Fear of Success: Dr. Albert Bramante

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Albert. Albert, give me your last name again. Sure.

Brimonte.

Brimonte. Sorry. Apologies. Welcome to the show, Albert.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me, Chris. I'm really happy to be here.

So tell us briefly what your entrepreneurial background is, just so the audience knows your bona fides.

Sure. So I've been a talent agent and college professor for the past 22 years, and I represent actors in the New York area, New York City metropolitan area, for film, TV, theater, commercial, and print projects. I've been doing this, you know, for a while. I have clients who booked, like, Law Order. I have clients that were on Broadway, Off-Broadway. So, and so my job pretty much is like helping, you know, advocate for artists work for them, support them as best as I possibly could.

How'd you get into that business?

So I was always interested sort of in the, um, in the, uh, performing art, you know, arts, not like almost in an ancillary way. So when I was in high school, I was in a drama club for a good number of years. And, you know, then in college I did take some acting classes, but I really didn't think anything much of it because I was really determined to be a psychologist, clinical psychologist, and college professor. So I was strictly a psych major, and then both— I did my bachelor's and master's. And after that, when I received— after I received my master's degree, I found myself through, you know, circumstance in working in New York, because at that time when I received my master's degree was the same year 9/11 had happened. So I was, you know, being that I wasn't too far from 9/11 and I knew people that were volunteering, I was recruited to help volunteer. And in my time of volunteering, I was partnering up with a lot of actors that were, you know, that were also giving their time to volunteering and advocacy and all that. Some of them were well-known actors. And so I found my, you know, found myself coming back to my days and decided I would give acting a try, you know, being that I was, you know, in New York, which is one of the acting, you know, headquarters. So I decided to do it and I enjoyed it, but it wasn't really for me. But what I did enjoy was the actors, the working alongside of the actors. Is what really brought me to joy.

So, okay, back up a second. Psychology major, master's in psychology. Why did you not pursue that?

Well, I sort of did, but at that time, and full-time, what I was doing during those 2 years between— well, 2 or 3 years before my master's and doctorate, I was working for the American Red Cross. I worked for the Mental Health Association of New York City, and they were full-time positions, but I also enjoyed acting. And then 2003, I was laid off from my— it was a grant-funded position. I was, you know, the grant was not renewed. And so I then just, you know, was hired to be an adjunct professor at the time at a community college in my area. In psychology. And so at that time I was still, you know, acting a little bit. I have more time now because I was an adjunct, but I realized how much I liked working with actors. So, and I still like psychology. So I launched my first company 2004, my first talent agency, and, um, and I was teaching part-time, and then I decided you know, add more to the plate, you know, because I wasn't sure what direction I wanted to go to. I was still in my 20s. And so I said, you know, I made the decision to go back to school, okay? And I'm gonna go back to school for my PhD because that's what I've always wanted to do, you know. I've always wanted a PhD. And, you know, I'm halfway there. I wasn't sure what was going to happen yet, you know, if my agency was going to take off or not. So I said, you know what, I'm gonna go back for my PhD. And that's what I did. Now, during that time, you know, when it came time to do my capstone research project, what I decided to do was to bring, you know, combine both of my roles together, which was the idea of bringing both worlds together. So my dissertation, because one problem that I kept noticing as a talent agent was there were plenty of actors that were self-sabotaging.

Hmm, interesting.

Okay. And so I was like, I really want to know what is happening here. You know, why are people You know, why are actors self-sabotaging? And so I decided, you know what, I'm gonna do, you know, I'll do my dissertation on that. And what did you research?

What did your research find?

Sure. What I really found, what was interesting, what I found was that fear was definitely a factor. Um, fear of success. It also had a lot to do with, with personal habits that I found, because one of the things I— one of the variables that I could say, one of the theories that I, um, tested my dissertation with was a well-known model in the '80s in personality theory called the Big Five, which are 5 essential traits: uh, openness, uh, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Okay, and those were important traits. Now beyond that, because human beings have— we're all— we all score a range on these Big Five, and what I found was that actors that scored high in neuroticism, which is referred to as, you know, do you get— are you prone to anxiety, are you prone to stress, and then low in conscientiousness, discipline. So if you combine those two factors it's almost a perfect storm for self-sabotage. Interesting. And so that was one of my biggest findings, I would say, throughout the entire thing, was just the combination of the one-two punch of high neuroticism, low conscientiousness, and then also there was a moderate fear of success.

So it was more about the other two traits than it was the fear?

