Grateful but Not Done: Jake Isaacs

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Jake Isaacs of Gathering the Kings. Jake, welcome to the show.

Christian, thanks for having me, man. I'm excited about the conversation.

I am intrigued. So tell me what Gathering the Kings is all about.

Yeah, we are an entrepreneurial mastermind and coaching community for high-level entrepreneurs.

And how do you define high level?

Thank you for asking. Uh, it's great. We, we want to work with family-minded entrepreneurs, people who are focused on not only building their businesses but making sure that they don't lose sight of the reason that they're building those businesses, which is to take care of the ones that matter the most to them. So high level for us is not necessarily a dollar figure. High level for us is your ability to control time.

Hmm, interesting. We'll have to explore that further. So why the name Gathering the Kings?

Yeah, we think that kingship is a mindset. It's not necessarily associated, associated to gender, but we want people around us that understand that they have a responsibility to take care of their community. They have a responsibility to take care of the ones that they have been given the ability to serve.

Yeah, I, I sigh because just today I was in a headspace for, for a brief moment of like, I'm really tired. Like, I'm tired of making decisions, of encouraging, of setting the vision, of coaching, of the responsibility, really. And fortunately, I was— honestly, I was able to just pray. And that resolved it. I can't say that that would be how I would have handled it in the past. Um, but it, it's, it's a, it's a heavy burden, and it's a, it's a lonely burden, um, to be in charge.

Yeah, definitely. And Christian, you probably know this, but, you know, there are statistics out there that 86% of entrepreneurs deal with burnout, anxiety, some form of depression. And so that feeling that you had earlier today You're not alone in that feeling. The problem is most people aren't vulnerable enough to talk about it because we as a society aren't really given the latitude to be able to be vulnerable like that and say that the decision is heavy, that that weight is pushing us down.

Mm-hmm. So your mastermind— How is this community organized? I'm curious.

Yeah, so we are from all across the United States. It's a virtual community. That's how we— that's our touchpoint on a weekly basis is via Zoom. We get together a couple of times a year to have some shoulder-to-shoulder interaction with one another. But really, we are just doing a good job on a weekly basis of getting in community with each other. It is not industry-specific. In fact, we say that we're industry agnostic because we understand that the challenges that you have running a roofing company are probably the same challenges that a CPA has. It's just the widget is a little bit different. And so being able to talk to other business owners who have had success in a different field or a different industry creates this environment that we call agitation of thought. Something that you may not have thought of specifically for your sector of the market could work because you heard it work somewhere else.

I find that those are some of the most brilliant insights I have— well, brilliant for me— as an entrepreneur, is looking at how others in other industries do things and seeing how that could be applied. Because I think whatever industry you're in and the longer you're in business, there's a tendency to silo and get caught in groupthink. And, and just like the— in, in accounting, we have a great word, a phrase, an acronym actually called SALI. SALI.

SALI.

Okay. And it's a legitimate accountant term. If you see it in work papers, it means same as last year. Oh, okay. It's really kind of stupid, to be honest with you, because I mean, it's shorthand for like, I'm not going to explain what I did, the same thing that I did last year. But it is kind of indicative of the mindset of like, well, whatever worked, we're just going to continue doing.

Right?

Um, which is not a bad thing until you get trapped in it. Um, okay, so you meet weekly. How big are the groups?

I'm sorry, say that again. How big are the groups? Yeah, so they're not individual groups. It's just, uh, we meet together as a large group. You can come as your schedule is available.

Okay.

And so, uh, we have weekly touchpoints on Wednesday afternoons where, you know, my business partner and I believe that regardless of the business or regardless of the industry, all business owners need to master 4 basic concepts in order to be successful. You have to have an understanding of operations or fulfillment. You have to have an understanding of sales and marketing. You have to have an understanding of finance. And then you have to have an understanding of people or leadership inside of your organization. And so we get together every Wednesday afternoon to talk about one of those 4 topics and teach different insights from different industries.

Did you leave out finance in there?

No, if I did, it was an oversight. Finance, sales and marketing, people and leadership, and operations.

Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't hear it. I'm blind to it.

Yep, nope. Definitely have control of the money and understand how that's moving.

Yes. So, um, I have been in Entrepreneurs Organization for 14 years, um, and we have a slightly different format where we're put in groups of 8 to 10, uh, that meet on a monthly basis in person, although there are some forum groups that, uh, meet virtually. As well. That's kind of morphed. But the original model was, you know, face to face on a monthly basis. And we have some ground rules, which I think is important. There's, you know, obviously strict confidentiality. That's uber important. There's no solicitation. So like there's no, you know, pitching your services. But we try not to put competitors in the same forum, right? Or business partners, you know, just so that you have that space to be as open and honest as you can be or you're willing to be.

Yeah.

And one of the things that I have found so profound in that group is listening to others So, the format is pretty much the same of updates and then a deep dive where one member will come with an issue or a problem to discuss. But the final rule in the forum is that you don't give any advice, unless it's asked for. You can ask for someone's advice, but it's all the Gestalt protocol of, experience share. So, you know, Jake, you come and you say, I'm having money troubles and in my business, I don't know how I'm going to make payroll. And I thought I'd gotten out of this space, but I'm here I am a year later, like, and I need you all's experience around that. So it's not, okay, Jake, well, you need to go to the bank and you need to get a line of credit or you need to look at your expenses. It's none of that. Sure. Unless it's asked. I mean, and occasionally people ask for specific advice. It's, okay, well, let me tell you about when my business was in a cash crunch and this is what I did and this is how I felt and this is what I would do differently or this what worked, what didn't work. And what I found listening— so I thought that the real value takeaway was more of like a collaboration of Minds to solve my problems, right? And I'm going to come here and I'm going to say, this is my problem, and then, you know, I'm going to get all this brilliant insight. But really, the value for me over, over those— over that decade plus has been when I hear someone else's experience on a completely unrelated matter that resonates with me and gives me some insight that I didn't even know was there. Like, it's just being present, being willing to listen, not trying to necessarily contribute anything. I mean, yeah, you're expected to, but just that passive listening and absorbing of what other people are experiencing and feeling and going through has been the most powerful to me.

Yeah, it's why through history we have learned through storytelling. Mm-hmm. You know, the, the spoken word passed down is the best teacher that you can have. And so being in environments where you're listening to people who are either further along or farther behind you sharing from their experiences, if you're willing to sit in that environment, you can learn so much by just being present. You know, I think so often we're constantly thinking about the next thing or, uh, checking off the to-do list, and it's hard for most people to be present in the moment. And so when you slow down enough to be in these environments, like, there's real power in learning there.

Yeah. And so, you know, I'm curious, you have people come to you and say, oh, what's this Gathering of the Kings about? Like, you know, asking, should I join? What do you hear from people that choose not to go down that path? Like, what are some of the things they say? When you make your pitch, so to speak, of why they choose not to engage you?

Yeah, you know, it's typically along the lines of, you know, I don't need to pay for relationships. I don't need to pay for advice. I don't need to pay for coaching. I know what I'm doing on my own. It's, it's people who believe that they have all of the answers and they can't contribute. You know, one of the filters that we use, Christian, when we're evaluating membership inside of Gathering the Kings is this phrase, "Grateful but not done." We want people who understand that they've accomplished a little bit in life, but that there are always other levels that they can reach if they continue to stay humble and plugged in.

I love that. Humility has been a very hard-learned lesson. For me. And I think I'm not unique because I think there's a certain amount of hubris that has to be there to start the business, right? There's kind of a, I don't care what anybody else says, I'm going to do this. I can do this. The naysayers, I'm not listening to them. And so there has to— I don't know if it's just self-confidence or blind ignorance or stubbornness. I don't know. All of those things, right? Combination of all. Yeah. That gets you on the journey.

Right.

But I can tell you that my ego has caused me more problems than the market or customers or suppliers or employees combined. Like hands, hands down, right? Um, and, and there's not, there's not a way to unlock that learning if you're not willing. Like, the, the, if you have all the answers and you don't need any help, then, well, then you can't be helped.

