Dealing with Burnout: Victoria Mensch

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another edition of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Victoria Minch. Victoria, welcome.

Hello, Christian. I'm very happy to be here.

Well, I'm excited to have you here. I'm eager to hear your story and your experience. So tell us the story about— we'll just dive right into it. Your burnout.

Right, right. Don't I have a story? So, I am, I just wanted to tell you a little bit about myself. So, I spent most of my career in Silicon Valley in high-tech industry. So, in executive capacity, I worked in large global corporations. I worked in startups. I started my own company. I worked in a boutique consulting company. Everything is around technology and innovation and computers and disruptive technologies and digital transformation, what have you. But I started as a psychologist. So, um, out of high school, I really wanted to be a psychologist. I wanted to serve, I wanted to help people, I wanted to be a counseling psychologist. So I got all the degrees that I could. I got my master's in psychology, I got my PhD in psychology, and I started working as a psychologist as well. And then about a year in, I realized that I cannot do it anymore. It's like I made a mistake. I followed my passion, I thought it was my passion, but it I really cannot take it anymore. I cannot take one more client to counsel. So I switched, um, I switched to career and I went to corporate. So later on I actually realized that that was my first experience with a burnout. That's exactly what it was. It had nothing to do with me not wanting to talk to people, with me not wanting to serve people, with me not being interested in psychology. It was really my reaction to stress and my inability to deal with that. That, um, it kind of made me switch my career. And it happened obviously because I did not make the changes that I needed to make to deal with the stress and the burnout. It happened a few more times, and I always kind of changed the external circumstances. I switched careers a few more times from one industry to another until I realized that I really need to look at what burnout is and how to prevent the burnout, how to deal with burnout, and how to make these changes in a much more productive way.

So what are the warning signs that maybe you had, or more generally, that you're experiencing burnout?

Yeah, so I think the first sign that you want to pay attention to is exhaustion. So people feel exhausted. I felt tired. I felt tired, exhausted, unmotivated, really kind of removed from everything that was going on and overwhelmed. So that's So that's kind of a red thread among people. So that exhaustion that cannot really, doesn't really go away with no matter how much rest you take.

You can't sleep. So that's a mental exhaustion or a physical or both or what?

Well, it feels like both, right? So what burnout is, is a chronic stress reaction. So chronic stress response. So we basically, we react to some stimulus from the outside environment, and they are interpreted by our system as a threat, you know, life-threatening situation. So we get into that mode to avoid that, you know, to save, right, basically survive that life-threatening situation. But because it's not really life-threatening, we don't complete that cycle. So we accumulate that cycle, it becomes a chronic cycle. All your systems are basically in overdrive. They're always in this survival mode. And there are very few bodies and organisms and, and who that, that can really operate in that mode for a long time. So from that point of view, there's obviously physiological reactions. So whatever, however you react to stress, and it's very individualized reaction. So if, for example, if you lose sleep when, when you're in stress, then you probably will experience those symptoms as well as part of the burnout in addition to exhaustion, motivation and all that, you'll probably experience some sleep pattern interactions. If your stress reaction is to lose appetite, then you probably will experience that as well. Or the other side of it, if you crave things, usually sweet and fat, right? So something like comfort food as a part of your stress reaction, then you probably experience those as well. So it's really, so part of it is individual, however you react to stress and your organs reacts to stress, you'll experience more of that. But from the psychological point of view, it's overwhelmed, it's exhaustion, and it's lack of motivation. And actually, even in the corporate environment, why there's so many programs right now and so much attention to wellbeing programs on the corporate level is because it actually has a significant impact on productivity. And productivity and motivation, there's a, uh, the pain is real, right? The pain is real. Pain is real on the individual level, but also on the corporate and team level. So if you are as an entrepreneur, as we're talking to entrepreneurs, you have your team and they're in that overdrive mode, the chances are that they're not giving you, um, 100%. They're not as productive as they could be, uh, if they're, um, in a different state, not in the burnout state.

So you said the first time you experienced burnout, you didn't really know that that's what you were experiencing. Did you come up with another rationalization for what it was?

