Entrepreneurship: Challenges and Triumphs | Nora Schlesinger

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one-lister in Crofton, Maryland. I don't know where that is. The only place I've been in Maryland is Baltimore, and I didn't like it. Sorry, Baltimore. Joining me today Nora, Nora Schlesinger. Welcome to the program, Nora.

Thanks, Christian. I'm happy to be here, and nice job pronouncing my name.

You're, you're not in Maryland, are you? In Baltimore?

I actually live in whatever that town was that you just mentioned. No, I'm in Chicago. Yes, Crofton. Yeah, my hometown is Crofton, Maryland. So I'm out, this interview's over.

No, just kidding. I, I, I, I, you know, I, I inadvertently not intentionally, inadvertently offend many.

That's okay. That's okay. I'm deeply opinionated as well. So I have been known to say things that come out wrong.

When I was younger, I actually tried to intend to offend people. But now I've—

Everyone needs a hobby.

Yes, I was— my nickname was the Spoon because I would just stir shit up.

Perfect.

But not anymore. I really don't try to intend to offend. Yeah. Nora, tell the listeners who you are. Like, we had this conversation, like, what company do you want me to associate with?

Right.

It's complicated.

It's a complicated answer. So I was born on a cold day. No, I'm just joking. I have had a— we can get into my background in more depth, but I've had a wacky and, uh, kind of whirlwind career to this point. The most recent, uh, has been my tenure first, uh, joining this little startup that didn't have a website or like it could have been a scam. Like it easily could have been a scam, but it turned out to be Growth Machine, which is, um, which was a content-focused SEO agency. Um, or you could also say the inverse, an SEO-focused content agency. Uh, both, both would apply. So I joined as an employee. I was the first, uh, the first employee in 2018. Um, I kind of just ran everything internal while the founder ran sales and marketing. Um, and then eventually as we grew and scaled and people, you know, I hired people under me, I was the COO. And then 2020 happened. It was a tough time. The founder was just kind of like, oh, you know, just a few market blips, nothing big. So the founder kind of, the pressure of 2020 just kind of made the founder reassess what he wanted to be doing with his career. And he realized it was not this. And I really enjoy operations and running and growing businesses on a day-to-day basis. He was more of kind of an ideas guy and he had lots of ideas. And so he opted to leave. I was promoted to CEO. And then long story short, I eventually bought him out and became the owner. And then eventually realized that I too did not want to be running this company.

You got on the other side of the desk and you're like, oh.

That's what I love. It was something where like, I really love running companies, but it was a really tough time to be running. It still is a really tough time to be running an agency, but, um, it would have been worth it if this were my passion, but it, it wasn't. It was something I really, like, I, I love my team. I liked what we were doing. I think we were doing phenomenal work, but I realized that we would be better off in almost every way, um, if we could join a larger agency. Because what we did, you know, we were very hyper-specialized, but what we did was very difficult to do and develop the way we had done and hone the craft the way we had honed it. So we had this, you know, asset to contribute to a larger agency who was good at a lot of other things. And we could kind of plug in and do the content really, really well. So that's what we did. I sold the agency at the beginning of this year. To a company called MBE Group. They brought on our entire team, was a small team, um, and so I am now a vice president at MBE Group. Um, I now focus on day-to-day operations again. I do a little bit of marketing stuff, you know, I do more than just operations, but that's my primary, um, focus right now. So, okay, uh, I guess that's, that's where you would say I work, uh, but it's a long and winding tale.

Couple of follow-up questions then. I'm sure. Let's talk about the decision to buy the founder out. What prompted you to want to raise your hand and say, "I want that"?

