Fear Vs. Flow: Devon Kerns

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I'm your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Devin Kearns. Devin, welcome to the show.

Thank you, my friend. I'm happy to be here.

So why don't you tell our audience who Devin Kearns is and why they should listen to him?

You probably shouldn't. But, you know, as we were just talking before we came on air, the primary reason you started this podcast and the essence of that, I feel a deep resonance with my passion for serving those who feel a call to create in the world, particularly in business, is something that I haven't been able to shake for myself. And today, I haven't been able to shake in terms of service. And so what you're doing here and how you're serving through this dialogue and communication with people to hopefully bring a little bit of hope in some tougher times, and even when it's going well, how do we keep that vision going? So I've been an entrepreneur for 25 years. And I honestly don't know whether you want to— What's that?

They haven't cured you yet?

We haven't found the cure. I've taken a few pills here and there, but it seems to make it worse.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. I have this theory that there is actually some mental disorder that they will figure out that entrepreneurs have. But I don't know.

I think it's a good theory. It definitely— it's a different breed, right? I tell people all the time, it sounds good, particularly when you hear the end result of some of these stories. We, you know, the overnight success, the person who all of a sudden just, wow, what a story. Oh my gosh, I can't believe it. But they don't have no idea that it was 10 years of absolute hell prior to that. Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

I honestly don't know that that needs to be the case. I think that that is something that could change in our world. Maybe a different pill, if you will, in terms of how we build things. I think that hasn't been in alignment. And why we build things, probably more so. But I don't think I ever sought out simplicity, but I did find a way to build with ease.

Well, you talk about the way things— the way people build things. And what resonates with me on that is, I know for myself, and talking to a lot of entrepreneurs, both new and experienced and, and many years of experience, this idea that like, why are you doing what you're doing? And why are your goals or your expectations what they are? And I, I had a, a woman, Melinda Jackson, on, uh, the show fairly early on, and she's in her 30s and, and came to the conclusion that I'm doing this for me and I want to build the business for me, not the expectations of others in the industry or my entrepreneurial peers or what expectations my parents may have set upon me. I think that's very important to understand. You know, every entrepreneur wants to grow, but why? Like, because you can grow and actually things get worse and oftentimes do. So like, what's wrong with staying here? But I know from my own experience, I remember my wife looking at me and she just was like, 'When are you ever going to stop?' And I'm like, 'Well, did Rembrandt stop painting? Like, did Mozart stop composing?' No, I mean, that's just who we are, right? And then you've got people that, 'Well, okay, I'm just going to start this business and get it to this point, and then I'm going to go on to something else.' And I used to make fun of those, quote, serial entrepreneurs. End quote. But I think they may have actually figured it out because that's the part that gives you the satisfaction as an entrepreneur, not running and scaling a business and building teams. And all of that operational stuff is usually not what excites entrepreneurs. But then again, I don't know that they've got it completely right because it's like, I guess if I don't know. Tell me your thoughts on that.

There's a lot there, man. So for context, and I really hope this doesn't come across as bragging too much, but I've been on the larger end of over a half a billion dollar company starting with— we were about $12,500 away from having to shut it down, right? And And, and I lost all of that. And I went through the bumps and bruises to get there. What changed my life was not the loss of that business. And at the same time, I had invested in tech company and ended up shutting that down. It was around 2008 and all of the uncertainty there. What changed it for me was Unfortunately, it's super cliché, but it ends up being so true. And the truth came to me in the likes of a farmer in Zanesville, Ohio, where I moved after losing everything.

Unlikely place to find a hero, but—

Yeah. And I had spent so many years in my, you know, in my 20s, just all that ambition that you're talking about, all that drive and no real idea why. I just kept getting pushed in further and further and then thrown up on stage to teach things and train things and do things. And I was like, oh my God. And I come out of this thing with no thing other than a bank account, right? And I go to Zanesville, Ohio, because a buddy of mine invited me out there. And he's like, you just need to chill. You look like you've aged 10 years in a year. And we disappear. I'm drinking beer with good old boys. And this farmer finally looks at me after probably our 10th conversation. He goes, "What are you trying to sell me?" I'm like, "I didn't know I was." And he goes, "There's something about you that just feels like you're constantly trying to convince me of something, and I don't need anything. I'm the biggest ethanol farmer there is. I need nothing. What I think you need is to get your hands dirty and get back in the soil again." I was like, "You're probably right." And so we worked out an agreement, and I ended up going and shoveling corn into corn, you know, out of corn silos into a truck and blah, blah, blah.