One of the things that we do with all of our members is we put them through what's called a Predictive Index assessment. Are you familiar with Predictive Index? Sounds vaguely familiar. It's a, it's a personality test that the United States military commissioned back in the 1950s, and it's continued to evolve since the '50s. It's fantastic. But to your point, we ask all of our members to take it when they first get started because we know that when you have a good idea of how you operate as a person and what makes you tick, uh, you're able to be kinder to those around you. You're, you're able to be kinder to yourself. And the Predictive Index is based off of 4 personality traits. One personality trait is autonomy, which is your ability to choose or to be self-sufficient. And to your point earlier, every single member of Gathering the Kings scores high on autonomy because in order to be an entrepreneur, you do have to have that gumption that you're talking about. You need to be able to have that stick-to-itiveness, not be afraid of failure, not be afraid to take the risk, you know, kind of understand that it's going to be your way or the highway, and that's how you're going to be successful. The problem is that can only get you so far. Once you start incorporating team members, you can't live in that my-way-or-the-highway mentality all the time. And so having an understanding of what makes you tick and what makes everyone else around you tick gives you the grace and freedom to interact with your team?

Yeah, that's one of the things that I really struggled with as a younger man, because my vision of leadership, that my way or highway thing, there's a lot of it culturally ingrained in us here in the United States. I mean, We really hold up the people that by just force of their personality, they can get people to do what they want. Sure. You know, the Nick Sabans, the Steve Jobs, the probably Bill Gates, the, the people that are just so much gravitas, so much weight. That, that, you know, people are going to do what they, they say regardless. But, and so that's what, that's, that's what I knew. That's what I thought worked. And, and I, I've come to the conclusion that I do not have the fortitude for that to work. Um, I think the, the people that can use that type of, of leadership, or even if that is real, like, I, maybe that's just anecdotal and that's what we spin the tales around, like maybe those people really aren't like that. But that seems to be a really, really hard way to lead.

Yeah, I agree. You know, the joke I make a lot is I'm a child of the '80s and '90s, and so I grew up watching the G.I. Joe cartoons. And the tagline at the end of the G.I. Joe cartoon is knowing is half the battle. Mm-hmm. That's a phrase that I've applied to many areas of my life. Just because I understand how I tick, that's only part of the equation. I have to then show up differently. I have to be a different leader, you know, thinking that I can motivate everyone around me the same way that I get motivated. That's arrogance. That's trying to put a square peg through a round hole. And so At some point, I had to pick my head up as a leader and understand, hey, not everyone around me operates the same way that I do. Maybe I should cue myself into what motivates other people so I can use that carrot to help motivate them to get what I want out of life.

Yeah, totally. I mean, that, that's a huge mindset shift that I think most entrepreneurs miss, or they get stuck there, is that they, they're— they get constantly frustrated with their their team of like, why don't they think like I do? And I'm like, dude, you're not— if they thought like you, they wouldn't be your employees. They'd have their own business, right? Like, yep. And but that requires you to be very uncomfortable because, you know, I think specifically around the management of people, entrepreneurs don't like to be managed. They're highly autonomous, right? So I'm like, I assumed for a long time that people wanted to be managed the same way, which was tell me what needs to be done, give me the tools, give me the parameters and leave me alone. I'll come ask you if I've got questions. Well, that's not the way most people work, right? And that caused a lot of frustration.

