Embracing Mistakes in Business | Dylan Bost

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Continental, Ohio. I have no idea where that is, but thanks for listening. Joining me today, Dylan Bost of Sunny HQ. Dylan, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

So, uh, we'll start with what is SunnyHQ?

Uh, SunnyHQ is a— we say we're a human-first WordPress full-service business. And what does that mean? Kind of the nutshell is I had started the business about 9 years ago, believed that hosting needed to be more. Um, and meaning a lot of, you know, a lot of the big hosting companies out there, they provide pretty much just a storage unit is the way I see it for hosting. And our service is really soup to nuts, so it's full service. You come to us and we host the site, take care of literally everything technical that comes up, as well as we provide support on top of that. So it's your more, your white glove concierge view of what hosting is. We really wrap in everything that needs to happen with the website. The idea is you focus on your business, we do the rest, so that you're not wasting time with all of those kind of pesky WordPress issues.

So that includes design as well?

We do some design. It's interesting, the company is mostly focused on the support aspect. So I ran an agency before this, which was all design, design, design. So it is something that we do. And what I tell prospects and customers is we only do design work for our existing customers. And the important thing there is that our staff is really focused on the support and making sure that we're available so that our, you know, so that support Support tickets and things are done within hours instead of days. And that means we're not out there basically selling our services to build 100 websites a year. We may build 10 websites a year, maybe 8. So we keep that side of it really down and it enables us to— the work that we do is for customers that we have a really broad awareness of and an understanding of what they're trying to do. So we believe that we're better at it. We're really well suited to help them through that process.

Okay, this is going to show my ignorance. I thought WordPress websites were hosted on some servers by WordPress. Is that not accurate?

It's super confusing. So, and I don't know if I can make it less confusing, but WordPress, yes. WordPress has, well, it gets confusing because WordPress.com is like a hosted environment. So much like a Squarespace or a Shopify. It's basically you go to them, you pay them, whatever, $25, and you get WordPress. But it's a very, it's a limited use of WordPress. So it's great for blog sites, it's great for small marketing sites, but the real power of WordPress comes into play with the fact that you can, I mean, we have, for instance, we have customers that have 3 million e-commerce products, so giant websites, right? Okay. With big databases, lots of functionality. There's no limit. The nice thing about WordPress is it's a platform, but it enables you to literally literally plug in other services and things to make it do whatever you want it to do. WordPress.com doesn't let you do that. Then WordPress.org is essentially the, um, the free version of that. You download WordPress and you can build on that platform whatever you would like. So you leverage the technology, but you need then your own hosting to do that, and you need your own designer, you need your own people to keep up the site, and so on and so forth. So that's where we come in.

Okay. And so my question as you were talking there is— well, I got two questions. You can answer them however you want, whatever order. So how did you go from front of the house to back of the house, like doing the design part to doing the technical part? Why did you make that shift? And two, Who is your ideal customer? Like, who is it that would work best with you?

I'll answer them backwards. So our ideal customer, it's interesting. It's not specific to a market or an industry or even a size of customer. And WordPress right now, WordPress websites that I'm talking about run about, I think it's 44% of the internet. So it's like 80 million websites. It's huge. The reality is that's across, and so if you got a cross-section of our customer base, it's small mom-and-pops, yoga studios, dentists, lawyers, but it's on the other end of the scale, it's large multinational corporations. It's large e-commerce sites. And so the interesting thing is WordPress enables customers to build websites for far less than they used to. So it makes it available for so many different things. The reality for us is that's one, actually a challenge for us is when we talk to our customer, it's so broad. The reality is for the most part, it is businesses that recognize the value of their time. That's the way I normally say it, right? It's businesses that understand, hey, why am I spending 5 to 10 hours jacking around with these plugins or trying to figure out how that form works or literally anything technical when I need to figure out how to market my business? And that's where we come in. So it's really, you know, if you look at our customers, it's all over the place.

Is there one that you think that you provide more value for?