It's, yeah, it's— the truth is because when he left, he still owned the vast majority of the equity. I was a minority stakeholder. And when he left, our agreement was basically that he and I would be like the board. You know, we'd be making a lot of the strategic decisions. He wouldn't be involved in the day-to-day, which was totally fine, but he would still have skin in the game. He didn't end up wanting that and never came back in any capacity. We never met. He never gave input on decisions. Didn't answer his phone. He did. To his credit, he always answers his phone when I call. But I just— it wasn't malicious in any way. Like, there was no animosity. There was no malice. You know, he wasn't like, "Ha, screw her." He was burned out and he was following his passion, to be honest. And that led him somewhere totally different. He ended up trading crypto and then writing a book about his experience trading crypto. Really way, way, way in the other direction. Um, and I fully respected that and supported that, but the reality was that it was very hard for me, um, to be running this business, which needed a lot of work, and there were a lot of changes that needed to be made on top of the stress of running an agency through a very challenging market. This was 2021 through '24. Um, not a great time to be running an agency or any small business really. Um, and I just realized I'm doing all this work. Our exit strategy, or at least my exit strategy, was always to sell. And I realized, you know, he wasn't contributing and I was doing 100% of the work to grow the company and add value. And when it came time to cash in on that value, you know, I was looking ahead to our, our eventual exit. He would get almost the entire windfall. Right. That sucked. Yeah. You know, that's really what it came down to. Yeah. Yeah. So I wasn't doing it out of the goodness of my heart. You know, there were some very, very hard days and I kept thinking, why am I doing this? What's the payoff? And then I finally realized it was only worth it if I owned the equity. So I bought him out. Easy as that.

Well, yes. So that— how did, how did that go down when you approached him?

Like, very smoothly, actually. I think, I think a lot of people hear this story and they think, you know, drama, and there's zero conflict. I thought for a really long time about how I wanted to talk to him about this to make sure that it wouldn't be it wouldn't ruin our relationship. We still have a very good relationship. We worked really well together. I didn't hold it against him, or like, there was, there was no animosity at all on either side. So I called him one day and I was like, hey, do you have a minute? I wanna, I wanna pitch something to you. It's gonna come out of left field, it might shock you, but I appreciate you hearing me out, which he always would. Like, we had, you know, Like I said, we had a very strong relationship, great communication. He's a very calm guy, like most of the time, you know, and he, he heard me out and I said basically everything I just told you, you know, that we had originally kind of, when we talked about me taking over, we had, he had kind of pitched it looking a certain way through a variety of circumstances that were no one's fault, just the way things panned out. It has turned out to look very different. Um, and it's really hard for me to keep going and keep building the value of the equity when I won't really see the payoff. Um, and I also stressed, and this was, you know, very, a very big part of the consideration, but I also stressed that like he had clearly moved in another direction. His interests were clearly elsewhere. It would benefit him to have a clean break, you know, and, and just be able to cleanly and smoothly move on to his next career endeavor. Um, and he was very receptive, and we had a very open and honest and loving conversation about it. It's a weird word, but it was— it was— that's honestly how I remember it. Like, it was— he was like, I want to do what's right for you, I want to do what's right for the company. And I was like, I want to do what's right for you too. And I really, like, feel like this would be a load off your shoulders. You don't have to worry about this asset. You know, I won't be coming to you asking for help that you can't or won't or don't want to give. It's just, it's just a lighter burden for both of us.

He didn't say, why didn't you ask sooner?

No. Okay. He didn't ask.

Did you have an agreement in writing, uh, on, on your ownership, like a a buy-sell agreement or—

Yes. Okay. Yeah. We worked with a great lawyer, a very non-lawyer-y lawyer who would like not go overboard on the legalese and was very receptive when I said like, we want to keep this simple. We want to keep it, you know, very, very clean and amicable. And he worked with us. I really like— this is a weird thing to say, but I love that. I loved the lawyer. I worked on him also. I worked with him also on the acquisition. It's been, it's honestly been such a pleasant experience, which I think a lot of people who have bought and sold companies may not be able to say. I've had really great experiences facilitating these transactions. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.

Yes. But, but I want to clarify, you, you had an agreement from the outset. It wasn't— yes. And, and that's, that's the way to do it. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't do that. They, they get married without a contract and assume that it'll be, you know, rainbow and roses.

And then when it's not, that's not a good idea. No. Um, I think there's a happy medium where you are protected, but you don't inject so much legality in that it necessarily forces everybody to become, uh, to, to, uh, inspire conflict. You know what I mean? I think that That's a really tricky thing to do, but that's something we worked really hard to do, to just sort of have enough legal protections for everyone involved without passing that threshold where suddenly it instills conflict, fear, you know, vilifies people unnecessarily.

Adversarial. Yeah.

Perfect word for it. Yes.

Thank you. You're welcome.

That's the word I should have used. That's what I do. Yeah.

So did you, did you have valuation built into this agreement?

We, uh, Nat, the founder, and I agreed on a valuation that we both felt good about.

