Claire Thompson: What Got You Here Won't Get You There

Well, I mean, it'd probably be helping my friends, providing income opportunities for my friends, honestly. Yeah. And for my family. You know, I think about the daily struggle of the things that we do all day, every day. And my work, my businesses have given me an opportunity to provide a lifestyle for my kids and exposure and opportunities to new ideas and new thoughts. And I'm so grateful for that. So that would probably be my greatest rush. I also love it when a surgeon calls and asks a question that I can answer and they go, oh, Oh, okay. Yeah, no, that would work. That's a good idea.

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

This is Christian Brim coming from the Dream Big Studios. I have with me Claire Thompson. Claire, give us the 2-minute rundown of your business. What do you do?

I have a couple different businesses. Advanced Surgical is a distribution business in the medical device space. We provide medical devices, equipment used in surgery, and disposables that are used in surgery. And we also provide service. We sell service contracts to hospitals and have technicians and salespeople that support those, our various product lines.

Awesome. Tell me a brief history of your entrepreneurial journey. When did you start? How'd you get into it?

Yeah, so I think I was born into it. I definitely have always had the can-do, will-do, I'll figure it out as I go mentality. I resisted the word entrepreneur for many, many years. Why? Uh, felt used car selfish to me. Okay.

Um, a little pretentious, maybe?

Maybe, yeah. Or a lot pretentious, maybe. Um, so French, it sounds French. It does sound French. Maybe that was the problem. Um, yeah, so I resisted it, but I knew that those traits, I knew that if ever I wanted to start a business, I could figure out a way to introduce people to people or people to things and provide value. So when I decided to leave a company that I was with and start my own business, kind of felt a little awkward at first, but I knew immediately when I started hiring people, I saw value in not just the products we were supplying to hospitals, but also the value it gave to my employees. And that felt good. And I think that is what I grew up hearing. Okay. I remember writing my dad's obituary, and one of the things that was important to me to include was that he provided income opportunities to a lot of independent agents across the United States. And I think that resonates with me too.

Okay. I love that. Yeah, I think we—

I don't know.

I don't know that you forget it, but it usually is secondary when most entrepreneurs think about the impact, they think about the impact on their customer and the marketplace, but not so much on their employees and their families, but definitely it's part of the equation. Okay, so what study did you choose to discuss today?

Well, gosh, I found both very interesting. Probably the pleasure-pain pathway. Oh, okay. I thought was a little more interesting. They both are.

Okay.

But as a mom, I don't think anything trumps my children, so.

You noticed that all of the participants in that study were men. Yes, I did notice that. No reason to do this test.

They didn't birth those children. No.

Mm-mm.

No. Okay, so summarizing that article, essentially it talked about the dopamine cycle in the brain, the addiction cycle. I clarified with Pish after my last interview of what is an addiction. And clinically speaking, it's, it's any behavior that's, that's uncontrollable or destructive. All right. So, you know, the dopamine cycle, all kinds of things give us dopamine. Some are good, some are not, some are agnostic. But the article goes into discussing how that cycle might affect entrepreneurs specifically around being addicted to entrepreneurism. All right, so what jumped out for you in that article?

My first thought went to delusional. And, you know, I think to start a business, you have to be somewhat delusional. You have to buy your own bullshit.

Can I say that? Yes, you did. You just did.

All right, so I think there have been times certainly that I have overlooked challenges maybe ignored them and believed so much in the idea or the value prop that I was willing to take the risk that maybe others that were more thoughtful—

Yes.

—might not have taken. I think that was where my mind immediately went. Delusional.

I love that. Yeah, I do. They like to call us visionaries, and some of us like to call ourselves visionaries, but I think the flip side of that coin is not based in reality, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm, yes.

I don't think anybody would start a business if they actually sat down and thought the downside.

Yeah, I think back about when I started my business at the ripe age of 20, I wasn't even 27, I was 26. I had 2 young children and I'm like trying to replicate that thought process in my brain and it's not there. Like I don't see, I don't get it. So no, I think there's definitely a different mindset for most entrepreneurs that goes beyond rational behavior. For sure.

I think there must be something familial too. We must have— A genetic component? Genetic component. Yeah? Yeah, I've thought about that a lot.

I think you may be right. You come from a family of entrepreneurs.

