an unnamed African country, but the film would not be set there because it's very hard to film in Africa. But the story is my husband and I serving in a country that was undergoing both a civil war and then a coup attempt. And at the time, we were running assets, we were recruiting people, we were trying to figure out what was going going on there because the US government's interest was very high. And it was a Soviet— at the time, it was a Soviet-controlled government. And that's why we were there, was to take that down. But the issue and the central point of this movie is the coup begins, roadblocks go up, the city becomes doubly dangerous, and our children, 3 children, are caught in our home, which was across the city from where the embassy was. And we weren't allowed out of the embassy after a certain time. We had taken care of our assets and went back and couldn't get to our home. And they had taken our— this was before cell phones and that kind of communication. They had taken our radio communications down. And so we were separated from our children for 3 days not knowing whether they had survived, they not knowing whether we had survived. And the rebels had landed, were using an airport that was about a quarter of a mile from our house, shooting mortars out of that over the house. We knew there were marauding rebels trying to go through all of the neighborhoods, breaking in, robbing, doing all kinds of things. People were being murdered right and left. And we didn't know whether our children were alive or not. Out for 3 days. And that makes for a hell of a story. A good movie. Yeah. Good story.

Okay. I'm going to put a pin in this and then I'm going to come back. You said it was your job to take down the government. That sounds a little bit more like implementing policy than providing information on policy.

Well, When we say that, what we were doing was providing information so that our government could do what was necessary to cause that government to fall. And if that government fell, then the Soviets would be out of that country.

I see. Okay.

So we weren't there like—

We want to clarify—

killing people or taking people down. No, you're right. That's a good distinction.

Well, there's this prevalent myth that CIA is full of assassins.

Very much a myth.

I would assume that if there were assassins, that those would be, you know, honestly, completely compartmentalized from any government agencies that could be tied to it.

Well, here's, here's what happened. Let me just quickly do a little history of the CIA. Um, in the '50s, '60s, uh, we have always served at the behest of the president. You know, we are the only intelligence collection agency that is not, uh, working under another agency. You know, NSA is, is Department of Defense. FBI is, uh, Justice. You know, All of us, most are under defense, and we are not. We serve directly for the president. So back in the '50s and '60s, the president used the CIA— presidents, not just one single president. The presidents used the CIA to carry out whatever foreign policy they wanted. You look at Chile, you look at Iran, they take down Cuba, all of that. And so there was lethality involved. I wouldn't Not assassination per se, but certainly lethality. After the Phoenix Program, which was basically an assassination program that was managed by us but not carried out by us in the Vietnam War. After that, in '74, there were big Congressional committee hearings and the oversight committees, both in the House, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and in the Senate, the Senate Committee on Intelligence, the SSCI and the HPSI, because they control our budget and because as a result of that, we report to them on everything we do, basically. It was decided very clearly that the CIA would not have that capability at all. And in fact, that was— and so you can mark from '74 on, no lethality. And in fact, as I was growing up in the agency, I came in in '81 and went out in about 2010. It was very clear that if there was going to be any, any chance at lethality at all, or even physical harm, it had to be reported. It had to be part of the operational design. And if that were the case, you weren't going to be allowed to do it. But then the drone program came along with Afghanistan and Iraq, even Iraq and then Afghanistan. And we found ourselves kind of back in the arms of lethality. And we reached a point in, I can't give you the exact year, I would say 2005, maybe for, after 9/11, saying, you know, that's not our business. If there's going to be lethality, that goes to the military. That's what they do. And you saw that in, for instance, in the takedown of Osama bin Laden. Mm-hmm. That was our design. Our, a couple of our officers went in with it, but it was the Navy SEALs who did the actual takedown and the killing of Osama bin Laden. Right. So we don't, we don't do that. And if there is any, if there's any chance of any physical harm for our operations, it has to be under the signature of a presidential finding. So in other words, the president has to personally sign off on that operation. But we also have Constant, constant oversight by both the House and the Senate. Their staffers sit with us. My last 5 years in the agency, I guess, I was on the Hill weekly, sometimes daily, reporting how we were spending the money of the American people on operations.

