From TV to Photography: John DeMato's Journey | John DeMato

a lot of branding photographers, and I'm not saying that all of them do, but it was the thing that kind of initially kind of pushed me away was the photos are beautiful. I'm not saying that the work isn't outstanding in terms of the technical components, the lighting, but the thing that I saw in terms of a gap was that they focused all of their effort on the beauty of the image, the vanity components. Whereas I come from the world of photograph, of shooting video of people hysterically crying and ready to throw people out windows, which means not that I want these folks to do that, but more Specifically, it's about the power of emotion in storytelling. And it's not just the power of emotion, but it's the importance of being genuine and being yourself, not being posed in front of the camera like it's a fashion shoot or an editorial spread or something, or in beauty. This is a very different thing. It's a very hyper-focused, very specific type of work. And that's where I saw how I could fit in and be unique about it.

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, John D'Amato of D'Amato Productions. Welcome, John.

Thank you for the invitation, Christian.

I appreciate it. Absolutely. I do want to give a shout out to our one listener in Skokie, Illinois. Thank you, Skokie. John, tell us about D'Amato Productions, how you got here.

How much time do we have for that? As long as you want, sir.

As long as you want.

Once upon a time, I started my working life after graduate school as a television field producer. I worked on a talk show in New York City and then in Stamford, Connecticut. And after 9 seasons of doing that and having a bit of a come-to-Jesus moment after my mom passed away, I realized that working in that world was no longer a fit for me. And for a couple of years prior to me exiting in 2014, I was shooting headshots and portraits and different kinds of things around my neighborhood, like some street photography, things of that nature. And I figured, well, I really enjoy this. I live in New York City. I'll be a headshot photographer. How hard could that be?

There's only 2 in the whole city, I've heard.

Right, right. Exactly. 200,000. I didn't have one iota of marketing ability within me at that time. Had no idea what the hell I was doing. Ended up freaking out pretty much every single day, going into a Starbucks, staring out the window, wondering what the hell did I do with my life and my career.

So I'm going to pause, pause real quick here and back up. When you said you had this come-to-Jesus moment that this wasn't for you, what specifically wasn't for you anymore?

I think it was the, it was the, the stress of working on a daytime talk show. It was the content that we were creating. It was very emotional heavy. You know, I worked on The Maury Show. So for those familiar with that show, you know what that show is about. And it's, it's dealing with people at, in their worst moments of their life, basically, over and over and over and over again. And it, it wore me down, if I'm being completely honest.

So I can imagine it would. I mean, unless you were just a psychopath and didn't care. Um, which I'm sure there are some that were and didn't. Right.

Well, unfortunately, I'm not. So that, you know, that checks out. And, you know, that, that was part of it. The other part of it was this— it felt like after a while, you know, after doing several thousand interviews, several hundred field pieces, getting on planes and going to all these different parts of the country and shooting all this stuff, you know, it just felt Repetitive over and over again, doing the same thing. You know, how many times can you shoot baby B-roll and not want to shoot yourself in the head? It's that kind of thing. So eventually, you know, that's why I actually picked up the camera, because in graduate school, I went to grad school for an MFA in TV production, not because you need paperwork to work in TV, but because I wanted 2 years to screw around and figure out what I wanted to do. And give myself, yeah, give myself that play space where there was no stakes other than getting a piece of paper that no one ever even cared for within the industry that I worked in.

No one asked for it.

Yeah, no, no, no, it wasn't for that. It was, it was literally for the opportunity to, hmm, maybe I want to work in a studio environment or a single camera, or maybe I want to be an editor, or I want to focus on writing. And I did the whole rigmarole, went through all the different things. And ultimately, single-camera field production was my jam. And that's exactly what I did at Mori. And that part was great. And to say that I got worn down, yes, but there were so many amazing lessons about storytelling that I learned there that I eventually applied to what I do now. Because after shooting headshots and starting to pick up some traction. And of course, I was a jack of all trades. So I'm shooting networking events and dating profile pictures, and I shot a 90th birthday party and wedding anniversary.

Yeah, I did the whole thing. Did you do food photography?

I did shoot once a video. It was a hybrid gig where I shot at the James Beard Foundation.