Probably e-commerce websites. I mean, simply because, you know, their business is so much more— I mean, everyone's business is somewhat dependent on the website being live and running, but obviously an e-commerce, somebody who's selling products, you know, even selling 5 products a day, if the website's not available or if there's a problem with it, they're not selling those products. So I think we probably have the most acute, you know, make the most acute difference inside kind of e-commerce websites. And then with agencies, we work a lot with agencies as well because we're able to plug into an agency where, and it's interesting, I know this 'cause I ran an agency, most agencies end up hosting websites because they don't have a go-to person and they would rather do it themselves 'cause they don't wanna lose that connectivity with their customer. And it's fair, you know, their customer goes over here, they get bad service, and it shows on them. So where we come in is, you know, we plug into that environment. We offer the same or even better service than they ever could, and we don't manage any of their design work. In fact, if we get questions that relate even remotely to brand and design, we shoot them directly over to where they came from. So those are good fits as well.

Yeah.

Then your second question, how did I get here? I think it's interesting. After you run a business, a marketing branding agency that is subjective for 10 years. Quite honestly, I was looking for something that was not subjective anymore. I had a wonderful experience. We worked with thousands of customers. We got all the awards. We made a lot, you know, we did some really incredible work for some beautiful customers, had a great staff. But the idea of that round robin, right, of I've got a project, now I got to do the project and I got to optimize all these people, both design and developers, because we had a fully you know, you had a fully staffed business of about 25 people that, you know, managed every kind of project from TV and radio to web and everything in between. So by the time you do that and then you come back around to, I gotta get more business to, you know, and, and I actually got some mentoring from a beautiful friend of mine who said, Dylan, you've got to look for two things in your business, something that can provide your business recurring revenue. So that you can build a business that can last without your, you know, it's not just billing for your time. And the other was to start building the processes and things that help to make your business valuable if someone wants to purchase you. And so when we really spun that company down, it was interesting because I looked up at our service, I guess all of the services that we provided, and it just, had grown, we had grown about $200,000 a year or something in just, and it wasn't WordPress at the time, but just hosting for websites. But it was the same thing. It was this full-service environment, right? Customers didn't have to know where the website was or where their domain was. They simply called us and said, "Something's wrong," or, "I'd like to change this," and we did it. Right at that time, WordPress was coming online in a big way, and I literally for about a year tested the market and said, what if I started converting these websites over to WordPress? How hard is that to do? And then could I by myself, instead of a staff that I had before of, you know, 7 or 8 people, could I manage the entire hosting environment and keep up the upkeep? And the answer was yes. It proved it really quickly, and it was amazing that Approved a model of a single person on our side can manage about 100 websites. Because we've built a really solid platform, and that's the important part. It's a safe, secure platform, so we reduce support tickets hugely because websites run fast and they don't go down. That's not the same case with a lot of larger web companies out there, unfortunately. Most websites go down all the time, and the customer doesn't even know about it. So we reduced that. And so by proving that, it was great. I'd solved the revenue model because, right, I'm signing up people for subscriptions and I'm providing a higher-end service than was available in the marketplace. And that's, I don't know, when I look at my, the things that I love to do, it always ends up being more along the lines of solving, you know, solving these puzzles. And it was a puzzle to me that existed. And it seems like we've done a pretty good job so far to do that.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Yeah, okay, so I'm going to ask a question. You don't have to answer it, but are you making more, more money with the new model than the last?

Absolutely. Um, yeah, and I guess you could look at it a couple different ways. Um, you know, um, you know, the time that I spend, um, right now, a big thing for me was as I shifted out of a model where I was around my family a very small amount of time. You know, I was working 60, 70-hour work weeks. So if you just looked at it from that standpoint, I'm probably making triple the amount per hour that I made. Yeah, or even more, because I spend less time working in this business than I ever did in that. It's objective, right? Website's either, either running or not. And the great thing is, is if some— if we have a problem we fix it, it literally fixes it for 100 different sites. So if we want to make a tweak, oh, well, that's going to solve this one need, it's solving it for everyone, not just that one, you know, not just that one business.