Okay, so I want to go back to your story that you're trying to pitch. How much of that story can you tell with the nondisclosure agreement that you signed? Like, is your NDA very broad?

That we signed coming into the agency, you mean?

Right.

Yeah. The agreement is that we won't write or or produce anything with media without the permission and the oversight of the CIA. So anything that we do, we send through the CIA first before anything can be agreed to. And they check it to see if there's any classified information in it that, you know, but we've been doing this for so long and we were all three very senior officers, we know what we can do and what we can't do. But it absolutely goes through what's called in the CIA the, the publication review board, the PRB, which I used to run. So I know what you can say and what you can't say.

What kind of things can't you say?

Sources and methods.

Okay. But like location?

Depends. For instance, this story that we are not going to set it where it was set, actually for logistical reasons. It's very hard to make that kind of film. But you don't want to do that because then people will speculate on who was involved and names and all that. So it'll be set in a very, very different location.

So, see, I think maybe if you just say undisclosed country.

No, no, no, we don't like that. That's goofy. That's goofy. No? Okay. People don't. Hollywood didn't like that. They want a place.

Well, and that goes—

Oh, can I say one more thing? Hollywood, right? Well, we'll talk about that later. I was just going to tell you some of the strange things you have to be aware of in dealing with Hollywood.

Well, that's actually where I was headed because I Speaking to other people in the film industry, not with your background, there is this sense that with the change in technology and streaming services and COVID and the movie theaters almost going out of business and just like all the shifts that have happened, that Hollywood has become uber— conservative.

Let's call it risk-averse.

Risk-averse. Okay.

It's a term we use.

Yeah, very risk-averse and more formulaic. Like, if this worked, we're going to change the time period and the location.

And we're going to do a thousand Transformer movies and the— Right.

Or we're going to remake movies. Right. So talk about your experience dealing with that.

We wanted to go to Hollywood to bring a new view.

Something new, right? Which is the antithesis of what they want.

But, you know, and people always say, ask us, the first question people ask us is, "Well, what's been on TV or in the movies that's really good that depicts?" Well, nothing. That's why we're trying to do what we're doing. So, I mean, there are certainly shows that have parts correct, But not, you know, there's been nothing made that conveys the world of espionage as it truly is. And we think much more interesting than the formulaic, you know, somebody's gonna be shooting somebody else and driving fast cars and sleeping with, you know, whatever. Yeah.

I mean, the elements of a good story don't really have anything to do with that.

No, they don't. And our business, and you've heard me talk about it, our business is a business of relationships. And that's fascinating. What makes people commit espionage? What kind of lives do you have to live to do— what we say, we are ordinary people asked to do extraordinary things. And those things that we do require all kinds of abilities, first of all, to determine motivations, to figure somebody out. People don't— in the movies, it seems like foreigners are committing espionage for money. Well, I don't ever want to recruit somebody who's going to do it for money. You've heard me say this. Because there are 14 services from other countries standing behind me that can offer more money. And then you run the risk of having somebody who's playing everybody. So, you know, so you don't want to do that. Those things, that motivation is rarely explored. And the getting there is rarely explored. You know, there's no more intimate relationship, we think, without romance, without sex, than the relationship between an operations officer and and that person that he or she is developing and moving toward recruitment. Because ultimately what you are doing is you are helping someone to convince himself that he will be able to stay safe and alive and commit a capital crime.

Mm, yeah.

Because if that person is caught, because, you know, we only do strategic intelligence. We don't do tactical. That's a military or an FBI kind of thing. What we do is strategic intelligence, which is we collect on plans and intentions.

Mm-hmm.

So the people who have that make no bones about it. This is espionage. It is a capital crime. Or, or they're betraying their, their organization in, in terms of terrorism. So, so what we are doing is using everything in our personalities to help that person to convince himself that he's, he's willing and able to, to do that. That's a relationship that is incredibly intimate. Incredibly trusting. And, uh, you don't ever see it. It's fascinating, though.

