Entrepreneurs and Marriage: Bob Wischer

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is the relationship engineer, Bob Wisher. Bob, welcome to the program.

Hey, thanks for having me.

So why don't you let the audience in on your bona fides? Like, what qualifies you to talk to them?

Okay. As a relationship engineer, I work with mainly with men to help them strengthen their marriage, build trust in relationships, and align ambition— align their ambitions with their values so that they can succeed not only in business but in life as well. I've been coaching now for, excuse me, about 7 years. Started off as a health and wellness coach and moved into life coaching and then really drilled down to as I got more into it, um, and basically through my own healing process, um, just really started seeing the hearts of men. And as we kind of talked about the pre-show, I've had, I've had a lot of experience with, um, some men that have taken their own lives. And the, the motivation for what I do comes a lot from those situations because the more and more men I talk to, um, for example, I talked to a gentleman today, um, we all have stuff that happened to us, whether it was in our youth or in our teens or in our marriages or whatever, um, that have really, you know, put it— put us in a place where we either feel trapped, we feel stuck or just lost. And I was one of those men, um, going on, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago, who just felt like I'm on this hamster wheel of life. And I'm just going— I'm going— I go to work, I come home, and it's the same thing every day, day after day. Excuse me. And, uh, it just— I, I want to be able to work with those kind of men to first and foremost let them see what the possibilities are, what they're, you know, what they're potentially missing out on in, in this life. Um, help them find purpose. Uh, that's a— that's a— that was a big one for me as I got to a point in my life where Uh, my divorce had been final, my kids were going off to college, and there I was with— I had a job, which was great, but what, what else, what else am I supposed to be doing? I, I don't know. My purpose had always been to raise my family, and that box was, was more or less checked. I mean, I still of course support my kids in every, every single way, but there's, there's not that day-to-day need, right, to be there. So I was like, okay, well, now what do I do? So that's what led me down this path of, uh, coaching and, and life coaching, and, and then working with men on relationships.

So what did you do as a profession before you became a coach?

I still do, actually. Coaching is kind of— coaching is a side hustle. Um, I've been in the automotive industry. I live in Michigan in the Detroit area and been in the automotive industry for my entire career.

As an engineer?

Program management, which is kind of engineering adjacent. I work with engineers to make sure deliverables are met on time and things happen when they're supposed to and budgets and all that other kind of stuff.

So you talk to the nerds and help translate.

I translate, yes.

Yes, exactly.

Yes. You nailed it on the head.

Yes. Well, I mean, it's a critical skill. That actually is what my daughter does. She's a project manager for the Oklahoma Department of Human Services, and she manages their IT function. She has no background in IT, but someone's got to talk to the nerds.

Yep. And I have no background in engineering. Right.

Right.

It's just what I've learned through osmosis.

It's a skill. Yeah, it is interesting. Okay, so what— I mean, was there some specific event that inspired you to do coaching? I mean, what— did you have any kind of like coaching background? I mean, like, even like Little League or—