I do. I'm the only one that's ever been employed. Oh, well. And even extended, I mean, I think I can think of maybe 2 cousins that have been employed. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I think, I think there is a definite family bias. Now, I don't know if that is genetic or if it's just you grow up in it and see it and it's a nurture thing. I think, you know, definitely culture plays a role in that. You come from a Lebanese culture, so lots of entrepreneurs in that space. I'm, I'm a mutt. I don't know what, what cultural influences I might have had.

There's a great book called Thou Shall Prosper that was written by a rabbi that discusses Jewish principles and how they play into financial success and business success. And being Lebanese, we just share a border with Israel. So a lot of the cultural aspects are probably similar. And in my family, it was a lot about that and a lot about providing opportunity for other people too. Yes. We're providing for our families. And so if you could look at it from the aspect of that you're doing this not just for your own, your own good, but you're doing it for your family and your community and your employees, and boy, that feels a lot better.

Yeah, I think if all you ever chased was your own financial comfort, I think it's probably an empty chase. Right. Okay, so back to the study. Delusional, you said. How does that tie into addiction for you?

Hmm. You know, I think about my sugar addiction. Okay. It's easy for me to overlook it at times and realize that, you know, not think about the health aspects of my sugar addiction. Right. So I overlook that. So I kind of become delusional at times and convince myself that it's okay. Okay. Even though I know in my heart that it's not. So that's how I tied it together.

Well, that's interesting because I don't remember that. I don't know if the author did make that connection and I just missed it, but that is a very intriguing thought because I guess you could say entrepreneurs have an addictive personality. Yes. Um, uh, usually compulsive, sometimes obsessive, but that extra I'm not living in reality component can definitely contribute to addiction. I, you know, the, the author kind of talked about this idea that people could get addicted to entrepreneurism, like the, the the process of it. Does that ring true for you?

Well, it must. Um, I've owned 4 businesses, and, um, so it must. Only 4? Exactly. I think ideas is what I'm addicted to, and then how to, how to, um, you know, bring them to fruition, you know, how to solve problems. And I think that's what I'm addicted to. I want to be a resource. I want to, um, yeah, I want to be a problem solver.

Yeah, and you can't turn that off. No. Like, I hate it when I encounter anything and I'm like, this is stupid. We could fix this. Yes. And it's 24/7. Yeah. And it's, and like, especially with my wife, when she wants to tell me about her situation and I'm like, I'm on it. I already got the, and it's like, no, I don't want a solution. I just want you to listen, right? But you can't turn that part of your brain off.

You cannot.

Constantly. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? So you talked about being addicted to ideas, maybe. So, so I think the thing that I struggled with, with this, the paper, was I couldn't really tie in the dopamine addiction pathway to a lot of entrepreneurial things, right? So there are a lot of very uncomfortable things about being an entrepreneur, right? And I don't think the dopamine addiction cycle applies to any of those things. So like, you know, I don't wanna work 70 hours a week, but sometimes you got to, right? But that's not pleasurable. It doesn't give me dopamine. It doesn't, it's not like getting hooked on sugar or heroin or whatever, right?

So the dopamine to me would be being a resource and providing a solution. It feels really good. Clearly I like to be needed. Yes. And so I think it feeds that for me. It feeds my need to be a resource, to be needed, to provide a solution.

So do you, again, this conversation is about layman's understanding of psychological or psychiatric studies. So we don't know the answers to these questions, but I'm going to ask you anyway. Knowing full well that neither one of us know the answer to this, but do you feel like you get the same rush, physical rush from sugar, say, as you being a resource? Someone calls you and you are able to answer their question and help them.

I think it's greater. I think being a resource is a greater rush for me personally.

Yeah, I would agree with that. In my experience, like that, I know the dopamine cycle because we all eat and that's a dopamine release and it's not the same as, to me, as the satisfactions that I've received as an entrepreneur. So I guess I would say that I don't know that the author was not an entrepreneur, but I'm just guessing he wasn't an entrepreneur in writing this. That's probably right, yes. Right? Uh-huh. And so he's kind of like looking at these two pieces and saying, can you fit 'em together? And I guess my answer would be, I don't really think so unless it's, you know, you've heard about serial entrepreneurs, people that just have to start a business and the, the rush of an excitement of something new. Yeah. And I definitely—

the newness is definitely important to me. I think that for me, it's not about starting a business. It's about solving a problem. And, you know, several times it's been a problem that I personally have had or my business has had. So I just figure out a way to solve that problem and that creates a new, a new opportunity. Right. So I think that that is definitely true. But you know what just popped into my head as you were talking is kind of like a new relationship or an old relationship. You know, when you are needed or desired or, you know, your partner comes to you and has a need that you can fix, there's a dopamine rush there too. It's very similar.

