Coaching Isn't Optional: Francie Jain

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Francie Jane of Terawatt. Francie, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Christian. It's a pleasure to be here.

So why don't you tell the listeners, uh, who you are and what you do?

Yeah, so I, um, I'm the founder of Terawatt. Um, I'm actually a multi- career changer. Um, I used to work in finance, uh, did basically like matchmaking for hedge funds. I raised institutional capital for hedge funds, and that was a great career.

Okay, sorry, I'm just interjecting my opinion.

So my best— the best use of my talents is one of my things is like matchmaking. And so like, I'm really good at creating relationships. So that was a great job, except that there were just a lot of a-holes in the space. And so I sort of—

that's why I said that sounds awful, but yeah.

But otherwise, I mean, trading is interesting to me and like the strategies are, I mean, everything was great. It was just some of the interpersonal stuff was hard and I'm not great at office politics. And so I was interested in starting something on my own and, and had this idea for helping people have access to expert coaches. And so initially the idea was that I heard statistic that it was like in 2016 that, um, something like 10 million manufacturing workers had lost their jobs since 2000. And I thought, wow, that's a lot of people. Is that true? And so, A, that is true, um, but B, actually the peak of manufacturing was 1944. So any really time series you look at, you can like talk about how many manufacturing people have lost their jobs because any memory we all have of like manufacturing being a big force in America was like all— it all really culminates with like World War II and sort of putting everyone to work and the infrastructure project. Anyway, so all to say that like, yes, that was a big number. And I thought, wow, well, and I researched— it was true, somewhere between 5 million, 15 million people at that time. But I think this is always going on, right? Because there's always a switch from from manual to automation. And this has been going on for the whole world. So it's not like, you know, printing press used to be the people wrote, hand wrote stuff. So I thought, okay, well, who's helping all those people? That's a lot of people. And if you typically think about manufacturing, it's not people who went to college. So high schools don't have career services. You know, they're not, they're not places that like help people. So I was like, wow, I got, I was just thinking like, that's— that must be really kind of tricky. Or like, wouldn't that be interesting? I love to like see what people are doing to help those people. Because the reason I started thinking that is as I've switched careers, my family and friends always like freak out. You know, they're always like, what are you going to do? How's it going to work? Oh my God. You know why? You know, like all the whatever, all the negatives. And I always am such an optimist. I'm like, oh, it'll work out. You know, I'll figure it out. And I always did. And it was fine.. But I think that, like, my sort of takeaway is that unless you're really trained to kind of be an optimist and see the forest for the trees and have strategy and a plan, you can get really bogged down by everyone else's fears. Anyway, so my point is, like, wow, wouldn't it be cool if people were able to access these coaches? Because it would really help them out. And I've, in my past, you know, employed coaches more for, like, individual problems than like over, let's say, a 6-month span. But they were really helpful to me. And so anyway, I had this funny memory where in business school, once everyone realized how wholesale and retail works, where you could like, if you could get like 20 people together, you could buy things cheaper. They started like every week there'd be an email like, hey, we all band together, we can get these leather jackets for like, you know, 80% off. And it was like every week. And so there's almost like a joke in my mind of like, oh, we all band together. And so I was just— and so I had this thought, well, wow, actually, if like, what if we got a bunch of people who are in the middle of a career transition and we connected them to coaches and then they could— if it was like 10 people, let's say they would each pay 10% of the coach's rate and they could learn from the coach and it would be a lot more affordable. And I had this idea and I pitched it to a coach and the coach was like, yeah, I'd do that in a heartbeat. And I hadn't really thought about coaches' needs. And coaches need leads. And so there aren't a lot of great spots for coaches to get leads, especially really thoughtful coaches who care about their reputation and stuff like that. And so that's how this evolved. And the idea really is the goal is to help people find the joy in their heart, find the exact perfect spot for them to be and have access to expertise. That really helps them be the best they can be and like whatever that is, right? Like, you know, one of the things is that even if you are improving in work, that will help you at home and vice versa. So, you know, my joke is like you take yourself wherever you go. So anything in the area where you're improving yourself or your skills, that helps the other areas. So that— and so that's sort of the initial like goal of the business.

