How Do Consultants Build Credibility and Get Found by Clients? | Rachel Minion

I never thought I was going to be able to do it on my own. So the kick to go do it gave me the challenge that I'm going to show you, and oh my God, I now have to do this and I had no notice. So now what? And it gave me the ability first to start scaling up and scaling up and scaling up, and then I realized I built something I hate.

Welcome to Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. I am going to admit my ignorance. I thought that Gettysburg was not in Pennsylvania. I thought maybe it was in Virginia. I don't know where I got that, but anyway, thank you for listening. Joining me today, Rachel Minyon of Rockstar Moon. Rachel, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful.

It's a, it's a rough morning. Uh, okay, so tell us what Rockstar Moon is.

So Rockstar Moon is a marketing agency for consultants where, to be quite frank, every consultant's so great at what they do, but nobody knows about it. It's like they're that best-kept secret. So we help them get found, we help them instill credibility infrastructures, and then really be able to use their past wins to go sell more.

I love that. Okay, so when you, when you say infrastructure, what does that look like?

So when you think about it, right, it's not enough for me to have testimonials on my website anymore. We all have ChatGPT. We can all say, oh, Rachel is amazing, and put that up there with some random person's face. That doesn't work anymore. We don't believe it. So we need not only to have recommendations, we need Google reviews. But then let's take it a step further. It isn't just a testimonial on a website.— it's how do we get a case study where the customer's the hero? How do we then get a video testimonial? How do we use each of these different pieces to continue to promote the other businesses because the client is the hero in the case study, but be able to use that to resell it and put all of this into a package where it really makes sense as to you are the industry leader and the natural fit for that ideal client of yours.

So you keep using customer as a hero. Are you a disciple of Donald Miller? Nope. No?

Okay. No, I'm not a StoryBrand girl. I'm just, I think there are so many case studies that I've read. I was in product marketing forever and ever and ever where the product is the hero and the company is the hero, but isn't the person using it and who's getting the value of it? Shouldn't they be at the center of it? Shouldn't it be their story versus we came in and put our stuff here and now we're so great?

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I am a fan of Donald Miller, and I've had several of his disciples, uh, on the show. But I mean, you read his book, it's, it's not like he invented that idea. He just presented it as, as the, the eternal truth of all stories, throughout recorded history. So, um, you just didn't brand it very well, uh, or, or you would have been that successful. Um, so you said you were, you said you were in product marketing. Um, how long have you been with Rockstar? I mean, when did you start it?

I started Rockstar 16 years ago, and I started it as a side hustle so I could actually go and get the bigger corporate jobs. The hard part was, is my parents' business had closed, and it was in the printing industry. And no one believed that a woman in the printing industry knew what she was talking about, could go in and like develop the estimating software and do 400 estimates a day and run production at the same time and get 100 jobs out the door in a day, and that I could hop on a press and I could get into bindery and that I could do these things. And because it was my dad's business, they said, well, None of these things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I needed to start a side hustle where I could start growing my skill set and being able to show that I can do this and do it profitably. So I always had Rockstar Moon as a side hustle, and I ended up in the world of tech and product marketing, and I loved that fit for a while. And then I ended up at Ticketmaster, which I thought was my dream job. And I was running marketing for a division of Ticketmaster. It doesn't get better. And I was like, well, what do I do? I have a side hustle. I'm traveling from Chicago to LA and San Francisco like every other week. How do I balance this? And just when I was about to shut down my side hustle, the pandemic hit. And since there's no events, there's no Ticketmaster team members. And that kicked me into full gear, and I went full-time about 6 years ago.

Very nice. Uh, there, there are a lot of stories that came out of COVID of people, uh, pivoting. Uh, either they were in business and had to change their model, or people took the opportunity like you to go out on your own full-time. So what was that transition like?

I never thought I was going to be able to do it on my own. So, the kick to go do it gave me the challenge that I'm going to show you and, oh my God, I now have to do this and I had no notice. So, now what? And it gave me the ability first to start scaling up and scaling up and scaling up. And then I realized I built something I hate.

Tell me more.

So it started where I was just trying to get in more hours, right? And getting in more hours meant that I'm filling up my entire calendar, and I was booked. I was booked within a week and a half because all my clients, I'd put all their projects on hold. So I went from, oh, I'm out of a job, to, oh, I have more than 60 hours in a week that I can fill with billable hours. This is great. Then I realized, wait a minute, I just built myself a job.