You said something very interesting. You said it twice. And I want to tug on that string. You said that it's objective. And it's not— and at the outset, you said that it's not subjective. In other words, you have solved the customer's problem or you haven't, right? And I think the biggest struggle with creative entrepreneurs is really dialing in on what the problem is that they're fixing. And they're caught in this legacy model of customization work and it's project and it's hourly, as opposed to doing exactly what you did is finding the one thing that, you know, was a problem. You solved a lot of problems before as an agency, right? But finding that one problem that you could solve repeatedly. Yeah. And that's how you build a business right now. You, you could have picked any aspect out of that agency to focus on and do the same thing. Rather than try to be all things to all people or to— and I don't know, you know, you tell me what you think. Is it that that doesn't scratch the creative itch to do something repeatedly or, you know, like the thrill of launching an NBA star's website and like all of the creativity that goes into that. I mean, like, what, what, what, what, what is it for you?

Yeah, I think that— and, and so I went to design school. My degree was actually in architecture, so it was, you know, somewhat akin to the agency world. And I think— and, and then I've hired, you know, probably 100 creatives at this point. And I think that the challenge for a lot of creatives and a lot of young people starting agencies is that they're not taught the business side of it. It is all about the creation of the thing. And I get it, they love it, right? One of the things that I heard from a professor of mine that I really appreciated is you have to remember the difference between art and design, right? Art is for you, design is for your customer. And I think that a lot of creatives get caught up in that and not, you know, they're creating for their customer, but they're taking a lot of ownership of it and they want it be this thing, you know, that's fantastic. And to them, they've got this vision in their mind when in reality 80% of that is probably more than enough and achieves the goal and actually is within budget and doesn't drive, you know, all of the things. And I think— so that's the problem, I think, is that— and I see this a lot when we start to work on projects. And in fact, I just had a recent project where, you know, a customer said, what does it take to build, you know, a 10-page website? What's the budget? And it's funny, it's like I've heard that same question for 20 years, right? It's like, you know, and I use a lot of car and mostly architecture metaphors and analogies. I'm like, let's think about it this way. What would it cost to build a house, right? I mean, I need to understand more about it. And so the job of the creative really has to, you know, part of the thing I think that they're taught a little bit of but not enough is how to manage that expectation on the front end, how to to ask all the questions, listen to all the answers, reformulate, and really push hard to make sure that, that everything is answered so that they can do their job. That's something that I'm really focused on. And when we build sites, I actually won't move forward. We definitely won't move into the development cycle at all until we literally have a design for every single page. I won't do it anymore. I used to do it all the time, right? Oh, we'll figure that out when we get into development. It's a horrible idea. You know, it costs a lot more to move around a bunch of things once it's in code than it does to sit in Illustrator and move it across the screen. So anyways, I think that's one of the things that, where I think there's a big failing out there is that they get caught up in the wonder of the, and I get it, it's a wonderful process, right, to design, but you have to also ask yourself the question is like, how much is my time worth? And if I'm gonna optimize that as much as possible, then I need to do, I need to ask all the right questions, listen, formulate, build scopes, all those things that aren't necessarily fun in order to get to the step where we can both agree that this is what we're going to accomplish.

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So you, you have some gray hairs like I do. Um, if, if, if some young buck came to you that was in the— I, I don't know, a creative space, they did design, they did agency work, they whatever, and they were trying to figure out this thing that we call entrepreneurship, the game of business. What would you tell them were the foundational things that you know now that you didn't know then? Like, what would your advice be to them?