And that sounds like a movie. We could make a movie.

Probably could be. Hopefully less of a Pauly Shore type movie and more interesting, but maybe. And after about a week to 2 weeks, it was amazing what nature did. But it slowed me down. And in that process, I did recognize the truth behind this cliché that I mentioned earlier, which is the journey is hands down the most important part. And how we bypass that on such a consistent basis to pursue something when we don't even know why we're pursuing it. You could have— we work with big—

Or even what you're pursuing.

Yeah, it gets lost in the mix of it all.

Right.

But man, it is so potent when you can get so present in whatever's in front of you. It doesn't matter how painful it is. It doesn't matter how exciting it is. If you can just be there, the level of fulfillment that comes out of that almost makes not only the journey easier, which is why I seek out ease, not simplicity. But the magnitude for which things just seemingly start coming your direction, making the entire process easier of whatever you're trying to create and whatever you're trying to build, there's just something attractive to it. And all of a sudden, all that hard work doesn't seem hard anymore. Regardless of how intense it may be, regardless of the the tight— the, um, I've taken myself out of all the day-to-day stuff, so I don't even know the word I'm looking for. But like the, the grind of it all, the emails of it all, right? Yeah. If, if you're doing that in a fluid state and knowing when you're supposed to be doing it, knowing when it's really calling to you, something changes. And, and, and it's changed the way I do business today. It's changed the way I lead. It's changed everything.

You talk about taking 2 weeks to work the soil, so to speak. And that reminds me, we— I'm part of a home church, and we were having this conversation last night about the Year of Jubilee. And, you know, in the Jewish tradition, there's a cycle of every 7 years, and then every 7 times 7, or 49 years. So, but every 7th year, they rested the land, and you didn't work it. And then in year 49 and 50, you actually didn't work it for 2 years, right? But I'm thinking, tying that with what you said, it's like, we have lost a natural rhythm when we are so far removed from our sustenance. Right? There's not a reason to follow those natural rhythms, because we have lights and because we can control our environment and because we can control our food supply and keep it fresh. And so, like, we created this dynamic where we can ignore those rhythms. But I think we do so at our peril. Like the idea of a sabbatical, where you take off every 7th year. You know, people would think you were crazy. Like, what are you doing? Nothing. It's a sabbatical. I'm not doing anything.

I think our greatest challenge is the no thing. Yes. I had a shaman after an ayahuasca journey, which is a plant medicine journey, look at this room which was filled with very successful people, very driven, ambitious people like we're talking about. And the morning after the journey, he looked at us and said, "Can you be as valuable doing nothing as you are the greatest something you would ever do?" Hmm. And I didn't quite— I don't think anybody got it when he asked it. But I could not get rid of that question. And that was about 4 years ago. And what I've come to realize is, for me, pursuing the preciousness of being alive, mm-hmm, understanding how unique and valuable that is, mm-hmm, not just me, but life itself, woke up this part of me that is what we're referencing here, which is no longer needing to do what I love, but loving what I do. Because I'm alive in it. If I'm doing the dishes and I can get totally present and make some sort of— Alan Watts talks about making a movement out of it, almost a dance out of it, right? Whatever you're doing, pulling weeds from the garden, to love what you're doing, regardless of the intentionality, regardless of anything else, is to love the being alive. And And it flipped a switch in me that literally has changed the game. I mean, the curiosities I see, the deliciousness of life in any aspect of it has totally changed. And I'm so grateful I found that too, because somehow at 40, I found myself at 47, also choosing to have a kid, which has only allowed for me to bring in— that presence with her and watching all the newness from her eyes and experiencing it with her, not just wishing I could. And it really is a special thing. I mean, I feel so grateful for life itself and this 7-year cycle that you're even talking about, right? What do we— what's really happening? What is it about 7 years? We know that our cells are reborn every 7 years. We know that most things function in 7-year cycles. But we're not honoring that rhythm and that flow on a consistent basis through throughout those 7 years, and then at the end of those, in that transition period. And I really do think that that's an important part of our state that we need to get back to, in order to heal our, really our world.

I'm going to ask you a bizarre question. Well, maybe you won't think it's bizarre. Have you read any of the books by Carlos Castaneda?

I haven't. Okay.

You seemed like a type that would have. Never mind then. I won't ask my follow-up question.

What's standing out there for you?