Yeah, I quote a, a '80s song by, um, uh, Social Distortion, I think, uh, in the negative. So it's, you can run all your life and not go anywhere. Yeah, it's the same, same thing you're saying there. Um, so, so how long have you been doing this?

So the, that additional, like, so the, the germ, you know, the, the twinkle in my eye was 2016, and it sort of taken a while to turn it into like a business. So now we're a B2B business. We have almost like 100 coaches. And I'd say this current iteration is about 1 or 2 years old. The coaches meanwhile have been working 10, 20, 30 years on their expertise. So it's more just the, the my side of it is kind of new. And, you know, one of the things I'm starting to realize is that like a lot of people with group coaching, they're kind of like, why? That's just a nice luxury. I don't need that. And what I've started to realize is there's a lot of research connecting psychological safety to low employee turnover. So any organization or even industry that has a high turnover rate is a really good— would benefit from coaching and anyone who's teaching psychological safety. And so that I've been sort of angling a lot on reducing turnover. And so I've been going after different industries that are organizations that have high turnover?

Yes. You know, I don't remember. I think the title of the book was The Dream Manager. Are you familiar with it? I may be getting the title wrong, but it was essentially a company. I think they were in the janitorial cleaning space, commercial cleaning space, and had a whole bunch of turnover. As you would expect in a business like that. And they created this internal position to essentially be in charge of helping these individuals achieve their dreams, whatever they were.

Yes. Yes.

And that it significantly reduced their turnover. And I think in this day and age, we've reached a point— I'm of a certain age that work was different for my generation, maybe yours. I don't know how old you are, but it was something to be expected, something to be appreciated from the employee standpoint. Obviously, that has morphed. And not to say that my generation's take on it was right or wrong, but the younger generation, generations, my children and the ones that would be my grandchildren coming into the workforce, that's not their goal anymore. Like, work is not, I mean, the be-all end-all. Career is not the end, be-all end-all. And so, you know, you've got a generation or a workforce that is looking for something more from their employer than just a paycheck. And I think we as entrepreneurs have to be cognizant of that. We have to You know, right or wrong, that's the expectation. And those are the people that are applying for the job. And, you know, you ignore it at your own peril because you're not going to hire any— you're not going to get anybody if you don't give them these things that they're looking for. And I think what they're looking for are the right things. They're looking for meaning, purpose, fulfillment from their job where you know, that wasn't the thing. I mean, you know, you did the work, you got a paycheck, and that, that, that was the relationship, right?

Right. True. Well, I will say there's a lot of research on that. Yes. And one of the, um, so number one, yes, people, especially like the Gen Zs of the world, want to be aligned with the mission of their organization. So they're a lot more interested in mission-driven organizations. But the other thing that they're really interested in is learning on the job and having professional development provided by their employer. So, and the third thing that's interesting that plays into this is they have really high student loan debt as a generation. So I think if knowing those three facts as an employer, you just have to sort of solve for those. And, and we talk about this all the time with like my clients or sales calls is like, you know, that's what this generation really expects and that's the way to keep them around. And it's a little bit, um, counterintuitive because I'm Gen X and my— and always my, my sort of vibe when I was working as a young person was that my employer would say to me, you know, like, you know, not exactly say, but the expectation was any professional development was on your own time, on the weekends, after work, you know, we don't pay for that. And the sort of like subtle kind of Commentary was, why would I pay to make you more valuable? You'll just leave. And now it's the opposite. The more that you develop people, the less willing they are to leave. And that's why I love that story you were talking about, the Dream Manager, because it turns out that, like, people develop a sense of loyalty when they're being developed as, like, a person or as a professional. And You know, I think from like a, a baby boomer perspective, I think the question would be like, well, then what happens? I can't give everyone the CEO job. And it's like, of course you can't. That's not your job. Your job is just to offer professional development, offer the ability to do more, and you let the chips fall where they may. You know, you know, you only have so many spots. And then you also have to assume that there will be like an alumni base, and that's okay. And like, the better you treat people, then the more you kind of have this alumni base. And for many organizations, that's really valuable form of referral, you know, this alumni base. So I think it's just a different way of thinking about it. And it's a little bit more of like a rising tide lifts all boats than slices of pie, you know, where you're protecting what you've got.