But that was not the valuation mechanism. Was it in the agreement upfront? Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Uh, I honestly can't remember, but I don't think so. Okay. It was just, we, we agreed to, we kind of skipped the formal valuation process when Nat, we, I did eventually. Do a valuation, like a formal valuation, when I sold the company. When I initially got equity, uh, when I took over as CEO, and then again when I bought out Nat's shares, we didn't go through the formal valuation process. We just, um, sort of implicitly did our own valuation by agreeing to a price.

So there wasn't a lot of disagreement on the valuation, right? Okay. Um, yeah, and that, that's, that's also one of the key elements I see missing from agreements is, is an exit valuation. Or, you know, the exit could be, you know, someone dies or they get divorced or whatever. Um, yeah, and, and I, I think it's, I think it's best practice to have that in the document. I'm not a lawyer, I'm just speaking as a business owner. My brother was my partner for many years, and then he quit working, and he was still a minority shareholder. And I went through a, a process of negotiating his buyout. And, you know, the— I mean, There were a couple of times I almost threw my hands up and walked away because I was like this. But the reality is, if we'd had that in there, it would have simplified things. It probably would have worked out worse for me. I think I negotiated a good deal with him. I hope Nate's not listening to this. But the—

earmuffs, Nate.

Yeah, earmuffs. The reality was—

as I tell my kids.

I like, to your point, is that I was going to, I was going to be uber pissed if I was having to write him dividend checks and he's not there and he's not contributing anything like that, right? And, and that's what I, you know, because I basically was negotiating a deal between him and my wife, and, and that's what I told my wife. I'm like, I'm, I'm going to be pissed if, if this doesn't get done. Okay.

So, was this— I think that's sort of the key too, like understanding what your priorities are and what's important to you in the negotiation. Because for me, it wasn't maximizing, or I guess for both of us, it wasn't like maximizing the valuation. It was really about a fair split because to him, it was basically free money. It was found money. He didn't pay into this business. He just sort of started like a— it started as a consultancy. Then when I joined, we worked together to build it into a real business. So to him, it was like free money. To me, it was, I know if I went out on the open market and tried to buy a company, I would be paying a ton more. So it was, it felt fair and equitable and sort of like acceptable to both of us, but that was very situation-specific. Um, I think that, you know, I like sharing my story for a couple of reasons. One, just to illustrate that not every transaction needs to be dramatic and acrimonious, you know, like all this, all this chaos that you hear about in, in, you know, the business, uh, news outlets. Um, but also just to illustrate how different every transaction can be. Now, having been through two of them and on both sides, you know, It really so depends on the parties involved, and there's no rule. There's no like, you know, a sale has to look like this, a buyout has to look like this, whatever. It's so specific to what the priorities are, and I think what the relationship is of the parties involved. Um, it would probably have looked a lot different if I were negotiating with my brother, for example. You know, it was, it was just, um, We work really well together, Nat and I. I mean, my brother and I do too. Like, that wasn't a knock on my brother, but I just think that it's so important that if you're not familiar with the world of M&A, you hear stories of all the different ways that it can proceed. You know, it doesn't have to look one certain way. It should just work in the way that works best for the parties involved.

Yeah, I can't remember her name. She's a professor there at Northwestern. At least she was. I don't know if she's still there. She consults on negotiation pricing. She was doing a workshop. I've been to the workshop actually twice, and it just blows me away. But she She split this group, and it was all entrepreneurs. So she split the group into buyers and sellers, and she gave us each a package. So all the buyers got the same information, all the sellers got the same information, and she's like, okay, now negotiate your best deal. And then afterwards she said, okay, you know, give me your numbers. And she put it up on, on the board and What shocked me was the range. It was like 100x. And yeah, you know how— and of course, that's what she gets paid to do. Like, she's like, okay, I can, you know, show you how to maximize the value of your exit. But I was shocked with the same information how—

right—

how that group of business people could come to such varied and vastly different conclusions?

Yeah. I think, you know, I think, like I said, it really just comes down to priorities. Some people are looking to retire. I never was. Some people are just looking to win, which I think that's the biggest fallacy in negotiations that I think a successful— I know that a successful negotiation means everybody wins. Everybody has to make a little bit of compromise, but everybody feels like they walk away with enough. There isn't an all-or-nothing outcome. But I think some people go into a negotiation thinking it's this competition and you have to win the negotiation. I think those people are bad negotiators, but that's just me. I did get an A in negotiations in business school, so I am kind of a decent source of information.

Did you go to Northwestern?

