From Odd Jobs to Creative Entrepreneur | Josh Marshall

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Sammamish, Washington. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. It could be Samar-nish, I guess, but I'm going with Sammamish. That sounds more native. Uh, joining me today, Josh Marshall, Josh, welcome to the show.

Hi.

So why don't you tell our listeners who Josh Marshall is and why he's here?

Uh, well, you invited me. Yes.

That's a good answer.

I, um, I'm from Lincoln, Nebraska. I, um, uh, I guess early life and stuff, I've always been kind of obsessed with fantasy and fiction and Uh, you know, Star Wars was big for me growing up, and so I've always kind of been creative and daydreamy and stuff. Um, I, you know, the past couple years though, I've been studying, you know, like business and copywriting and stuff like that, and realizing that, um, you know, I, I guess I like that stuff a lot better than any of the, the day jobs that I've had. And so, um I am, I'm still figuring things out, but I have got, um, kind of a pretty good vision. I love Dungeons and Dragons. Um, I've been doing that for almost 7 years. Um, so I'm pretty, I would say pretty accomplished in that regard as well. Um, improv and writing and, um, different things like that.

Perfect. So what are some of those, uh, previous gigs that you've had for employment?

Oh God, how much time do we have? Um, I think my first ever job was detasseling. Um, so here in Nebraska, that's, um, almost a rite of passage for a lot of kids, is, um, getting up super early, going out into cornfields. Um, yes, it's kind of a stereotype— typical job, but there's a lot of corn in Nebraska.

Yeah, I've seen it.

And basically, I mean, to my understanding, I hated every second of it, but to my understanding, you're basically like yanking out the genitals of the corn so they don't like cross-pollinate and stuff. But, um, so I did that. I did, um, I was a janitor at my high school. I've— I was a lifeguard and a swim instructor for probably 5 summers. Um, I worked at McDonald's. I worked at Gallup for 5 months. I worked at Old Chicago for 1 month maybe. I worked at Panera doing the night shift for 2 shifts. Juice stop for a few months, mixing smoothies.

So nothing related to your creative endeavors? No. No. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah, you said detasseling and immediately I thought of like castrating bulls. I don't know why. And then you said you're ripping the gonads out of corn and that's okay. Yeah. All right. Makes perfect sense.

Pretty close.

Yeah, well, yes. Uh, so Josh, what, what do you do, uh, now for work?

Um, right now I'm an assistant property manager for kind of a, I, I guess, a corporate, um, uh, apartment complexes. They've got stuff in Nebraska, Omaha, Iowa, and Minnesota. Um, but I just work at one of the properties, and I've been there for I'm about to enter my 4th year. I did 2 years of leasing and now I've been in the assistant manager role. So that's what I do right now.

Okay. And so then you do your creative stuff on the side. Yep. And what does that look like?

Um, that looks, that's looked like a lot of different things.

Um, well, let's stick with the ones that you actually charge for.

Yeah. So I. I have tried different things. You know, I was doing like Dungeons and Dragons content for quite a while because I really fell in love with like Critical Role and other, other studios that were like doing this big production sort of thing and they had built their following, they had a dedicated audience and then, you know, I thought maybe that was the route I was going to go and then I was like, okay, I'm really the only one who cares about that avenue. My friends just wanna have fun. This is so much work for so little output. And so I've shifted gears so many times. And I would, so right now where I'm at is, right now I'm building basically my proof of concept for an email opt-in for businesses. And I think some of the ones that I will probably talk to after I finish it are some in the TTRPG space, so like tabletop role-playing games. And, um, so that's what I work on now on my off time. Um, I've also written like the rough draft of a novel and, you know, stuff like that. But I would like to get to where, you know, I've got 8 hours, 9 hours of my day eaten up every day doing stuff that I really don't care about, whereas, um, you know I'd like to transition to doing stuff that I really understand and excel at. And that really brings a lot of value to people that are good at other things in their own right, but don't necessarily grasp this other stuff. So I guess that's, that's where I'm at right now.