Okay, that's an interesting connection. Yeah, wow, I don't know. I'm gonna have to bring Steve in here and put him on the third microphone, see what he has to say about that.

I'm sure he would have thoughts.

Oh, I'm sure. And they would not be our thoughts.

No, they would not be, turns out. Yeah.

So in your experience as an entrepreneur, how has this potentially, this rush, addiction, whatever, and let's not say an addiction, this feeling, this positive feeling, been detrimental, not worked in your favor?

Yeah, I think our working hours, you know, I think I also feel like I need to do it all and fill a lot of roles that I probably don't need to fill anymore, but I get a rush from some of those. And so, right, so I'm addicted to showing up for those too, right? So I think that's detrimental. You get, you know, you get stuck on an idea too that can be detrimental. One of the a movie that I loved, and it's called Flash of Genius with Greg Kinnear. I haven't seen it. It's like, I don't know, 2010-ish, maybe 2000, maybe a little earlier. Um, he was a professor and he invented the intermittent windshield wiper. Okay.

And then very critical piece of technology. Totally.

Yes. He watched his wife's blender and that's what made him think, oh, wait a minute, there are different speeds on that. Anyway, so, um, he, he mentioned it to somebody. He lived in Detroit. I mentioned it to somebody with one of the big 3 car manufacturers, and they— he says they took the idea from him. Okay. Um, he spent years going through the court system, the legal system, and he lost his family because of it. He, um, but he was so focused on winning that battle. Yeah. And proving that, you know, he wanted credit for it. Yes. For that design. He wanted financial credit, but he also wanted the world to know he was the one who invented that. Um, and so, uh, you know, he was willing to to take it all the way, I think, to the state Supreme Court, or maybe it was the U.S. Supreme Court. I don't remember. But eventually— I don't want to ruin the movie for you, but spoiler, spoiler alert.

Okay, go ahead.

Yeah. Okay. All right. So he, he did win the battle, but in the process, he lost all that time and resources, you know, with his family and wasn't able to support them financially during that period of time. And it was years.

Yeah. Now, I can totally relate to that. Uh, not, not really on a— well, I don't know, not to that extreme in my personal experience, but definitely I, I, I can see where, uh, the, the passion, the obsession, the compulsion of the business, uh, can have negative effects on your other relationships for sure. Absolutely. Where did this feeling give you greatest joy?

The dopamine feeling. Mm-hmm. Problem solving.

So what was your greatest win in that world?

An example of it? No, no.

Think back.

What's like when you replay that highlight reel and say, "Oh yeah, that one was a good one." Well, I mean, it'd probably be helping my friends, providing income opportunities for my friends, honestly. Yeah. Um, be my— and, and for my family, you know, I think about the daily struggle of the things that we do all day, every day. And my work, my, um, my businesses have given me an opportunity to provide a lifestyle for my kids and, and exposure and opportunities to new ideas and new thoughts. And I'm so grateful for that. So I— that would probably be my greatest rush. I also love it when a surgeon calls and asks a question that I can answer and they go, Oh, oh, okay, yeah, no, that would work. That's a good idea.

Yeah, so that feels really good. To clarify, the brain surgeons call you, right?

Yes, actually, yes, they do.

So it's not like brain surgery, it's higher than brain surgery, right? That's what level we're talking about.

It's a very slim, slim slice of the spectrum. Narrow application, right?

Yeah, absolutely. All right, okay, so I'm gonna switch gears here and ask just some more general questions. About this mental, I don't wanna say it like mental health, self-awareness, mindset. Tell us a little bit about that journey for you as an entrepreneur. Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, for many years there wasn't a lot of me time. Mm-hmm. And so that's difficult. Mm-hmm. And you know, every month I have to, you know, figure out, okay, how am I gonna make payroll? You know, 'cause that was always the priority in the beginning. Yeah. For sure. And so, So, you know, that's an added level of stress. And I employ some of my closest friends. Yes. And so I worry about them a lot too. So that adds another complexity to my business. But I also trust them and they've been with me for many years. So that's worked out well for me. So I think the pressure I apply to myself is great. And, but I think I, um, was taught, you know, resilience seems to be a trait that's really needed in, yes, in entrepreneurship. And, um, that was something that we talked a lot about as a family growing up and just, you know, bootstrapping it. And so I, I definitely have that in me.