I don't like that. 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. It was hard to realize that. So, I started bringing in team members and started doing scalable processes and what do we do and how do we make this really work. Then I realized, you know what, I'm just not feeling that either. I didn't realize that we have the permission to build the business that we love.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't— I didn't believe that that could be true. And so I actually rebuilt my entire business based around what we do really well and basically systematized that, put that together into a package. And it feels really good. It feels good to watch my clients succeed. It feels good to watch all these amazing things come to life that I thought could be possible, but I didn't know I had the permission to go do.

That's, that's very interesting. Okay, so were you working with the same target customer in 2000 that you are now?

I started off— change that— well, so in the beginning, I had clients that were in real estate. I had clients that were Property Management, I had clients that were like all over the board in tech, that were in printing, that were in— you name it, in every single industry. And so everything I would do for them was so different, there wasn't any way to bring in a team, right? And so I realized, okay, we have to niche down because I can't bring in a team who's going to be an expert in real estate like I would be, right? I have my account. I'm not going to be able to— right, like, I'm not going to be able to bring in someone who's an expert in this printing technology I'm the expert here, right? So how do I make sure I'm staying in a lane where I can bring people in and train them up to be the expert that I am in that so that they can complement my skill set? And that was the first big change that had to happen.

I, I'm curious what— talking about that, that mindset shift, because was there something external that, that gave you that insight of like, oh, I don't have to do it this way?

So I was having some health challenges. And one of the health challenges was that I was getting migraines.

But— Working 60 hours a week was doing that to you?

Well, the migraines weren't actually coming from that. The team at Mayo thought that I was stuck in a migraine cycle. So they started, they said, we have a cure for that, let's start giving you Botox. So the first one was 26 injections around my head.

Okay.

It started an 11-month migraine.

Oh geez.

It didn't end. Then it got to an ice pick headache where, I don't know if you've ever had that, it is the worst experience ever.

It sounds horrid.

It's horrible. Rush to the hospital because they aren't sure, is there an aneurysm, is there not? Is something wrong? I'm not a girl to go to the hospital for a headache. Like, that just sounds stupid, right? But nope, this is where it was. And so doing all of these things, and just, it was so hard on my body. And no matter what, I kept working. I kept going to work. I kept showing up. I kept having client calls. I kept doing all the deliverables. And I was like, I need to bring in somebody else, but I can't do it. I can't teach anybody successfully, how to do all the different things that I have knowledge in because I've worked in those industries, right? So it was my, let me throw this at the wall and test it and try it and let's see how this works.

And what specifically was the pivot? So, so you remade your business, specifically what did you do?

I said, okay, we are going to stop working with the clients or slow down their workload that do not fit something that I can train and teach and that I know I am the absolute expert in. Okay. And so the real estate clients started going away. I didn't fight to keep them. We offboarded a few of our tech clients in the printing industry, and then we offboarded a few other clients. And we were growing the business in the, okay, I just want to work with consultants. I'm really good at this. I am really great. Let's keep showing them results. And once we started showing the results in this industry and that it's repeatable, it just kept coming.

So, what, what, why did you pick consultants as your target customer? What, what was it about it that, that led you there?

Well, I hired a consultant. And when I asked— or we were looking to hire a consultant. And when I asked what they did, I had no idea what they were talking about. I was like sitting there thinking, and I was like, I think he knows what he's talking about. But I have no idea what this man is saying.

You hired him not knowing what he did?

Well, I almost hired him. Okay. Like, I had a general idea. But like, him explaining his value every single time we hopped on a call, he had to do it again and again and again. I was like, okay, well, let me call somebody else. So I called somebody else. We started having these conversations and it's the same thing. And I realized, you know, this is a problem we're really good at solving. If someone can't articulate what it is that they do, they don't have a compelling offer, how are they going to get clients?

Right.

And if every conversation is the same freaking call, wait, what do you do again? Wait, how? I don't understand. Can you break that down for me? I have a really great methodology on solving that. So let's go do that.