Okay. So when, when you look at, I, we talk about that on the show about being an entrepreneur first. and, and whatever your skill is, be that copywriting or videography or, you know, writing novels, whatever it is, um, is secondary because an entrepreneur looks for problems to solve. Um, do you— I mean, you, you— it sounds like you saw a potential problem in the writing of content for Dungeons Dragons, but then realized that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze, so to speak. What other problems do you see that you feel like you could potentially solve? I mean, you kind of mentioned this opt-in tool. So like, what was the problem you saw?

Okay. So it's not my genius invention by any means. It's actually, um, kind of based off of what, uh, Nicholas Cole and Dickie Bush offer in their PGA, like, premium ghostwriting academy, um, which I would like to enroll in at some point, um, but I know there's, you know, kind of a higher upfront cost. And so I'm building my own proof of concept. And what, what this means is the, the problem that this is solving is most websites, when you land on them Ideally, you know, when they're wanting you to join their newsletter, get updates and things like that, they misunderstand what it takes to get somebody to, to opt in. Um, and so their opt-in rates are very low because usually the offer that they're making in exchange for that email address is, you know, 10% off, or it's some sort of thing that to me, psychologically speaking, says I will— like, you still have to buy something from me, but I'll give you it at a lower rate. And also now you're on my email list. And I—

it feels like, uh, which nobody likes.

No, generally speaking, no. Like, you've already got to— I feel like you already really have to like the brand a lot in order to say yes to that easily. So the solution to that is offering— they refer to it as an educational email course. And essentially what this is, is doing is offering free education of, uh, like a 5-day crash course. And part of what I would be doing is— it's kind of the copywriting side that comes into it, which is, uh, packaging and positioning it in a way that is valuable to the ideal person who lands on your page. So, um, the way, um, let's— like, uh, I'm trying to think. So, so the proof of concept I'm working on for myself to show other people is Um, you know, outsell your competition with words. And it is positioned so that somebody who maybe is a solopreneur who is not necessarily confident in their writing skills, um, can understand some of the key elements that most businesses get wrong on their, uh, websites, social posts, all that different kind of stuff. And to, you know, kind of to nail down those core things. So over the course of 5 days, Um, I kind of break down some faulty beliefs. I, um, show them how to change the way they say things in such a way that it, it brings value to the customer. I had dedicated a day to like writing, um, in a, um, pleasant tone and different things like that. So that would be kind of the, the, the goal for other businesses then is what, what free ideally like proprietary knowledge and stuff can we share to educate them and then obviously kind of usher them in the buying process as they become an email subscriber.

So you mentioned that the target customer would be tabletop role-playing games, people in that industry.

But yeah, that could be one of them.

So give me an example of one of those companies that you would approach.

With this? Okay, so I mean, there's quite a few. And like, pick one. One would be like Beatles and Grimm. I see them posting on Instagram all the time. I haven't looked at their website for a while, but my guess would be they probably don't have a very strong opt-in offer. There's another— his name is Johnny Stanton, and he's a pretty well-known— he was a football player, but is also in the TTRPG world. And I And I think maybe now he just started a position as like the CMO for some TTRPG company. So I'm definitely going to hit him up because their website, I think, was another one of those situations where, hey, give us your email and you can buy our stuff for cheaper, like one of those things. And so, so yeah.

So, so taking your, your solution and implementing it, you know, pretend I'm, I'm Stanton here. Uh, just, uh, 30,000 feet, walk me through how your solution solves my problem. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

The solution solves your problem. I mean, okay, just a second. I haven't gotten to this stage of planning.

You're getting a little, you're getting a little mini workshop here.

Um, you currently do not have a way to capture email addresses and market to them on the back end is Is one way I would think about it on the fly, I guess. I do a lot of my best thinking writing things out first, but yeah.

I think, no, I think that's a good answer. So you got a lot of visitors to your website. Not a lot of them are converting. You know, they're not buying. They're not staying on your website very long. You know, whatever metric you want to look at, they're not converting. So your solution gives a very high-value piece of content, essentially, for the offer, and then you fulfill it. You're going to provide the copy, the emailing, analysis of the metrics, etc.