Yeah, I don't know if it was Steve Jobs or who, I think it was one of those tech wizards that said, you know, what if we— the answer was, well, what if we develop our people and they leave? And the response was, what if we don't and they stay?

Exactly. That was the best. Yeah, that's so good. 100%.

Because, I mean, in the business environment that we're in now, it's not static. And not that it ever was static, but the pace has definitely changed. And if you're not investing in your people, they're falling behind, which means you as an organization have— are falling behind. So, you know, it's really more about if you want to be selfish about it, it is self-preservation for the company, you know, to make those investments. And, you know, in our business, I've— we've done that. I remember my head of client service had invested in a young person during college, out of college. And I think she'd been here 2 or 3 years and she took a job in industry as opposed to, you know, public accounting, which technically we are. And God, she was devastated. And she's like, you know, I poured all this into this person and they left. And it took her a while, but it was probably about a year, she came back and she goes, "You know, I did the right thing." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" She goes, "I had been questioning, should I have put all this energy into this person?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, you should have. You did the right thing, because you can't control them." I mean, You know, if this is not a good fit for them and this is not what they want, you don't want them here. Because if someone, you know, and I understand I'm not dealing with factory workers, I'm not even dealing with, you know, janitorial people. I'm dealing with professionals. And maybe that makes a difference. But, you know, at the end of the day, if someone doesn't want to do their job, they're not going to do it well.

100%. Yeah, 100%. And I think that like what I would just say to that person is, great, you did such an incredible job. Now processize it. Make it for, you know, several people a year. You know, find a way where that's how you recruit, you know, people from to your firm. And you just have to see where the— like, like, see where the chips fall. And like, also, by the way, sometimes people come back to organizations. So sure. You know, I think that like that never goes away, and but now you've developed the skill to learn how to do it really well, and you can just repeat it and, you know, find some other people to sort of put them through that process. Yeah, and I mean, it's like we have this incredible case study from one of our coaches, and it's just professional development and psychological safety and all these things that help people like communicate better and just like do their job better. There's like almost no downside.

So no, I— no, there, there really isn't. I, I, I wonder, so you're, you're doing sales to management. Um, do, do they have trouble accepting the need for coaching if they themselves are not being coached or, or have done participated in coaching in the past? Like, is it a hurdle to get them to understand the concept if they haven't participated?

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone thinks of it as a luxury, eh? Whether even if it's in line with their professional development budget for their employees. Like, one of the things that I always say all the time is like, if you're paying for your employees to go to, you know, industry conferences, you can just replace that with group coaching. You know, and they're— you actually probably get a higher return off of it. Um, and then the other thing they don't— they're not aware. And then a lot of things that they're mostly not aware of, but like one of the things is human capital investments, like 300%, 500%. I mean, there's a huge return on investment because also we have to remember like labor is like one of the top line items in organizations. So if you can get a high return on investment on developing your people, that's going to move the needle most in your organization. The thing I was going to say earlier when you were talking is the only reason it makes sense to not invest in people is if you're doing the exact same thing and you will always do the exact same thing. But if you might, you know, use a different material or you might come up with a new product, then you'd want to invest in people.

Yeah, I don't know what business that would be.

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

I feel like you asked that question knowing the answer. So—

But I've thought it through because I'm like, what would that— actually, there are private equity companies where like Firms will, they'll buy like dying businesses and like that's a play on that. And like that might be an example, like you're just like producing a widget and you're not, you are not looking to like grow in any way. You're just doing the same thing. And like, that's like a play. That's okay, that's fine. But for most organizations, I think they always want to get better, more efficient, you know, whatever, more something.

So what is the distinction in, in your mind between like executive or business coaching versus what you do? Is there a distinction?