Well, I have a pressing question. And it's an itch in the back of my head that he called it, and I guess I could just go back and reread the books. I think that's where it was. That's the part, like, if I knew the answer was there, I'd go ahead and go read them. But I'm not 100% sure. But there was this term of doing things, essentially, as if they were important, or necessary, with also the understanding that they weren't important or necessary. And he had a word for that, or a phrase, and I can't remember what it was. And so that's what I was going to ask you. But—

Yeah, it has a— this word can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, like many words can, but it has a surrendering nature to it. Yes. And I do think that that is kind of a key to this journey, if you plan on creating anything, is finding that that fine line between intent and— it could come out as force, or it could come out as desire without attachment or clinging. In the entrepreneurial world, I hear people so often say, "Oh, it's my baby," and I get really concerned for those people.

Well, I've mentioned this on the show, a psychological study that where they put 25 male entrepreneurs in MRI machines, and showed them pictures of various things. And the parts of their brain that lit up when they showed them pictures about their business, were the same parts of the brain that lit up when they showed them pictures of their children. So in some real sense, there's this— there's a hardwiring there. But I think, to me, it's kind of like, it's part of your ego, and it's part of your self-identity, in the sense that, like, when you look at your kids, and you're proud of them, or if you look at your kids, and you're disappointed in them, you somehow see that as a reflection of you. Maybe not like, "Oh, I did that." But like, you know, there is some resonance there that that's my kid. And I think that's what it is. I think when they say, "It's my baby," they mean it. Like, I think they do mean it. But, you know, I don't think they understand the context. It's because I think there's a biological thing there.

Yeah, I can feel that. I mean, we know that in the process of creating anything, whether it be buying a home or painting or building a business, we know that the actual process of that journey releases dopamine. We know that whenever we've reached the achievement of that, or the end of that cycle, the dopamine stops, right? So yeah, we know it's a chemical reaction to the process of creating anything. The question is, are you raising a child or are you raising an adult? Right? And a self-sustaining adult who has been birthed into the world and given permission to shine and grow and learn about itself and expand has the potential for limitless capacity. A business, the same thing. Right. A child that has been controlled and not allowed to expand, we end up with adult children. Right. And we see a lot of that, unfortunately. And the same with business. And it doesn't matter. Like, we measure business so much based on gazillions of dollars it creates, and that's success. I measure it based on the holistic aspect.

Well, I agree. I mean, because you get into a room of entrepreneurs and it's, it's, it's the conversations are like, oh, we hit this sales level, or we've got this number of people, or we've got this market penetration, or No one asks questions like, well, yeah, but how many hours did you work? Or how much profit did you make? Or do you like what you do? Like, you know, how's your marriage?

Right?

Exactly. And I said this also, I think one of my colleagues that was my inspiration, one of my inspirations for starting the show, he just received his doctorate in psychology after his exit He went back and got his doctorate in psychology. And he and I were talking about how business— the phrase he used was entrepreneurs don't have very good coping mechanisms. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that. Although I'd never defined it in those clinical terms. But then I followed it up with, yeah, and I think that a lot of times their businesses are their coping mechanisms. Like, they become, intentionally or unintentionally, the way that they deal with all the shit that they don't want to deal with. And they create this universe where they're king, they're God, they, you know, and they can ignore the things they don't want to deal with.

Yeah, man, how often do we see that in leadership? Not just in business. I mean, look at our political landscape right now. It's children fighting over the playground. And it's such a fascinating thing. And we don't know how to handle disruption. No matter what side you're on, it's being disrupted right now. And it's amazing how desperately we all know it needs to change, but then the minute change starts occurring, we lose our minds and we cling and we control. And that happens in business too, right? We know we need to grow, but then I'm going to stifle all the growth and all of my people because it's not being done the way I needed to be done.

And yes, or the leader. I mean, like, I experienced this with myself is, you know, you can't, you can't completely turn control over because you're afraid. Right. Right. You know, and if you're afraid, you do want to control things. It's not a natural response when you're afraid to release. It's not.