I set up the standalone landing page for it. So when they click the button on the website, it takes them to just one page, um, to where they don't have any other distractions to click on. Whereas like, you know, entering it directly on the website, there's always buttons and like flashing things going on.

Yeah. Okay, so do you have any idea what your solution is worth to someone like it?

Yeah, $5,000.

And how did you come up with that number?

That is what's recommended by, um, Cole in Premium Ghostwriting Academy, so that's what I'm gonna go with until I feel differently.

Okay. Um, do you think you potentially could be leaving money on the table?

Um, $5,000 maybe. I mean, it kind of depends. I mean, that would be fine for me. Um, I feel like, you know, at least doing that project, then, you know, can open doors to, to more stuff because that's one piece of this.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's two things I want to kind of tease out of this conversation. The first is the first exercise of, of knowing what problem you're solving for the client or customer, however you're defining them. Um, you know, being very clear on what that problem is. And it sounds like You are clear. It's their website is not converting. So they're not capturing email. So then the question becomes, okay, what is that worth it to them? And that invariably leads to price. Now, you came up with a suggested price and I don't have any problem with $5,000. But the real question is understanding what it is worth to them allows you to potentially charge more. So if you understand the economics of their business, like what rate they have convert on their email sales, email to sales, and what their lifetime value of a customer is and their margin in that, now all of a sudden you've got some real dollars. You know, you, you, I've got 10,000 visits a day. I can move that conversion from 1% to 5%, and that increase is going to generate X dollars in lifetime value of customer. And all of a sudden, your pricing is opened up, right? The second thing I want to point out is I think your gut is right in that, you know, $5,000 is fine, iterate. I think so many business owners in general, but creatives specifically, get stuck in their head and think and don't act. And you can outthink yourself, you can overthink yourself, you can think until the cows come home, to use a Nebraska term. But if you don't act, you don't know.

Exactly.

You're just guessing. Yeah. Right. And once you act, you get feedback from the marketplace and then you can iterate. You can say, well, you know, this didn't work at this price point. This didn't work with the conversion rates that I thought, whatever it is. And that's the key is especially when you're trying something new to make sure that you have a product market fit. Is to just try it and then keep building on what you learn.

Yeah, definitely. I definitely have my, I definitely have my 10,000 hours of overthinking. I did a lot. You know, that's been most of my life. I think, I think I would say probably just in the last 3 years, I've really, I can really tell a difference of Acting, behaving differently, you know, like that chirping is still going on, but I act in spite of it a lot of times. And it's like not perfect. I'm always criticizing myself, but I can look back and see all of these different moments where it's like, okay, I did something. I did something. I did something.

Yes. So yeah. And I don't, I don't think that's unusual, uh, in the, in the sense, you know, I, my, my daughter, it is my daughter. One of my daughters is a figurative oil painter and. You know, in the purest sense of the word, an artist. And, you know, there's always this fear of when she puts something out into the world, what's the feedback going to be, right? Because it's very personal, passion-driven for her, the critique. What's it gonna— what are people going to say? I think the benefit that, you know, you and I have over her is that the work is not necessarily that personal, right? But we still get stuck in the fear of it, of like, maybe it's not the fear of what other people will say about it so much as it is the fear that it won't work. And that's when I go back to like, well, what's the lowest risk lowest amount of money I can try this with and see if it'll work to learn, because that's all you're doing at this stage is you're just learning. You're not trying to come up with the end product.

Yeah, totally.

So when you said you overthink a lot, is it overthinking or is it struggling with that fear?