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, it's really like, I think of it as like a big umbrella. Like, it's like we have all kinds of experts and coaches and trainers and all kinds of different things. For me, I just feel like any working with any of these experts makes you better. At whatever the thing is that you're working on. Because unless you read like the 10 books about psychological safety, this person's going to be a great synthesizer for you and be able to answer your questions and help you practice. Um, so I just, you know, I just feel like it really comes— so the way I kind of like to do it is really try to figure out what the problem is and is there a metric around that problem. So for instance, like turnover, What's the turnover rate? And like, what's the relationship of this organization's turnover rate to the industry's average, for instance? Or are there other metrics like in hospitals, like, you know, a patient experience is a number. So is error rate. And all of these things can be fixed with training, coaching, whatever, because a lot of times it's, it's a human issue, right? It's not a machine issue. So how do you help humans? You help them find ways to connect better with other humans or problem solve with other humans. But it could be like, you know, you could have a 10-week group course about psychological safety. You could have a 10-week group course about how to make better requests. I mean, you know what I mean? You can kind of like go as deep or wide as you want. And but I think that, yeah, I mean, the big resistance is, yeah, that's nice to have. We don't have the budget for it. That's probably the biggest hurdle. And what I'm always trying to figure out is like how to communicate the return on investment. And like, it's just, it's similar to like an IT investment or, you know, an R&D, you know, it's, it's kind of, especially if you work in a white collar business where ideas are kind of what drives it.

So we talk on this show about the entrepreneurial mental health, mindset. And I know that the entrepreneur is the psychological exception. They're not normal humans. We're not normal humans. How do you, how do you see coaching entrepreneurs in whatever capacity? What's, what's the different challenge there? Coaching them versus an employee?

So that's a good question. So I'm not a coach, but here's what I'll say to that is I know that as a founder, there's a lot of discussion about mental health within founders. And I think that what I really try to do is have pretty decent boundaries about like blocking off the day. So I have enough like time where I'm doing like almost nothing. And I also really try to have like a North Star. I think you can get really exhausted if you're not clear on what your North Star is.

What is your North Star?

Oh, so my North Star is I'm just trying to get this business— well, my joke is it's like a, it's like a third grader. Um, I'm trying to like grow it and get it off to college.

You're not like a third grader, the business.

Yeah, so I mean like it can eat on its own. It's like fine, you know, but it's not like, you know, working on its own yet, you know what I mean? I want it to be completely like rocking and rolling on its own. And that's sort of my goal. And so everything is for— and so in order to make that happen, I have these three stakeholders who I'm really just trying to make happy and trying to find the right balance. And like what we figured out with the coaches, so I feel pretty good about the situation there. And now it's really like really, really understanding the buyer and doing a great job for them. And so anyways, that's my North Star is just like doing a great job, being intellectually honest, you know, leading with trust, because really my whole thing is that anyone can do what I'm doing. I just want people to come back to me because we make it easier for them and it's not— it's like makes their life easier. So for coaches, they just want to coach. So bringing them leads is like incredible for them and they tell us what their rate is and then we go forward. It's not— it's like a pretty easy thing for coaches. I think it's a little bit harder on the, on the sales side. But so I'm always just thinking like, that's what I'm trying to do. And I really worked hard to make this company be intellectually honest and like not take advantage of people. And like, that's all— that's like in my gut anyway. But like, the other joke is like, these coaches are like ninjas of negotiation. I mean, you can't— you can't expect to like treat them poorly and have them stay. So I just treat them the way I'd like to be treated. So for instance, like we don't do like rigor morale, but like a lot of other organizations do, like we don't pay 60 days later or, you know, we don't— I'm trying to think what else, like anything where we can like treat them well, we do. Or for instance, if they want to get off the platform, they can, you know, we take them off 5 seconds later. Like there's no drama. They don't pay anything to join us. It's really merit-based. The contract, you know, like we don't have— we don't take their content. They own their own content. If they find clients, one-on-one clients through us, that's fine. We don't have a clawback. You know, all these different things like that. I think people have in the past done that, these coaching organizations. So anyway, that's my North Star. I just try to keep that clear so that like I don't get bog down into, oh, you know, what are the sales? What's— who's, you know, buying this week? Or this person said they're gonna buy and they didn't buy. And I kind of try to just say, okay, like, you know, just keep doing the process, keep going, keep getting smarter the next day, and just see what tomorrow brings. I— and so that to me is really important. And I think, like— and so, like, a lot of times at night, like, I'll just watch, like, a Netflix show or something, and I try not to sort of, like, push it hard because I know that, like, I could get burnt out and depressed. And, you know, you hear these really sad stories of people, you know, dying by suicide who are founders, because I think they're just sort of not seeing the forest for the trees. Like, you know, you're, you're trying to do a great thing, but you can't make other people do what you want, right? You have to find the way to, like, work creatively with other people.