So, well, so, okay, so let me ask you a question. Did you ever reach a point where you realized that resilience, uh, was not working for you? Like that was not sufficient?

Well, when I ruminate over something that's not working, I have to stop myself and realize that why I'm doing this, and I'm doing it for a bigger picture and not just income, although it's been wonderful that way too. But I think that I have to remind myself, and I go back to that book that I mentioned, You know, it's, you're doing it for something greater than yourself and your personal income. You're doing it for other people and providing, you know, a resource and real value to your customers, to your employees, to your community. And I think that helps me. Okay. Grounds me back to, you know, whatever I was worried about seems minute at that point. Let me, let me. It's not what you.

Yeah, I'm gonna rephrase the question. Please do. Okay, so how are you, different than when you started from a self-awareness standpoint? Oh, okay.

Well, I'm more confident, so starting another business would not scare me quite as much. Definitely gained confidence. I think I'm more aware of the value I can bring. I'm also acutely aware, more aware of the downside, so I wouldn't be quite as delusional probably in a new venture. Yeah. I'd wanna, yeah, spend more time with the CPA like you.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking, I started my flight training to obtain my private pilot's license at age 52. And I remember after that very first flight, trying to decide whether I wanted to do it, kind of pausing and thinking, whereas the younger me wouldn't have because I knew how much work it was gonna be. And I, you know, in the past, I would jump into things without really giving a lot of thought or even knowing like, oh shit, this is, this is a lot more than I thought it was going to be, right? Uh, and so I, I have that awareness now of, of being more— I don't want to say cautious, but just really thinking through, is this what I want to do?

Absolutely. Yeah, that's definitely true for me too. And now I realize the preparation it takes, and I actually try to prepare a little bit, where in the beginning there was none of that. Yeah, it was figure it out as you go and Fly by the seat of your pants.

Well, continuing the flying analogy, I remember about 3/4 of the way through my flight training, I was on a cross-country by myself and hit turbulence. And I literally was saying to myself, get me the fuck off of this plane. Like, I want out. Right? Right. And saying to myself, I'm going to get this down. I'm never going to fly again. And what happened? I couldn't quit. And even though I knew in that moment that I probably would not continue flying, I had to finish what I started, right? Yeah. And I think that's just mad, crazy behavior, right? Like, but the way it showed up for me in my business was, I had been in charge of marketing in our company for several years, only by default because no one else knew how to do anything and I knew just a little bit, right? And so, and you know, we tried third-party vendors and agencies and just really struggled with that. And it got to the point where I was like just super stressed because I couldn't figure that problem out. I couldn't figure the problem out, but I couldn't let it go, right? Right. And it's like the rope's burning your skin, but you can't let go. Uh-huh, been there. And so it was like, no, I finally had had enough of feeling that way. I'm like, I don't know what the alternative is, but it's gotta be better than this. Fortunately, I say fortunately, in that year, this is last year, we had the worst marketing performance I'd ever had. Like we spent more money than we ever had and got less results from it. So it was kind of like God was saying, I have to beat you over the head to let go of this damn rope, right? But I was at a point was not only was I miserable, I was also like, It's not working, dude. I mean, you've got to let go. Have you had any similar experiences around your tenacity? Oh, absolutely, yes.

Mine have been trying to manage the service side of our business as well as the marketing side. And I can't do it all. You can't? No. Shocking. It turns out, no, I cannot.

There's just one of you.

I can climb Kilimanjaro though. Yes, you may. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Trying to be in, you know, several different markets simultaneously just doesn't really work. I, you know, thought about, is cloning a possibility? But— Teleportation, maybe. Yeah, maybe, maybe. But— So how did you handle it? So, you know, hired more people. And, you know, I always cringe a little bit when I add fixed costs, but, which technicians are. But, you know, our salespeople, our marketing people, are, you know, commission-based, right? That, you know, it's easier to hire there. Yes, a fixed cost. But, um, yeah, um, hired there, hired, um, tech support people, technicians, and that's turned out to be, you know, another revenue stream that's actually going to benefit us.