Right, exactly. As I said, I thought, well, I made a mistake, right? So I chose a profession that wasn't really— I thought it was my passion, but it wasn't. So then once I actually started working in that profession, then that was the reason. So for sure, it's, it's my mistake. It's, um, I'm in the, I'm in the wrong job. So that's what I did, right? So as a remedy, I switched my career. I, um, from, uh, from, uh, counseling psychologist to, uh, to, to career in marketing. So I looked at myself exactly what skills do I have, what skills can be transferred to the corporate environment. And I thought, well, it could be HR or it could be marketing. Well, HR, I'll need to deal with people again. I don't want to do that. So I decided marketing would be the way to go. Um, so you're still, um, kind of all this skills that I have and understanding what people are looking for, what their desires are, uh, and how to translate those desires into, um, how to translate those product features into something that, um, would respond to people's pain points and mitigation their desires. So that I found was a transferable skill, um, uh, my research skills, uh, also became transferable into market research and so on and so forth. So it worked out well.

So looking back on it, do you think that you had made the wrong choice in career?

Well, now I know that a lot of people, when they're in burnout, especially when you're at the point of despair, it's like, I cannot take one more day of that. Um, we think that those are external circumstances that we need to change immediately. And, um, what are those circumstances? You start blaming what's closest to you, the job, right? So job is giving me so much stress. For sure it's a job. So it could be, oh, it's a manager or it's a company, it's a culture. Or in my case, I did not have a manager. I did not have a company culture. Then I said, well, it's a job, right? So I need to change my activity. Sometimes people say, oh, it's relationship. For sure it's my spouse that's at fault, right? So you kind of, you know, you'll look at those external circumstances that are closer to you and you assign the blame to those circumstances. What usually happens in a job situation, if you quit your job— and we quit the job, right? So we quit the job. I met with so many people, I work with so many people who just said, I cannot take one more day of that. I just need to go to some tropical island for 6 months. Um, what's going to happen in 6 months? 6 months later, you're going to wake up and I'm going to say, oh, I'm bored. I need a job. What kind of job do I need? And you go the same to the same job, but you lost 6 months, right? So you lost 6 months, you lost your position, you lost your authority, and nothing changed because you took yourself with you. And the same with relationship. Oh, I'm gonna quit this relationship, I'm gonna find a different person because for sure that person is at fault, right? So what's gonna happen? You're gonna have that if you did not make any internal changes. You actually, you took yourself with you into your new relationship and you're going to repeat the same mistakes. So that's kind of the, that's where at the end of the day, that's the conclusion that I came to, that me switching from one job to another, from one industry to another, yes, it alleviated some of the acute pain, let's put it this way, but without putting kind of internal practices, internal tools and controls and changes in my mindset, I was repeating the same mistake over and over again.

As the song goes, you can run all your life and go nowhere. So what are the tools that you learned to deal with burnout? Or maybe first, like, to identify those feelings as what they are?

Yeah. So the good news is that there is a big awareness. There is a widespread awareness about burnout nowadays. So people actually learn to identify this. Oh, I am in burnout, or I burned out. It is— there is a label to condition which always helps. So, now that you have a label, you can look for solutions. And I think from a burnout perspective, it is really nice. There are lots of different resources out there. When I talk about burnout prevention and tools and practices, I really like talking about two different levels. On the first level is kind of a first aid. That's what I call it, first aid. And that's to deal with the stress. It's a chronic stress reaction. So, the first aid is really stress management tools. Now, burnout is your survival system that's kind of in control. Right. And for better or worse, that system really does not understand verbal commands. So, you cannot tell yourself, "Oh, just calm down." Right?

So, you know, That always works with my wife. What are you talking about?

Take it easy. So, um, you, it just doesn't work this way. So that system came on board before the verbal, you know, centers in our brain came on board. So the language that system understands, uh, is really a language of breath, language of movement, and the language of images, visualization. So these are stress management techniques, you know, breathing techniques, that help to complete that stress cycle and help you to switch from a survival mode to what we call the rest and digest mode. So I think regardless of whether you're in burnout or not in burnout, so whatever it is, I think that in our modern world, everybody must master stress management techniques. So you want to have a couple of breathing techniques in your arsenal that when you feel overwhelmed, when you feel frustrated, or when anger comes up, whatever that is. So you actually go back and you take that tool out of your arsenal and you do a quick breathing exercise. There's a quick breathwork session for yourself. Or action, right? So movement. So that stress cycle must be completed in some kind of an action. So if you're in survival mode, right? So that survival mode that we're talking about, it's called fight or fly, right? So you have to take an action at the end of it. You have to decide whether you go into attack mode or you go into escape mode. But there's an action, the muscular response that's attached to that. So what it means in our modern world, in our everyday life, is that if you, for example, do a quick stretch, right? So, or you do a brisk walk around the block, or you you clench and relax your muscles, that sends a signal to survival mode to turn off and switch to a much more normal and much more sustainable rest and digest mode. And the same with the visualization. So, quick visualization exercise, maybe guided meditation or unguided meditation when for a couple of minutes or a few minutes, you sit down, you breathe, and you kind of visualize blue sky and what have you. And there are plenty of resources on YouTube if you Look it up. So that's your, um, that's your first aid stress management techniques. Now, once you're kind of done that, right, so, but it's kind of like a Band-Aid. So for example, you have a scratch, you put a Band-Aid on, it doesn't heal the scratch, it just alleviates the pain, uh, at the moment.