Yeah, I'm going to put a pin in that because I got a comment. But I was going to ask you first, do you work with a coach personally?

I don't, but all of the people I speak to, these coaches all the time, so they're always coaching me. It's like hysterical. Yeah. So I did this one thing with one of our coaches that was a whole series, and it was kind of like learning how to outperform. It was— that was a really cool one. And it was basically his PhD was saying, listen, like every year he was a football coach. He's like, every year there are like a few kids who like go way beyond their talent in terms of like how good they get. And he was like— and then he started realizing that that's like everywhere. And like, what do those kids know? Like, what have they learned or what? And so he started trying to teach that to people. It's kind of like— it's basically like growth mindset. And so I always find that like when I'm tense, if I'm able to say, okay, like, what can I do now? What can I do today? What can I plan to do? What do I have that could maybe move the needle? And I'll try to learn more tomorrow. That always seems to work. It works for me actually in tennis. I've been playing competitively doubles. And when I'm doing poorly is usually when I'm like, God, I should have gotten that. Or God, Francie, hit it over the net, that kind of thing. But if I think, okay, how do I get the serve in? How do I get the point, the ball back better this time? That's when I play really well.

Yeah, I mean, I have as a friend and a colleague, an entrepreneur turned psychologist. He had a very successful exit and then decided to go back and get his doctorate in psychology because that's what you do, evidently. And, you know, one of the most profound statements he made to me was he said, yeah, entrepreneurs don't have very good coping mechanisms. And I thought about that. I said, yeah, I'd never heard it put into those clinical terms. But yeah, you're right. We don't. And in a lot of ways, entrepreneurs use their businesses as their coping mechanism.

Mm.

That's a good insight. Yeah. And so it's almost like what they're lacking and what I was lacking for a long time is the humility, the vulnerability to say, I don't have this. I don't. And it's a strange place to be because on one hand, to be an entrepreneur, you've got to have enough confidence in yourself and enough persistence to overcome things to even start a business. But at some point, it's, it's beyond you.. And you have to have the humility and the vulnerability to say, I don't, and involve others. And it's involving others in a meaningful way. It's not, you know, like just delegate all the shit that you don't want to do. It's, it's more of a peer-colleague relationship. You know, and then, you know, you look at people like Steve Jobs, who was a raging narcissist, and, you know, and you hear all these stories and you— people look to him and say, well, I don't want to be like him, you know, where you control all of the process and you're just beating people down. But we only hear about him because he was crazy. Like, are there other people that have been successful that weren't crazy and weren't narcissists and didn't behave like that, right? And of course you do, but you don't hear about them, right?

Yeah, well, that's, by the way, that's a media problem. Um, I actually think there's a, there's a big problem with that. The other issue in media is that they really only seem to really like to talk about people who've raised capital from venture because that's some— it's like an objective measure that people are willing to talk about. And that's not helpful either, because just because you raise money doesn't mean you're good at not being an operator. I also suspect that people that are good operators are not that interested in speaking to the media.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you— I— we could go off on this tangent, but like, you know, I, I think the VC industry is, is a, is a sickness. There's, there's a very sick, sick culture there that, uh, chews people up and spits them out, and nobody talks about it. It's like they just talk about the success stories. But then you see people, situations like Theranos, or there was a couple of other recently that I think it was Citicorp or somebody got scammed by a founder.

She falsified— That was JP— wasn't that? Yeah, I think that was JP Morgan. It was the Frank. It was that woman who started Frank, right?

Yes, falsified data. Right. And, and it's like, well, you know what, they just play. I'm not, I'm not dismissing their behavior, but I'm just like, they played the same game and the VC lost. It's not— I don't feel sorry for the banks. I don't feel sorry for the VC companies because they created this monster that does not care about the individuals. And so it's just a very toxic thing. I look at, yeah, there are success stories for sure, but they don't talk about the 80% of the companies that failed and there's just a wasteland of people.