Yeah, it reminds me of, you know, to get a little woo-woo with you. But maybe less if you have— not you specifically, but if this audience has looked into quantum science on any level, right? We're beginning to really understand some things that are fascinating, particularly the idea that how we really are energy and how there is a field of energy that is participating in this entire game and maybe even a field of consciousness, right? And within that, there's this book that has really impacted me deeply. It's called The Gene Keys, written by now a dear friend of mine, Richard Rudd. And it's in essence, what is the consciousness coding within our DNA? Okay, that part's not relevant. But if you want to go explore it, go explore. What is interesting is, is he points out in this one chapter particularly about building business, and he talks about how the thread of fear or the thread of excitement or any level of energy at its origin, that energy, however potent it may be, if it's fear particularly, that thread of fear is threaded through the entire company. So let's look at a nutrition nutritional product as an example. If I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to get this product out, if I'm afraid it's not going to be able to get manufactured, then I create all this force from a place of fear. So I finally get the manufacturing facility, and now I've got to control those manufacturers and make sure that they're getting it on time, make sure they're doing it right my way, blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden I become this manufacturing expert, and I'm telling them how to do their job, right? And now I'm pressuring them because of all this fear. That product then goes into the market. And now the people putting it on the shelves are fearful of putting it on the wrong shelf or not getting it distributed or sold well. Now the— and now the person picking up that product, regardless of how it was originally intended, if we understand that energy output perpetuates itself, We have built a world and business on fear. And then we wonder why the things we're consuming, the foods, the products, aren't working. And it's because there's a thread of this intensity and stuckness and fear within it all, versus if we weren't afraid of competition, if we weren't— if we were in this natural state of fluidity of that which wants to be birthed. And we looked at the energy of that. And we look at some of these companies that have come out that have really made it intentional in terms of how they want to build. It's fascinating to me when you look at it that way. What is it we're really consuming at the end of the day if everything really is energy? And we built a world based on fear. Gene Keys. So Gene as in G-E-N-E and then Keys. And it talks about the 64 codes of human consciousness. And it's a fascinating book.

Have you read The Holographic Universe?

I have not. I've heard about— that was actually brought up the other day.

That was— I want to say that was written in the '90s, so it's not new. My coach recommended I read it, and that'll bend your mind, dude. I don't know why that just— when you said woo-woo, I was like, Yeah, I mean, because that's the thing. I think as entrepreneurs, especially me, I tend to be more pragmatic and practical. And I think I, for a long time, dismissed the things that I didn't completely understand. And I kind of liken it to gravity. I don't have to believe in it. I don't have to understand it. I don't know. I need to understand why it works, you know, why it exists. It just is, right? And, and, but I don't— I would never jump off my roof because I know gravity is there. Yeah. Um, but I, I think in business, you know, and, and really in business, it— to me, it comes down to the, the personal part, like your interaction with others, be that business partners, employees, vendors, customers, like the things that we don't really understand, we just tend to ignore. And I guess you don't have to truly understand it, but you have to recognize that it exists. And, and it's not just a law, it's a good idea. I mean, it's not just a good idea. It's a law. That's a law. Screwed up the joke.

Sorry. There's a— you know, I've put a lot of thought in this, particularly in something that is so important in our business, which is sales, right? That transaction. You can't stay in business without that transaction. And as I would work with our sales teams and sit there and observe This might be one of the more practical ways to even see for an entrepreneur who's still selling the product, or if you're leading sales teams, or if you're just in sales. If you're sitting there in a conversation with a product or a service that you truly believe in, and that person's sitting there nodding their head the whole time, but then you get to the end of that sale, And they said no. 99% of the time, it has to do with the person who's sitting in front of that human being, who has a level of worthiness and inability to actually ask for the completion of that sale.

Mm-hmm.

And you can explore that energetically to know that that person is sitting there engaged when you're totally talking about something you believe in. They're in it, they're ready. And you can watch that reaction and that mirroring effect. But the minute you start getting that choked upness because you've got some sort of issue of getting a paycheck or you've got some sort of blockage around asking for that completion—

you don't want to be told no. You don't— you don't want to hit your ego.

Whatever that fear is, you can watch the change in them and they're confused, right? It's not even that they don't want the product or they don't want to complete the sale. All of a sudden, your energy changed. And they don't know what's going on. So all of a sudden, they start creating doubt in themselves because you've got doubt in yourself. And that exchange between two people, you can observe very well in the transaction. And it doesn't have to be sales. It could be any level of transaction. But you can see whatever your state is, is going to be reflected back to you. And it is one of those practical ways to take a woo-woo concept like gravity— well, gravity is not woo-woo, to your point.

If you think it is, that's okay. I'm going with it's there.

But that exchange is so real when you can move into the observer and see and pay attention to what's happening inside of you. And you can very quickly see that mirrored back to you in that reciprocity with someone else sitting over a cup of coffee when they were totally engaged and then they get disengaged. What happened within you? And usually it is you.