Yeah, no, 100%. 100%. You're right. The misconception is that it's, it's your baby, so someone's going to treat your baby the same way that you would. And, and that's not what you're paying them to do, right? Like, at the end of the day, you have to remember that your employees are here to collect a paycheck. Now, if there's job satisfaction on top of the paycheck, you've done a good job in building the culture of your team. But the reality is, if, if they won the lottery and the Brinks truck backed up their driveway, Tomorrow they're not coming in to answer the phones for your plumbing company, like, and so you have to make sure that you're building systems and processes around your employees that help them get the job done, but also help you replace them quickly in a matter of, you know, moments when you need an extra person or when you need to replace that person.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. So I want to pivot and talk about this high level. I have a lot of thoughts around that. I think one of the problems that men have, I certainly have had, struggled with for, I would say, 28 of my 29 years as an entrepreneur, is my identity being in the business. Yes. My self-worth being in the business. Whether I'm successful or a failure depends upon the business's success or failure. And, um, I feel like I was a good father. I am a good father. All my kids are grown. I feel like I prioritized my family when they were young and was very involved. So it didn't, it didn't negatively affect me in that way. I always knew that my priorities weren't the business. Like, for me, it literally was, you know, God, family, country, business. Like, I, I, I— that was— and I'd say country like community, like maybe not the nation itself, but it was properly aligned as far as what I was doing. But underlying that, because I derived my self-worth from the business, it kept trying to skew those things, right? Like, it was, it was always a challenge.

Yeah, Christian, I think one of the things that you're talking about now is, is actually the root of why there is so much mental health issues inside of the entrepreneurial space. Because we don't properly have our value aligned. You know, our identity is 100% the success of the business. You know, mm-hmm, I am a plumber. I own a plumbing company. Well, no, that's your vocation. That's how you've chose to make money. That's not who you are. And a lot of times, we don't slow down enough to establish our own goals. We don't slow down enough to establish our own identity, and we're just grasping at what we see other people around us doing. And so we believe that the picture of success looks like a fancy foreign sports car and a big house. But if you actually were to slow down, that's not what aligns with your value. Your value is, you know, success to me is being able to donate 10 hours a month of time to a local soup kitchen or to help in a veterans ministry or, you know, mm-hmm. But people don't take the time to define what success looks like for themselves. They don't take the time to establish what their identity and what their value is. And so the business fills that gap because it's easy to spend time. Working, especially as men. It's easy to keep the calendar full.

There's always something to do.

100%.

And it always— I mean, not always. It's like, it is compellingly addictive. Like, solving problems, fixing things as an entrepreneur, finding that next gap and filling it, that feels good. Like, so, you know, it gives you a rush.

Yeah, no, to go back to your point earlier, it's the ego, right? When you solve those problems, when you become the superhero for your team, it's a dopamine hit. I mean, it's a total rush. And that's where most people will establish their value is I need to be the fixer, I need to be the Superman, I need to be the guy that's wearing the cape and fixing everyone's problems and being the go-to. And that mentality right there is what keeps most people from being able to actually grow their business and obtain the levels of freedom and success that they desired when they started their business.

Yeah, and I, I've even seen— I don't know that I'd admit to it, but probably— I've even seen where you create problems subconsciously so that you can fix them. Like, you sabotage yourself. You like— which, which you probably don't even notice what you're doing. Um, which is nuts. I mean, that's just plain crazy.

Yeah, yeah. But again, it's, it's because that's how you feel good, you know? Yeah. My business partner tells a great story about, uh, this moment where he was slowing down to play a board game with his 3-year-old son. And, you know, it was in that moment that he he felt guilty for slowing down and, and not being quote unquote productive in that moment. And so he had to reframe it. Success was building into his son. Success was building memories for his son. And, and that's what was productive. It wasn't, you know, the 30 minutes of playing Jenga. It was the, the future memory that his son will be able to hold on to and, and take away as an adult?

I don't know who said it, but it was like— and they were talking about golf, I think. And it was like, you have success in the business so that you can go play golf. But then while you're playing golf, you're feeling guilty about not being at work and thinking about work. And it's like, it's so jacked up. It is so jacked up. And I'm curious how you help entrepreneurs find those values. How do you help them figure that out?

Yeah, well, first of all, we try to get everyone to understand that the notion of work-life balance is a total myth. For you to feel like you've got to balance all aspects of your life means that you're taking away from one in order to give to the other. And that's not how you become successful. You don't, you don't become a successful father by balancing your time. You become a successful father by being obsessed with your time. And in the moments that you're able to give to your family, that you're 100% present. That means putting the phone in the briefcase or leaving it in the car so the time that you have is valuable. Like, you're, you're there, you're in the moment.