Oh, man. Well, I'd say don't be afraid to make mistakes. And that's a big one. And always, I guess, continue to find new ways to learn. Grab a mentor. It was interesting. As an example, here's some early failures of ours. I didn't have a business license for the first 3 years of our business. Why? I didn't know it existed, right? So there are things that are not taught. Is that a big deal? I don't know if it is or isn't. It was a big deal to the guy that told me about it. Our accountant was like, oh, Oh my gosh, you don't have a business license. But at the end of the day, I think that, you know, you've got to continue, you know, you get a level of education in whatever format and to start this business. And I think you've got to continue to seek learning, whether that's from groups that you get involved with, it's events that you go to, that's just talking to people who have done it. You know, go and find someone who's been out there for 20 years The earlier person, that example that I gave you, that told us, you know, me about processes and recurring revenue, that's exactly what it was. He had been in the business for another, I guess he's about 10, 15 years older than me. And so he had experienced the things. You know, it was interesting, by the time I'd worked with him for a few years, I asked him, do I need to go back and get an MBA? Because I really think that it would help. And he's like, Dylan, you've been doing this for 5 years now. You've got the MBA. You don't need that. Just continue to ask questions. So that was at least some level of comfort. But I think the point was I'd never stopped. I never stopped looking for places to learn and understanding that there's probably things you don't know, right? I mean, it's hard to know what you don't know. But just agreeing that, man, I'm pretty sure there's a lot I don't know. So I better go figure things out.

Yes, I love that advice. I think learning— yes, entrepreneurship is a journey, is never a destination. And it is a game in the sense that I like to equate it to Choose Your Own Adventure. I loved those books when I was a kid. Absolutely. And entrepreneurship is the ultimate Choose Your Own Adventure. Right? Um, but it, it's, uh, it's a lot harder if you try to go through everything by yourself and not rely on the wisdom of others. Because, I mean, most, most tenured entrepreneurs are happy to share their experience, right? Because they, they know the pain they went through, and they're like, I wish someone would ask me because I'd be happy to tell you not to do that. Right? Um, but, but I think that's also part of, uh, a little bit of the hubris and ego of starting and, uh, starting your business is you, you have to believe enough in yourself to do it. You kind of got to be a little crazy to do it, and, and that kind of leads us to, to not ask for help, uh, as often as we should. Um, I, I think I would, you know, if someone asked me that question, uh, of what, what did you learn, um, my first answer is beware the power of self-deception. You know, like what, what you can tell yourself is true contrary to all of the facts otherwise, right? Um, but, but the second, right, right after that would be It's so easy to get caught on our side of the fence and think about what we do, how we do it, making it more efficient, you know, all of those things that we do in business and forget the customer. And the most important thing you can do is think from your customer's perspective. And that's not just from a customer service or hospitality standpoint. You know, that's true as well. But it's also putting yourself in their shoes and trying to understand what the problems that they're encountering are. And the beauty of the solution that you provided you found and provide is that you found a problem that a lot of people have, right? And so you don't have to reinvent the wheel with a new scope of work and a new storyboard with every engagement. You've got a product, if you will. And productization of what you offer is really key to building a business. Like, you need to be uber dialed in on like, this is what I— this is the problem I solve.

Solve.

And this is the solution.

Absolutely. I agree.

So how did you come up with the name Sunny HQ?

Well, you know, I tell you, it's really hard these days, right? I mean, if you're trying to work backwards from a dot-com— and a dot-com is less important now. And of course, we don't have a dot-com. But when we originally started down that path and mining through probably 40 or 50 names, We started with Tango and Tango HQ, and we liked that, but it was interesting. I went through a branding exercise with a company that I was working for at the time, and it was beautiful to go through that. It's the first time I'd actually gone through that exercise being the client. And so it was actually a lot of fun to see that kind of just unfurl itself. And, you know, to be honest, one of the things that Sunny, Sunny came out in the beginning And the lead brand person said that it's his feeling that because I was the spokesperson of the company and the founder of the company, that it should really reflect who I am. And his feeling was that I was a very sunny person, sunny disposition. I have a very positive outlook on life. And so that's where it came from. And of course, the HQ for headquarters, and then was born Sunny HQ.

I love that. Sunny disposition. I love that. Yeah. Um, you said that you went to school for architecture. How did you end up in marketing?