Yeah. So what I'll say to that is, I haven't thought a lot about this. I think what happens in venture is that they really want to invest in viral companies, right? Who doesn't? The problem is you can't— even if you work 24/7 for 10 years, you— it's hard. You cannot create necessarily a viral company. I mean, some people may be able to, but the point is that virality is its own thing. It's not how much time you put in the office, right? It's like they're separate things. And so I think that— and, and that's kind of what I was thinking about when I was saying I'd really try to have a North Star, because if you really care only about dollars and the impact and like what's on the spreadsheet, then you, you're kind of missing the secret sauce to creating the situation for virality. Because, you know, for instance, like, the thing with our coaches is it is semi-viral. Like, they just come to us through referral from other coaches. And like, that was not intended. I just was trying to like set up a relationship with them that I felt good about and that felt fair. And as a result, then they were like, oh, this doesn't exist. I'm like, that's crazy. You know what I mean? But okay, so that's like a semi-viral thing that we've got going on. And that's what I'm trying to do on the other side as well, is I think the more that you're kind of tapping into either what's not there, what people crave or something, that's like an insight. And that's not a question of hours worked or how much you sacrificed your life for it. And I think that's And that's what I sometimes worry about with this Venture thing is that they're sort of desperate for virality to kick in, but it doesn't necessarily happen. You can't necessarily create it by just killing yourself. I mean, literally, or figuratively killing yourself.

Yeah. And there's no formula. Like, you're dealing with humans and you don't have any idea what they're going to do.

100%. And actually, like you said, I mean, I was laughing when you're like, founders are a different kind of person. Like, I long ago figured out, like, I'm not the average B2C customer. Like, the way I— how I look at stuff is not how mostly people do, you know, it's not the average way. And so I just— and that's one of the reasons we're in B2B right now is because I just prefer to, like, have that kind of, like, gatekeeper sale or speaking to somebody who can make a difference as opposed to, like, trying to talk to people on Instagram and get 1,000 people to do one thing. And so, but that's something else, you know, I think it's just, it's hard to make people do what you want. You just have to find a connection point where like what you're trying to do matches with what they're trying to do. And, and, and that stuff, that can be hard, but also can be really fun. Like if you're really going with your gut and like trying to bring like what your vision into the world, then that can, that can be really powerful if it's not already there. It's rare to find.

I just had this interesting analogy pop into my head as you were talking. So, um, I've, I have another podcast for my business and it's called The Profitable Creative. And we talk about, uh, we talk with creative industry entrepreneurs. And how they make money in their business. And I— my daughter, who is a figurative oil painter, uh, went to Hollywood to, to, you know, she needed— she wanted to be in a better market. And, uh, she found out real quickly the machine that is Hollywood that takes creatives and chews them up and spits them out. She had a gallery owner say, well, yeah, we'll put your stuff in our gallery, but you have to reduce your prices. And she's like, well, let me get this straight. You're going to reduce my prices and then take half? She goes, no, I'm not going to do that. But the reason that that studio could do that that gallery could do that is because there's a line behind my daughter of, of creatives that are willing to, you know, come in and get, get paid in experience bucks, right? And, um, I, I just had this analogy that, that VCs and founders are, are similar dynamic. It's like, you know, that founder will come in and, and sacrifice everything, and, and the VC is happy to take it because, you know, I mean, it, it— they know that if they fail, there, there's somebody behind them that, that is going to, um, you know, fill in the gap. And, and it's not an exact analogy because, you know, obviously the VC is putting money in, um, but it, it— I think it goes back to the human element. I, I think it's dynamic in that. And I don't know how we got off talking about VCs, but maybe I can reel it back in and tie it back to what we were talking about. But it's just this, this lack of human empathy. It's like that it is about the dollars. And, and as I'm saying this, I'm reminded of a scripture that says, The love of man has grown cold. And that's what it feels like.

Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think that— and VCs are really honest about it. They're like, listen, we make 10 investments with the hope that one succeeds. And because the one investment succeeds goes 100 times. Right.