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What— why— well, I'm going to assume something in this question, but why did it take you so long to get to that point to hire them?

Thought I could do it.

Okay, even though, you know, the laws of physics say you can't be in two places at the same time.

True. I just thought there were enough hours in the day that I could do all of that and, you know, get home and fry it up in the pan.

Going back to delusion. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. So yeah, that tracks.

Yeah, I get it. Um, you can see why I went there. So, um, you were a member of Entrepreneurs Organization for several years, um, were in my forum. Reflecting back on that, um, how did the— that experience, either forum or EO in general, um, affect your mindset, self-awareness, mental health, positive, negative, you know, whatever?

Well, you know, it— I guess misery loves company. Yes. Um, I, you know, spending time with and communicating, you know, sharing ideas and thoughts with other entrepreneurs, business owners who had similar issues, you know, always is comforting. So I guess I would say that what EO brought to me was the camaraderie of my forum mostly. I didn't, as you know, participate very well in the bigger picture, but I think that that's really what it brought to me. And inspiring stories too. There were some inspiring stories that kind of made me think, okay, what more can I do here?

I remember Maintaining all confidentiality, I remember a couple of moments that you had specifically and that I experienced where, you know, someone's telling you their experience and their story and you're like, "Huh, I had never really thought about that," right? You make this connection between their experience and yours, even though we're not talking about our problems, right? That to me was when it was really powerful.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's invaluable. Yeah. Yeah. You want to elaborate on that? Well, what comes to mind is a lot of the personal things that people would bring personal concerns to the table. And some of those were very relatable for me. Sometimes relationships, your significant relationship with your spouse or significant other, my— in my world. And, um, you know, what they understand and don't understand about being an entrepreneur and, um, and the pressures that we face. Yes, those were, you know, yeah, yeah, I get that.

Yeah. Was there, was there a time when it wasn't like, okay, yeah, you, you and I are sharing the same boat here, we're going through the same experience, but like, to use a really bad analogy, you saw how someone else was using the oar and you said, "Oh, I hadn't thought about holding it here or trying that." Any insights like that?

That's a great question. You know, some of the, I'd have to really think about that, but mostly using other people, you know, being willing to give up some of the control and, sharing responsibilities, especially for people that I visit with, not just EO but outside people that have partners, because I haven't— well, I have a partner in my insurance business, my brother, and, you know, leaning on them more. I think it was something that, you know, we talked, we talked about in EO and other places, and I thought, I've got to really start working on that more. And everybody, you know, really define roles better than I have in the past, because, right, yeah. I had no training. None of us did. So yeah, so kind of that EOS design, you know, right, would have been more helpful for me.

You're talking about Entrepreneurial Operating System, right? Okay. So yeah, like, you know, you talk about hiring people. I haven't been trained in hiring people. I don't know a damn thing about it. You know, I, I can think of a lot of mistakes I made over the years doing it wrong. But yeah, I mean, like you said, The entrepreneur doesn't have a formal education that an MBA does, or, you know, all of these tactical things that go on in a business— marketing, finance, you know, HR.

Yeah, self-employment taxes, one of the first things that— I mean, you know, my first year in, I didn't know that I needed to be an S corp, right? Um, and so, you know, an attorney set it up for me, and we set it up as an LLC because That's what you do here.

How much did that cost you?

Quite a bit. Yeah. A significant amount of money.

Yeah. We talking 6 figures or no?

Not 6, but high 5s. So yeah. Painful. Yeah, enough that it got my attention. We were an S corp the next year.

Yeah, wise. Yeah. Yeah, I think the thing for me is that that community aspect is, having, you know, EO for me, but like every entrepreneur needs a community because there's, we're so few and far between. Like if you take your circle of everybody you know, you know, there aren't a lot of entrepreneurs, right? And you, as we've discussed in this brief conversation, we think differently, right? And You can't go and say those things to your spouse because they're probably not an entrepreneur. And if at best you're gonna get a blank stare, at worst you're gonna make them more anxious, right? Like, you know, you can't talk to your employees. Right. You know, your friends in your social circles are like talking about Dancing with the Stars and you're like, I— Got nothing. Yeah, I got nothing, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how have you found an alternative community since you left EO?