Well, so, so when we're talking about entrepreneurs, and I'll, I'll give you my story, was this is about 8 years ago, so I was mid-40s, and, um, I, I could not stand, uh, my company anymore. I didn't like working with the people, uh, the team, the clients. I didn't like any of it. And my solution was a lot like yours, was to change my environment. So I went and started a software company because I knew how to do that. And so, you know, I, I left the business in charge of my brother, who was my partner at the time, for 2 years. And yes, my, my stress went down, strangely, even though I was stressed with the startup and trying to make that work. It was, it was, I don't know, a more comfortable stress. It was something that was easier for me to deal with, maybe not chronic. But, you know, I think, I think one of the problems entrepreneurs have is they're, they're, well, like, one, that the business they don't believe can survive without them. Right. And two, and maybe it can't. Right? In my case, it survived, but it was failing and I had to come back into it. Like, it, it couldn't continue. Um, the, the, but the other reason is this identity that, that so many entrepreneurs associate their self-worth, uh, and, and who they are with the business. And so the, the idea of changing careers is not an option, right? I guess in, in the most extreme cases, you could just say, I'm going to sell it. But most, most entrepreneurs aren't going to do that. And they can't just quit it and walk away. So I think that it becomes more acute for entrepreneurs if they can't deal with that burnout and that stress. Because they can't see any other alternatives. It's not, you know what I'm, am I making sense?

Right. No, absolutely. I mean, it's a quite, um, I don't want to call it typical, right? So each situation is really individual, like personal, and, um, you're going through your own journey and your own pains. But there's some, um, some similarities, uh, in entrepreneurial journey, obviously. And I want to expand further than that. Even if you're an employee, there's some similarities there as well. So one of those, if we kind of level up a little bit, one of those is that we tend to completely identify ourselves with a job, right? So I am my— this, this, this is the only thing I am. Um, so I am a VP of marketing, I am a founder of this company, I am— and, and, and, and, and that's a road to burnout because at the end of the day, we are a multifaceted multipassionate, multidimensional human beings, right? So it's not just a job. So if you look at the, from the research perspective, if you want to kind of experience that sense of well-being, there are all these different elements that come to that. It's not just a job and it's not just the financial stability. So there are other elements. What are other elements? Vitality, your health, right? So your, your, your sense that, um, You have the energy, you're in good health, so that comes as a part of that well-being and flourishing. Your relationship, you know, your significant relationships, your authentic relationship with yourself, with your loved ones, with your community, so that's part of that sense of well-being. Financial stability, of course, right? But it's not the only one. The sense of purpose. So what's my purpose? How do I contribute from the bigger point of view into into society, into others. So there are all these elements that, um, combined, they create that sense of well-being that we're talking about. So when you associate yourself only with the job, so I am my job, then you kind of neglect everything else that goes into that. And that's, you know, kind of leads to, to, to that acute and chronic stress reaction and the burnout. So that's what, when, when we're talking about that kind of the second level of tools that you want to master to make sustainable changes so that you're sustainably, um, not in the burnout mode, not in survival mode, but you're in a mode of flourishing, right? So that's kind of your North Star that you want to feel, um, excited. You want to feel motivated. You want to feel excited, uh, you know, ecstatic. Uh, you know, you want to feel that vitality, vitality, and that's kind of that sense of happiness.

I find that it's been the case for me and many other of my colleagues that I've known, that it's very hard to process this by yourself. That one, you may have a blind spot in realizing that you're experiencing burnout and that you're experiencing stress. I think entrepreneurs expect to be stressed. It's like, I didn't sign up for this because I knew it was easy, right? But the ability to even have someone speak into your life and say, are you okay? And be able to process those feelings, I think is critical. And, you know, I've even known people that had that community and had those relationships, but still got real close to the edge. And I don't— I, you know, it was, it was someone else's intervention that kept them from going over the edge. So what, what do you, what do you say to, uh, the entrepreneur that just says, well, this is, this is what entrepreneurship is, I'm just going to tough it out?