Oh, well, yeah, actually, that's a big part of it is I was actually— so I didn't start When did I start coaching? I have to gauge it on my son's age, more or less. He was probably 14. So when he was 11, I had been coaching. I coached him up through Little League, all through the levels of baseball. And when he was 11, I actually started working with the kids on their mindset. You know, how does one deal with going up to the plate, even if you're the best player, going up to the plate and getting out 7 out of 10 times? So I started working with them on that. I started working them on, you know, the mentality of pitching. You know, when you give up a home run, what are you going to do mentally? How does that— you know, so I started working with these kids at age 11. Right. And then I continued that a little bit as the years went on. I kind of was stepping back for— he played for other teams that I wasn't the head coach for, but I was still always working with the kids on their mindset. As far as, you know, if a kid would strike out, I'd be the first one to grab him and kind of put my arm around him and say, you know, say a few things to him just to make sure that he was okay and that, you know, he didn't get down for too long. And, uh, and then in 2017, I have— I was— I kept seeing ads for high-performance men's coaching, and I was kind of in a position at that point where I was, I was in a, a director-level position, and I was really struggling with it because I was, um, the company I was— the company I was working for was was actually in the process of being purchased, and I was, it was constantly interviewing, a lot of turnover, stuff like that. And I was just kind of at my wit's end, and my divorce had just been final, my kids were off doing their thing. I was kind of in this place of, you know, like I mentioned earlier, oh my God, what am I supposed to be doing with my life? And I kept seeing these ads, and I was like, you know what, I've heard, I've heard of Coach L, of course, you know, you, Tony Robbins, all that kind of stuff. It's like, I'm gonna look into this. And I got on the phone and talk, talking to the, the intake person, and they just made it sound so appealing and so amazing. I was like, okay, I'm gonna give this a try. And before I even hung up the phone, I was like, I'm gonna do this, you know, as long as it's not a million dollars, right? I guess I had no idea what it was. This is something I think I really, really need because I, I've And it's funny, the first, one of the very first things my coach made me do when I started working with him is, was read something educational every, at least 15 minutes every day. And I look back on that and I was mid, my mid-40s at the time. It had probably been since I read something educational, it had probably been 20 years. I was reading fiction books, you know, newspaper, internet, whatever, but I was not learning and growing. Yeah, I was definitely in that fixed mindset where I know everything I need to know. I can, you know, finagle my way through life some way or another. And I didn't know until I was 45 years old that I don't know what I don't know. Yes. And that was, that was a kick in the teeth. So I engaged in the process. I absolutely loved it. And probably 2, 3 months into it, I was like, this is the best thing ever. I wish I hadn't waited so long to do this, but I was like, I want to do this for other people. I want to show other people the possibilities. And it's just, it's been an absolute blessing for the last 7 years of doing it.

Did you ever, and I want an honest answer here, did you ever wonder like, who's going to pay me to coach them? Was that ever a question striking out?

Of course. Every day. And now, and some people, I've, I'm sure I've had more conversations with people about a coaching relationship than have actually hired me. But that's honestly, the money is, it's not what, the money isn't what's important to me. Right. What's important to me is the transformation, the learning and the growth for the client. The money in a coaching relationship is just energy. It's just, you know, I'm, I'm giving you my wisdom, my knowledge, my mentorship, whatever the case may be. And, and you're giving me some, some little pieces of paper that I can go and use at the store. I mean, it's right, that's the— and that's where unfortunately a lot of people get hung up on the fact that, you know, oh my God, coaching costs so much. But it's really The value that I've gotten out of the investments that I've done, I've had 3 or 4 coaches. The investment that I've made in my personal growth is priceless. Do you? Because I would still be that same stuck, you know, broken, lost person that I was back 10 years, well, 11, 12 years ago now, that I would still be that guy today and I'd be walking around in a haze.

Do you work with entrepreneurs?

I— yeah, absolutely. Um, that's— I mean, we all have relationships, so that's really, um, whether entrepreneurs, engineers, um, business owners, you know.

Do you, do you find, uh, a particular segment gravitates to you or that you prefer to work with?

Um, Yeah, actually, the, the most— the group that's gravitated the most towards me are men that are going through divorces or relationship, you know, those major relationship issues. Um, at one point I was strictly working— I was strictly working with divorced men. Um, that's, that's kind of broadened a little bit. Um, but, uh, that's just Again, because I had been there, I had been through that, that situation. I had gone through a very, very difficult divorce where my ex-wife, um, there are simple ones. Um, well, believe it or not, I have heard stories, but mine was, mine was difficult in that she was trying to alienate me from the kids and drive a wedge between us and destroy the relationships with my kids that I'd had for the previous 18 years. And I just wasn't gonna let that happen. So Um, but yeah, yeah, it's interesting you, you talk about that coaching relationship.