Yes, well, I have some very close friends who are mostly men, ironically, that some of them are business owners. One of my closest friends is a serial entrepreneur and he's—

Like Post Toasties? Frosted Flakes? I'm from the wrong time.

Cocoa Puffs, sorry. He calls me his little sister, which is kind of, yeah, about how our relationship is. Patronizing? Yeah, no, no, that's about, I think it's accurate actually. Yeah, gives you a visual. And he's great to bounce ideas off of. And Steve also is great, Steve Estenbae, and his friend group, a lot of those guys. So I surround myself with super smart people. And then the surgeons I work with, a lot of them actually are owners of businesses also. They don't really run them, but they are, you know, they started hospitals and MRI centers and different things. So they've been a great resource too, all, you know, throughout my journey. And then, yeah, so mostly those people. I talk to my brother a lot. Yes. And I still keep up with you and with, with Matt Davis and a few people that, that are helpful.

So yeah, I think thinking about the You know, the mental health aspect of it, I think one of the biggest challenges for me over the years is getting it out of my head. You know, just talking about it, you know, that sounds squirrely, but I think you could go to a professional counselor, but they're not an entrepreneur. No. And they're gonna look at you like, you're worried about what? Right. You know, it's so interesting.

I have this very close, tight-knit group of friends that we were pledge sisters from OU, and they're 18 on a group text all day, every day. And when we gather, our conversations are so different because almost all of my conversations socially at work are all business related or personal issues. I don't really talk about Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift. That's just not some part of my everyday life. Life. But boy, when I get together with those, that group of girls, it's amazing. Um, one of them sent a video around the other day of Bosworth describing when Barry Switzer came and recruited him to his high school. And it's just so fun to get outside of the entrepreneurial mindset too, because I spend all my time there. Um, and growing up I did as well. It was just what our family, our family dinners were all about— ideas and problem solving and business.

Yes, I wrote about that in my book about how, you know, I similarly was in a family business and the, you know, the part about it I loved was that there was this connectedness that everybody had and the time that everybody spent together. But the downside was that there was no line, there was no boundary.

Right, no boundaries.

It was just, your, your personal problems follow you to work and your work problems follow you home. And, and of course, I was a kid, but you still pick up on it and like you kind of understand that like it's a weird dynamic.

That's actually, I think, the greatest downside of being an entrepreneur is that there, there's no off switch ever.

Well, I think there isn't naturally. I think, I think I've had to intentionally put those speed bumps in place. You know, I just got back from Phoenix. I went to go visit my friend from one of my pledge brothers that was actually in my wedding, and he left Oklahoma City about 10 years ago. And I went out there and spent time with he and his wife and his two teenage daughters, and we played Phase 10 and Skip-Bo and— How fun. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, It was very refreshing. He's not an entrepreneur, but he's a business person. So we had things to talk about like that, but we didn't spend most of our time talking about that. We talked about family and we talked about God and faith and, you know, it just, it was a different level conversation. Oh, how refreshing. Yeah. Yes. But it was intentional. And I'll be honest, the only reason I went was my wife was, uh, going to be out of town, and I was like, well, I don't want to sit at home by myself. So I, you know, but I kind of made that decision that now whenever she's gone somewhere, I'm going somewhere just to, you know, do something different.

I bet it filled your cup.

I bet it really did. Yeah, it really— it was 3 days, and it was, you know, it, it was novel, which that also intrigues me. Absolutely. Going new places and seeing new things and eating new things and talking to new people.

New conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's energizing.

So tell me about Kilimanjaro.

Oh my gosh. It was— set out to— during 2020, I just started— I could not go into operating rooms, so I couldn't be the one in surgery all the time. So I just didn't know what to do with myself. So one day I went for a walk and I came back and I'd looked down and I'd gone 10 miles and I did it again the next day and the next day. So I was doing 10 miles a day, 5 days a week for months. And I decided to do the Grand Canyon with a friend who I also work with and one of my dear friends. And we did the Grand Canyon in a day, the Rim to Rim. And that, you know—

Which is an awful name, but that's a different story.

They need to rebrand that. We do need rebranding on that one. But it sure is a fun challenge.

Yes.