Mm-hmm. Yes. But well, let me rephrase the question then. Do people come to you saying that my business and my values are out of line, like they already are aware of that?

Yeah, I think that most people recognize that there's a different level that they can achieve. And that they, they understand that if they keep running down the path that they're running down, they're going to end up like me, right? Me, Jake Isaacs. Part of, part of my story, Christian, is that I couldn't separate success in my career with success in my family. And it cost me my marriage because I was too invested in working and the things that I said that I was trying to achieve Through my business, I was sacrificing at home with my family. And so what we do is, is we talk to the entrepreneurs about building systems that give them the opportunity to get time back in their schedules, because it is possible, but you have to be intentional about it. And most people are showing up every single day reacting to the day as it happens as opposed to being intentional.

Mm-hmm. Yes. And I think the next level thinking as an entrepreneur is understanding that the most successful entrepreneurs are the ones that don't really do anything themselves. Right. They just build the systems, set the vision, get the right people, And that can sound like pie in the sky when you're running a plumbing company. Right. But the reality is that the only thing that's necessary for the entrepreneur is to set the vision and provide the leadership. Correct. The actual mechanics of doing anything, whether it's the operations or the marketing or the finance or any of it, that you know, you don't— that's not critical.

It is 100% possible to build a machine that is successful. Most entrepreneurs start their entrepreneurial journey as the doer, and so they're building their business from the ground up. And so for them to center around them, correct? Yes, 100% centered around them. They are the, the, the action driver, the revenue generator, the chief salesperson. You know, the guy that cleans the toilets from the break room because that's all that they can afford as they're getting started. And so the idea of letting go of some of those tasks as you continue to grow questions your self-worth. One of the things that we see with our business owners is they have a hard time disassociating their actions from revenue generation actions inside of the business. And so my time feels good going out to that job site and framing out that new room for the addition that we're putting on because the sweat, the, the backbreaking work, that is all associated directly to money that is being created by your efforts. But when you're building a business that is running as a machine, that's not the only part of the machine that needs to be successful.

Yeah, and I think there's a couple other things at play there. Is one, you may actually enjoy doing it, right? Like that may be something you actually derive pleasure from. For sure. Not always. But there's also the predictability factor. Like our brains are wired for predictability. And anytime we move into the unknown, the brain starts to work against us. And I noticed this behavior, you know, when I started working with a business coach several years ago, of like, you— it's, it's not— for me, it was not, um, it was very subtle. It was like, well, I rather than going into that unknown thing. Um, it may have even just going to the coaching meeting, that might be the unknown thing, right? Uh, or, or it could be exploring something that I was not sure, uh, about the outcome. It was, well, I've got better things to do, I've got more important things to do, right? And, and your brain drives you back into that stuff that is very predictable. You know what's going to happen when you swing that hammer or run that 10 key, like it's, um, but it's not necessarily the highest and best use of, of what you should be doing, correct?

Not if you want to continue to grow and, and push forward.

That's an interesting— okay, so let's talk about grow. So I, I find that the default status of every entrepreneur. It's like, let's grow, right? I was that way. I'm still that way. And I don't know that that's necessarily wrong to want to grow because I think it's very hard to stay level. You're either going forwards or backwards. Holding the line between the two is very difficult. So, given those options, growth does seem like the preferred one, like not shrinking. But it's the growth to what end? Like, what is the outcome that you are trying to achieve? Growth for growth's sake really can just become another hamster wheel.

100%. You know, we're wired as human beings— I mean, through the history of mankind, the single thread that you can tie every generation to is growth and improvement. You know, it's the story of human history. How do we get better? How do we improve? How do we take today's environment and make it better for tomorrow. And you're 100% right. If you don't have a definition of what success looks like in your individual life, then you're just growing to grow and you're on this hamster wheel not knowing what tomorrow is going to bring, not understanding what you're working towards.