So I'm going to recap what you said. You had a side hustle. COVID forced a pivot. You decided to go all in. Uh, got real busy and realized, uh, you had created a, a job for yourself. Um, you brought on a team to help offload some of the work from you, um, and then determined that even that really wasn't what you wanted, that you had permission to make the business what you wanted, and then identified the problem that you were going to solve, which was to help consultants define their message, and pivoted into that by letting the— legacy clients, if you will, kind of just go away and leaning into your target market. Did I summarize that correctly? Absolutely. Okay. I think that's brilliant because you went through a lot of iterations there and some of them, you know, you were forced upon you, but there's also a lot of humility in being able to go backwards. I don't know if you actually went backwards, like financially, but to undo what you'd done in that sense, to go forward to what you want. And I think your story is illustrative to others that find themselves in a situation of I'm working really hard. I might be making money, but I really don't like what I do. Because that's— I talk a lot about that. Like, you build the business that serves what you want, not the other way around. Making that transition from employee mindset to business owner mindset is a challenge, and a lot of people don't make the leap.

Well, so I grew up in the world where my dad, his dad, everyone in the family has their own business. So there is a level of ownership that you take when you grow up in a family business, right? There is a level of ownership when you go work for your parents. Like, Under Armour called, I would go running to the middle of Baltimore in the worst part of town, and Hull Street was terrible at that time, to pick up a disc of art that had to be printed the next morning. It could be 3 o'clock in the morning and I did this. And yes, single woman going to drive to go do this is the dumbest thing ever. But that is the level of ownership that you take when you own a business, right? And so every job that I had after that, I couldn't understand the employee mindset because I treated it as my own.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly working in a family business is a different dynamic than being an employee for Ticketmaster, for instance. But yeah, once you have that level of commitment, it's hard to unlearn it. One of my biggest challenges has been realizing that, you know, non-family employees are never going to have that level of commitment. And being okay with it. You know, there was a long period of time where I was like, man, why don't they care as much as I do? And then, you know, some colleagues said, well, dumbass, they're never going to have that because it's not theirs. And I'm like, oh yeah, you're right, that expectation is unreasonable. So how, you know, through this pivot, was there a financial challenge in that as well, like doing that pivot. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

So I think every time you make a pivot like that, there is that financial challenge and you start questioning, what am I going to do? How am I going to do it? How do we make this work? And the biggest key is I have yet to let myself down. I've never let myself down. I have the drive that if we get in 5 new clients tomorrow, okay, my workload's going to be 3 AM to 7 PM, 7 days a week, and I'm fine with that until I can bring in more people and train them. And I'm okay with that. And knowing that, knowing that I could actually bet on myself, was probably the most calming part of it. And every single morning I start with a meditation to actually calm myself down, get grounded And then say this to myself, right? There's nothing I can't do. There's nothing I can't do. No matter what that challenge is, there's nothing I can't do.

I love that. Yeah, I think all entrepreneurs, creative or otherwise, come to the table with that mindset of like, I'm going to bet on myself. I'm tired of making somebody else money. I can do this better than they can. Well, you know, those kind of things.

Well, you know, my stupid story is that I was so tired of working for the man, I thought going to Ticketmaster was me stopping working for the man. And that was even more the man than anything.

You mean you thought working for your parents in your family business was working for the man?

Oh, no. I had a few corporate gigs before that, and it was—

So why did you think—

I was like, okay.

Why did you think Ticketmaster was different?

Music! Isn't music the ultimate, like, revolution? Like, it just felt that way. It felt like it could be, yeah, we're gonna, you know, if Pearl Jam can like us again, then yes, we're all right and we're moving things forward. And then I took a step back and I realized, hey, while they gave me the best access ever, like, my first year I saw 275 different artists, and that felt like a level of freedom.

Right.

I'm not the one profiting. They don't give, right, anything like promotions. They don't let people really move up that ladder. That isn't how it worked.

Yeah. Hey creatives, Delaina Ealy here. I have a question for you. If you could pay yourself more, why aren't you doing it? For real. S-Corp is an option for you, the creative entrepreneur, to move your business to the next level to pay yourself more, and to cut your tax savings down. Yeah, less money to the IRS. We want that, right? So why haven't you done it yet? What's going on? The reality is you probably have 50,000 questions in your brain. You don't know which way is up and down, and you're still too busy to do all those things plus also create, right? Well, the good thing for you is that Core Group is actually the place to be to get that S corp election rolling. Yeah. We have an assessment. Let's see if you qualify. Come chat with me. Core Group, turning passion into profit.

Well, we're 20 minutes into this conversation, and I really haven't discerned what the music tie-in is. So help me with that.