So I decided I needed more challenges. Now, how much elevation change on the Grand Canyon? I think that, you know, I'm not gonna get this right, but the upside I think is like 5,500 maybe. Okay. But you know, you have to go down first before you can come up. Right. So it's a very challenging route. We did North Kaibab Trail to Bright Angel Trail and it was, our GPS devices said 27 miles. We did two little side hikes, one to Ribbon Falls and another. And so it said 27 miles.

Okay, so let's contrast that. So you accomplished that. Yeah. Now you say, I gotta do something else.

Something else. Yeah, so now I've got it in my, you know, I gotta go do these things now. Right. So I've got a list.

So Kilimanjaro.

So Kilimanjaro we did 6 weeks ago and there were 4 women from Oklahoma, 16 of us total. And we did 5.5 days. We did the Machame route and it was 5.5 days up and 2 and a half, or a day and a half down.

So what elevation change was that?

5,500 to 19,341. Ooh. Yeah. And how many miles? Yeah, you know, I have not added up the miles 'cause you go up and down the way they climb acclimatize you. Like, the first night we spent the night at 9,000 feet, and the second day I think we went up to 13,000 or 14,000 and spent the night at 12,000. The next day we went up to 15,000 and spent the night at 13,000. So you're going up and down to acclimatize. And then the last night before the summit, which, um, we got to that camp at 16,000 feet at like, I don't know, 3 in the afternoon or 4, I don't know, and, um, had dinner and visited, and then we went to bed about 8, and they got us up 11 PM and we left to summit at midnight. And we summited before daybreak. We actually made really good time and summited before daybreak and did not have any problems breathing.

But, you know, nobody got altitude sickness.

There were a couple people. Well, yes, we all had some sort of issue, but nothing. No, we all summited.

We all— And so, so your, your next hike?

Yeah, I don't know if it'll be my next, but I've got several on the list. I read a book called Beneath a Scarlet Sky during COVID also, and I mapped out some of the escape routes for people that were leaving Italy trying to get to Switzerland during World War II. Okay. And there are huts that the Allied forces built in the Dolomites, and I kind of want to do that hut hike. Well, that sounds cool. Yeah, pretty cool. And then Machu Picchu is high on the list and Rainbow Mountain, which is in Peru also. And then I want to do Mont Blanc.

Any chance Steve will go with you on any of these?

I'm trying to get him to. He is kind of interested. He has not read the book, but he is interested. Interested in the Hut to Hut hike. Yeah. And he did say the other day the Mont Blanc is interesting to him. He's not interested in Machu Picchu for some reason, but both my kids are.

Is he interested in putting in the training?

That's the big question mark. I did buy him a Peloton for Christmas, so I'm, you know, trying to encourage that a little more. So we'll see.

My brother Nathan, he went earlier last year. Um, Kalanchoe? No, last year. Yeah, it was, yes, it was last year. And, uh, He'd trained for many months and lost a lot of weight and was so excited, and he got altitude sickness and couldn't finish the summit. Wow.

Well, I wonder if he took Diamox. Do you happen to know? I don't know. Yeah, that is key to Kilimanjaro.

Well, I asked him, I said, "Well, don't they give you oxygen?" He goes, "Yeah, you can get oxygen, but then they make you go down. You can't go any further up." Right. And so he endured it for like a day, vomiting, diarrhea, headaches, and I'm like, I'm like, uh-uh, no.

Yeah, no, that sounds miserable. There were like 3 people, maybe 4, on our trip that were not well, and none of them had taken Diamox, but the rest of us all had. So they, they started taking it then. I think we were 15,000 feet maybe, or a little higher then. But, um, the minute that— as soon as they started taking it and it got in their system, they were fine.

I don't even know, what is Diamox?

Um, it, it deals with— I'm not exactly sure, but, um, yeah, we're not scientists. And they use it in neurosurgery, they use it in ophthalmic surgery. It reduces the pressure, the your intracranial pressure. Okay. And I don't know exactly how it works, though. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And it does work, but it does— there are side effects. So you get tingling in your hands and your feet, and it comes on like kind of a sharp tingle, and it comes on and then goes away pretty quick for me anyway. But some other people had other issues. They thought maybe it made them nauseous, but I don't know. I didn't have that problem. Yeah, interesting. I will take it if I go above 14,000 ever again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I mean, elevation is no joke. Yeah, you know, people, people don't really— but I mean, you know, anytime you go up into the mountains, you're gonna go ski or whatever, I mean, it doesn't take very long to, to get short of breath.