Yeah. And I think, I think That honestly goes back to the root cause of like— because I mean, if we're honest with ourselves, the path should be for any true entrepreneur is to build a business, sell it for a lot of money, repeat. Like that, right? But because of our identity being tied up into it, The idea of it going away, selling it, well, like, what the hell would I do? Like, I'm literally dying. Like, what? What? Right. And I've talked to entrepreneurs that have had very successful exits, and then they sit around and they literally go into depression because it's gone. Like, I don't—

I don't—

right.

There's no purpose.

Exactly. Exactly. And so I think that fear of that unknown of like what's after that kind of sabotages ourselves of like, well, we'll just kind of— we won't grow too much. We're never— we're going to— never going to get to that point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because most people don't start with an end in mind or they don't understand. They haven't defined what they're working towards. Mm-hmm. Not to be a broken record on that, but, you know, if you get up today or if you get up tomorrow with no vision of what tomorrow is going to look like, the hours are just going to pass you by and you're going to go to bed not having accomplished anything more or less. You just have survived for the day. If, if you want to actually get somewhere in life, you have to have goals and you've got to have a vision of how to get there. You know, I can wake up and say, gosh, I really hope that I lose weight today. But if I don't take any action into the desire of losing weight, it's not going to happen for me.

Yeah, Dr. Kotz was on the show several episodes ago. He wrote the book Contextual Intelligence, and he talks about the meta, meta skills of foresight, hindsight and insight. And so foresight is what you're describing in the future. And he said the difference, the difference between, um, you know, productive foresight and like fantasy is that you bring that into the present to drive your actions, right? Same thing with hindsight. Like most of us, I certainly did spend a lot of time in hindsight in rumination, like beating yourself up about a bad decision or, you know, wishing that you hadn't done this or that, rather than objectively looking at it and say, what did I learn that I can bring into the present to use, right? But no, you're exactly right. We can waste a lot of mental energy both in hindsight and foresight if we're not doing it the right way.

Yeah, no, 100%. It's easy to get your head in the clouds. It's harder to take— it's harder to take that head-in-the-clouds idea and bring it into tangible action for today.

Well, and I think I almost forgot his most brilliant insight. He said that the difference in people when they're thinking of the future, what makes it a fantasy is they don't think about how they're going to be different. They only think about how every— the results or the external variables are different. I'm going to have a house, you know, I'm going to have this money, I'm going to have these relationships, whatever, rather than understanding that they're going to be different in the future. And what about them right now needs to change in order to— like, we think that it's the external things that change. It's actually us, the change that drives those external changes.

100%. Yeah. Couldn't agree with you more on that. And the problem is we just don't understand how to create those actions. Right. Perfect example. I was on a call with a client of ours earlier today and we were talking about what his goals for the next quarter are going to be. And one of the goals that he said that he wanted to do was to have less chaos. It's like, that sounds good and it looks cool when you write it down on paper, but what does that actually mean? You've got to be able to quantify what less chaos is. Does that mean you have less sticky notes on your desk? Does that mean you've got more time back with your wife? Like, what does less chaos mean? And, and so we have these pie-in-the-sky ideas, or we have these things that we believe that we want, but there's no clear pathway on how to get them because we haven't completed the thought. We haven't taken it one step further. And I think that's what Dr. Kotz is talking about right there.

Yeah. And I have found that oftentimes when I am thinking about the future, the future that I want, the vision that I'm casting for the organization, there isn't a lot of clarity. I found one of the most useful tools for that is the Vivid Vision. It was created by Cameron Herald, and it was actually— he runs an organization for COOs, for the second in commands, right? Yep. And the Vivid Vision was a tool in order for the visionary, the CEO, to give the rest of the team the clarity of this is what the future looks like. And the first time that I started working on it, I thought that the vision was clear to myself. But when I started going into the detail of like, okay, what does this look like? What does this look like? Go through all the aspects of your business of saying, What's different? How is it different 3 years from now? Right. I realized that I didn't have that detail. And then I was like, well, if I don't have that clarity and understanding, how in the hell is anybody else going to get it right? Like, there's no way.