So my background is all guitars and signed guitars. When you have a name like Rockstar and Moon as your marketing agency and you can't play, it just becomes really good jewelry for your wall.

Okay, so you're not a musician?

I'm not a musician. I can't play, but I'm good at branding.

That's fascinating. Okay, I love that. So it was really your—

I'm a girl who—

It was your experience with—

I love live music.

Okay, so it was your experience with Ticketmaster that drove the name?

Oh, no, no.

Oh, no.

Okay. So what drove the name is I, after my parents' business closed, and it was the recession, and it was 2010, no one's hiring me, they won't even interview me. And so I'm sitting out back of a small apartment that I had rented that was only supposed to be my weekend apartment. But now this is my full-time residence. It was right behind the Bottle and Cork, which is the greatest rock and roll bar on Dewey Beach. And I'm hearing some great bands, I'm staring up at the moon and the stars, and I was like, okay, I have been called a rock star by every single one of my clients because I will always go over and above. So how do I tie in rock star? And I'm staring up at the moon and I was like, okay, the stars and the moon and rock star, okay, this fits together, and here we go.

Yeah. Yes. I, you know, rock star has a certain connotation to it. You know, like there's a certain expectation, a certain level. Like, I remember when we— when I first joined Entrepreneurs Organization, that was kind of the moniker or the standard that we used was like it was a rock star event, which was kind of a label to define what the experience was, um, which when you say Rockstar, everybody knows what that is, right, without really being able to describe it, um, which is powerful marketing, honestly. I mean, that, you know, kudos to you. Okay, so now that you've, you've refined the target market, tell me what your, your pricing model, your service model looks like? How did you evolve into that?

So what we have done in October, we changed the game and we productized what I do in my done-for-you clients. So previously we had just the retainer model and we would take a client on and we work a certain number of projects or hours or things in that retainer and go deliver. And then we realized, you know, there's a large part of the market that I want to be able to hit that we're not. And these are the smaller consultancies, and they can't necessarily afford a retainer for somebody to go off and do things, and they want to be able to have their hand in it, and they want to be able to do some of it themselves. So we took that, we packaged it as the Profit Multiplier, and we've created a done-with-you program as well as a done-for-you or a DIY program. So the DIY program is just that intro. It's somebody who's ready to go. It has AI built in. Ready to Roll, if you are like a solopreneur and you're ready to go, it's a one-time fee and you're off and running. For the Done With You, that's a 12-month program, and our intent is the first 12 weeks we have that intensive. Every week we're meeting, we're getting things done, we're pushing, and we're getting stuff out the door, we're getting you wins. And then we work after that— how do we optimize, what do we optimize for the rest of the year— and really being able to bring that back and make sure that we're helping to get them really good wins and then capitalize off of that.

So that's a 12-year, a 12-year, 12-month commitment.

A 12-month commitment for the Done With You. It is, we assume the program that's DIY and AI is done within 90 days.

And so do you require payment upfront on that? Or is it? Yes. Okay. That's brilliant. I'm curious what It sounds like you were in the traditional marketing retainer hourly model. What prompted you to pivot? So you did that in October, so like 6 months ago. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. So why did you make that pivot? What insight did you have that led to that change?

I think the biggest key is nobody wants to pay for marketing. Nobody finds that as a value. They aren't excited to say, yes, let me get my marketing going. And there are so many agencies that are out there, and how do you differentiate, and what are you differentiating? And we do so much more for our clients than just marketing. We bring in the tech, we bring in automation, we help their business, we help them repackage as much as humanly possible, we help them on the ops side of things as well. And I don't think marketing agency describes the things that we truly do. It's a part of it, but it's so much bigger. And so when we were looking at this and what we were including, it was really hard to say, okay, I want to just stay here in the world of AI with AI coming and all the things that— like, we're going to be so marginalized if we do this. But if we come up and we start talking outcome first, what you're going to get, then we build a package around it, a plan. We have all of this together so that it fits for the NIST, like for the consultants, it fits for everything that is that they're looking to do and that they're looking to solve and that they actually need the guidance on. It's that key that's missing. If you want us to do some of your deliverables, great, we can do that. We can have that conversation, but No one wants to pay for the deliverables when they all have access to ChatGPT or something, right? So how do we make sure that we're setting them up for success with that if they so choose to go that route before they have to hire a marketing person in-house?