Yeah, I mean, fear definitely popped up, but it was definitely more— that was probably, I think, a little bit of my surprising finding because I thought fear would stronger, but it wasn't.

Well, as you say that, that doesn't completely surprise me because I think fear is a normal response to, you know, and everybody experiences it. It is more how do you deal with or react to fear, and if you have certain characteristics of your personality, you might deal with fear more productively.

Right. Well, and that's definitely a part of it too. The one thing that I addressed, which I think a lot of people weren't too familiar with, was the fear of success. Not fear of failure. I mean, fear of failure is definitely up there. But fear of success is something that's not often talked about. Or acknowledged. Yeah, consciously at least.

And how do— how do— what does that manifest itself as? What symptoms do you have if you have fear of success?

Well, that could be, again, self-sabotage, protecting— because self-sabotage is a protective mechanism. Yes. So, um, perhaps maybe what, what could happen here is the way it would look like would be this is an audition. Maybe, you know, instead of going on the audition or interview, you know, if you're for non-actors, interview, meeting would be to find reasons not to go. Yes. I'm too tired. It's not worth my time. This is all consciously.

Yes.

But oftentimes what's happening here is you're afraid of the outcome. So, what happens? Because my life is going to change.

That is interesting. So, would it be appropriate to say that it's not necessarily the fear of success as it is the fear of change?

Right. It definitely is definitely the fear of change. But it's the change that's going to be a result of that success.

Yeah, I mean, so I, I, my, my business coach had me read a book. I don't remember the author. I think he's a Stanford professor, psychologist, uh, The Big Leap.

Um, okay.

And, and in that book, he talks about the, uh, he, he defines it as an upper limit problem where you get to the point where the outcome is unpredictable, and, and that's where your you know, he, he said your brain starts self-sabotaging, um, even to the point where it will develop into physical characteristics, uh, where your, your brain will shut your body down to keep you from going into that unknown. Um, is that what you're talking about, essentially?

Uh, yes. Yeah, it's the unknown, you know. That's absolutely a big part of it. And what we— what is known as comfort. So it's like staying in your comfort zone. Um, unfortunately, we can't really advance as a society or as human beings if all we're doing is staying in our comfort zone.

Yeah, that's, that's very true. So, uh, in your— how have you applied that, you know, research and, and your, uh, training into how you you know, manage talent?

Well, I, I think part of it is just talking things through. Um, you know, if an actor gets an urge to not go on the audition, let's talk about it. Um, and, you know, if it's a legitimate thing, okay, you know. But, uh, uh, sometimes, you know, I found myself sometimes talking an actor off the ledge, you know, sometimes.

Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, it reminds me of a conversation I had with my forum of entrepreneurs recently. And, you know, the topic was essentially, I want to do these things, but I don't do these things. And like, you know, unpacking that. And my very pedantic brain says you do what you want to do, right? So like, if you tell yourself, I want to do this thing, but you don't do it, then I don't think you really want to do it. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, there's partly reason, but then we have to look at what's the motivation for you not wanting to do it. Is it the fact that maybe you just, you know, if it's something you generally don't want to do, then that's a whole nother story. Mm-hmm. Um, but why are you— do you not want to do it because of fear? Because your brain will easily talk— consciously will talk you out of anything that was— sure, sure. And it could easily talk you out of doing something that, um, is scary to stay— to keep you alive and keep you comfortable. That's what the brain does. Does a great job of doing that.

And so how do you coach somebody through that? Like, okay, acknowledging, like, I have this fear. I want this, but then I also have this fear. How do you overcome that practically?

Well, we role-play. Like, okay, what could be the possible fear? It could be Life could change relationships. Um, it could also have to do with worthiness. You know, do you feel worthy of success? Do you feel worthy of money? Because that's a big factor too, that, um, I didn't really discover this too much in my dissertation, but just overall research later was how money views play a huge role into this too. Like, what's your relationship with money? And how do you view money? Because sometimes we are ingrained by society sometimes to view money as evil, you know, like there's that misguided belief, but it is still prevalent that money is the root of all evil. And that's not really—

that's not what the— that's not what Jesus said.

No, not at all. It got attributed to that for some reason. He got paraphrased into that, but it was the love of money. You know, that money is neutral. So that's the whole thing. And so that may be examination. Let's talk about your view of money. You know, what is your, um, or either there we got messages from our parents and family or society that, you know, having too much money makes people corrupt or greedy or evil. So we have to address that, you know, and that again, money doesn't do that.

No, I think money, and this is observation of myself and others, but I think money just reveals what's already there.

You know, the true character.

Absolutely.

100% agree.