Yeah. Yeah. There's an expectation gap which creates an execution gap because we assume that everyone understands what it is that we have communicated to them. Without any additional follow-up or further conversation around what the expectations are. And so then you send the minions out on their way and they go and perform what they believe that they should be doing. And it is not what you wanted. It's not what you thought that you communicated.

Yeah, I think it was the CEO of Samsung. Don't remember his name. But he said, I find that my job as CEO of this, you know, multibillion-dollar company is just repeating myself a lot. And I'm like, huh? Yeah, that totally makes sense now that I'm not CEO of a multibillion-dollar company. But even in my tiny little company, like, I do find myself repeating a lot. And I used to get frustrated with it. But then I understood that, like, no, this is normal. Like, you're not Moses. You don't come down from the mountaintop and say it once and then everybody goes, oh, okay, well, I'm going to go do it. That's not the way it works. Yeah.

Yeah. The gap between Cameron Herold's vivid vision and like the execution that I'm talking about, I think is done really well by Geno Wickman's EOS process.

Yes.

Right. Which is getting in on a weekly basis and having very specific scorecards and touchpoints to make sure that everyone is on the same page through the course of the lifespan of this project. There's not one big vision casting in the beginning and then the end. Hey, did we all hit the same bullseye?

Yeah, I love Traction. I love Gino. I've never met him, but we've been using EOS for about 7 years. And I can tell you that I wouldn't run a business without it. I really wouldn't because—

I 100% agree with you on that. And I would hazard a guess, Christian, that when you first started a system like EOS, it felt very monotonous and repetitive because you're like, I just said this 7 days ago, or last Tuesday I said the exact same thing.

Not so much. What I found with implementing EOS was I realized some very glaring holes in the organization. Sure. Maybe communication was there, but it wasn't the— to be honest with you, the thing that EOS showed me first was the lack of trust in the team. And if someone had asked me, was there trust in the organization? I would have said yes. But the reality was that they didn't trust me to not go off chasing squirrels and change my mind. And I didn't trust them when they said that, yeah, this is going to get done, it would get done. But it was a circle, right? Like, and both of us were right. There wasn't any blame there. We both were right. But having to establish that trust, which, you know, Lencioni is one of my favorite business authors and his Five Dysfunctions of a Team. That's the foundation of execution is trust. And we had to start at square one and it was not a lot of fun, but You know, I think when I talk about trust with my team, trust is an ambiguous word. It could mean a lot of things. But in the context of work and working in a team, trust is I can tell you something that you may not want to hear without fear of repercussion. Right. And that may, that may not even mean like, oh, I'm gonna get fired. It means like, you're gonna, uh, you're gonna shut down. You're, you're, you're not gonna listen to me anymore.

Yeah, yeah. When we go have lunch, we're actually gonna be able to have a conversation. You're not gonna sit there and, you know, stare at chips and salsa.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, me, it was pouting. I pouted a lot, you know.

Right. Yeah, I mean take Pat's triangle a little, or pyramid, a little higher up, and it's conflict. And I think one of the things that I have found as the workforce gets younger and younger, it's that we have developed this system where if we're in conflict, it's because I don't like you. And that's not the case at all. It has nothing to do with, you know, your ideas are not valid in this scenario, but that doesn't mean that you're a bad person, or I don't like you as a person. And so wading through some of those conversations has been rather interesting.

No, I think it's a keen observation that culturally, we've shifted to like the penultimate stasis status is lack of conflict. Like that's nirvana, right? Some people even say that that's love. Really love is the absence of conflict? I'm like no, just ask anybody that's been married a while. No, but you're right, healthy conflict— and that may be the key is that people don't know what healthy conflict actually looks like. They're focused on all the destructive conflict that you see, right? But there is healthy conflict, right?

Yeah.

How do people find out more about Gathering the Kings, Jake?

Uh, they can visit us at gatheringthekings.com. I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn and Facebook at Jake Isaacs, so they can find out more about the organization both places.

Awesome. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. And until next time, remember, you are not alone.