Finding Your Purpose: Agi Keramidas

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another edition of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Aghi Keramidis. I probably mispronounced that again. Keramidis. Help me out, Aghi.

Keramidis, yes.

Keramidis. I apologize. So welcome to the show.

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

So why don't you start by telling the audience, like, who you are, what you do, kind of a brief CV.

Okay. So I am Greek originally. That explains the, you know, the difficulty in pronouncing my name. I lived in Greece. I was born and lived in Greece until I was 35, around 35 years old, where I decided to move to the UK, where I'm still at. Over 15 years afterwards. My, originally my background, my professional background, I mean, is dentistry. So I trained as a dentist. I practiced dentistry back in my home country for about 10 years, and then I moved to the UK. I carried on practicing dentistry. At some point in my When I entered my 40s, I went through a, let's say, I won't call it a crisis, but let's say a transformation or some changes in my life as it happens to many people, if not all. And that started steering me away from dentistry, which I realized at that time that it was never a real passion of mine. It was something that was to a large extent imposed on me by my parents, my mother in particular, who was a dentist. So I, you know, followed that particular profession because of her. So in my 40s, I realized that this is not what I'm passionate about. And certainly this is not what I would like to keep on doing for the rest of my career, shall we say. So at that time, I discovered personal development and I started, you know, reading books, going to seminars, I went to Tony Robbins, one thing after the other. And then I started the podcast about personal development. And gradually I steered away from dentistry and into the world of podcasting and personal development, coaching, mentoring. And now I have fully transitioned. It took a, it took a while for my transition, but I have transition to something that is really fulfilling and, you know, something that I enjoy doing, which was never the case with, you know, having to go to the dental practice every morning. That's a brief overview.

Well, thank you for sharing that. I've had many dentists in my life, some very, very kind people. I've never met someone that was truly passionate about dentistry. But I mean, I'm sure they exist.

I have, I have, and I respect them and I admire them. And I would love, I would have loved to be one of them, but I wasn't. Yeah.

Well, I found something I want to tug on. We talked in the green room about how the show would go and I listen and then I find something interesting and I tug. And this idea of starting a career path based upon others' expectations. I had a dear friend, he has since passed, that his family, his siblings were all doctors, and his dad was a doctor. And, you know, there was this high expectation of going into the profession. And, you know, David, God love him, he just wasn't smart enough to get into medical school. So he decided the next best thing would be to be a lawyer. And so he was a lawyer. And for that reason, you know, I mean, he talked about like how he was still kind of looked down on by his family, like he was a professional, but he wasn't a doctor and kind of carried that burden around for a while. No, a long while. And I remember having lunch with him you know, a long time ago. And he was just describing this like, I just hate law. I hate what I do. And I'm like, well, why don't you do something else? And he goes, you know, I don't know. He said, I, I really think I would like to be a teacher. And I'm like, interesting. Well, It took several years for him to gain the courage. But he decided to become a teacher, leave the profession of law. And he only lived about 5 years after that transition to a middle school civics and history teacher. And those 5 years of his life were It's just like the butterfly came out of the cocoon. He finally found his passion. He helped— he coached their baseball team there at the middle school. And he eventually succumbed to cancer. And at his funeral, to this date, it's the largest funeral that I've ever personally attended because of all the students, his past students and current students that came because he had such an impact on them. And, you know, his widow and I are still friends and we talk and I talk a lot about like, should he have made— could he have made that decision earlier? But it sounds like you had a similar expectation set to you by, by your parents, by your mother. You've done the personal development. What are your reflections on that?