And so And dumbass founders think that they're all going to be the one, right?

Yeah. And I think, but that's, well, what that is, one thing I'll say is like, yeah, everyone who is a founder is very highly confident. Like you said, maybe there's a sense of overconfidence. I think for me, like what I've just sort of kept doing is like, listen, like, yeah, this didn't go viral, like from the minute I decided to do this, but I'm trying to figure out how to make a nice business out of this. And it's not going to be like a get rich quick scheme. It's going to be like building something that really works for people, and then one day that'll be the highest value. And, um, and I think that like— oh, when actually I used to live in Silicon Valley, right? I used to live in, well, yeah, I mean, San Mateo County in, um, California. And we used to always laugh about my husband and I because it's the— everyone there really, there's a very like lottery ticket mentality because no one's really making that much money, but Tomorrow your company might be bought for 1,000 times revenue or whatever the thing is, and everyone gets really rich. And so that's like a different way of being. And I think that that also means you can be making short-term decisions about business and relationships and contracts and stuff. And so that's the kind of thing I really try not to do because I'm just so— like, actually, there's another thing that, like, I'm just highly motivated. By relationships. And so for me, like, I want to keep all my relationships. I don't want to kind of burn people. It's not about the numbers. And that's actually something I would say for like the mental health of founders is actually I suspect that having like a personal assessment, like whichever one you want to do, they're like 1,000, but like DiSC or Enneagram or I did Myers-Briggs in business school and even that was really, really valuable because the more that you understand what drives you, and you just start to like, like you said, it's less on a hamster wheel. What's that expression you just said? Like, you can run as fast— I forgot what the expression was.

You can run all your life and go nowhere and not go anywhere.

And the more that you kind of like know yourself and you understand your relationship to other people, or like what motivates you, it just changes your relationship to the world. And I think it also like reduces anxiety because you're sort of like, you kind of get yourself a little bit and you understand how you behave in different circumstances. And, um, so, but I, I do think that like having a coach or somebody who just understands you or your brain to speak to is probably like a really, really valuable thing for founders.

Oh, it's, it's valuable for everybody, and why I would recommend that you, uh, hire a coach, Francie. But, uh, I, I, I think that It, you know, it's different. So like, you have intimate relationships in your life, you know, your spouse, obviously, uh, you know, and a few others that truly know you and truly care about you. And those people can speak into your life in a way that others can't because they know you and they care about you. Now, I can hire a coach, and I've been working with one for several years, and I pay him, and I understand the dynamic. I like— do I think he cares about me? Yes. But it's a business relationship at its core. If I stop paying him, he's going to stop coaching me. Right. But it still gives me insight into myself, which, you know, ideally, if you had someone that truly cared about you, they could give you insight. But those relationships don't always lend themselves. Like, you know, I don't want my wife as my coach, right?

Like that.

Right. It gets messy. And I wouldn't want to coach her like that. That doesn't work. I mean, there's too many other factors that overlap, and you don't get that clarity. But to me, a coach, the best coach, is not one that teaches you skills, although that's certainly important. And I guess that would be my distinction to what you do versus an executive coach is primarily your guys— Your coaches are coaching skills, right?

So it's a whole range. Um, and, and like, this comes up all the time with the coaches because we have a bunch of like ICF certified coaches and they don't want us using the word coaching when it's training. And so we have to be like really specific when we actually get down to like what we're actually providing. But mostly it really comes down to what the buyer is solving for and what they're picking from the person they're hiring. So Like, for instance, we have one coach who's also a professor of negotiation at a university. So she might be hired for, like, training negotiation, or she might be hired to be a coach. She sort of brings herself wherever she goes, right? So you'll probably get a little bit of both. But in different situations, she's doing training versus, you know, versus coaches.

I'm thinking of a woman, and I cannot recall her name. Is she A professor at Northwestern?

No, she's at, uh, which one called Vanderbilt? Vanderbilt. Yeah. But I bet there are a lot of people at Vanderbilt.

Victoria Medvik.