I think, yeah, I think overthinking is the byproduct of, of the deeper thing. Yeah, for sure. Um, and it is, like I said, better now, but it is this ongoing conversation in myself of, um, I used to. So I was, I, you know, I drank a lot in my 20s. I ended up going to treatment when I was 29, and I can clearly point to the moment of getting sober to now. Before that, you know, that conversation, that overthinking, that fear was much stronger because I really, I didn't have clarity at all during the day and anything like that. So I couldn't really see things objectively. And so the more I continued that behavior, the less my self-esteem went down. Um, I was actually— I was listening to, uh, The Psychology of Selling by Brian Tracy. I guess it was suggested on Spotify, so I started listening to it, and it was really interesting. Um, right towards the beginning, it's just like him giving a talk live And one of the big things he harps on in the beginning is basically he's, you know, he's saying you will sell better and you will also just like do better at life if you like yourself. And he has— he talks about, um, and as he was saying that, I was like, oh shit, yeah, that's— I believe that to my core because I've seen the opposite side of that. And you don't do anything and you don't excel and you don't, uh, take any positive action when you just really hate yourself, and because you don't think you deserve it and you don't think you're capable or anything. And so, um, that is what I started discovering. You know, it's, it's a real cliché when you hear people say like, you need to learn to love yourself, and it's like, what does that mean? And I don't think people really can grasp that fully until you have found your own version of that. And that's what I started discovering, you know, in the time after getting sober and stuff like that. So, yeah, like the overthinking and the fear, it's still in there, but it's, it's more of a smolder instead of an inferno, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And I will tell you, you know, I turned 55 in 30, I don't know, 6 weeks. Um, and I can tell you that, that self-doubt, that fear is something that doesn't go away. That's what I've heard, yeah. Because, I mean, the reality is that the only way you eliminate that fear is you eliminate potential, right? So if I'm comfortable where I am and I'm satisfied with what's going on, which 99% of entrepreneurs are not, that's just because that's the way we're wired. If I'm satisfied, then I don't have to address those fears. I don't have to change anything. I just keep on, you know, until, you know, something happens to me. But if you're an entrepreneur and you look at the world and see potential of how things could be, how problems could be solved, how value could be extract, extracted. Well, all of a sudden that potential puts you in a place with, with, with fear. And it gets easier. To your point, I think it gets easier, but it never goes away.

Sure. Yeah.

One, one of the best tools that my business coach helped me with when I was struggling with a specific decision was, okay, what's the worst-case scenario? Like, you do this, what's the worst that could happen? And really made me think through it, all the ramifications. And then the question was, okay, can you live with that? And in that particular case, I was like, yeah, I can live with that. And he said, then do it. But it takes you out of that emotional state of fear, which in most cases, you overthink. I just ignored the problem. I ignore the feelings a lot of times. So I just don't feel the feelings, but they're there until they bubble up into some form of anxiety because I can't keep them can't keep that fear down. Yeah, but, you know, once you, once you shift into your rational brain and start thinking about, okay, what, what are the potential consequences of failure, uh, and really clearly defining them, you shift from your, your lower brain to your higher brain and your emotions. It, it's like deep breathing. You're, you're, you're resetting your emotions. Um, so that, that was a very useful tool tool for me.

Nice. Yeah, um, I, uh, I suppose that's right. And, uh, when I, when I consider what the worst-case scenario is for trying something at this stage in life, I think about, you know, how I lived my 20s, and I'm like, I don't know if anything could be worse than that, at least that I've experienced. And none of the consequences I imagine now stack up to that. So I think that, that also kind of pushes me forward. I'm like, I, you know, I'm not gonna wind up this way as a result of this thing. Like, right.

When you've lived— so it should free things up quite, quite a bit for you, right? Like having, having, having experienced that. Um, so right now What is the, if anything, what is holding you back from launching this product?

Oh, I mean, I'm working on, I'm working on my proof of concept right now. I want to have something, I want to have something running on my own profile to be able to point to and say, oh, I've done this. I have this and to be able to show like, you know, what my end result is basically. So I'm in the writing process right now. I'd like to be done no later than the end of this month, maybe. To have a landing page all done, automations all set up, all that kind of stuff. And I've done this to a degree. I did something earlier in January where I was just focusing on landing pages because I thought landing pages were cool, but I— but still things were not like clicking in my brain about how, how I move forward. And then I kind of stumbled on this and I'm like this feels much clearer because it's a, it's, it's, it's not selling a, um, it feels like selling a complete solution as opposed to like a single landing page is just one component. And when I'm selling the—

yes, you're, you're, yeah, you're solving the customer's problem.

Yes.

Right.

Completely.