It's a big, big topic here. Whether— let me start with this— whether one could have taken a decision earlier than when they take it. Maybe, but that's purely theoretical because we never do things before we actually do them. We might contemplate on it. I mean, if I personally, if if I would go back and do things again, I would really have loved to take that decision earlier on. But I know it doesn't work like that. I mean, I had to go through these particular experiences in my life, in my career, in the challenges that I have had, and grow as a person or have the specific experiences that allowed me to take the decision exactly when it was the right, I will say, quote unquote, the right time for me to, to take it. So that's, you know, on, in a nutshell, that's a reflection on me. But the other thing that comes to my mind is on reflection again, we only live one life, at least in this particular body. Maybe we live different lives, but not— I will never live my life as Agi Keramidas again. That's for sure. So we have a finite amount of time to do some things. And the moment we realize that, that the clock is ticking and living our life according to someone else's expectation, expectations. The sooner we realize that, the better it is for us to at least take some control. That it is, at the very end, it is our life. We're not here to fulfill someone else's expectations, no one else's. It is for us to experience some particular elements, some growth, some, you know, everything that life has to offer, the good things and the bad things as well.

Did your, did your mother, uh, push back on your decision, or, or did she have an opinion, uh, about your decision?

She certainly had an opinion. She didn't push back very much initially. She did a bit. But, you know, I was— when your son is in their 40s, you have little power of influence over them. And also, because I live in England and she lives in Greece, there was also the lack of physical proximity, so we wouldn't see each other so often. So there was little that she could do. And, you know, soon it didn't take her long to realize that This is what Aggie wants to do. So I was blessed that she supported me and still does.

So, so two follow-up questions. Do you think that you needed to be physically away from her to make that decision?

And— No.

Okay. All right. Good. All right. The second question is, do you think you may have misinterpreted her expectations? I mean, as far as, you know, now having made this transition and had conversations with her and she's obviously okay with it, did you think maybe you misunderstood what her expectation was?

Her expectations? At what point do you mean? At the point of the transition or when I was about to go to uni?

When you made that transition. I guess what I'm getting at is, is that like, there's a lot of stories we tell ourselves, right? And we make rationalizations for our behavior. And I can see where people have these expectations that really are set by others. But it's not necessarily true. Like, we haven't confronted that person to say, is this really what you expect of me?

I understand the question. I think, uh, before I would even consider whether her expectations of me at that time were indeed the ones that I thought they were, the, the layer behind that was my own clarity or lack of clarity of whether that was indeed the right thing for me or not. So, I mean, up to a point when I started getting out of dentistry and going a little bit into part-time, going from 5 days to 4 days and so on. Until that point, I thought that it's okay, it's a good job. Respect, I am respected, I earn good money, I have people that, you know, I help with their oral health or their confidence or whatever else that I have helped them with. Fair enough, I might not, you know, enjoy it very much, but well, most people are like that. That's what I knew, that was my mindset was at that time. So Because of that, it was probably irrelevant what her expectations were. I mean, her expectations came into play when I realized that, no, this is not what I want to do anymore. And then I started thinking, what's, you know, the, the pushback I might, uh, encounter if I do that. I hope that makes sense.

No, it does. I mean, so what you're saying is you needed to get clarity for yourself. And only when you had that clarity did you start questioning, like, okay, why am I doing what I'm doing? Like, yeah, okay.

Yeah.

What, you know, making that transition, what were some of the struggles that potentially were like, no, I shouldn't do this. I should stick with dentistry. Did you ever encounter that situation where like, I'm not sure this is going to work out?

All the time. I think what I have come to realize is that this, I would call it self-doubt. What you just described, I will put it into the term self-doubt. I think that is something that happens to everyone. It happens to all of us. There is that voice that questions whether the path that we choose is indeed the right path, or we can make it, or if we're good enough on that. So I think that's where it begins with the self-doubt element. So yeah, maybe we can, maybe we can go toward that direction.

Sure.

Let's, let's unpack that.

I think you're right that self-doubt is something that sticks with you. I know, you know, I find it surprising, having had some amount of success as an entrepreneur, how the the ground shifts still happen in that it's like, okay, have I done all I could do? Or could I do more? Could I be better? Even having achieved success? In other words, it always feels like they're moving the goalposts, to use an American analogy, you know, that it's okay, well, you can make it from this distance, but now we're going to move, move it, you know, 10 yards back. Is that a similar experience for you?