My adult children are all about that statement. I have two daughters and one son. And when they walk into the house, or we're gathering somewhere, they're like, "I just don't like the energy here." And I'm like, and at first, I was like, what are they talking about? But then, moving to that observer, I'm like, yeah, if I If I came in and were in their shoes, what would I see? Right. And, and like, would that be positive or negative energy? And I'm like, yeah, it's probably not positive. Okay, I get it. But I think it's, it's, I think, again, like I said, just because you don't, you don't understand it, you don't have to understand it, but you need to recognize that it exists. Because it does affect things. And, you know, if you're, if you're, if you've got the Sunday scaries, when, when it's time to go in on a Monday, or you can't shut your brain off at 10:00 at night or on the weekends, you know, you need to ask yourself some, some questions about your business, because that's not, that's not, that's not healthy. I don't want to say it's not normal because it's probably more normal than not. But like, you shouldn't be— you don't have to be in that space, right? You, you don't have to be in a place where you're miserable. Mm-hmm.

You, you can change that at any point in time. One of my Favorite quotes from— well, there's really two. One is maybe less applicable, but it's coming to me as well. The first is from Henry David Thoreau in Walden Pond, which is, "When one advances confidently in the direction of their dreams, they will meet with a success unexpected in common hours." And it is about this motion forward. No matter what's happening, that I think really creates this momentum. And if you can be in that motion and looking forward to that motion, you eradicate a lot of this stickiness that we're talking about. The second thing is from Dr. Wayne Dyer, I would think I was 19 years old when I first heard this. And after, you know, again, losing my father to suicide, I lost 6 other people within a period of 6 months and just felt like I was at funerals for a lot of my teenage years. I heard this saying from Dr. Wayne Dyer, and it was, "If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at will change." And that requires awareness. But it also requires a state change in your being, a willingness to create pause and reframe the way you're picturing the thing that's right in front of you right now. And and moving out of that reactiveness. And it is not an easy thing to do. But it is a thing that can be practiced through time, through awareness. And eventually, it just becomes a part of who you are. You start looking at things from multiple angles, and you can eradicate that reactiveness for the most part. It's not completely wiped out of us yet. No, no, it isn't. But it can be.

And I think back about this book I recently read, What Happy People Know by Dr. Ken Baker. And he was a psychologist. He was one of the founders of Canyon Ranch, the spa resort in Arizona. And it's a really great read, because he's got some great personal stories, but then patient stories. But, you know, essentially I'd sum it up as that, like, bad shit's going to happen. Like, you, you can't avoid that. But, but you do have the choice of how you react to it and whether you choose to let that defeat you, or whether you can learn from it. He calls himself an optimist, but he defines optimism of being in that— it's not some Pollyanna thing. It's when you have been at that, in his case, it was the death, premature death of his son. I think he was born early or something or had a congenital issue. But he lost his son as an infant. And, you know, going through that and what he learned about himself, like, at the— what he realized was, yes, his son was gone, but he could still feel that love for his son. Right? And that going through that pain, and learning that about himself, he then was able to say, as an optimist, that, you know, regardless of what happens, I've got this, like, I can deal with it.

Yeah, it's not expecting a good outcome. Mm-hmm. It's, it's exactly that. It's understanding that I am in complete control of my state of being and how I want to perceive this moment regardless of how dark it is. Yeah, I think that's powerful.

So what do you, what do you do now? Are you a coach? Are you a mentor, an advisor, an investor? What do you do as an entrepreneur now?

Unintentionally, a lot of those things. The primary thing is My partner in life is also— we've ideated these amazing companies and birthed them into the world. One is a media company. And then some major projects we're working on is some land trust entities. She's all about protecting land right now. And so she's created the Eden Nexus Project, which is buying up bunch of land and putting it in the land trusts, and using some of that land to make it sustainable. So we develop out portions of it for holistic centers. And, you know, some of the concepts are: Heal people, heal land; healed land heals people. And how are we making this fully sustainable, both financially and for those participating in it, as well as the planet? And the media company is really an advocate for good. So it's Bloom TV, and We're rebirthing that.

Not Bloomberg.