I don't know if you're familiar.

Yes, in New York City, which by the way is the tiniest place ever for such a prestigious place. They, they should throw some money into that. But I want, you know, that was also maybe 12, 13 years ago. I'm assuming they already did that. But regardless, I did photograph them prepping food and plating it, and I did interviews and all that stuff. That was a lot of fun. But What ultimately happened is I went on LinkedIn because I figured I needed to try to find people that I could, first of all, learn marketing from because I didn't really know what I was doing. And I stumbled upon this entire industry of people who parade around stages and speak on these topics because they're experts. And I had absolutely no idea that this even existed. Because, you know, I was in my own world for all those years. I thought it was— that kind of work was just for ex-presidents and Tony Robbins. And then I realized there's a whole thing out there. So as I, as I kind of delved into that a little bit more, the next thing I know, I'm working with these people, photographing them at their events and trying to make friends and network and all of that. And one thing led to another. And the next thing you know, I'm applying the way that I photograph these interviews and B-roll and these field pieces for television stuff. And I'm using that skill set for stills, for photography, because it all applies because visual storytelling is not just moving visuals. It's also the still ones too. So That's how I ended up getting into branding photography, event photography, and eventually book photography for experts who speak, coach, train, consult, and write books.

You know, I hear a lot of videographers talk about storytelling, but you're the first photographer that I've met that talks about storytelling. I'm wondering Do you find a lot of other photographers that share that vision, or are you fairly unique in that space?

Well, I mean, to say that I'm the only one would be a bit ridiculous. The truth is I don't personally know a lot of folks that focus on branding photography. In the way that I do it.

Okay. There are more. How do you, how do you do it?

Well, a lot of, a lot of branding photographers, and I'm not saying that all of them do, but it was the thing that kind of initially kind of pushed me away was the photos are beautiful. I'm not saying that the work isn't outstanding in terms of the technical components, the lighting, But the thing that I saw in terms of a gap was that they focused all of their effort on the beauty of the image, the vanity components. Whereas I come from the world of photograph, of shooting video of people hysterically crying and ready to throw people out windows, which means not that I want these folks to do that. But more specifically, it's about the power of emotion in storytelling. And it's not just the power of emotion, but it's the importance of being genuine and being yourself, not being posed in front of the camera, like it's a fashion shoot or an editorial spread or something, or in beauty. This is a very different thing. It's a very hyper-focused, very specific type of work. And that's where I saw how I could fit in and be unique about it. Now, the elements of it, if I were to compare what I do to another genre of photography, it would be photojournalism in that I'm trying to capture what's in front of the camera without controlling what's happening in front of the camera. Now, when I'm shooting branding photography, there is a level of control there.. But when I'm shooting events and masterminds and all of these other things, I have zero control. It is simply about capturing the moments that matter in that room for my client and the participants that are there as well. So that's how I kind of differentiate myself from other branding photographers. Again, the work is outstanding looking, but I feel like, they're— the, the essence of a lot of these people is missing, and that's where I step in and really go for it the most.

So I think I heard you say that your, your ideal client or customer is, uh, maybe an author, a speaker that is working on their own personal brand. Is, is that accurate, or would you like to expand on that?

A little bit of an expansion because there's also professional services. I've photographed some doctors, cosmetic surgeons, lawyers, accountants, some tech folks, and they're expert adjacent. You know, I say experts who speak, coach, train, consult, and write books because first of all, I memorized it and I'm pretty good at spitting that out at any time. So it sounds good. Yeah, thank you. I've done it a million times and I'll do it a million more. But it's also those folks as well, because anyone that is in a service-based business, they're also in the business of building relationships. And when you're in the business of building relationships, one of the ways in which you do that is by establishing a connection with people through the way that they, are introduced to you. And in many cases, they're introduced through, you know, your social profiles, your website, all of the different touchpoints on your online presence. And that's where these photos live. And that's why they consistently need to be, uh, in line with who you are as a person, who you serve, the problems you solve, and how you solve those problems so that they're— that consistency means that wherever these people come in through the front door, they're always going to see, they're going to see an actual realistic representation of how you want to be perceived by them. And that's my job to capture that.