No, I went to Booth. I went to University of Chicago, so we make fun of Northwestern up the street. No, not really. A lot of my very good friends who are very smart people went to Northwestern. I have nothing against it. It's just a, you know, friendly rivalry. Um, it's because they're literally on opposite ends of Michigan Avenue in Chicago. They're like literally up and down the street from one another. Um, so anyway, uh, I think that that is the biggest— that's one of the best pieces of advice that I would, uh, impart to someone going into really any negotiation, but especially if you're talking about an acquisition or an exit. Um, negotiation is not a zero-sum game. You did it wrong if it is.

It absolutely isn't.

You're not going to win the negotiation.

Was that your first, uh, business ownership?

Um, no, but it was the most significant. I have owned and run a small online business. It's a, it's actually a recipe blog since, yikes, 2014 or something like that. Um, it's mostly just me. I had a few part-time contract employees. Um, it's a content site, but it was monetized, um, and it's you know, it's an LLC, it's registered as a business.

You're not the person behind Pantry Mama, are you?

No, my site's called A Clean Bake. I don't run it anymore, but it is still live online. So it's a whole foods-focused recipe site. Okay. That was my first business. Well, I actually, as a preteen, I ran a nonprofit that I founded. So entrepreneurship's been in my DNA for a really long time. My parents are both small business owners and entrepreneurs. So it goes way back. But this is the first business that I've owned that I would say is sort of consequential to more than just me. Sure. Because the businesses that I run before have mostly, you know, have been, let's say, 90% my work and effort and input. And then I had, you know, a VA and I had I had a couple other like content contributors at one point on the blog. Um, but the reality is like if I had suddenly decided to close down the business with a day's notice, they wouldn't have been super affected because they had tons and tons of other clients and I was kind of just a small piece of their overall income pie. This is the first time I've run a business with full-time employees, you know, more, uh, more entrenched contractors. Um, this is, this is like the first sort of consequential business that I've run and owned.

Okay, so how long before— so you, you acquired, uh, 100% ownership when?

2023.

Okay. Um, and then you looked to start selling it when?

I acquired in something like August of '23, and I actually started selling less than a year later. Didn't close for quite some time, but started talking to buyers in July of '24. And just to be clear, that was not ever my intention. My intention was not to flip the business. Um, I did not have the, um, I, I always intended to sell, but I had like a 5 to 10 year timeline in mind when I bought out my business partner. The, the market just sucked, and running this business was just not— it wasn't all about the money, you know. The, the running this business was pretty thankless because the market was so challenging. And, um, there were some things about the business that should have been established early on to put us on stronger footing that were not. This predated me, um, and I could only do so much to fix it, but I was always playing catch-up And it put us in a really unfortunate position. So I really sort of sat with that for a long time and tried to figure out why, okay, you know, I thought it was bothering me and making it more difficult than it needed to be because I was doing this work for someone else's gain. And then when I was doing it for my gain, it still didn't really feel better. And so I had to really, I had to really kind of dig deep and try to figure out what was going on, because on paper it was great. You know, I was my own boss. I had it. I work with a team that I love and respect, and we're all friends, and it's, it's all very positive. We were doing work that felt good, and it was good quality work that I was proud of. I just couldn't figure out what it was. Um, but it was that the company was just never— not never gonna grow, but the, the growth trajectory was very, very difficult given, you know, all the things that had happened in the economy, plus the introduction of AI, plus budgets being cut. It just— there was plus, plus, plus. There were— every time I would turn around, there was another internal or external hurdle that I had to overcome. And I just honestly got tired of hurdles. It, it's— I'm not intimidated by challenges. I love a challenge. I love, you know, learning new things and seeing how far I can push myself, but they weren't positive challenges. They didn't feel like learning opportunities. They felt like they were taking years off my life, to be totally honest, and they were taking time away from my family. And what's the point of being an entrepreneur if you're not doing something that you're truly passionate about and can't live without doing, and you don't have much control over your own schedule. You know, I wasn't— it wasn't like I had tons of flexibility because I was always needed in the business, but I wasn't doing something I was passionate about and like loved. I like— I, I really liked it, and I was passionate about making sure my team had a great place to work, but it just, it just wasn't adding up. That's the only way I can really summarize it. So I realized that, you know, maybe it was time to just exit. And I still wanted to work. I still wanted to do this work, which is why I stayed on. And that was always part of my intention going in, you know, in terms of how I was envisioning the perfect buyer and deal. I went into every conversation confident in, you know, my ability to say, yes, I do want to stay on. I, you know, I do want to continue to support this business. I just thought that it just became really clear to me that our future was in diversified, a diversified offering. And that was not something that I wanted or frankly had the bandwidth to build. And so I figured we would just plug into another agency and it worked out pretty much exactly as I envisioned.