Not Bloomberg, no. She originally, because of her passion for Earth, started out with this network for all things flowers. And that came from— she was a baker that had these edible flowers put in her baked goods. And just one thing led to the next. And all of a sudden, you have this growing company that was incredible. And And it expanded as we then partnered with this amazing humanitarian fund and these individuals who have been in my friendship circle for quite some time. And they're working on sustainable city development. They're working on sustainable housing developments, all of these sustainable projects, including agriculture and all these other things. So I'm intertwined within that. Predominantly, I'm the people guy. And always have been, in terms of developing leadership, or now a lot more spirituality brought into that and some of these concepts that we've been talking about. How are we building differently, so that we can have a holistic approach and healthy society, healthy families, and healthy world? And then I also, just to challenge myself, I put myself out on the Insight Timer meditation app, And I go live there a couple of times a week in either leading meditations or leading some sort of discussion or contemplative space. And that has led to some coaching. I have my own resistance around that. I think we've got a lot of those in the world, and God bless them. I don't know that we need one more, but I've had a few people talk me into supporting them in their ventures and their business. And so I do that on occasion. And mostly, I'm with my daughter right now. I'm just loving—

How old did you say she was?

She's now a year and a half.

Oh, yeah, you got a lot of fun times. Mine just turned 31 yesterday, my oldest. Wow. Yeah.

That's amazing.

It is incredible. And, you know, I Through all of my mistakes and misstarts, I've always had the understanding that being my parents, being a husband to my wife, and father to my children was the most important thing that I would ever do. And thankfully, I did a decent enough job of it that, you know, as an adult, we still enjoy being around each other. I think Jordan Peterson used that as the litmus test is if you're a good parent, you'll know it if you have adult children you want to hang around. So, you know, I'm very thankful for that, that I got that at least partially right. So.

That's amazing. Well, congrats. And I look forward to Hopefully, you're going to be able to say the same. Yeah. Yeah.

Wait until she's 12 or 13. And, you know, it— the transition is just unbelievable from Daddy's little girl to what the hell has spawned into my house? Like, I don't— I don't get it. Yeah.

Yeah, I've heard. I had a glimpse. I know it's nowhere near the same, but I went to go coach coach soccer when I was 21. I played most of my life and decided I wanted to coach. And I was given a boys' team. But then the head of the soccer club said, "Oh, by the way, we know you have time. So we're going to give you my daughter's team as well." And it was 18, 12, and 13-year-olds. And I had them 3 times a week in the beginning. But I ended up staying with that same core 13 of those girls until they were 18 and 19 years old. And it was an extraordinary experience. And definitely, towards the end of the journey, we were together almost 6 days a week for at least 2 to 3 hours. So I might have been spending more time with them, in many cases, than their parents were. And it was such an honor. And wow.

One of the happiest days of my life was when my 12-year-old got selected for the travel squad for the Academy team. And then she came back the next day and said, "I don't think I want to do that." Oh, God.

Thank God.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a lot. That is a lot of work. Do you mind if I ask you a question? No, go ahead. So what do you feel, Christian, in all the interviews you've done and the intentionality that you have here, what do you feel like hasn't been said that might be most potent or powerful for your audience of entrepreneurs?

Well, nothing really rises to mind, because we have covered a wide range. And I feel like I've been open and honest in my questions and answers. I think the thing that I would probably re-emphasize that I've said multiple times is the importance of community in this journey. Because it's real easy, I think, both by— and I'm speaking mostly about men, Women don't have a tendency to have a problem with relationships, like they gravitate to that. I don't, a lot of the men that I know don't, and they tend to pull inwards when they're stressed and isolate themselves. And I find that that community of like-minded individuals, my tribe, if you will, has been very, very important. And I think no one should try to do this journey on their own. I think they have to have the humility to say, I need to know more. There's stuff I don't know. And I'm willing to raise my hand and ask the question and sound stupid.

So what do you feel like you need within that tribe? Because, you know, it feels more intentional than just a friend group.

Oh, yeah. No, no. I've been a member of Entrepreneurs Organization for 14 years. And that's my primary tribe, although I'm cultivating a tribe within my business of other business owners. And I think, I think it has to have some common values. I think there has to be trust and respect. I think there has to be a certain level of confidentiality to allow the space to say what needs to be said. And again, that I think that in EO we call it thirst for learning. I think it's more of like the beginner's mindset. Like, you know, even if you have a lot of experience, you understand that there's more to learn. Like when you get your black belt in a martial art, that's when you really start to learn. That's not— you didn't reach perfection. You just now have— you now have the ability to learn. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's a great point. I see so often, especially today, so many men— if I were to explain it in terms of a feeling, it feels trapped.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, and I could go off on that. You know, I don't know, we have time on that. I think there is an identity crisis that— and I don't want to go too far political, but To me, it's like men don't know what it means to be men. Right? And, you know, to me, that is from a spiritual context, from a Christian context. But even if you wanted to just look at it from a secular standpoint, like, you know, how biologically you're hardwired, right? And yeah, I think a lot of men are trapped because they don't, they don't know who they are. And they don't know what they're supposed to be. And society doesn't help that, like they're confusing it more. Yeah, I mean, trapped would be a good word.