Do, well, let me back up a second. Okay. Give me the repeated phrase again of who you help slower.

I serve experts who speak, coach, train, consult, write books, and are in professional services, people who are service-based business owners that need to connect with their audiences through, um, different touch points across their online presence.

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Do you find that those people think of what they need from you in terms of personal branding? Is that, is that what they're looking for when they come to you?

Yes.

Okay, so that, that's the way they define it.

They define it in a million different ways. I still have people saying I need headshots, and while headshots are definitely a part of every branding session, it is but one small part. They conflate the headshots with the wider portraits, with the lifestyle portraits. They just say headshots, and I've been trying for 8 years to smack that out of their heads, and I have been unsuccessful. But I'm going to continue to try.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Well, I think, I think a lot of professionals like us, we have to get out of our own way sometimes when we're, when we're marketing and selling, because we try to define it in terms of how we understand it and what we, we think we're trying to do and the way the customer understands it, because they don't necessarily speak the same language or define the problem the same way.

I definitely, I resonate with what you just said, and I also am of the opinion that there is a part of me that wants to be able to kind of help the people I serve to better understand what it is that they actually need and what it exactly is, because not only does it create an easier path for them to understand why they need to invest in these images, but it's also going to draw more people under the tent in the first place because now it's more of a well-established fundamental overarching principle as opposed to these groups of folks see it one way, one group sees it another way, and you kind of have to change the dialogue to be able to meet them where they are. Now, I'm not against meeting people where they are at all. And at the end of the day, if they call them headshots, the world's going to still spin and I'm going to be okay. That's just more of one of those little kind of, you know, things that stick in my craw, so to speak.

Oh, I know. I get it. I totally get it. But I think to your point, you have to engage them enough to be able to educate them.

You know, and it's also, you need to understand how they describe their problem because when you talk about it in your content, it has to, for example, perfect example of this. For the first, I would say out of the 7.5, 8 years that I've been specifically serving experts, professional service space, that area, I referred to my branding sessions as branded lifestyle portraits. And the reason was because I hated the fact that personal branding photography had been bastardized, in my opinion, based on how other photographers were using that keyword phrase to be able to get attention for their photography. When you look at their— it could have been headshot photographers or some other type of portrait photographer, but they're using branding because they know that that's what people would look up most. So I, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to come up with my own thing. And, and half the time, 75 to 80% of the time, I'd have to describe to people what the hell Branded Lifestyle Portraits was. And eventually I just came to the conclusion that, you know what, what I am doing is personal branding photography. I don't care what other photographers are doing. All I care about is sending a clear signal through the muck and the noise of the internet, of social media, and just get the attention of the people that I want to work with, that I will resonate with, that they can stomach me while I'm behind the camera for 2, 4, or 6 hours and just get the work done. Because ultimately, That's what matters most. They have people that they need to serve and help get past what's holding them back, and I want to help them help them. So let's just get it done. And that's what I did.

Yeah. And I think that, that you are a minority in that regard and having that clarity around what you do and the value proposition and who you're looking for. And I think that's a key component to scalable success is defining those things, whatever business you're in.

It's, I mean, it begins and ends there. If you don't know who you serve and the problems you solve, you have a problem because everything that you write, every word that comes out of your mouth, every word that other people that you've worked with, they're going to have a problem to describe how you serve other than saying, oh, "he or she takes great photos." Well, what the hell does that mean? That means that's as if you just got a testimonial that said, "John was amazing. I love all the photos." No one cares. They need to make it about— that's one of my big phrases is it's not about you, it's about them.

Are you familiar with Donald Miller's work?

StoryBrand? I'm familiar with StoryBrand. I have not read his book though.

I recommend, uh, and, and I guess his, his background was as a screenwriter, um, and storyteller. And, uh, I think it's, it's fascinating how that storytelling component weaves its way through virtually every aspect of our life. You know, it's not just marketing, it's, it's the way you communicate with others, the way you engage others, whether it's your, your spouse or your employees or It's a fascinating read. Okay, so who's the most interesting group to interview? I know it's not accountants. So who are your top—

Oh, people I like to photograph?