And it removes some of the barriers, right? So like, if you have some tendencies that are negative, and you become wealthy and powerful, then some of those guardrails come off and like you can get away with stuff that you couldn't get away with before. And so those bad characteristics surface. But I find it interesting because I agree with you. There are a lot of people that have that thought that money is bad and people with money are bad. But I think that's kind of a convenient excuse, right? So, if you have the insight that you are who you are, money just amplifies it potentially, then it's really not the money that's the problem, it's you that's the problem.

Yeah. Well, it's your relationship to money. It's not money. Money is neutral. Like money doesn't mean, you know, it's just, it's a thing. So, it's, but that's exactly right. It's your relationship to it. It's you that we have to talk and address your relationship to it, your view of that, your view of abundance. And then that comes into, ties into your identity. You believe you're worthy.

Yes.

I guess that's another conversation too.

Well, yeah. And I find it fascinating that a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, seek worthiness through the business. It's like the opposite effect, right? So it's, it's still that, am I worthy? Some people use it as an excuse to not have success while others use it as a substitute.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, and some people are consumed by it., you know, the other end too. But I think a lot of times another thing, at least in my community, my audience with actors, there's somehow the myth or romantic— you could say romanticizing of the starving artist. Yeah, that persona, that archetype, that, you know, starving or struggling artist. And that I think also impacts the subconscious thinking, okay, 'in order to be a true artist, I really can't make money.' And that's a limiting belief and that's going to hold you back. That's definitely going to add to the fear. That's going to add to even holding you back if you truly are engaged in that.

Yeah. And I think that it's easier to— and this has definitely been my experience— it's easier to look at something external to yourself and say that's the problem rather than looking at yourself to see what the problem potentially is. In other words, like, well, money is the problem. No, the money is not the problem. You're the problem. Well, it's easier to blame money than it is to—

Well, yeah, you're not looking at the fundamental fact. The common denominator here is yourself. You know, and that's— I think a lot of times we don't— that's the last place we look most of the time, is really internally. Yeah, just like it's the same thing goes when some people are in relationship problems and they blame their partner and say, it's, you know, it's all this person, or, or my parents, or because, you know, this happened to me. And no, it's me, you know. And that's where sometimes it takes like, no, I'm the bottleneck in my life and business sometimes.

Well, I wouldn't say sometimes. I'd say virtually all the time. Like, I mean, yeah, there are external factors, right? Um, but, but largely you can't control them. So what difference does it make? Um, it, it's what can you control, and what you can control is yourself. Um, but that, like you said, is the, the last place I looked. It's the last place a lot of people look because That's a challenge. And I know lots of people that just get stuck in patterns of behavior. And like you said, they'll blame everybody else. But it's like the common denominator in all of these relationships, all of these situations, is you. Like, and I'm not like saying you're a bad person, but at least self-reflective, like, "Okay, what am I doing?

What am I contributing to this situation that keeps recurring in my life?" And that's where it takes an honest look at is how am I contributing to my problem? And most of the time, it's, I would say, a good part, if not all.

Of it, unfortunately. Unfortunately. I mean, it's, it's something—

I mean, yes, it's, it's— I would say it's both. But the unfortunate thing is, and if it's hard pill to swallow, but at the same time, the fortunate part of it, it's so liberating once you fully embrace that. It's like, there's nothing to be ashamed about. I'm free. I can, I can change. I can do whatever I want once I know this and once I can hold myself accountable.

To that. Yes. And I think, I think the thing that I've seen that's prevalent is the need for others, whether that is a therapist or a coach or a community, or all three, that can lovingly speak to your blind spots, lovingly speak to those patterns, right? This is what I see, Albert. I don't know if you see it, but this is what I see. And, you know, it's not a judgment. It's not a condemnation. But like, because you trust me, because you know I have your best interest at heart, you're more prone to listen as opposed to somebody that just tells you, hey, Albert, you're an asshole, right? Like, I'm not going to listen to that.

Of course, because that's an insult. That's not a constructive criticism, right? And, and that's more of a projection on your end, right, than me. Um, you know, and you know, that, that's, um, because usually if somebody ever said that, I would turn around and say, well, that's your opinion. Sorry, you know, feel that way. Um, I'm not— that doesn't give me anything. Um, But if you tell me this is what you don't like that I'm doing, or this is what's holding me back, then that's more effective for conversation and helpful.

Yeah, but you have to be ready to receive it. I know from my own experience, like, I've been told things that were very profound, but I did not take them to heart until I was ready to hear them.