We're missing. I always come from the space that if I looked at the world and the level of greatness that's out there, the level of incredible things we've accomplished, but more so now than maybe what I've seen in my years. This idea that we had it right before is kind of keeping us trapped from discovering a newness and maybe an even more aligned aspect. So, you could use that in any context, but since we're talking about men in particular, there are these fundamental biological needs that I would define as protect, provide, pursue. Right.

Well, nailed them.

And the provide part is the one I feel so many get hung up in. And you see it often where, you know, women are kicking butt right now in business and life, for the most part, going to college more than men are, everything else, right. And And when a man encounters a woman who is maybe earning more or really discovered her niche in the world, he has a tendency to not only internalize that, but shrink around that because he feels like the outcome of providing is only related to the dollar amount. Mm. And man, what a misconception that needs to change. The real ask is to create this pillar of stability, to be this pillar of strength. And you don't— that has nothing— I mean, you could be a billionaire and weak. We see some of that.

There are some of those.

And we see some incredibly passionate spiritual human beings who don't have a lot, but they are pillars not only for their family, but they're pillars in society, right? And what's the difference between those things and which one is providing more? I dare to say, the pillar who has a level of strength providing a level of safety and security for those around them, particularly their family, is projecting a lot more into our world and creating a lot more stability than the person who's got $50 million sitting in a bank.

Oh, yeah.

But has no idea what to do with it and running around like a hamster on a wheel.

Yes. And, you know, I have to say, as a matter of fact, we were just— we were talking about this in our home church last night as well, that there's a lot of things around Yeshua Messiah. And I use that term because people hear Jesus and they get They label it. And so I just do that to kind of short circuit their thought process. I am talking about Yeshua bar David, bar— good Lord, Joseph. He was the antithesis of what everybody thought was strength and power. Yep. Right. And And we, as modern Christians, still bump up against that because to emulate, to truly be a disciple of Christ and walk in the way is antithetical to the world still. It is not about power, money, influence. He owned nothing. He didn't have a permanent home. He didn't, you know, and, you know, people that the idea of pursuing that as a way of life is antithetical. Like, who wants to do that? That doesn't even make sense. And I don't necessarily mean that I have to walk that exact same path to be a follower of Christ. But I think the same intent has to be there. Like, I have to emulate him in spirit, not just say, I believe what he said. You know, I think that there's a lot of people that think that they are Christians that are not, because they've said the words, but they have not walked the walk. That's right. And I'm not passing judgment on them. I'm simply saying, like, one of the most powerful, and it still kind of scrapes at me, one of the most powerful statements Christ made was, when He was talking about the judgment. And He said, you know, He's separating the sheep from the goats. And He tells the ones on the goats, He says, "Away from you, away from me, I never knew you." Right? And that's an intimacy, right? Like, "I never knew you." And they answer, "But didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we heal the sick?" I never knew you. And, you know, that level of intimacy, I've not always had with him. And it's something that I realized that if I'm going to say that I am a disciple, I have to have that intimacy. I have to be able to say, Do I know his voice? Do I follow his voice? And do I reflect him to the world? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's so potent when you— there's a saying from the same guy that wrote The Gene Keys, Richard Rudd, he really emphasizes contemplation. The state of contemplation. We're in a knowing-obsessed world, an understanding-obsessed world, as you were pointing out earlier. You don't have to know gravity, you don't have to understand gravity, it just is. And on the flip side, there's the detachment, right? A lot of spirituality in general has this looking forward to the day I become something other than what I am. Right. Which is detaching you from the present moment. And so meditative states, I'm a big meditator, I do it all the time. But I do that to access something and bring it into embodiment here so I can be human. I love being obsessed with being human. And his point is contemplation sits between the need to know or the intellectual understanding and a meditative state. It's the state where you can kind of find this balance to be in contemplation without seeking any kind of answer out of it. To just sit and let there be a resonance with it. And having grown up Christian and having from the pulpit words projected onto me from their state of knowing always created a disconnect for me, because something got lost in that translation. Now, part of it was me, because I was never taught the art of contemplation. Just receiving it how I want to receive it regardless of who's delivering it. And on the flip side, it's infused with a lot of this other stuff that happens in dogma, right? And cool. So be it. However, as I have chose most recently to watch the— what's the show? Is it the— what's the show?