I, I don't remember the time frame, many years ago, I had a colleague of mine, an entrepreneur that was not a competitor but very successful, and, and I, I went to him and I explained my situation, and, and at the time I thought I wanted to set up an external board of directors for my company. And after I got done, he patiently listened and he said, well, you know, Christian, I think you need a coach. And I'm like, okay. And if it had not been him and I didn't value his opinion, I would have completely dismissed it. But as it was, I just kind of put that in the back of my mind, and I didn't think about it. I didn't hire a coach for probably 3 or 4 years after that, um, but I didn't make the connection, right? I, I mean, he clearly saw— yeah, it's like that, um, you know, you don't see the label from inside the jar. Other people can perceive you in ways that you can't perceive yourself. And having those trusted relationships that can speak truth to you in love, you know, those are rare. Those are exceptional to have those relationships that someone can say, hey, Christian, dude, you don't see this, but this is something that you need to work on. And I don't think he was identifying anything specific, but it was just from my talking about what I thought I wanted, um, he's like, I don't think that's what you need. Um, do you find others that, that reach out to you and are resistant to the idea of coaching? Like, is that— or do they get to you and they already know they want to coach?

Um, no, I, I, I would— I'd love to have some more of the latter. Um, it's, it's usually a lot, like I said, a lot of conversations that for one reason or another they just, they just don't pan out. Whether it's, um, you know, sometimes it's financial. Of course, it's, it's, it's not inexpensive. It's not, you know, not pay— it's not millions of dollars, but it's not inexpensive. A lot of times, and I think probably the most, um, prominent version of that is that they just don't think they can be successful. And, and that's really the tragedy of it is because you can— everybody can be successful at it. It's not— it— there's a, there's a premise, um, in coaching that basically says that the client has all the answers.

Yes.

They just don't know they have the answers.

Yeah.

And, and what coaching does is it helps you, like, like you said, helps you see that broader picture and, and tunes into those, those, you know, those, the shortfalls or, or pitfalls or whatever.

Blind spots.

Blind spots, exactly, that you have that, that you don't— like, for me, perfect example, I didn't realize I had an issue, an issue with not learning for— but I, I graduated from college, I was like, oh, I'm done with books forever. I know everything. I have a college degree. I know everything there is to know about life.

Right.

Wrong.

Right.

And until somebody, until my coach smacked me upside the head with a book, basically, you know, I had no idea. And now I got this great bookshelf behind me with all kinds of books. I got a phone full of Audible, you know, things I read. And I read some, I read, I still to this day, that was 7 years ago, I still read at least 15 minutes a day, sometimes more.

I was in a room with about 50 entrepreneurs. And Verne Harnish, author of Scaling Up and Rockefeller Habits, was speaking. And he asked the group, you know, how many of you read or know how to read? And of course, everybody raised their hand. And he said, how many of you don't read? And it was only— or no, how many of you read? He asked it in the positive. And only about a third of the group actually raised their hands. And he said, "Well, to the rest of you, you might as well be illiterate." And I was like, "Wow, that's kind of strong." And I think the idea of wanting to learn in general is an attitude that you need to cultivate, especially if you're an entrepreneur. But everybody should. I mean, you know, I think in your situation, like, if you're an employee working for somebody and you've reached the level of success that you want, you might not see value in learning, right? Yeah. But as an entrepreneur, there's always things to learn. Sure. And that's true for everybody, really. I mean, it's just that it presents differently. You also said something that I think is key. And I think one of the things that why I kind of dismissed the idea of working with a coach initially is, is I always thought of coaches in terms of teaching you skills, telling you what to do. Right. And one, I'm kind of anti-authority. So I don't, I don't like people telling me what to do.

One.

And two, I didn't really feel like my business knowledge was lacking. Like, I didn't feel like from a business standpoint I needed help. But to your point and your statement, I think a good coach doesn't teach you any skills. He just— he or she reveals the answer that's already inside of you.