Yeah.

It's not about the group of people. It's about who the people are. I'm attracted to personalities. I'm used to interviewing a wide collection of humanity based on my background. Therefore, when it comes to the types of people I like to work with, it's really about their personality, the way that they express themselves. I will say one of the main reasons why I like working with experts of all different shapes, sizes, and flavors is because while I'm in the room and my job is clear and I'm pretty busy, the moment the camera comes out of that bag, I'm gleaning a lot of really interesting insights from people and learning about leadership and sales, branding, marketing, wellness.

So you do an ongoing interview as you're, as you're photographing?

Yeah, I mean, in my head, I'm taking notes. I'm gleaning. And the best part about it is, is it after the session is done, or after the event is done, and the photos are delivered and I've established a rapport with these people, I actually can pick up the phone in many cases and have a conversation with them and talk to them about what it is that they're an expert in and how I can apply those insights into my own life, my own business. It's killing two birds with one stone. It's keeping the lights on and it's enhancing up here. It's pretty amazing.

Always learning. Yes, always learning. That's, that's, uh, if you, if you stop learning, you, well, I mean, you've stopped having fun, but you've stopped growing. And you have to set aside— one, one colleague, uh, of mine describes it as a beginner mindset. So even if you're, if you were to interview another photographer or somebody in an adjacent space, is, is setting aside what you know and just pretending you're a beginner and what can I learn?

One of my clients who is a friend of mine, and I've been in many rooms with him where he's been facilitating or speaking, one of the first things that he says before at the beginning of every single mastermind or every training is relish rookie mode. And it is, yeah, it's something that I've photographed a lot of people. I've been in a wide variety of rooms. My level of confidence when walking into a room, it's no longer, can I do this? But whether, how am I going to make this stand out? And I'm fairly confident in what I do, but at the same time, The moment that those photos are delivered, and I review every single photo that I deliver to these clients, I am ruthless at how much I can get better at everything. Because at the end of the day, there is no mountaintop moment. You know, there is a constant level, leveling up, leveling up, leveling up, getting better. How do I get better? What can I do better next time? Celebrate what went really well and take that moment of gratitude and feel good. Absolutely. There needs to be that balance. I don't want to just rip myself to shreds, but I definitely do. I mean, I went to an art high school, I went to college for media studies, I went to grad school for TV production. All of these different things were filled with critiques where I was ripped to absolute shreds on a daily basis. I'm used to it. I have very thick skin. I can take it. And I'm my own worst critic. And I like it that way because I don't ever want to get complacent ever. I'm obsessed with what I do because I love it more than anything. And I am, you know, so appreciative and grateful that I gave myself the opportunity to even go down this path. So I, I, I never take it for granted.

I'm gonna pivot a second. So how, how did you approach pricing in the beginning when you started, and how do you approach pricing now? And, and a little side story on that— my, my son is graduating from, uh, the University of Oklahoma this, uh, well, in 3 weeks, 2 weeks, and he just had his senior pictures done and they turned out amazing and found out that this, this photographer had— I think she charged like $100 for the session and the deliverables. I told my wife, I was like, you need to pay her more and then you need to have her call me because she's not charging enough.