Yeah, so, um, that's a— my wife would say, she always says, my husband's an architect, but he never practiced. Um, and so I, I, you know, was exposed to that world when I was younger, and my dad was in building and And so, and I love architecture. It was interesting though, when I actually have a graduate degree in architecture from North Carolina State and going through that program, it became, and working at the same time, became really evident at the time that the cool part of architecture, really the people that got to practice that is like 2%, right? To design an architecture, and I'll be honest, I looked at the, you know, my classmates and I was like, I'm good, but I'm not like that. Like, I don't look at it with the same eye. I don't have the same level of investigation. But what I was really good at and loved— so in the kind of late '90s, early 2000s, I got heavily into visualization. So where they were building hand models, I was heavy into very photorealistic realistic models at the time in architecture. That took me to Walt Disney Imagineering. So I was an Imagineer for a year, and the exposure to that— I was in the planning department, so I did visualization, but the bulk of what we did was to help. This is— anyone listening to this from that department saying, that's not what we do, but the way that I saw it, what we did is we really to— we helped any department visualize, and actually we marketed to them, hey, here's an idea for this. And we actually did all of the marketing for that. So it's not to the public, but it's like if they wanted to build a hotel, right, we would visualize the hotel, we would build a package, present it to them. And so there's a big marketing aspect to it.

Okay.

So that ended up kind of taking me, because of the technology spin, That's what drove me into web design at the time. And I partnered with a good friend of mine and we started a web design business. And then that grew into branding and marketing.

So you said you wound that down. Was there some trigger that said, like, I need to pivot, I need to do something different, like this isn't working for me anymore?

Yeah, there was a, there was a 2008 a complete pivot from, you know, there was a, you know, just a market correction overall that we had been immune to until that time. We had built organically and done a really good job at having a diverse set of clients. But unfortunately, we had a lot, we had still had too much in the real estate development world, and they got hit really hard. So, we were left with a lot of debt. On top of that, I had an existential crisis. So, I mean, I literally, at one point before 2008, I started asking myself the question, like, what is this for? Um, I had some addiction problems at the time, um, drank too much, ignored my family, and really blew up the company. Um, it was a— is not a recommended way of exiting the company. I think about that I get asked that a lot when people ask me, people ask me, what are the two things you did different or that you'd like to do different? And I said, well, one of the main things in the beginning was people would always ask me when I started that agency, you know, what's your exit strategy? I scratched my head and I was like, I don't— I just started it. Why am I thinking about the exit? And it wasn't until I started the second company that I fully realized like the importance of that question. And that you really decide what you want from it. And this is kind of a catch-22, right? Because it's that type of thing, not thinking about it from the beginning, that helped me get into the position that I did at the end. Because I basically, at one point, you know, 8, 9 years into that agency life, again, we were doing great. There were obviously personal things that were happening that disabled me from even understanding that. And then two, coupled with the fact that I started to ask, like, what is this even for? No one's going to care about this marketing in 10 years. No one's going to care about this logo. No one's going to care about this website. And there was a lot of truth to that. So it was really out of alignment with who I was as an individual. And so really, that was the— the impetus was unfortunate. But I look back on it now, and I wouldn't change a thing. It's something that I had to go through to be where I am now and to be running Sunny HQ, a more thoughtful version of that company that's in alignment with who I am.

Thank you for sharing that and being vulnerable, because a lot of people don't want to talk about the dark parts of entrepreneurship. But you hit on two things that I think are crucial. And, and, and the first is designing the business the, the way you want it to be, uh, not letting the business become the, the tail that wags the dog, you know. Yeah, uh, because it's real easy to get on that and, and go someplace you don't want to go. Yeah. Um, and the second thing is, you know, the whole exit thing. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about exit when I started the business. But that kind of, it kind of dovetails with, with the first part is, is like, if you're going to build a business that you want that serves your needs, part of that has to be like, what does, what does the exit of it look like and the value that you're creating? Because you mentioned recurring revenue. You can, you can sell an agency that, is project work, but it's not nearly as valuable as something that has recurring revenue and sticky customers, right? So, you know, understanding that option up front and building the business that you want, I think is something that most entrepreneurs neglect. Not until it's too late, but it's like you, you, you cover a lot of ground that you, you probably didn't have to, uh, before you start over.