Exactly. I don't have to know anything about your business to coach you on your business.

Right. And I think, you know, my personal experience when I engaged my current coach, it was in a time of crisis of my marriage. It had nothing to do with the business. Right. I didn't even see how my personal life was affecting the business. Right.

Yeah.

Blind spot. Right. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs especially if they're men, like to think they can compartmentalize things, right? Like there's the work self and there's the home self. And, you know, and I'm going to operate siloed, but it doesn't work that way. Because, you know, who you are shows up both places, right?

How we do one thing is how we do everything.

Right. And when we started working, and I honestly, the situation was that he came along with another consultant. And so, I wasn't paying him separately. So, I started using him because I was using this other consultant. And so, I kind of accidentally found him. But I'm thankful for that because we spent the first 6 months talking about my marriage. We rarely talked about the business. But through that 6 months, I'm like, holy shit, this is why I'm having problems.

Yeah.

And I didn't even see the problems at work. But it was all tied together into who I am. And that's the second thing is, and I'm sure you run into this if you're counseling married men, is there was this idea in the back of my head that if I could just fix my wife, everything would be fine.

Yep.

Right.

I'm in an online men's group, and somebody posted something exactly like that today. And everything was, if she would do this, and she does this, and she— and I, I said, brother, I, I hate to square— I hate to square it between the eyes with this, but as long as you keep playing the victim of your life, you're going to keep being a victim of your life.

Well, and see, that, that's the fascinating thing, because I didn't see myself as a victim. My, my wife had gone through, uh, a lot of shit, and, uh, because of that she was, I believe, clinically depressed. And so, I saw her as the victim that I needed to fix. Like, I've got to be able to fix her so that she can be better and then we can be better. Right. But obviously, working with my coach is like, well, you know, even if that is the case, it doesn't matter. You can't fix her. So, it's what can you do about you? Right.

How do you react to those situations? How do you deal with her emotions and her moods and all that other stuff? That's all on you to figure out how to do that.

100%. And what I realized, I mean, it was a multi-year journey, but in some ways, one I'm still on. But I realized because of my own baggage, I was allowing her feelings to dictate my feelings. Now, obviously, when, you know, there's a certain amount of that, that you can't get away with, get away from when you're living with somebody. But the reality is, to your point, you're in charge of your emotions, like you're responsible for your reactions. So, you know, being able to figure out that, like, I don't need her to be happy for me to be happy. Like, that was a revelation for me, right? And if she's sad, it's not my fault. Like, you know, if she's— and honestly, it was a great amount of freedom for her, too, to be able to say, okay, it's okay for me to be sad, or to have feelings. And, you know, it's not going to cause a problem with you.

Right?

Absolutely. So I know that a lot of entrepreneurs, um, you know, struggle in their marriages. Um, what would you say is— are the— let's, let's start with the most common symptoms. What, what are the most common symptoms that people come to you with, as entrepreneurs in, in their marriage?

Uh, it's usually that, just that, just that feeling of disconnection. Um, whether it's, you know, walking—