Sorry. Oh, also a woman. Interesting. No, this is a different person, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I think so it really kind of depends, but the other thing I would just say is like a lot of times people say training. I, that's really kind of, it is probably what's happening, but I hate the word training because to me that always feels so black and white. It's like you're going to training, you're going to learn. Or you're going to training, you're going to learn, you know, sexual harassment training. But what we're trying to do is have sort of interactive discussions. You're learning, you're reflecting, kind of like adult pedagogy-inspired stuff. So you— like, people actually learn and practice and use their skills and learn from others and their peers. And so have it be much more engaging and like meaty than kind of someone standing up with a pointer and telling you the 10 things you need to memorize. Um, and so it kind of just depends. I mean, but one thing is for sure the case— this, this used to happen more, I get it less now— but like, if you're thinking about like one-on-one executive coaching, that's like kind of almost— I mean, it's not therapy, but it has that similar dynamic where it's like mano a mano, you're talking about me, I'm paying you to fix me or whatever the thing is, make me better. That's not what's happening in group, obviously, because that dynamic can't happen when you have 10, 5, 20 people. So you lose some intimacy and you lose some, like, attention when you switch to the group. But the— what you gain is learning from other people, hearing them talk about a similar thing. It's a little bit more goal-oriented, um, less sort of reflective, or maybe not the word selfish, but, you know, self-focused. And so those are going to be trade-offs, and that for sure happens. But, you know, like, one of the things I always think is so funny is, like, I can see this much more as, like, a financial play. You're like, oh, you're saving money, you know, more people can do it, it's all within your organization, so you're all learning the same thing, it's great. But actually what happens is a lot of the benefit too is, like, learning from peers and learning how to connect more with people's learning. And, and I remember that I had this incredible therapist, and she, you know, we did one-on-one therapy stuff, but she also had on the side like a, a group, a group session. And I remember asking her about that, and she was like, well, it's really helpful for people to realize that the thoughts in their heads are so common and that other people have the same thoughts. And, and I think about that a lot with the group, which is that Sometimes you think, oh, I've got this really hard problem, and maybe you're not sharing with other people, and you learn in the group that like everyone has that same problem and like, okay, let's work on that together and find a solution. And I just think there are a lot of epiphanies that come from hearing other people.

Absolutely. Yeah, I, I remember talking to my coach and, and I'm like, surely I'm one of your most screwed up clients. And he proceeded to tell me about another of his clients, anonymously, of course. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, maybe I'm not, you know. But no, the peer dynamic is important. And you said you didn't like the word training. I don't know where I was inspired. It was not my inspiration, but we eliminated the word training from our organization several years ago. And now it's education. And the phrase was, you train dogs, we don't train people. Exactly. Again, I don't know who said that, but it really resonated with me. And I'm like, so we don't train anything.

Yeah, exactly. I totally agree. Yeah, I think that, like, and really, I mean, the other thing I was thinking when you were speaking is there's this hysterical article in the New York Times about, like, a 100-year-old psychologist, like a therapist, and she's still seeing clients. And the journalist said, what, what's the hardest kind of person to deal with? Like, who's the hardest to be a therapist for? And she said, oh, there's just no getting over like low IQ, which I thought was so funny. And so that's what happened. So that's, that's no filter you get at a 100-year-old therapist.

But well, yeah, she has nothing to lose now.

Yeah. Yeah. I just think the whole thing in life is like what our coaches are often teaching people is like flexibility and growth, personal growth and trying to learn and do more and find processes. And that's the secret sauce for all these things is just to get out of the whole— what is that thing? Get your hand off my stapler, or who moved my— who moved the cheese, or all these things where everyone's like worried about like their little ownership, and just— and move to like a rising tide rises all boats, and let's all like have focus on like one thing that we're solving for, and like let the other stuff go. I mean, it's easier said than done, but like the more that everyone just can do that, like that just solves so many things in the process.

Francie, how can people learn more about Terawatt if they they want to know more or work with you?

Well, the best place is just on our website. We have a Get In Touch page, so it's terawatt.co/get-in-touch, and, um, that's the best way. And then if they want to— if they like social media, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, and, um, it's probably the best ways.

Perfect. We'll have those links in the show notes, listeners. If you like what you heard, please share the podcast, rate the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember, you are not alone.

Oh.