I think to some extent moving the goalposts, as you said, is something that especially people that are entrepreneurs or high achievers or they, they appreciate personal growth in some way or another. It is something to some extent inevitable because we tend to set a goal. I like very much the analogy of, you know, a mountain. You climb a mountain, you put all your effort, you eventually reach the top of the mountain. You enjoy that for a few minutes or a few days, perhaps. And then— you look at the next mountain, which is higher. So it does tend to go on and on and perpetuate in that sense. And I believe that is something that many experience. I can't say this is right or this is wrong. I think in a way it is natural. Because we can't— especially, you know, people that want to grow and appreciate growth— reaching the top of the mountain or a certain level of success in their business or whatever it is, is satisfying once you do it. And then we start thinking, so now what? It's, it's natural to want to evolve, if I can put it like that. Of course, there is also— there are also traps in this, because if you continue continuously keep on moving the goalposts, the one risk or one danger that that involves is that you are never satisfied with what you have achieved. You keep on going more and more, and there's never an end to this.

No, no. I mean, you know, I, I think I think entrepreneurs tend to use, uh, money as a scorecard oftentimes when comparing to, you know, their peers. And you can always find someone that's made more money, um, I guess unless you're Elon Musk.

Um, I think there is someone—

there might still be, right? Like, I mean, it, it— but, but the, the, the, the point being that there, if that's your measure of satisfaction, you're doomed to failure. I think also listening to you and reflecting, I think one of the things that I did a poor job of was enjoying the journey. You know, to your point, like this striving towards whatever, I mean, it doesn't have to be so, so like, you know, it could be that you had a transformation and you're pursuing something that resonates more with you, like in your case, right, there's still the striving element, right? And goal orientation and outcome orientation, but not enjoying the ride, not enjoying the process, because that's where you spend the vast majority of your life, not, not on top of the mountain. Right? Or at the bottom of the mountain. You spend most of your time in the climbing.

Definitely. And that's something that it has taken me a while to realize that for myself, that it is all, it is, everything is about the journey. It's not the destination. The destination at best would last a short amount of time before it is replaced by another destination. Mm-hmm. So the amount of time that has taken you to reach that destination, let's say it's 2 years or 3 years, that is exactly the journey and the day-to-day, the appreciation of what we're doing, our progress, our, you know, our mistakes, our failures, our learnings, everything is all part of it, and that is certainly, in my opinion, what matters most. Of course, keeping the destination as a, you know, as a beacon to go towards too. But as you said, that will only last very little time in terms of, you know, satisfaction.

Yes, I went to a friend's, longtime friend's father's funeral yesterday. And, you know, it's, you know, Solomon said in Proverbs, better to be in the house of mourning than in a house of celebration. And, you know, I thought, you know, that truly is a very wise proverb, because when you go to a funeral, it forces you— well, I guess you don't have to, but you have the opportunity to reflect, right? And the pastor said a statement that I thought was profound. He said, you live your funeral, like, you know, how your funeral, how people are going to sit there when you're gone and reflect on what you've done and what kind of person you are. You can't cover up what you've done. Like, the preacher can't sit there and, you know, put a good face on a bad life, right? Like, they— and I left that funeral thinking to myself, you know, I want to be more like Jim, you know, his dad, because his life was simple and impactful and faithful. And at the end of the day, when people are at my funeral, that's what I want them to say about me. I don't want them to talk about what he achieved or didn't achieve, because that's irrelevant. It's like, how did you impact people? Like that, that to me is, is the barometer of a life well lived. Did you do the good works and, and, you know, take care of others?

I agree. Certainly the impact that you have made to other people is very— much more important than anything that you might have achieved or money that you made or anything like that. And I also, you know, when you said about the opportunity for reflection at the funeral, I do believe it is a— I will I used to do it actually. Now that we're bringing it— you brought it up, I realized that it's been a little while since I've done it. I used to do once a year, take half a day off and go somewhere on my own with only my journal and nothing else, and pretend that it's the last day of my life, that I just had, you know, the news of a diagnosis that, you know, you have a 5 hours to live. That's it. And that forces, if you allow the process, because it is not an easy process to really think about your own death. And most people, or many people anyway, don't really think about it. It's a passing thought which usually they try to avoid. The thought.

Sure, absolutely.