Yeah, so there's a kind of the status quo, right? So we have this, um, belief, which I think, you know, we can easily call them limiting beliefs. We have these beliefs that entrepreneurship has to be hard, like, why should I be happy? Why should I enjoy life? Right? So This is what I signed up for. I'm just going to toughen up. So, uh, and, um, the way again, out of that second level that we're talking about, one of the ways to get out of burnout, you actually, um, let joy into your life. You prioritize joy on the same level, uh, as you prioritize your customers or your, um, P&L, right? Or your, um, uh, employees and your team. So you do it intentionally. And as you mentioned, yes, you can do it on your own. It's a longer road, but within the community of like-minded or with a coach or with a mentor, it's much easier to do, especially in the community when other people are there cheering for you and said, oh, I did my 3 self-care activities today. And the rest of them like, yeah, way to go. So that's a much easier way to do that. That. But, um, what I like about, um, kind of these tools, like self-care tools, right? This is a way for you to replenish your energy. So you actually, um, say that intentionally, I know if I allow joy into my life, I allow happiness into my life, I know I'll be a better entrepreneur, I'll be a better founder, I'll be a better businessman, I'll be a better, um, uh, you know, I'll be a better partner in my relationship as well. So the way to do that, I really like this, is to put together a list of 20 things that you like to do. So the things that you like to do, not because somebody asked you to, not because they bring you money, not because it's a return on investment, not because it saves you time, but the only reason that to do these things is because they make you happy. And you put together a list of 20. And I challenge anyone to do that.

I'm going to stop you right there and say I would have trouble getting to 5, right? Exactly. And it's one of the things that I personally am struggling with right now is like, what do I do for fun? Fun, right? What, what brings me joy that is not outcome-driven, right? Um, play, if you want to use that word. What, what, what's, what's the thing that I do that's play? And an interesting thing I've, I've realized about myself is, uh, anytime I try something like that, like golfing or painting or sketching or pick it— I've picked them all. Um, all of a sudden I want to be better at it, and then it becomes outcome-driven, right? And then I get mad because I'm not getting better, or I'm not practicing enough, or like— and like the joy goes away. And so if a listener is like me, that's struggling with trying to figure out what do I do for fun, what's your recommendation for that?

So the exercise goes like this, right? So you put together a list of 20 things that make you happy. There is no other reason for them to exist, only to make you happy. Uh, and as you mentioned, most like, this is my experience as well. When I first started to put that list together, it took me 2 weeks. So on day 1, 2, 3, I stopped on number 3. I forgot, I forgot, I forgot what makes me happy. Uh, genuinely say, I knew what others wanted from me, how to make them happy, but I forgot what actually made me happy. So I had to go back back in time, said, what did I like to do when I was 7 years old? What made me happy then? What did I like to do when I was 16? What did I like to do before I had family and kids? Right? So I had to go back in time and I had to bring that joy to the, um, to the, um, uh, today's, um, environment. So, oh, okay. When I was 7 years old, I really I like to play tennis. Like, oh, okay, nice. When I was 16, I really liked dancing. So things like that. It took me 2 weeks to complete this list. Now it does not have to be this big thing. So it could be, I really like to have 5 minutes in the middle of the day when I'm just sitting outside, um, drinking my coffee and I just can feel the sun on my skin. So that brings me joy and happiness because, um, you know, when I introduce this exercise to people, who are burned out, there's like, I'm already overwhelmed. I'm already exhausted. And now you want me to do additional things? Yes. Yes. But those are different things. So intention is there that they make you happy. There's no other reason for them to be on your calendar, just to make you happy. And you do it like that. Then you take 3 of those activities and you put them on your calendar. If you are like me, I live and die by my calendar. If it's not on my calendar, it's not going to happen. I'm sure a lot of your listeners are like that as well. So you put them on a calendar. You put that 5 minutes outside on the balcony at 12:05 PM on your calendar. Whatever that is, your list is going to be entirely different from my list. So some people say, well, I really enjoyed yoga. I hated yoga. Or I really enjoyed swimming. I don't want to be next to the pool ever in my life. But it could be different for you, whatever that is. And you want to go back in time and say, well, I remember the times when that bring me joy. So you put that on your list. And again, for those of you— totally, I understand. So once you start painting, it's like, oh, I do it for something. No, that's the time to remind yourself that you're doing it for the process, that the process of painting— the only reason for this activity to exist is that it brings you joy in the process and it makes you happy.