Yeah. Did you— so how long did you you agree to work for the Acquirer?

There's no clause, uh, in my contract. Um, so sort of indefinitely, but technically I can leave at any point. Okay. Um, which was surprising to me, to be honest. I, um, assumed that there would be like a 12-month contract, you know, something like that. Um, I think that this, this, uh, new parent company is very trust-based, you know. They're— they are— they rely a lot on the trust and loyalty of their employees. And I think that's where that mentality came from, that I do have a contract, um, but it's more just sort of the terms of my employment, not necessarily related— there's nothing in there about my tenure. Um, it's more like, you know, non-compete stuff like that. But I'm not obligated to stay. Um, I think that they were confident that they could provide a good work environment that I would want to stay in. And frankly, I prefer that too. And that's how I managed, you know, I never had terms with my employees. And we— I mean, term, uh, employment terms, like term limits or whatever. Um, I always just was committed to creating a workplace that they would want to stay in. And that's how you get, you know, good work and longevity out of your employees. So I was glad to go to a place that also subscribed to that mentality.

Do you see yourself starting a business in the future or buying a business in the future?

I don't know about buying. I'll be honest, um, I'm pretty particular about how I think a business should be run. Um, I don't think I would buy. I, I won't say never, but it— my first instinct would be to build rather than buy. Um, knowing me, yeah, I'll probably start something. I don't know what, I don't have any plans. I just know my brain. I love building, you know. I love like startups and, and getting, uh, getting to be one of the people who, um, gets to exercise the potential in an idea or a, you know, a, a business, really. Um, I, I love that transformation. You know, you work really hard and then one, one day you get to look back and go, look how far we've come, look how much we've done and what we've endured and what we've accomplished. I just I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.

So did you play with Legos as a child?

Weirdly, not really. However, I have, um, two kids, 8 and 3, who are obsessed with Legos, so now I'm getting into Legos. Um, Magna-Tiles also, I can't recommend those highly enough for—

I haven't seen those.

All ages. Okay, they're magnetic plastic building tiles.

Okay.

And you can make all kinds of things out of that. I mean, you can, you can build almost anything. My, my older kid, uh, built an airport, like with the terminal and the jet bridges and all that. It was so creative. It was so cool. Um, but I see lots of people build, you know, castles and, you know, go for like the height, the height move. Um, but yeah, we're big, we're big into like creative play and building. Anything, you know, Magna-Tiles, Legos, Duplos. That's a big thing in my household. So maybe I have two aspiring entrepreneurs coming after me. I don't know. Or engineers.

You never know.

Either way. Engineers probably would be, you know, I think engineering is a more stable profession to get into than entrepreneurship. But You know, it's sort of the family legacy at this point being small business owners.

So yeah, we'll see. I think that, that, that building component is, is the dopamine rush for entrepreneurs.

I think so too. Yeah, I really do. I think that's sort of, um, possibly why the founder left. He wanted to— he loves the rush of like starting something.

It's very common.

I'm more of the middle Yeah, I'm, I'm more a fan of the middle, not like the very— I don't like the instability of like the first days of a business. I like when we're, you know, building the momentum and we're like, we can see the path in front of us and I, I know what to do and how to do it. I just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other. I, I find that really satisfying because like I said, you know, you keep putting one foot in front of the other and eventually you get to look back and see how far you've come.

And that's really motivating to me to keep going and And entrepreneurs are like, most of them, not all of them, but it's almost they'd prefer to be in chaos. And when it gets to the point where you're talking about building processes and teams and managing, and it's like most of them are like, I'm done. I don't have any interest in that.

Right. And that was Nat. And that was partly how and why we worked so well together, because I'm the absolute inverse of that. I'm the everything needs a process, everything needs to be organized. How do you work without organization? I literally cannot wrap my brain around the level of chaos that he could tolerate. Um, so we balanced each other, each other really well in the early days. But then I think eventually the company naturally gets to the point where you cannot function with that level of chaos. You must have organization and structure. You know what I mean? And that's where he was kind of like, I don't, I don't think I can do this. Like, this doesn't work for me anymore. And I was like, well, it works great for me.