If you avoid the thoughts, like you are going to avoid death, which is not the case. So the more you think about it, I think it is better, because death gives you more reason to find meaning in what you do with your life before that inevitability that will happen. And obviously, at one's funeral And that's also part of the exercise that I was doing, is how people will remember you, us. And whether you were saying earlier about, um, the, the students, that it was so, so, yes, so many because of the impact that their teacher had on them. And I think that is really the point of, you know, having lived their life according to one's desire, according to one's fulfillment. Because you— I think that personal fulfillment and making a difference in other people's lives are perhaps not the same thing, but they go in a parallel direction.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people think about their life too superficially. Right. And, you know, to the extent that they do think about how they impact people, they may think about it vocationally, like, well, I'm a dentist, and I helped people live healthier lives because I took care of their mouth. And that's true. I mean, but we all that are working are doing that in some way, right? Like, everybody contributes to the well-being of someone else just by existing and working, right? Hopefully. Yeah. I mean, yes. I mean, unless you're like a trained assassin or something, then maybe not. But I think that process you mentioned is profound. Because, you know, an alternative would be, you know, write your own obituary. Can— what does that look like? And it's not to dwell on it. But to your point, it focuses what you're doing now, right? I read about some monastery, I don't know if it was historical or current, where the monks actually built their own coffins. And it was an exercise in exactly what you're talking about, like, what is your life going to be about? And when you're younger, when you have a family and kids, it's easier to not really think about those things because you're busy. I totally understand that. And you were in your 40s, and I was, you know, in my late 40s, early 50s when I started this journey. And, you know, there has to be space and kind of to your, you know, referencing back to what you said, you said, could you have done it earlier? Maybe. But it's time when it's time. Right. And as the old Chinese proverb says, you know, the teacher will appear when the student is ready. And so you can't learn something until you're ready to learn it.

Definitely. And I certainly think that thinking, well, I could have done something else or I could have done this earlier. Is purely theoretical, and it is something that it can cause regret. Hopefully, when one has realizes that, oh, I could have done that earlier, it gives them and brings them regret. It also, hopefully, it— that regret can be transmuted into some motivation to do something about it so that there isn't regret. Whereas when you reach the end of your life, any regrets you have, there is nothing you can do about it anymore. True. It's too late.

True. So I want to pivot here for a minute and tell me what it is. Do you work primarily with entrepreneurs or dentists or who do you primarily work with?

Not necessarily dentists. Yes, it is professionals. I will just put it like that, that have achieved a certain level of external success, the stability, the career, the family, you know, the house, the car, whatever else. Success. I like to call it external success. But despite all that, you know, having ticked all the boxes of what success should look like, there is something missing. And that something is internal. It is some kind of— perhaps it is dissatisfaction or restlessness, internal, or a void, or you know, there are different feelings or things that you can express this as. So this is the main focus, to allow someone to realize that there is a different path that one could take if they decide to, that is more, let's say, aligned to who they are internally, to their values, to their inner desires, and then get clarity on the path there. And clarity and courage also. I think also courage is something very important because changing path in life, it's not always easy. You use more often— No. Not it is hard.

Yes. And I would say my my own personal journey, that, that, that change that occurred, you know, 7 or 8 years ago, uh, that started 7 or 8 years ago, uh, was much more difficult than anything else I'd done, uh, including like starting the business and raising a family. And I, I will tell you, I think one of the reasons why it's hard is because, you know, a lot of times you have people in your life that have an expectation of you, right? That they're expecting you to behave a certain way. And when you start to make those changes, it disrupts their life. And that doesn't mean that you're doing it to hurt them. But like, you know, they're— they— no one thrives on, on chaos, right? I mean, there's a book by that name that, that's, you know, Thriving on Chaos, which I, I'm just saying your natural inclination is when the ground starts shifting around you, people start acting differently. It's unsettling, right? Like, and, and so even if that behavior was bad, right? Like, even if you're happy with the changes that they make, it's still, it's still awkward because it's not predictable, and, and people like predictable.