I, I've probably—

you know, the terms I hear all the time: walking on eggshells. Um, don't know how to make her happy, just like, like you said. Um, you know, try— because I think there's a certain amount of guilt that comes with being an entrepreneur. 'Cause you're, you know, you're probably working nights, you're working weekends, you're, you know, missing out on family events, things like that. Whether it's, you know, your kid's ball game or your daughter's dance recital, whatever. There's a lot of things that come up like that and that builds a lot of resentment between the spouses. And if you're not taking care of that piece of your life, that one-on-one relationship with your spouse, Obviously things can, can go really wrong really fast. Um, I mean, a lot of guys, you get into that mode, you're off and you're doing your thing, and she's, she's, she's checking boxes, right? Um, is, is he there for me? Nope. Is he making me feel safe? Nope. Is he providing for the family? Well, yes, financially, but not emotionally. And, and they start making that list of things, and then all of a sudden, you know, usually takes them 2 or 3 years. But generally, uh, a woman will think about the D-word for 2 or 3 years before she actually says it. Yeah. And, and then once she said— once she makes that decision that, okay, this is— I'm gonna have this conversation, then it's usually the, the, the train is already running down, downhill, down the tracks on the wrong side of the hill for you. And it's very, very difficult to, to win back their trust, their, um, the say-down, that safety factor, and all those other things that, that, uh, that they go through when they're, when they're thinking about this for 2 years. You've got it. They've got a big head start on you. And, and many men, yeah, it's a blindside, right? It's like, oh my God, I've been, I've been providing for you, I've been doing this, I've been doing this, I've been, you I've been doing all these things for you, but it's not the thing that she needed. Actually, a client I'm working with now, we had this exact conversation. He's been, he's, to use love languages, I'm sure you're probably familiar with, right? He's been giving acts of service for, he's been married for almost 20 years. His love language has been to give acts of service. He just found out last week because I made him go find out what his wife's love languages are. They're affirm— uh, words of affirmation and physical touch. So he's been sending all this service her way thinking, I'm being a great husband, I'm being a great father, I'm doing all these things, I'm taking care of— and it's completely missing the target for her because she's wanted affirmation all her life and— or all their relationship, and she's not getting it. And she, she had actually filed for divorce about a month or so ago. And after a few sessions of us working together, she pulled it back off the table.

Well, that's good to hear.

That's absolutely—

Yeah, I think you're right. I think most of us men are simple creatures. And we don't understand the complexities and nuances of females.

No, we don't.

You know, I have been married for 32 years. I have 2 grown adult daughters. And I don't understand them any more than I did when I was, you know, 23 and got married. I have a lot more experience, but I don't know that I would translate that into true understanding. Because, I mean, we are fundamentally different creatures. And You know, one of the most powerful questions my coach asks, he asked it a lot initially, and occasionally still does, is, you know, what do you want? And, you know, for me, I didn't grow up in the church, but I had raised my family in the church. My wife and I were baptized together before we were married. And so that that was a big part of our, our relationship. I, I thought it wrong to think about what I wanted, right? Like, that, that was somehow unimportant.

Yeah. And that's a majority of men, actually.

Yeah, I think it's— I, I think it's— I think it's more of a universal condition because, because once I, I started getting clear on what I wanted from the marriage, I started to ask my wife that question. And I remember the first couple of times I asked her, "Well, what do you want from me as a husband?" It was just this blank look, like, "I don't know." And then it was like, well, if you don't know, I can't give it to you. Like, I can't make strides. But see, it goes back to that word that you used, victim. Right. And it's very easy for every person to look at someone else as being the antagonist and the cause of your problems instead of owning your own shit and saying, you know, I need to do something with me, not somebody else. Because at that point, she was frustrated and angry and disappointed in me, and rightly so. I'm not saying she wasn't. But she'd never even really tried to understand what it was that she needed from me. Like, I know I don't want this, but what do I want? Right? And it took, it took several times asking that question before she could start to give me some feedback.

And how, so how's that going now?

It's, it's going swimmingly. It's a process. I mean, I'd say, this is, what is it, 25? I would say this is going on year 4 or 5. It is night and day different from what it was when we started. And it was one of those deals where, We had been married, we'd started a business together. And for a long time, she worked in the business, raised 3 kids, and they're all out of the house. And she hasn't worked in 5 or 6 years. And her last baby leaves home, and then her mother dies. Her Sister dies, and she gets breast cancer and has to have a double mastectomy and reconstruction. And so like, the shit hit all the fan at once, right? Or all the shit hit the fan at once. And oh, and there was a pandemic, right?

Yeah. And that little pandemic thing.