My quintessential example is Roy and Walt Disney, you know, and Roy being the, the the Nora, um, right, and Walt, the systems guy.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think the, the intersection of those two, uh, usually not in one person, um, is where the—

no, I don't know how that— what, that's called schizophrenia, honestly—

is where the magic happens.

It can't be the same person.

Yeah, you know, if, if you get—

for sure, yeah—

that vision that visionary and that operator, you know.

Yes. It sounds like you've studied EOS.

I am a huge fan.

The visionary and operator thing. Yes.

Rocket, Rocket Ulysses is what you're referencing, that book.

We're actually implementing EOS at MBE. So, we're going through the whole, you know, the quarterly, we have a quarterly meeting in 2 weeks to set our goals for the next quarter and working on a new accountability chart and all that stuff. But, Yeah, I really like it for that exact reason, because I think it's the right kind of structure, enough structure, um, the right kind of distinction for everybody's different roles and responsibilities. And it does it in a really digestible— and I'm like, just to be clear, I'm like not being paid for this or anything. I'm, I just am impressed by what I've seen so far, um, as I've gotten more familiar with the US. But anyway, I like how it implements enough structure without being suffocating. And I think a lot of people are very easily suffocated by structure or are scared off by even the concept of structure because it feels like it will be suffocating. So I've been really impressed by that particular system. I'm sure there's lots of others out there that are that operate similarly. Um, but I think that's a great example, honestly, of like, you grow to a point where you will collapse under, you know, the company will collapse under its own weight if it doesn't have the right— I think of it as scaffolding. That's how I describe it. The scaffolding of the business is what keeps it upright as it grows. And that kind of thing is the systems, the organization, the hierarchy, you know, the the order of it. And that's my expertise. Boy, that makes me sound cool.

Well, no, I'm a huge fan of EOS and I talk about it in my book and the impact that it had on our business. And I would never run a business without EOS because what happens, my experience and what I've seen, but my personal experience is the business will grow to the level of the visionary and whatever they can tolerate. Because again, they're not process people. And so whatever the limitations of that founder visionary, be it time or skill, they'll grow to that and then they'll stop because they can't go any further. And EOS is a structure an operating system for your computer, you know, an operating system for your business that allows the others to be able to move it past the visionary.

Right, right.

And I think it's uber critical because what I found in my own business was we tried to implement EOS ourselves initially, and we failed. And then a couple of years later, we tried it and we brought in an implementer, a paid implementer to help us.

Yeah. Yeah, we work with somebody as well.

He's phenomenal. I really— And it's, I think with existing companies, it's critical because you don't know what you don't know. And you don't, like, I didn't understand why the implementation failed for like 2 years after we had been working with the professional.

Oh, interesting. What triggered your understanding of it? What was the catalyst?

I'm not sure what the catalyst was, but the reason that it didn't work was because there was not any trust in the team. And I remember, once I realized that, kind of being blindsided by it. Because if you had asked me if there was trust in the team, I would have said yes.

Well, sure, of course.

But the way, you know, defining trust is the important part. So I'm sure you're familiar with Patrick Lencioni's Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Have you read that book? Okay.

So, I mean, I've seen, yeah, I've seen, I've read the summary of the book.

It's a great book.

I know. Yeah.

But, and as a matter of fact, we revisit it as a leadership team from time to time. The fundamental element, the first element in there is trust. And so, like, I can trust you to, you know, like if this were an in-person meeting, to not jump across the table and stab me with a knife. Right. I mean, there's a certain level of trust that's inherent in society.

No, of course. Yeah, of course.

But what we're talking about in the context of business is the level of trust that anybody in the organization can tell somebody something that is potentially uncomfortable.

Right.

And there are not any repercussions. Right. That's the level of trust.