Yeah, that sounds familiar. When I first started, I think it was last year or the year before, I was thumbing through some of my notes on my phone and I came across a— it was a copy for an ad, some kind of ad I posted on social, and it said, "Headshot special, $75 for 20-something photos." I'm just like, whoa. I don't even remember doing that, but I definitely— I can see myself doing that because I did so much free stuff for so long just to get exposure that never exposed me to a damn thing other than to just basically shoot for free, which I still do on occasion, by the way. But free is not exactly the way I'd put it. It's an exchange, an equal exchange of value now. For different things. Might not be money, but it will be something else that is of extreme value to me. But the way that I initially priced my then branded lifestyle portraits was I had someone else price it for me. My first client was a, my first branding client was a, is a personal branding expert. And at the time she was putting out her first book and didn't have a social media presence. And she asked me, and it was with her that I created the whole, you know, promotional images, looking into the camera, the headshots, this, that. But we're also going to shoot you on your computer. We're going to do some more lifestyle stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't fully formed back then. Now I have a full system for it. Loads of questions I ask, but back then it was just throwing stuff against the wall during a phone conversation and that's what happened. So she goes, "How much for the entire day?" And I said, "I don't know, $750?" She goes, "How about $1,500?" I'm like, "Done." And from there, she then initially priced my 3 tiers of service and Since that time, they've all gone up significantly. But recently, not recently, about 2 and a half years ago, I stopped raising my rates and left them where they are. And the reason behind that for now is because I like the level of saturation that I'm getting from my inbounds, and I don't want to screw the pooch. So I'm leaving it where it is because I want the same amount of traffic to come in year to year. And over the past 3, 4 years, I've basically been at the same level, you know, plus or minus $10,000, but basically riding way further than I ever thought I'd be when I first quit. You know, to think I'd gross $100,000 taking pictures, I thought that was a pipe dream. And we're past that now. But the reason why I don't want to raise the rates and change the equilibrium of what's going on is because I'm thinking about what's next. And in order to truly have the mental space and the creative space to work on what's next, I need that money to be consistent. Therefore, as I'm working on it, let's keep it where it is. Let's work on the other thing. Let's try to build in more retainer work. Let's try to raise up, you know, the, the gross that's coming in. Ultimately, what I'm netting after taxes and everything, and then we'll raise the rates to something else. And then when it gets to another point, I can then start training photographers. And then we have a whole different bag that I really want to work with as well. So it's a process. It's slow growing. It's a long-term game. Ultimately, I'm happy though with where I am rates-wise now.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. I, I love that you said that it gave you the creative space, because one of the things that I, I talk about in the book is that profit and cash flow that, that it generates is, is critical. Because if you don't, if you don't have financial peace from those things, you can't be creative. It sucks the energy out of you. And I've seen time and time again, people implement Profit First and hit that transformation where whatever it was that was causing the anxiety. So, it could have been that they just flat out weren't making enough money. Uh, it may have been that they were making money, but they weren't sure, um, about the stability of it, or how much they were going to owe in taxes, or, you know, what's the, uh, topside potential. Like, something's driving that financial anxiety. And when you solve that problem for them and they move into that space where they have financial peace and, and can open up their creative toolbox again, it just changes their lives.

Yeah, I mean, I still, I'm still on the roller coaster. However, I also have retainer work that, that goes a long way. I'm working on acquiring more retainer work. And, and I will also say that while I am on the roller coaster, it's, it's a different ride than it was 10 years ago. It's not because, you know, during that time, during the beginning, it's full desperation mode. You're basically just looking for someone that can write you a check and you do not care what you're photographing. Whereas now your high months are considerably higher. Mine were. Than back in the day. So, you know, if you're walking away with something that's 10, 15 times more than what you were averaging when you first started, the world looks very different and you can stomach a month where you're dipping because you know that you have 2 to 3 clients that are coming in the door guaranteed for a certain amount down the line. And you also, of course, have the retainer work. And as I said, I'm working on getting more retainer work. So that's really where the key lies, the retainer work.

Yeah, because a lot of, a lot of creatives end up with unpredictable, uh, revenue and cash flow, and, and that certainly is anxiety. And like, even if you, if you end up with, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars over the course of the year, if, you know, 80% of it comes in the second half of the year, you're, you're very anxious the first half, right? Uh, because it's, it's not there. So it's, it's not just the amount, it's the predictability. Um, it, it's kind of like, you know, it's interesting with, um, salespeople. They did a study, uh, of, of commission-only, um, salespeople and those that were on a salary and a bonus, and it was a very high percentage chose the, the more predictable, right? Rather than the 100%. But those that chose the 100% commission made much more money than— and, and so I think what you're saying, your experience at the beginning, at the outset, is, is most every entrepreneur's journey is they're choosing predictability, uh, and leaving profit and, and more money on the, on the table.