Yeah. And so like, you know, I would not go back and relive those times voluntarily. They sucked. But I am very thankful for them. Because if it weren't for that, we couldn't have— we wouldn't have a relationship. If things had been coasting along, one of two things would have happened. We would have either ended up in a divorce, or more likely, where I see a lot of people, they end up just living separate lives. And they live together and they socially do some things together, but they're not connected.

Yeah. Yeah. And really, that's the thing that nobody teaches us, right? When we're going through, you know, we get married, we have kids, and that 18-year span of life where we pour everything, you know, like I said earlier, our purpose was to raise our family.

And you had that in common.

Yeah, you had that in common. And, and then you get to the end of that 18 to 25 years, depending on how many kids you have, and then all of a sudden you're looking at each other and who are you, right?

Because you, you don't know each other anymore and you don't have anything to work in. I don't know how many times my wife said, I don't feel like we're, we're partners. Yeah, I don't feel like we're we have anything that we care about in common. And I think that was probably not entirely true, but the feeling was true. And it was because we had something that we had poured so much energy into. There was no equivalent. It wasn't like, okay, now we're going to do mission work or something. I mean, like, it wasn't—

Yeah, you never— there's still no one and there will never be. I mean, you could have the the greatest business ever, and it's never going to be the same as raising your kids. So, no, it's, it's, it's, yes, it's a step down, but it's still, you have to have that step because you got to land somewhere, or you just, you keep falling and then you got nothing.

So, if, what would you, I mean, because men get blindsided and we want to kind of prevent that from happening, uh, we don't want to wait until you know, your wife's out the door. What would you— how would you counsel men? What would you advise them to do proactively to check and say, is there something I'm missing?

Hmm. My first and foremost recommendation I give to every man I can talk to is you've got to have a date night. You've got, you've got to continue dating all through, you know, for no matter where you are today, set it up in your calendars, you know, put it in every 2 weeks, block out Friday night, Saturday night, whichever is, you know, or weeknight, whatever works for you, but block out every 2 weeks, get out, get out of the house, get away with her, you know, go to dinner, go to a movie, go have ice cream, whatever the case may be, but get out of your routine and spend that time together and have conversations. Depending on the magnitude of the disconnection at that point, there's always prompts and things that you can use. I think you even mentioned one earlier, Dad, you thought what your coach said about asking her, what do you want from this relationship? Or, you know, what do you want from this marriage? What do you want from me? Having, having those hard conversations. Yes, it's an awkward question, but like you even said, eventually once you asked it enough, she got the gist of what you're coming— where you're coming from, and then you probably had a lot more open dialogue about it. Yes. And were able to talk about it. So, but staying, staying connected like that, um, and, and I even— I especially see it in like younger, younger men that I know and, and some, some that I've worked with that when they have that first kid and they're, you know, pouring everything up, whether it's their business and their kids and what— I'm like, dude, you have to do this. You have to get it in, in your, you know, I call it a non-negotiable of life to have that in your calendar, that whether it's every— if you can do it every week, great. But a lot of people, you know, whether it's every 2 weeks or every month, whatever the cadence is, but just have it regular cadence. And because if you don't do that, you're going to wake up— I guarantee you will wake up 18 years from now and you're going to look at each other and you're going to go, I don't know you.

Because it doesn't seem possible when you're—

it doesn't seem possible, but, but how much did the world change in 2020? Yeah, that was one year. Stack— no, not necessarily doing that, but stack 18 years on top of each other. How you're going to change, how she's going to change, your priorities, your business, your, you know, everything about you is going to change completely in 18 years. So, you don't know who you're going to be. You don't know who she's going to be. But if you're staying connected all that time through, you have a heck of a lot better chance.