And I think that is one of the hardest things for a manager to do because it inherently violates their ego. Yes. You know, if you have to sit there and I mean, I've had this experience, like I've been berated by employees. You know, I had to do layoffs in, gosh, what year was that? '22 or '23. Um, and obviously people were really upset about it and they had every right to be, but there was one employee who just sat there like berating me on the phone and— or on this, it was a Zoom call. And I remember that was like a real turning point for me where I had to, I had to like very consciously say in my head, this is— she deserves this, she's entitled to this. Yes, it is hurting my feelings, No, I am not allowed to respond defensively. It really took a lot of, I don't know, you know, like, I guess like self-control was really what it was, but humility, absolutely. Um, it was a very humbling day, I'll tell you that. But every time since that my employees have come to me and told me things that I don't want to repeat here because they were extremely confidential and things that I have never in my life had a boss that I would ever even think about the possibility of telling them something like this. Right. It is— it's such a good day for me. Like, even if it's a bad thing they're telling me, I am so genuinely honored that they trust me enough. Um, and I try to reciprocate that trust and tell them everything I possibly can, be as transparent as possible, um, you know, sometimes to the— just toeing the line of propriety, like, but I'd rather people know about what's going on in the business, what's going on with me. I mean, I don't tell them like deeply personal things, obviously, but, um, if, you know, if something's going on with me and I'm maybe not working the way that I am— that they're used to me working, or not responding the way that I'm— that they're used to me responding, I will absolutely say something's going on, I might not be able to respond the way that I would otherwise. Or, we had a bad quarter. I want you all to know exactly what the numbers look like and exactly what my plan is, rather than just being like, it's fine, everything's fine. We had a bad quarter, but don't worry about it. Which I think a lot of companies sweep, a lot of management teams rather sweep so much under the rug or sugarcoat things. And I not only does that not help anyone, it also is so patronizing and so deeply undermines any trust that you have established.

It blows trust up. And, and totally.

Yes.

For me, in the context of EOS, you know, we, you have your, your core values and, and those are who you are, not aspirational, but like who you are as an organization. And to me, we actually have achieved it. I had said that, you know, this is when I know there's trust. But it took several years.

I love how you linked, I like how you linked that to like the core values are, it sounds like inherently linked to trust.

100%.

Because if, if That's great.

To me, the benchmark was someone can call me out when I am not exhibiting that value.

And that's how it should be.

No question. And when it—

But that's so rare. It is. I mean, in reality, you know, I think almost every manager I guarantee will be like, my employees trust me and they're loyal to me and they will call me out, you know, whatever, whatever that, uh, whatever their definition of it is. I guarantee in 99% of those cases, that's not the— the employees feel very differently. But I don't— I think a lot of managers lack empathy, like true deep empathy. And that is— I think that's the key to good management, not I like my employees. I'm nice to my employees, but true empathy where you are able to selflessly and egolessly put yourself in your employees' shoes and understand what it feels like to be managed by you. And does that make you feel good? If not, you're doing something wrong.

Well, in EOS, I don't know if you've gotten to this part yet, but that to me is the distinction between management and leadership. And they're two separate things and they're both necessary.

Fair point. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, absolutely.

But I think empathy is important in both of them. But like leadership, leadership requires a different level of empathy and a different level of humility. But I remember—

Absolutely.

Long ago, I took a— I personally, not the company, I personally took a contract CFO job for a startup that I thought had great potential. And the visionary was a psychopath, narcissist.

It was— Sounds really like a very pleasant place.

No, it wasn't. And, you know, like within 6 months, I said, Sounds really toxic. I'm leaving and lose my number. Like, I don't— I do not want to hear from you ever again. But yeah, what it taught me being on the other side of it, I don't think that I was— I think he was an extreme example of the way I led and managed at times. But what it gave me was this perspective. And I'm like, oh, This is what my team feels like when I act this way.

I think that that is something that not a lot of people can recognize where, like, that drawing those parallels, that's a hard thing to do, you know, and again, requires a level of humility and sort of stepping outside yourself and honestly evaluating yourself and your behavior and your impact on others and Um, I, you know, I have had a similar experience where, um, I was— I worked in consulting but for a very small consulting firm prior to Growth Machine, and a lot of the sort of situations we found ourselves in were similar to some of the Growth Machine circumstances, um, at times. And I could definitely remember what it felt like to be on the receiving end of certain management decisions. And this also Just coincidentally, they ended up— it was a small consulting firm. They ended up selling to a larger consulting firm. And so I went through the acquisition process as an employee and boy, was that impactful. And boy, did that inform how I handled really everything about the, uh, you know, the acquisition process and even just sort of like interviewing potential buyers, things like that. That was always very top of mind, what it felt like to be the employee being brought over in an acquisition. Um, and how terrible it could be, quite honestly, if not handled really carefully. Um, but prior to the acquisition, even just like I said, communication style, management decisions, um, things that impact employees more than they impact the decision makers, yet the decision makers are the ones making the decision. It, it can— you can either be one of these people who thinks, well, I survived it, so they will too. That's, that's never, that's never the solution. Just sort of, in my opinion, that's never the solution. Um, and that's such a frankly kind of abusive kind of way to approach things because you know how crappy it feels. Why would you impose that on someone else? So I try really hard to take the opposite approach, which is, you know, if something, if something feels familiar, I'm like, oh, that's because I've been through this on the other side of it. And so I, I work really hard to make the decision or make the change or make the whatever, um, that I would have wished my manager at the time had made. And I think that that alone has made me such a better manager and has taught me so much. Just by, again, like, you know, just by being empathetic and just by honestly not forgetting where I came from. I wasn't born the CEO of a company. I've been the entry-level guy. I've been the grunt work guy. I've been the just dump it on her desk, you know, she'll take care of it. I've been all of it, you know. I've come up through the ranks in my career. I've had a lot of strange jobs, you know, strange relative to where I am now, and It's all taught me something, but most of all, it's taught me what it's like to not be in charge and to not have control over your working conditions. And so it's taught me how to take care of the people that work for me because I remember being that person.