And that's, you nailed it because And I think a lot of frustration and my frustration and every entrepreneur I've ever run into is that lack of clarity. Really, it's like, you know, if I knew what I needed to be doing, like, I'd just go do it. But it's that, you know, I'm not sure if I'm on the right path. I don't know if this is the right next move. And once you get that clarity, then it's full speed ahead, right? So I'm excited that you have that clarity. And I want you to hit us up after in April and let us know how that goes.

Okay. I'll make a note about that.

So going back to— and if you don't want to discuss this, it's totally fine. But I have another podcast that is focused on entrepreneurial mental health and mental wellness, self-awareness, those kind of concepts. And I'm curious about your, your struggle with alcoholism and that journey, if you'd be willing to talk about that for a couple of minutes.

Yeah, I'm a pretty open book, so ask away.

Um, so, so what point did you start drinking?

Um, 19. 19. So I think later than most, uh, you would assume, but, um, I was 19. Yeah, when I had my first drink.

Mm-hmm. Okay. At the point that you decided that you were going to stop drinking, what was that trigger for you? Like, at what point did you say, not going to do this anymore?

Um, there, I knew I needed to quit for years. I knew, uh, I, Yeah, I knew it. But the point that I finally got to, I was, I was maybe a little north of 360 pounds. I had— my legs were swollen up from edema, um, my blood pressure was off the charts. Like, I was just fucked up and, uh, teetering on diabetic stuff. And I think— I don't know, I see my doctor again, I don't know if I'm still diabetic or what. But anyway, I'm not, I'm not like that anymore. More. Um, and I got to this point finally. It was like, it was like every time I thought I need to stop drinking, I was chipping a little bit more away at getting to that breakthrough. And it finally came one day when I was kind of fighting with myself inside, and I realized I, I have two choices. I can continue on this path and not do anything. And I will— I, I, I felt like I was accepting life or death is basically— I was like, yes, continuing on this path is not only physical soul death, but also mental, creative, everything death. Because I wasn't— I wasn't accomplishing my goals. I was always so broke. Like, it was just completely throwing away any quality of life and like internal satisfaction. In addition to my physical well-being. And so I finally, I took a meeting with somebody. The place here in town is called the Independence Center. I took a meeting with her. I filled out a questionnaire. I talked to her and she, in much kinder doctor words, was like, yeah, you're fucked up. Right? And I was like, yep. And she was like, let me put you on a list and we'll call you as soon as we have an opening. And I think I was in treatment within a week or two.

So it was inpatient treatment?

Yeah, 28 days.

Okay. One of the things that always surprises me about addiction is the separating the physical addiction with alcohol. There certainly is a physical addiction. Versus the mental addiction portion, right? Yep. So what, what was the mental addiction for you? What, what was, what, what problem were you trying to solve with alcohol?

Oh, Jesus. You know, it's not like I had, like, I feel like I had a really good childhood, right? You know, unless there's stuff that I've blocked out that I don't remember, but what I remember was really good. Um, you know, I had both my parents. They didn't divorce till I was 17. Um, but I, I guess, I don't know, I've thought this through several times and I don't have one defined answer. But what I do know is that I still have that addictive trait in me. I still, I still smoke, and that is, that always feels purely mental. I never go long enough to feel the physical side effects. Um, I, I feel the same sort of pull and addiction towards even, even just, um, like I always have to be drinking something. Um, I always, um, I overeat. I'm, I'm very prone to binge eating. Um, so to me, the feeling inside is I identify it, I guess, as this anxiety, this ball of anxiety that's going around deep inside, and it's like a black hole. And so I feel like I have to stuff stuff inside of it so that it's full enough for a while that I don't have to think or feel about it. Um, and then eventually it comes back, and I don't know, I don't know what that is. Um, yeah, some of it, um, I know they used to— I used to see psychiatrists and stuff about like ADD and I assume I'm probably something kind of like that. I don't know. I don't really bother with labels. I just know how I am. So, but I guess, I guess a lot of it is, was, is low self-esteem. Eventually, that was what clicked in treatment for me, which I find very interesting because as a kid, I remember being so, you know, uplifted by everybody around me, being told that I'm smart and talented, I'm capable, all these different things. But I think the thing that messed me up then was having so much affirmation about all of these natural skills that I had that when confronted with the real world, when working a regular job, when doing all these things that were not my creative passion, I didn't know how to cope. And I didn't know— I didn't, I, I didn't want to keep living in a world where I was chained to this like hourly job doing bullshit, you know what I mean? So I don't feel like I was equipped to live real life, is, is how I feel. Um, interesting. And so I just kind of started spiraling out. I dropped out of college. I guess they kicked me out because I had such bad grades. But, um, then yeah, uh, my 20s happened.