The analogy that someone gave to me a long time ago was a garden. And, you know, I'm not a gardener. I refuse to do yard work. But that was a good one for me. For some reason, it resonated. Like, if you don't tend your garden, it's not going to be productive. It's going to be overgrown. And eventually, it's just going to die. And the relationship, any relationship, but especially marriage, is very much like a garden. You've got to tend it. It has to take intentional effort. And I think a lot of people get caught in that, well, they're not doing this, so I'm not going to do that. And there's this tit for tat, right? Yeah.

Can't keep score.

Right. And the reality is that If your marriage is based upon love, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the other person does. You do you out of love.

Yeah. A lot of people seem to think marriage is 50/50, right? You do 50% of the chores, you do 50% of the child raising, you do 50% of everything because you're a team, right? A team is 50/50 even. That's, uh, I, I look at it as if I put 80% into my marriage, if she puts even, you know, north of 50, we got, we got a great shot because we're both putting in more than 50. We're both putting in the best we can. We've got a shot. But if, you know, if we're both, if we're both just trying to get to 50 and we're, you know, keeping score and managing maybe one of us is at 49 and one of us is at 43, you know, it's just the long term, it's not sustainable.

It's almost as if you've got to come with the attitude of, I am going to give more than the other. And if you don't feel that way in a positive way, I mean, you can't feel like you're being abused or taken advantage of or this or that. But, you know, I think about the book that my coach— my coach originally, before he became a coach, was an Orthodox rabbi, and he and his wife did marriage counseling, or marriage coaching. And so he had me read a book from these Jewish Rabbis had written this book called It's Not a Partnership. And it's a fantastic book. The first half of it is what I would say more the Hebrew or Jewish understanding of marriage, and God's purpose in it. And then the second half is more practical stuff. But the first half is what I found fascinating. But it starts out with that premise that most people are told that marriage is a partnership, like that, that it's like a business arrangement. And to your point, then it becomes, well, I'm doing my half, but you're not doing your half. And then there's a friction point, and there's a problem. And that's not— it's not the model of marriage. Partnership is not the model of marriage.

No, absolutely not. And that, and that's unfortunately what happened in my first marriage. You know, we, we got to that point, the kids, the kids were there, we were pouring everything into them. I was coaching, she was doing her thing, and we just, we continued to grow apart and get farther and farther away. We lacked, you know, the communication wasn't there. Um, Priorities weren't there. The, you know, kia'eri, so somebody was always keeping score. What are you doing? What am I doing? And it just, it got worse and worse until it just wasn't recognizable as a marriage anymore. It wasn't a partnership, it wasn't a marriage, it wasn't even a roommateship at that point. So change had to be made, unfortunately.

I remember my eldest daughter, and she was probably, 26, 27 at the time. And she came and sat both of us down. And this was— I had been working with Jacob for probably 6 months to a year. So I had already started this journey. And she looked at us and she goes, "I don't like being around you guys anymore." 'You guys are mean to each other. You're angry. And I'm just telling you that if you're going to continue acting like that, I'm not going to come around.' And I sat there and I'm like, wow, that's— my first thought initially was like, I wish I had that level of maturity at that age.

Right? Yeah, no kidding.

Right? And how strong of character she must have been to be able to have that conversation. And then third, it was like, how much she loves us that she would have that conversation. Because she clearly wanted to be around us and wanted it to be different. Right? Yeah. And so my response was markedly different than my wife's, who at the time, had really not started her journey. And was defensive, really.

Right?

And I totally understand that reaction. I mean, your kid coming and telling you that, that's not—

It's embarrassing. That's massive embarrassing.

You don't want that. Right? So I understand her reaction. But I guess to— I don't know why I started that story. But No, I thought it was a good story. Bob, how do people find out more about you as the Relationship Engineer if they want to learn more about working with you?

Yeah, very simple. www.menbecomingbettermen. You can see the sign there. Men Becoming Better Men. That's my website. That's it. Kind of one-stop shopping. You can find my old podcast episodes there. You can connect with me there, schedule appointments, kind of see a little bit of what I do. Yeah, that's not too complicated. I keep it simple.

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