Do officers ever second-guess targeting an asset? Like, "Man, this person is really vulnerable. I don't feel right about taking advantage of the situation," or—

Of course. Yeah, of course. Because our first absolute priority is keeping that person safe and alive and productive. And if, and if someone has that kind of vulnerability that you feel like you have to, um, do a whole lot of manipulation or take advantage of someone, that's not the relationship you want. We are not in it for a one-night stand. We are in it for 20 years of working together. And, and you need to be sure of of everything about that relationship. And if it's tentative in any way, don't do it.

What would you say the most realistic portrayal of espionage in a movie has been?

Or— Interesting. Interesting. I'm always asked that question. And I always come back to— to two old American movies. Okay. One is Spy Games, Robert Redford and Brad Pitt. Have you ever seen it?

I think I have, but I don't remember it.

Brad Pitt plays what we call an access agent to Redford. Redford plays the spy, the case officer, CIA officer. Watch it. It's really, it's very good.

I think I've seen it, but I'll go back and watch it.

And it has some subplots in it that are very realistic too. And the second is Robert De Niro's Ronin. And Ronin is about a non-official cover officer. You know, we have two kinds of COVID that we use. We use government cover, and that's what I and my partners lived under for 30 years. We were— and this is no secret, I'm not sharing any secrets with you— this— we were covered by the State Department as American diplomats. So we served overseas working in an embassy. Being officially covered. If we're caught, then we're declared persona non grata. Now, our assets may be killed, but for us, we're declared persona non grata. The other kind of officer we have is a non-official covered officer, and he or she will be covered in whatever— you know, we use cover to gain access. So we just don't make up cover. You know, there's a reason we don't use teaching as covers, you know, is because what kind of access are they going to get? Right. Nothing. So you craft covers to provide whatever kind of access you need or ability you need. So we have a whole cadre of officers that we don't talk about much, non-official covered officers, and they're all over the world. They're usually foreigners who have American citizenship as well. And, um, And those officers, if they are caught, they have no diplomatic immunity. They're not diplomats. They're business people or they're whatever it is.

Yeah. Okay. That raised an interesting question. Can the president grant citizenship? So like if an asset says, I'll play ball, but I want a US passport.

We rarely, Rarely.

But they have that authority.

No, they don't. No. Well, now this president, who knows? But no, that what you can be granted is permanent resident alien status, a PRA status that can be granted. So in other words, you could bring people to work over here, but we make it very clear at the beginning, that's a It's a very rare thing, and it's only granted in really rare cases.

Any bringing them here and giving them a new life, witness protection type stuff? Does that actually happen?

Well, think about it. We have a great television show about this. We call it— we don't call the television show this. We have an office that that resettles folks that we have brought over and protects them. So whatever we think is necessary to protect that person who's cooperated with us. It's very rare though.

Okay. I want to go back to the Hollywood and the resistance that you're meeting there.

So— Can I say? Let me just say. We came into this probably at a bad time because we came in and COVID struck when we started doing it. And COVID, and I mean, you know, that changed the face of every industry, not just Hollywood. But, you know, people went out of business. They didn't want to talk to you about, you know, whatever. There was a whole version of risk involved in all of that, mainly financial. Then when that ended and we started really gaining ground, the strike—

The screenwriters.

The strike hit.

And then the SAG.

Man, did that hit. And that changed a lot of things because it meant money. And consequently, a whole new landscape that we were having to navigate in terms of what will What will the— What will Hollywood bear in terms of money? Now, luckily, we are not asking for big productions. But one of the things it did do that we were saddened by, because other countries— The BBC, for instance, does this beautifully, and that's historic dramas. And there are so many wonderful spy stories that are historical. You know, even in the '60s, the '70s. And this Hollywood now is largely unwilling. I mean, think about what's on TV. Very few shows are really able to do that because of the money that it takes.

That's kind of my— Well, okay, so ballpark, what are you thinking a production budget on one of these films that you're pitching is?

Mid-range. So that's 5 to 10 million.

Okay. So have you considered producing them yourselves?