Like, oh, absolutely. And we don't, you know, I mean, naturally when we hear someone say, I got some feedback, or I got, we automatically, it's like our defenses go up.

Get defensive. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, but this, but that, but that, you know, and what I've always found is I would say almost all the time that this happened to me, there's been some helpful lean into that. We were like, okay, I may not have agreed with you at the moment, but I'm like, you know, they're not wrong, you know.

Because I respect you, because I care for you, because you're important to me, I'll, I'll hear it, but it may not land yet. But, you know, if, if it's just some guy off the street or somebody you have an interaction with, you don't have a relationship, you're, you're, you're going to dismiss it.

Of course. And discard it in a sense.

Yeah, I think one of the most powerful tools, and I don't— I think I may have got to pick this up in marriage counseling. One of the most powerful tools, and I'm very bad at using it, but it is highly effective, is when you have a situation where you're upset is to be able to communicate it in terms of, "When you do this, I feel this." So it's not a condemnation of the action. It's not, "I want you to change this behavior." I'm just telling you how I feel. And that requires you to be honest about it, like saying, "Look, I really am not trying to change you. I'm not trying to criticize you. I'm just telling you how I feel." Right. And when you do that sincerely, it's very effective because, you know, the other person doesn't feel like you're attacking them and doesn't feel like you're trying to get them to do something different or criticize them. Right. But it's hard.

It's hard in the moment. See it from the perspective that, you know, at that point it's like you're framing it as unhelpful, and that's, that's more gonna be at least more likely to land. Maybe not like that the exact moment.

Yes.

At some point later on, maybe, you know, a week or, you know, more than that. Um, but the important thing is to be constructive and, and helpful. Because even as a college professor, like, when I have evaluation, I instruct my students to write evaluations. Like, um, first I said, number one, be honest, but if there's something you're not happy with, explain it. Yes. You know, in the evaluation, because that'll be helpful for me or any other of your other professors for the future. What can we do in the future? Um, if you tell me you didn't like the class, I think I'd like to know why, you know. Now maybe it's just something that by chance you just didn't like it. Fine, that's gonna, you know, my cup of tea. I'm not everyone's cup of tea. I've learned, you know, accept that. But however, if there's something I can do in the future, that's gonna be very helpful, you know, that I know. Because if I get, you know, consistently, regardless of people saying, if I get consistent, you know, constructive remarks, then I know, okay, maybe this is something I need to think about, you know, in the future.

Yeah, look, look for the pattern. You know, I'm, I'm really been working on that, uh, personally, is, is what are the patterns of my behavior? And that, you know, oftentimes we're blind to, um, we don't see our own patterns. The, the analogy I was given a long time ago. It's hard to read the label when you're inside the bottle. Um, you, you know, it— you, you— I, I think fundamentally never understand how your other people perceive you, right?

Right.

You don't know what they see. Even your most intimate long-term relationships, um, what they see about you is different than what you perceive about yourself. It's just a matter of perspective. And if you have somebody that cares about you, that is willing to share that perspective, that can be enormously helpful.

Exactly.

But if you're, if you're not interested, um, you know, I, I guess that's the kind of the point, is to understand that your perspective is limited.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why it's really important for everyone to work with a coach or somebody, you know, that can see, that's neutral.

Yeah. Yes. And I think it's very important to, you know, if you don't like your situation, whatever it is, it could be a relationship, it could be the business, it could be your job, whatever. What is— why— this is where I started. Why do I feel the way that I do? Like, just really, really sitting with the feeling because you said comfort. There's this tendency for us to avoid feelings that we don't like. So if we're sad, if we're angry, if we're fearful, like, we don't want to stay there. So we just do something to move past it, distract us, whatever. But if we'll take the time to sit with the feeling, that negative feeling that we don't like, and try to understand it, like, okay, what is making me feel this way? Why am I anxious? Why am I angry? That's where I started, because that was, to me, foundational to understanding myself. Like, okay, why am I feeling this way?

Yeah, no, and that's very important to consider. To look at, and that takes examination and sometimes even taking your ego aside, you can get some really profound insights as to—

Yes. I mean, I have found, I truly believe that the vast majority of my problems in business have been a result somehow of my ego. Either protecting my ego or projecting my ego, or I don't know all the psychological terms, but like it, it centers around me.

Yes, 100%.

Well, Albert, this has been very interesting information. How do people find you if they want to learn more about you?

Sure, so you can find me on my website, albertbramante.com. Or you can find me on social media. I'm on LinkedIn. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. Just search for my name and be happy to connect with you.

Beautiful. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember, you are not alone.