So Yeah, I do think entrepreneurs in general are not well equipped by our education system, creatives specifically. It seems like the education system, even since I was young and in school, has gotten progressively worse in the sense that it's it's geared towards what can they measure the outcomes. You know, what, what, okay, Johnny did better on this math score, so therefore we're doing our job, right? Um, when you try to apply that rubric to creativity, you know, divergent thinking, there's no way to measure it. And so they don't teach it, you know, and And even the tangential things like music and art classes, well, those are just add-ons to STEM. We gotta do STEM, right? And entrepreneurship is primarily that divergent thinking, seeing the world as in its potential, what it could be, not what it is. And so there's absolutely no support you know, for us in the education system in that regard. I mean, as a matter of fact, you know, you're pretty much encouraged to shut up and get in line. Like, I don't care that you know a better solution to this. We don't want to hear it. This is what we're doing. And so I can understand how that creates anxiety in people when they're dealing with a world that doesn't want to hear what we have to say and doesn't value what we do. However, the beauty of it is, as an entrepreneur, you have the opportunity to prove them all wrong. And you can show your value the exact way that you want to. Yep.

Makes sense. Yeah. And what's crazy is I got really, really good grades all through grade school and junior high and stuff, and they started dropping off in high school, um, and then just got progressively worse in college. Because all the classes that I got good grades in, it's because I just— I, I do have a good aptitude for naturally retaining information and remembering stuff, and that's what helps me in Dungeons and Dragons too, because I like— I remember all these mechanics and rules and stuff, but When I had, when it came to classes where like I really had to sit down and study, I'm like, this, like, I don't care about any of this. What does it mean? Like, um, so yeah, once I had to apply effort to it, then I was like, this sucks.

I don't care, you know? Well, yeah, I mean, the, the, the, the funny thing is, is, and I'm, I'm convinced of this, the way they've structured the measurement with standardized testing, um, you can game it. And, you know, some people— I, I think I have this skill. Like, I'm, I'm good at multiple choice questions. Like, I don't even have to know the content. I just— I, I can read the question. Oh, the way the question is phrased, the way the answers are, are put together. Like, I can get myself a better than 50-50 chance just because I know how to take the test.

Because of context and everything. Yes. I, yeah, I noticed sometimes even in Jeopardy, the way they phrase things. So I think they try to phrase it tricky sometimes, but you, I don't know. I can't think of a good example, but you are right. The way that the question is asked sometimes can give away that answer. Yeah.

Yeah. I kind of want to go take the medical boards and see if I can pass.

Yeah, good luck.

I just to see.

I don't know if you think they're all multiple choice.

Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, it doesn't tell you a lot, give you a lot of confidence in doctors, right?

I don't know.

Well, uh, Josh, this has been a fascinating conversation. I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your experiences with us. How do people reach out to you if they want to learn more?

Hit me up on LinkedIn.

And it's just—

Oh, Josh Marshall, LinkedIn. I've got a pumpkin emoji next to my name. Right now my profile says stuff about landing pages. I'm gonna get that off there and get the right stuff up at some point. And yeah, I mean, that's the best way I'd say.

And we expect to hear back from you in 60 days to hear about your success or failure. Doesn't matter what you learned.

Yeah, we'd love to hear it. Once I've got my proof of concept built, then I've got to start reaching out. And yeah, and that makes me a little nervous, but I'm kind of excited to jump into that nervous mindset.

So go for the low-hanging fruit. Hell yeah. And again, just iterate. Well, listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the show, share the show, subscribe to the show. If you you don't like what you heard, shoot us a message and tell us what you'd like to hear, and I'll replace Josh. Until then, ta-ta for now.