All I got out of that, Victoria, is I gotta go tell my wife that I'm scheduling sex. It's going to be on the calendar. I don't know how she's going to react to that. But no, that sounds so simple. But I'm going to do that. I'm going to try that. Because, you know, like painting or golf, those things brought other people joy. They didn't bring me joy. And that's, you know, no value. I mean, I'm not saying it's good or bad or right or wrong. It just didn't, you know, as we're talking, I was thinking back about being a kid. I love to read. Well, that is one of the things that I still do. And it is something that brings me joy. I don't have a purpose behind it. It's just I like to read, you know, not, not— I like to read novels, fiction, you know. But that's a, that's a great Great exercise to go through and figure out what brings you joy.

I love it. Right, right. And I've heard others— I did not have that in my practice, but, you know, there are people who truly say that I don't know anymore what I want, what brings me joy. So, so one of the practices that I've heard was that, well, I'm going to stay on that couch until there is something that comes to my mind that I want to do instead, right? So, oh, do I want to get out of this couch? No. So do I want to get out of this couch? Yes. So you basically just follow— you give yourself 48 hours, right? And you just follow whatever comes to your mind, just a little bit of preference toward that action versus another action. So that's how you kind of start bringing back that sensation, right, sensation of joy that we totally neglect. We tend to neglect because we're just running around and chasing the next achievement.

Well, yeah, I mean, everything is so outcome-driven, right? There's got to be a purpose behind it. Why are you doing that? Like, well, I'm doing it for fun. Well, nobody says that. Like, I would feel like a fool saying, well, yeah, I'm just doing this for fun. They'd be like, why?

Yes, but what's going to happen, the what, how is going to change actually. So once you, uh, what I like about particular exercise that I told you about and scheduling these activities, so what you're going to notice, what you're going to notice is how your, um, energy levels change, how you become a much more pleasant person for yourself and for people around you, and how much more energy you have at the end of the day and how much more productive you can be. So this is undeniable. I don't know how this works. It's kind of miraculous, um, how this works. But once you start putting joy into your life, this is what's going to happen. So basically, it's a way for you to replenish your energy. You're draining your energy over and over and over again when you're saying, I have to, I have to, I have to, I have to. Um, once you start putting that joy back into your life, this is a massive, massive, um, uh, charge replenishing your energy. So you actually become a better person.

What do you, what do you say to those people like myself that would say, um, I, I, I maybe I don't deserve it, or I've got more important things to do? What would you say to that?

That's the exercise, right? So that's the intention behind the give it 2 weeks. Let's give it 2 weeks, the intention, and say, I do it because I need I do it because I need joy in my life. So basically, give yourself that permission slip for 2 weeks and you'll see the changes and you'll want to continue that. So let me tell you, so I'm now to the point that if something happens, if something, there's a frustration, there is anger, somebody, you know, cut me off on the highway and I'm like all over the place, like, whoa, how could he? The first thing I go to is not, how could he? Not there, but I go into my internal state. And my first question is, did I do my self-care today? Did I replenish my cup? And the answer is, if I feel angry, if I feel frustrated, in 90% of cases, the answer is that it's me. Neglecting my own energy cup. Right. So I actually would have reacted totally differently if I performed my self-care activities.

Yeah. And I think a lot of people, I mean, you know, I'm 54 and I think maybe for younger people it might be easier to accept that. You know, I hear that term self-care and I'm thinking it's woo-woo, it's an optional, it's you know, not a requirement, like a necessity. I think that's one of the things that the younger people do get better than my generation. Although I kind of think it's because they probably had to because everything stresses them out. So—

Yes. Yeah.

Yes. So maybe that was just an adaptation. Victoria, how do people find you and find out more about you?

Yeah, so my main place is LinkedIn, Victoria Mensch. Look me up. You can look at all this content that I put out there. You can reach out to me, schedule a call. I'm happy to talk about burnout, ways to get out of the burnout. We have individual programs, mentorship programs, the community that you were talking about. We also We also have corporate programs, uh, because as I mentioned, that pain is real and companies are losing real money because of the lack of motivation, uh, and the burnout, uh, among their employees. So we actually teach people how to, um, lead employees, how to build teams to prevent all that. Uh, and we have retreats as well. So if you want to accelerate that journey out of the, uh, kind of, you know, meh, languishing to, uh, the next level of your of your life, to reignite that passion for life, to reset the goals, to rejuvenate. So we have these retreats, we do them in Bali. The next one is coming up in April.

Where are they?

Fun? Absolutely. Okay, absolutely. Yes. So, so you can, you know, get to that next level much faster in the beautiful setting of Bali.

Well, thank you very much for your time and your insights, Victoria. It's been been very helpful for me personally, and I hope for you, the listener. Until later, ta-ta for now.