Well, that's why we call ourselves executive producers, because ultimately, we would like to move into that arena. But we need to get some things on film and show what our stories are before we do that. But there's some— interesting cautions now that it's very different talking with foreign producers, European producers, for instance, studio companies, who are really willing to take on the political nuances, the everything else that we'd love to see in a show, versus Americans who, don't want to touch that. Right. Don't want to touch it. They don't want to make anybody mad. They're very conscious of all the political stuff, which is too bad because it adds so much interest and reality to all of this. Plus, we can't make Chinese bad guys because that's the audience for Hollywood right now until today. And Trump said this morning or last night, I don't know, what, that we weren't going to be sending any American movies to China anymore. I could hear Hollywood. I haven't talked to anybody today. I could hear them going, "Oh my God, what are we going to do now?" Because that's where the money is.

Yeah. I remember them talking about when Maverick, Top Gun 2 came out, how there was some flag that was on Tom Cruise's jacket.

Had to be changed.

Yeah. Yeah. Because they knew they couldn't get it distributed in China. Right, China. Yeah. Which I was like, wouldn't have even thought about that. All right, give me a horror story of Hollywood. You can, I mean, you haven't signed a nondisclosure agreement on that, so.

Well, I mean, I'll give you one. It probably doesn't sound like a horror story because it's going to lack detail, but we had a great story. I mean, a true story that was a terrific story. And when we When we talked with the writer, and that's what we do, we start with stories, or we'll start with a writer and say, "What are you interested in?" Or even a production company. You know, what's your— Because we are genre agnostic. I mean, we'll do anything. We'll do comedy, we'll do, you know, children's shows, we'll do whatever. And, you know, the spy genre has a lot of kind of sub-genre too. So we will always say, "So what are you interested in?" And this writer and production company wanted to have just a really good story about the cooperation among governments in terms of doing spy stuff. So, oh man, we had this great story and it had a lot of true stuff in it because all three of us, as I said, were executives and we worked those, what we call liaison relationships. So a couple of days ago, they've got it ready to pitch now. And so we go into a practice pitch and it has nothing to do with reality or what we talked about. It's all people in hand-to-hand combat and shooting each other and being chased by bad guys, and it's like, "What? What? This wasn't— We gave you this great story." But, you know, we're not— It's not our production. It's their production. And we have to realize that, that regardless of what we want done, the final product, until we can really be there as hands-on producers, is theirs.

Yeah. So have you written any? You've written some scripts?

Yeah, we do.

We do. But you personally?

Well, we don't write scripts. What we'll write is the storyline, you know, the whole piece, and then give it to writers. You need to have a writer on, a real writer on scriptwriting.

You fit that bill because you used to be a teacher. You were a teacher in your former life, an English teacher specifically.

I did. I did used to be an English teacher. But here's the thing. I used to be chief of recruitment for the agency, too. We write, we ops officers write, we figure about 4 hours for every hour on the street because when you have meetings with assets, you're the only one in the room.

Right.

So that has to be reported very clearly, very succinctly. One of the first things we do with applicants is test their writing skills. And I don't mean just, is their grammar correct? I mean, can they write? Can they write with flair? Can they write accurately? Can they write with understanding? And can they capture nuance? Can they, you know, all of that. And so we are a whole organization full of excellent writers.

Hmm. Okay. That's a byproduct I wouldn't have expected.

And if you can't, you will not succeed.

Yeah. So all three of you are good at writing?

Absolutely. And storytelling.

Yeah. Well, of course.

But that's how we train also. We train through storytelling. Tell me more. Well, you know, what do you do? I'll give you an example. As a female officer, I am— well, particularly when I was coming up in the agency, I was always the only female officer in a station, in an office overseas. So, and in that world too, living in the Middle East, working in different places that I've worked, the targets that you're going after have seen those movies. They expect any female spy to be ready to jump in bed with you, to do whatever. And of course, first thing you have to do is make that clear that's not happening. And it doesn't happen. But it doesn't happen because that officer is schooled in how to deflect that.

You're disavowing honeypot operations.

Oh my gosh, absolutely.

Okay.

Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, in fact, just a couple of weeks ago, man, I pulled back a screen, a script, because the implication in the script was this female officer was sleeping with a target to get at him.

There was one series Homeland. No, it was about a Russian program of—

The Americans.

No, no, that they were all trained.

Oh, Red Sparrow.

Yes.