The Chosen?

The Chosen. Yeah. I just used the word and forgot the word. Wow. To just not only be able to visually see this, what an actor he is, too. Yeah, they did a great job. Oh my gosh.

Great storytellers.

And when you watch the Sermon on the Mount, as an example, I've heard that a gazillion times, having been raised in— but when you cannot attach to the words and feel what's being said, in this contemplative state, it unlocks something in you. And that changed me and my perspective around the Christ frequency, the messages of Yeshua, and the embodiment of God here. And I also, you know, I've explored the realm of Buddhism, I've explored Hinduism, I've explored all these other things. The story really hasn't changed. No matter where you're looking. The only significant difference is kind of where you started originally in this conversation. And the deepening of this conversation is what made Yeshua different? Buddha was a prince.

Right?

Kind of untouchable. And then he stepped into even a more untouchable state of being. He He brought many, many potent teachings to the world, but it was almost unrelatable.

Right.

I didn't understand what Son of God or Son of Man meant until I started watching Chosen. And most people interpret that as Son of God. But what they're really saying, I feel, and I'm not totally 100% on this, but I'm assuming The reason he was called Son of Man, and the reason it was so distinctly different, is because of what you were referencing, which was he is here walking not only as man, but willing to go into the trenches of man, to be 100% human with God embodied.

There was a beautiful song I heard just yesterday. I'd never heard of it. And I don't know if it's new or not. But the line, the title of the song is Worthy is the Lamb. But the phrase that just moved me to tears. I listened to it 3 times yesterday, and it moved me to tears all 3 times. And it's— I'm going to get it. I'm not going to get it completely right. But it's essentially laying down His crown, washing my feet, and knowing my shame. And that intimacy is what you're referencing. Like that, like, yeah.

It's real. It's palatable. I can taste it now. And in my disconnect, in my rebellion from all of it. I pushed it away and I didn't quite get it. But to be fair, I've explored so much, right? I've done almost 40 ayahuasca plant medicine journeys, hundreds of psilocybin journeys. I have been to places I can't— I do not understand. And I've embodied this planet really, really deeply. And this experience, and it's created this resonance in me that actually has brought me closer to something that I grew up with. I was like, it was right there the whole time. It's amazing. And, and thank God for all of it. I look at this practically, right? Let's, let's, let's assume not everybody listening here is religious or spiritual or, or, or Christian, or maybe they've been like me for years and pushing most of that away. Entrepreneurship isn't significantly different. Tell me more. Think of all the intangible things you cannot see that you just know are there, that have to take place. It is delusional for somebody to want my product or service. Yeah. It's completely delusional. And we started there, right, in this conversation. The idea that I'm going to create something that somebody else wants, should be so improbable, statistically, let alone creating any level of success on it. Because why would anybody give a you-know-what about me or the thing I'm creating? But somehow, some way, I have enough belief that they will, to then get me to spend endless hours creating this thing out of nothing. Correct. To then not know who's going to buy it, and bring myself out into the world, knowing somebody will, enough times to get to that person who does.

Yes.

That requires a level of faith that—

Yes, it does.

It doesn't feel too much different than believing in something that we can't see, feel, or hear until you get there.

Yes. And that's kind of what I would agree that everybody has faith in something.

Yeah.

I mean, you have to. Yeah. No one operates in this world without faith. Yeah.

You wouldn't walk out the front door. You wouldn't get out of bed. No. Yeah. And so much of it is subconscious, right? Because if we thought about the actual odds of trusting— I was walking with my partner, Monica, the other day, and we're walking across the street. I'm pushing my baby across a busy street from the park to our home, and I'm sitting there going, "Wow, do we have a level of trust that a light going from one color to the next tells all of those people in these one-ton vehicles that—" and I'm willing to trust that they're going to. That is mind-bending when we really think about that.

It's 100% correct. Yes.

Yeah.

Well, Devin, I feel like we could go on for another hour, but we can't. Maybe I'll have to have you back on the show. How do people get in touch with you, if they want to learn more?

They can go to devonkerns.com. So D-E-V-O-N-K, and then K-E-R-N-S.com. You can just send me a message on there or click the little thingy and it'll give you access to me. I'm readily available, not really out to promote or push anything, but just want to be of service. So if it feels like I can serve in any way, investments or introductions or anything regarding your business or just hold space. I'm more than willing to do that.

I love that. Thank you for that. Listeners, if you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast with another entrepreneur, subscribe to the podcast. And till next time, remember, you are not alone.