There is a big element of uncertainty there. Yes, it is not predictable. And, uh, the other people, I suppose it depends on how they perceive change themselves. So for me and for you, who we appreciate personal development and growth and change. If I saw someone, a friend of mine or, you know, a family member going into another direction because that's what he or she wants to do and that's what's been called, I would personally look at it much more favorably. I would actually encourage them towards that. But we know very well that this is— not everyone is like that.

Probably most people aren't like that.

Yeah, no, I agree. So there is a great resistance to change, and if they see others changing, that, as you said, it shakes some kind of foundation because there is uncertainty. There is, and there's also the, the fear, I will say, that if you change and you evolve and go something else, what about me? That means that I could— I would probably need to do that as well, but, but I don't want to because I have a fixed mindset and I like things to be predictable and how they are. And that can create friction. It can also create, you know, a break in relationship. Absolutely. It is part of the process, I suppose.

Yes. How many people come to you to work with you and end up making a large change, like a career change or a family change or a life change?

The majority. The majority. I think that is the the changes that, you know, and the big changes. If it is a small change, then the value of coaching into that, yes, there's still value in that, but it is not the same. Let's say I want to make a change. What can I put? Like, I want to stop drinking alcohol, for example. That is a change. For that is much, much, um, smaller change for one to make, even though it can have massive results, outcomes by doing it. But as a change, it's very small than, you know, stopping your job that you were doing and doing something else, or, you know, moving to another country or splitting up with your spouse or whatever other change you feel compelled to do. So Yeah, it's the big changes, I think, that are most useful to have someone. I will use the word guide. It's not necessarily a matter of, you know, guide means there you go, not necessarily like that, but having some companion along the way that can show you your blind spots, give you some external perspective of what you were doing, because we are very bad at being honest, or I will leave the honest, I will correct the word, we're very bad at being objective with ourselves. So having someone, a third party, show us or hold a mirror in front of us, say, this is what you do, this is what you just said right now, I think it's very helpful, very beneficial. It allows us to see who we are, really.

Do you still use a coach yourself?

Yes.

Yes. And I think that that is a key barometer in engaging a coach is do they themselves still obtain coaching? Because it sets the expectation that it's like You use the word guide, like the guide is the Sherpa up the mountain. Look, I've been doing this all my life. I know how to do it. I can show you how to do it. As opposed to a coach understands that let me back up a second. When I say coach, I'm not talking about someone that is going to teach you a skill, right? That, that, that is a type of coaching. And, and, and being a guide in those situations is, is absolutely a form of coaching. When I speak of coaching, I'm talking about the, the infinite possible. Right? Like, there— this is not like, I've been there, I'm going to show you the way, necessarily. It is, I'm on this journey with you. I, I think as, as a coach— and that's why I think if your coach doesn't have a coach, then they're probably not going to, uh, have that same paradigm with you. It's going to be more of a guide kind of thing. Yeah. Would you agree with that?

I agree. Of course it is. You know, it came to me when you were saying that. It came to my mind like if you go to a dentist that his teeth are rotten. It is similar. The person that you trust to help you with something has to have the same kind of way of looking at things, at what they're teaching. So I think a coach that does not have a coach, it's, it's kind of, for me, it raises some red flags. I mean, I want to coach you, but I don't want to be coached. Yeah, no, I agree. Some red flags there.

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, there, there, it seems like you know, the last decade there has been this explosion of coaches out there and, and the term has become very confused in the marketplace. To me, the definition of a coach that what, what, what I'm looking for out of a coach is someone that will help me gain clarity, clarity, about, about myself. Not like you mentioned blind spots. That's absolutely part of it. But it's also getting it out of my own head and being able to unpack it. And it's fascinating to me, like I'm reflecting back on my call with my coach last week, and he, he had nothing to do with the gem of insight that I came to. I came to this perfect analogy that, and how I was showing up as a leader. And it was all my own experience, right? This, this whole analogy that I— but, but what he did was he gave the space and asked the questions that brought me to that. And so the second thing that I think a coach does is it helps draw out what's already in you. It's not about putting something into you so much as it is drawing out what's already there.