Yeah, well, no, I mean, I think you're, you're on to something. I think with the tail wagging the dog, right? The reality is when I started that business, you know, we were excited and it's great. We had all the feelings. We were starting to work for people. We were doing the work we wanted to do, but Yeah. You know, if you think about, we're also all humans. So, you know, asking yourself, what do you want out of this business? And, you know, what I realized is real quickly, my business became a giant distraction. And especially when you run the business, because anybody that's run a business of any size understands it's so vastly different from having a job because there's literally, you have to decide, you know, you talk about boundaries, you have to build those for yourself. Right? You have to decide how much time am I going to spend today or next week, or what jobs am I going to do, what jobs am I going to hire out. Literally though, there's something— if you're not comfortable with— put it this way, if you're not comfortable with a part of your life, or for me, I wasn't— I didn't have an awareness of the part of me that was uncomfortable. There's a steady stream of distraction to fill that void, right? From customers to vendors to to receivables, to buying equipment, to lease. I mean, you just never ending. And there's always, you know, there's always something for you to, to, to spend your time on doing. So I think it's important that you do back up. We didn't start to ask those questions till late, to say, what is the future of this? And by that time, it was not that it was too late. It's never too late. But by that time, I was experiencing a lot of personal things that really disabled me to even comprehend that question at all. So, it's important though, I think, that to me, decide what you want to do, but also decide like, what does the outlook look like? Maybe it starts with that question of what is 5 years from now or what is 10 years from now? But be really meaningful about that. What does that look like?

Intentional. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's— I talk about that in the book Profit First for Creatives. Like, profit, you know, how to have a profitable business is to be intentional about having a profit.

Right?

Right. Like, it's not something that is accidental that happens if you're lucky. Like, that's the wrong way to do it. And going back to my choose-your-own-adventure analogy is that But I think a lot of people, and I was there many times myself, but you get in this mindset of it's an either/or, right? And there's this, I can do this or I can do that. But the reality of options is usually much broader than that. There's usually option C and D and E and F right? And it's— that's the beauty of it, is you may not have more than one or two options right now, but the possibility of what you want to create is, is yours. It's, it's completely endless, unique. You can create whatever it is that you want to do. And to me, it's, it's about kind of repurposing that creative energy from, from the actual work product, right, into the, the business, the, the game of business. Use your creativity in the game of business, which you did brilliantly.

Yeah. No, it's interesting. I think a lot— I, I love the movie industry, and I listen to a lot of podcasts and listen to actors, and it's this— they have the same thing, right? They, they talk about— so as young creatives, we're just so excited to get any work. Just like actors. They, you know, they talk about this all the time. It's like, I just can't wait to get that job. I've got next to no money. I'm living on somebody's sofa. And then I get this sitcom and before I know it, like, I'm in a completely different place. Well, same thing happens, right, for us as creatives, whether we're working for someone or we're starting a business. The reality is the importance, I think, of, like you said, and I think that's a great way to put it, right, using those design skills to design the kind of your future, to design the business, to design your business. And that's something that, you know, it's the irony, I think, of what we did. The company was called Ulanguzi. What we did at Ulanguzi in that agency for other businesses, we were so late to the game to do it for ourselves. It was comical, right? And it's, you know, it's the cobbler's shoe and all the things. But it's important. It's really, really important. Important to take a look at that and design that for yourself. Like you said, that intent is beautiful to decide that this is what I want for me and for my employees and for my family is really a hugely important part of that.

Absolutely. Dylan, where do I learn more about Sunny HQ if I want to see your work?

You can go to sunnyhq.io. And for anybody interested on the WordPress side, we've actually got a Sunny hq.io/podcast. There's a nice free download of a PDF that will help you kind of take a look at your website and maybe understand some things about it that you're not aware.

Yes, because we all need to know more. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Listeners, if you, uh, we'll have those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, subscribe to the podcast, um, share the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear, and we'll get rid of Dylan. Until next time, ta-ta for now.

Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.