Yeah. Especially when you're just trying to find your footing, you're trying to find your voice, you're trying to find, like for a photographer, trying to find your shooting voice, trying to figure out who you want to work with. What kind of life do you want to live? And that's dictated by the type of work that you take on. And when you're first starting out, you don't know anything. I don't know how else to put it. You don't know a damn thing. And it's really a crapshoot. But like I said, and the other thing about when you have the dips and you have the high moments, you never get too high and you never get too low over the course of time because you're building those muscles up to understand, okay, this is where it's going. And what it also does is it helps you understand how to leverage your time better. So when you're busy, you are busy shooting. You understand that that is a different mindset from when you're not busy shooting, but it doesn't mean sit around on the couch watching Netflix, doing nothing. You know, that's the time that you need to focus on planting more seeds. And you plant those seeds in a myriad ways. You know, you're writing content, you're writing relevant and valuable content. You're not just putting your portfolio up there to look all fancy because ultimately No one cares that you shoot pretty photos unless you point out to them why these photos are important to them and why they need these pictures. And that's where the storytelling comes into play with regards to the way that you create content. And then it, then there's outreach, you know, and not just trying to, here's my portfolio, here's my services. I've never talked to you, but I'm in this LinkedIn thing and you connected with me. So let me just, you know, barf out all this crap so that you can hire me, right? Because that's how you're supposed to do it. No, you need to sow the proper seeds by, you know, creating an opportunity for them to want to reach out to you, for them to want to engage you. So you need to engage them first in a way that shows that you care. And these are the things that you can do with your time when you're not actually shooting. So because at the end of the day, it's a business. It's not a hobby. So you got to work. And that's how it is.

If you were to go back 10 years and talk to your younger self, what advice would you give the young John D'Amato?

And I would help the young John D'Amato crush it is what I would do, because I was all over the place, man. I was, I was just like throwing stuff. I mean, let me rephrase. We're, we're always iterating and throwing stuff against the wall and not everything sticks. If you're a business owner, everyone understands that it is just the nature. It's, it's the path we chose. And that's the way it works. And that's okay. Because everything that slides down is a learning lesson that you can take away to apply to be able to get something that's a little stickier on that wall. But probably the biggest thing that I would tell myself first, when I first started out is You got to find the people that you want to serve. You don't want to just serve everybody. You don't want to spend all of your time being spread too thin and half an inch deep. You got to go narrow and all the way down with these people. You need to understand how they communicate the value of what you do for them. Understand what that means to them. Speak their language, or as one of my colleagues and friends. His book is called Lingo. Understand their lingo and communicate with their lingo in mind because you need to be able to establish the fact that you care enough about these people to learn what they care about and how they communicate. And that would have sped up the learning curve alone. Forget about the photography, forget about the actual you know, how to post and when to— all that stuff. Just that would have sped the learning curve up measurably.

Okay, so here's the follow-up question. Would the young John D'Amato have listened to you?

Yes.

Excellent.

Otherwise he would have been slapped in the back of the head and be like, well, shut up and listen.

I, I get asked that question occasionally, and I'm like, Yeah, I mean, here's what I'd tell myself, but I'm not 100% sure that I would've listened.

To be fair, Christian, to be fair, to be fair to what you just said, I quit TV at 35. I would've listened. If you mentioned this to me after grad school at 26, if I would've talked to myself back then, that might've been a different story. But the 35-year-old John, yes, he would've listened. He would've had enough experience.

Chance to know.

I was smart enough to know that I didn't know a whole hell of a lot, and I was open to anyone that gave me any sense of attention and advice because they genuinely cared.

Yes.

But in my 20s, I know what I'm doing. Whatever. I'll figure it out. That would have been me back then.

How do people find out more about you and what you do?

They just send up the bat signal. I'll see it and then I'll give them a shout.

Now, what if they're outside of Gotham?

Fair point. All right, let's talk about outside the city limits. The best place to find me is my website, johndamato.com. And on there I have all my links to my socials. You can connect with me through that way. And for those that are interested in learning more about what it is that I do for the people that I serve, I write a blog 3 times a week and it's on my website. You can check it out, sign up for it and learn a little more about it.

We'll have all of those links in the show notes. John, I really appreciate your time, your candor, your experience share. It has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Christian. The pleasure was all on this side of the screen, my friend.

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And that's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers. And don't forget, Profit First for Creatives is live via Amazon. Link below.