Yes. Red Sparrow by one of our colleagues. Great book. Great book. I'm not saying the Russians don't do that. The Russians absolutely do it and they are called sparrows. Okay. We don't. It's a matter of those. But those, those women that the Russians use are not officers. Okay. They're simply traps. Okay. And they do it. They do it all the time.

But the CIA doesn't use traps.

No, and not like that. I mean, why? Because what do you gain from it? You know, what do you say? Okay, so you compromise somebody and you say, and you say, okay, I've got I got 8x5 glossies here, and I'm gonna show them to your boss and your wife if you don't do what I want. What does that say to that guy you're trying to get information from?

It's more of a stick than a carrot.

It doesn't work. It's what I said. We want agent relationships that are gonna last years, that that person is going to be— It's a relationship of trust, not a relationship of I'm blackmailing you. If I hold a gun to your head and say, tell me what you know, what are you going to do?

Well, you're going to— you're going to— well, I don't know, might lie. You're going to tell them what you want they want to hear.

That's exactly right. Yeah. Which doesn't make for the truth. No, not necessarily.

No. Which is why in general torture doesn't work.

There you go.

Yeah. Because, I mean, and I would assume that there are ways to psychologically manipulate people to get information that was non-torturous. Like, I mean, but—

Like what?

I don't know what that would look like.

They tried it. MKUltra. Do you know what MKUltra was?

No. Tell me, tell me more.

MKUltra was a program for the agency during the 1950s looking at the possibility of having mind control drugs. LSD came out. All of that didn't work.

Is that the one where people jumped out of buildings?

No, not people. One guy.

Okay, well, he was a person. Okay. You guys weren't involved in any of the— I don't know if it was the CIA or the FBI. I think it was the CIA. And this is before you were there. But the— well, maybe it wasn't. The whole seeing clairvoyance, like being able to identify locations of people or things.

FBI.

FBI? It wasn't the CIA.

Okay.

I can't remember. Do you remember the name of the program?

No, I don't. But I'd heard about it.

Yeah. It's like some weird shit. Yeah.

I mean, yeah. No, wasn't us.

Weirdly accurate too. But then you never hear all the inaccurate. It's kind of like the—

Yeah. One in a thousand. And so we'll publicize the one in a thousand and say it worked. Clear victory. Yeah.

Well, I look forward to seeing one of your films soon. Hopefully you can get somebody off their ass to produce it. But do you have any final thoughts on this topic, your journey, advice?

Well, the positives about dealing with Hollywood is it's a lot of fun. You know, we talk to interesting people and They talk to us. We have great conversations. Be aware if you're going to try to conquer that world or even make strides into it, that there are things to hold you back. Money is one of them. They're very, now, very, very conscious of that. And even political risk. As we evidenced with, you know, nobody wants to make the government unhappy, this government unhappy. Nobody wants to make the Chinese unhappy. So, and that's, you know, it's a huge audience. And it's a very different world now with streaming, as opposed to television, where every writer was guaranteed, you know, 23 shows and a good season and could actually support his family that way. And now, even when he's on, or she is committed to a really great miniseries, he gets to write 8 shows. Right. So what are you gonna do the rest of your year to pay for, you know, your living expenses? So, you just have to be very conscious of that. I think having investors in your pocket is really important. We've been very lucky in that way. So— So, good luck, folks.

Yeah. That just reminded me of one of the local Oklahoma writers had this great story. It was a period film set back in the Civil War. And it's basically a mystery. But they find this cache of Confederate gold. And I don't remember the whole story. Anyway, he went to go pitch that, and they loved the story, loved the idea, and they said, "The lead would be great with Channing Tatum." And this guy was like, "You're completely missing the boat here, what this movie is about." Like, you know... Yeah. Yeah.

Don't even start me on the choice of actors.

Right. But they want a guarantee.

Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing. That, you know, they— Hollywood wants certain things. If you can— We are pitching a movie right now that has a great, well-known actress attached to it. And doors are opening like crazy because she's on it.

Is she the right actress for the deal?

Yes, she's absolutely the right actress.

We're very lucky. Not Channing Tatum?

No, it's not. Okay.

That's probably good. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message. And let me know, and we'll get rid of Meredith. Until then, thanks.

Tata for now. Bye-bye.