I agree. And the word that comes to my mind when you say that is the word insight. So you can't give me any insights. I can't give you any insights. The insight, the word says it comes from in. From inside. But the coach can facilitate, or as you said, hold the space with the appropriate questions to allow one to have that insight. And, you know, we— I think we all know it when you have— it's like a light bulb, something that's just, oh my God, I got it now.

Yes.

That can't come from an external person. It can only come from within. It's the insight, the inner wisdom that gets revealed.

Yes. Yes. Because if someone tells you, okay, Yogi, this is what I see, this is about your behavior, and this is what you should do about it. Well, that's advice. And you may or may not even listen to it, probably won't act on it because at the end of the day, high achievers and entrepreneurs are independent, right? And so we don't like necessarily people coming in and telling us what to do. And oftentimes, like me, I actively resist it. Like, don't tell me what to do. I'll do what I want to do. Damn it. And so that dynamic doesn't work, right? And that to me is more of like what a lot of coaches do is like, I'm going to teach you how to do this thing. I'm going to show you about your behavior and this is how you need to modify it. That doesn't stick with most entrepreneurs.

No, it doesn't stick. And I think the— a word that comes to mind that sometimes, often the two words get confused, but they're not the same, is the word mentor. So mentor, and I do also mentor, but I can only mentor someone and tell them what to do if I have done exactly the same thing. I have really walked on those steps and I can tell them with certainty that, you know what, this is what you do. For example, I have a podcast Personal Development Mastery, which has close to 550 episodes. I can mentor someone if you wanted to start a podcast. I can tell you, you need to do this, this, and that. But that is different. It is, it is not, that is not coaching in that sense. And I know that often people confuse those things and it's I think it's worse when the coaches themselves confuse those things. And as you were saying, rather than creating the space to elicit the insight from the client, to stuff them with knowledge or actions or information, which it may be perfectly all right, but perhaps that's not what the other person needs.

Yeah. I mean, I was having this conversation with my coach last week. I mean, like, if you think about professional athletes and they have coaches, they all have coaches, most of them not just team coaches, but individual coaches. Right. And it's this, this false idea that the coach has to have something that they can give the, the, the player, um, or, you know, in our case, the entrepreneur. No, that coach is not there to teach Tiger Woods how to swing the golf club. That's, that's not his job, right? Um, but I think a lot of, a lot of entrepreneurs have that expectation that like, oh, you're going to teach me how to do X, Y, and Z because, you know, And sure, those people are out there. And some of that is beneficial. But the real benefit is to be able to draw out your natural talent and keep you from shooting yourself in the foot, for instance, you know, like, helping you see those blind spots to say, you know, it's, it's not your swing, that's the problem.

Right.

Your head is the problem. And for coaches like this, this idea that like, well, I have to have done X, Y, and Z in order to be a coach to others. No, that's not necessarily true. It's not.

Generally, yeah, I do believe there is some element of having you know, have needing to have some kind of experience, personal experience of what you are coaching. I mean, yes, you mentioned Tiger Woods and his coach. Yes, his coach is not most likely not a better golf player than him. No, but definitely they know golf and they know how to play golf. If, if, yes, I have never played golf in my life, so No matter how good a coach I am, it would be, let's say, it would not be very efficient. Certainly would not be powerful coaching, trying to coach someone on their golf skill.

Skills. Yes. No, the skill component. Yes. But I think you could definitely address the mindset. Right. And I agree, you have to have experience. Um, but I, I don't, I don't think it has to be this, like, I, I want to achieve X, therefore I need to go find someone that has done that, right, to, to be, uh, the coach. That's more of a mentor relationship, which you're talking about. Like, you know, I want to become the next Elon Musk, so I'm going to go see if he'll mentor me, right? Auggie, how do people find out more about working with you and what you do?

My invitation to your listener would be to check out my podcast, Personal Development Mastery, where I do discuss all those things. And I, you know, offer the options of where one can find me and connect with me and, you know, work together if they choose to. So my podcast is Personal Development Mastery, and you can listen to it, uh, wherever you listen. After, after this conversation ends, check it, uh, type it up and find it.

Yes. Well, listeners will have that link in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember, you are not alone.