I love that.

And I think a lot of leaders forget what that feels like.

It's easy to forget.

Yeah. Yeah.

I have one final question. Did you make money on the flip?

Uh, yes, I did. Not— I mean, I'm not going to retire on this, um, but I— yes, I, I was profitable.

Good.

Um, so yeah, that helped. That helped justify a lot of late nights and, and sleepless nights and time, you know, time missed, uh, with my kids and things like that over the last few years.

So how do people—

that wasn't my goal though.

Well, no, I mean, well, Don't feel bad about that. That's what—

that's— oh, I don't. I just want to be clear that like I always intended to continue working. My primary goal was quality of life improvement and lowering my mental load. It was the money part of it was like, if I'm profitable on this, I'll be happy. I'm not— like I said, I'm not looking to retire. I'm not looking to buy a yacht. I'm not looking to, you know, move to whatever, you know, Mallorca or what. I don't, I don't even know why I would move to Mallorca, but really the money was not the primary objective, but it doesn't suck. You know, it was, it was, it was, you know, but it can't, it can't ever, whether you're running or whether you're selling a business, it can't always be about the money. No, of course not. It can't. Yeah. Yeah, I want, you know, I want enough money to not have to worry about paying my mortgage and things like that. But I'm not, I'm not out there, you know, driving a Ferrari or anything. I drive a Honda.

You'd look good in a Ferrari.

Thank you. I have to remember how to drive manual, but my husband would be thrilled because he really likes—

I can't fit in Ferraris, so it's not going to be an issue.

I can. I'm very small. I would have no problem.

There'd have to be some vegetable oil applied to get me into it.

I bet if you buy a Ferrari, they could probably set you up.

It'd have to be a convertible too, because my head would hit the ceiling.

So sure. I also don't have that problem, but I would prefer a convertible. You know, actually, I think I'd rather drive a Porsche than a Ferrari. It's more my style. Since we're dreaming. Hey, I have a sunroof in my CR-V, so I am good. I drive a mom car.

How do people, uh, connect with you, Nora, if they want to learn more about you?

The best place would be on LinkedIn. Um, you can search my name. Good luck spelling it. It's right, it's right here. Um, you can also, uh, I have a website, norahslesinger.com, which you can also just click through from LinkedIn. So, um, the most efficient way would be to go find me on LinkedIn, say hello, send me a connect request. I would just request that if you, if you do connect, write me a note saying I heard you on The Profitable Creative, because otherwise I'll think it's some weird cold outreach. And I don't like, I don't like when people sell to me.

Yeah, I mean, it's real.

There are pockets that are great. So I do spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, but the cold pitches on LinkedIn just make it feel really icky. So I, um, I actually wrote a post about this a while back on LinkedIn. I decline about 99% of my connect requests that I receive, unless it's somebody that I know or somebody that writes me a note. And, you know, if someone writes me a note and says, I heard you on this podcast, I'll definitely accept. I really love connecting with people. So perfect. Please reach out.

We'll have those links in the show notes. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a text and let us know what you want to hear and we'll get rid of Nora.

I love it. I get that often. Should I be taking this personally? Every time I'm on a podcast, people say, don't have her back. No, I'm honestly not very easily offended. So work harder next time. Don't challenge me, please. Noted. Don't tempt me. I was gonna say, is it a challenge or a temptation? Temptation. Yeah, fair enough.

Listen, until then, ta-ta for now.