No, it does not. But I do think a lot of that though plays into that psychological, the dopamine rush, the, you know, I, I liked the chat, I like challenges, sure, and I like overcoming the challenge. And sure, so So I think this plays a role. I took the kids and ran with the bulls in 2016 in Pamplona, Spain, but I take calculated risks. I go in and I look down, and so I might not be as delusional as I once was. You know, we rented a balcony at the Running with the Bulls one year, and we watched to see how you can do it without having real risk. And so we did it that way. We can still say we ran with the bulls, but we—

How close was the bull?

The bull was not close until we got into the arena. Okay. And then my boys were close to the bull in the arena, probably 10, 15 feet away from the bull in the arena.

Well, they've got too much testosterone, so they don't know any better. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, definitely. Any other thoughts on this topic, either the study or mental health, mindset, self-awareness in general?

Yeah. I think I read a great quote about shame the other day, and I think when things don't go exactly like we've convinced ourselves they might, it can be really upsetting. We can feel shame, especially if you have to let employees go or downsize, or there's a lot of shame involved in that. And I think talking about it, having a group that you can share those thoughts and feelings with is super important. Yes. Yeah.

It's, it's, it's again, it's, it's, I, I think, and this, this just makes sense that because there are so few of us in the population and we don't always do a good job of connecting with each other, uh, it can be very lonely being an entrepreneur and, um, just being able to express those thoughts and those feelings and have someone say, Yeah, I totally understand. You know, I mean, when someone passes away, you've got everybody, you know, friends and family that you can talk to about your grief, but that's not always the case with entrepreneurs and the intense emotions that they have. Absolutely. Shame, fear, anxiety, dread, you know. Right.

Right. Yeah. And mixed emotions about happy times too. I mean, it's fascinating how— Guilt? Guilt, yes, yes.

You know, a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with that. Like, I'm making too much money. I shouldn't. Right. You know, I don't deserve this.

That's challenging. Yeah. And you don't have anybody you can talk to about that.

Yeah. No, 'cause you, yeah, I feel really bad that I made this much money and I had to go on this trip or buy this car. I feel awful.

No one wants to hear that. It's interesting how many entrepreneurs downplay.

Yes, and then the few that overplay. Yeah, there's a lot of that too. Yeah, I think, you know, I said this before, I think one of the biggest challenges for me as an entrepreneur is I never really quantified success. Financially. And that's a whole nother topic and a whole nother story as to why. But the problem with it is if you don't quantify it, like put a number to it, you never reach it. And therefore you're never satisfied with what you've done. Right. And as entrepreneurs, there's always someone that is making more money, has a bigger company, has more employees, you know, growing faster, whatever. And it can really set you up in a bad headspace if you're like comparing, you're always comparing yourself to somebody else because you don't have a real clear idea of what success looks like to you.

Right, right. I did start early on trying to figure out what my need would be, my exit strategy need. Yes. And so I've kind of had, you know, some numbers in my mind. Right. They've evolved. Yes. But that's been something I've focused on for a long time. And, you know, now that I'm 55 now, ooh, and I'm thinking, you know, okay, what's the next act? Because I cannot sit still. Yes. So, you know, at some point in the future, I'm going to want to exit this business. Yes. Advanced Surgical, not the insurance business. But, and when that happens, you know, I've wondered, What does it look like next?

Yeah, and I was just introduced to a book yesterday. I have not read it. It's called The Second Mountain. And it's essentially like the first mountain in our lives is the worldly one, the professional, the financial, the whatever that is. But then after we've either succeeded or failed at climbing that mountain, there's this second mountain that's more altruistic, more meaningful. Right. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's one of the beautiful things is that if you're successful as an entrepreneur and you do it the right way, you can have that to give you the capacity to go to the next mountain, right? To say, okay, I can start with a blank slate, and what do I really want? What do I really want to do? Because I don't have to make the money, right? Um, I don't need the accolades. I don't need the self-esteem, right? You know, like, right, what, what do I want to do?

Yeah, yeah, we're lucky. Yes. And we took the risk that got us here. Yes. So I'm grateful for that. Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, right now it's hiking for me, and, um, hopefully at some point in the future it'll be grandchildren. And, you know, oh, that's—

that'll be here before you know it.

I sure hope so. Yeah. Sorry, boys.

Yeah, they're not going to listen to this.

Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.