Yeah, I've had a lot of conversations on this show and with our clients. We had an in-person event a couple of weeks ago where we invited specific clients to join us in Oklahoma City, and we just had this conversation. And there, there seems to be a theme that I've seen where the— to summarize it, there's obviously technology disruption, but what that disruption has exposed is that the traditional agency business model, um, was flawed and that it was focused on largely the deliverables. And occasionally, you know, I'm talking about small to medium-sized businesses, not the Ogilvies of the world. You know, there was little strategy involved. Right. And, and so That actually built up a large trust deficit with the customers. You said no one wants to buy marketing. I don't think that's true. I think they don't want to be sold. You know, if I heard from an agency, well, you know, this is a long-term play, you know, SEO. Content, podcasting, what, you know, whatever is, you know, well, you know, this is a long-term play. And what that, what I came to understand that as is I'm not going to be around whenever this could help you. So I don't really have any problem making that commitment, uh, because I know that, uh, more than likely based on industry averages, you're going to change in, in 2 years and I'm going to be gone. And there's this tremendous disconnect between marketing agencies and business owners. Like, I'm done with that. Like, I'm— So what are your thoughts on that? What's your perspective?

You know, we've had so many clients come to us who have worked with other agencies. And the first set of things that we run into are weird roadblocks. We had clients that didn't own their own domain. Their old agency did.

That's wacky.

Like, blows your mind, doesn't it?

You mean the actual domain name? They did not own—

They own the domain. They owned the email. Now, if this person wanted to leave them, they could not. Wow. Yeah. Happens a lot. This is not the first time we heard it. The first time we heard it, like, you had to pick my jaw off the ground. The second time, it's like, okay, we have a process for this. Let's just fix this. Now the next problem and the hurdle that we always hear is, well, our agency didn't let us take any of the old files, so we are starting from scratch. What the hell? Like, this is terrible. How in the world do we allow this to happen? Why would we want to put our clients at a disadvantage when they choose to leave? They chose to leave for some reason. Now we want to say, okay, well, have a good day.

I think it's exactly what we just talked about. If the industry standard is I only retain 50% clients a year, then I want to tie them in as much as I can. And it's reactionary. It's actually solving the wrong problem.

Yep. And if we gave them everything— so when my clients leave, I give them everything it is that we've created for them. I give them the brand guides. I give them their logos in every different format we have. I give them the templates we've created. You name it, they can have it, right? Because I want them to go off and be successful. I am expecting they're still going to hit the same goals that we had the month before.

So do clients— well, I know it may be premature if you only pivoted this 6 months ago, but do you, do you intend that clients would work beyond the 12 months, or is that not necessary?

So we have clients. So the pivot is just that we systematize this so that we have that done with you as well as the DIY programs. The Done For You program has always been here. Our clients stay on retainers and then they choose really how long they want to stay with us. Most of my clients have been with me for a really long time. I think we're 4 years now. And yes, I have— this is the second pivot. So the first pivot was, okay, no more real estate clients, no more clients that are in Bitcoin, no more clients that are here. Like, let's just do what we do really well. No more treehouse clients. Like just what we do really well, just B2B consultants. And so that was the first round. And then the second round is where I'm working on— so once you get through and we finish this, what's the right thing for you? What do you need? And then being able to build towards that or recommend them to X, Y, and Z. If it's that they need somebody internal, we can make recommendations, we can help them interview, we can help put all the processes and pieces in place for them.

So to clarify, you didn't change— well, I'm making an assumption. Okay, so you, in October, you pivoted so that you're not doing a retainer model. It is a, it's a menu of services for a fixed fee.

Majority of all new business, yes. The retainer clients that I still have, we're going to keep those.

Okay, so you're still getting them great results. Okay, yeah. So, so to clarify, you, you didn't force the change on the existing clients. It was just for new clients. Yeah, I can tell you that's one of the things that we've struggled with from a business perspective is, you know, we identified the target market of creatives 3 years ago, and we have made so many mistakes. But one of the issues has been like, okay, what do we do with all of the clients that we have that we've accumulated over 28— well, at that time, it would have been 26 years— that aren't creatives, right? And what we decided, which I don't know is the correct— it's probably a fear thing. Of like, well, we'll just keep them until they go away on their own. Like, we'll keep doing what we were doing. We're just not going to go pursue anybody that's not in our target market. But that's caused problems, you know, one of which is, okay, they might be priced differently. They might have a slightly different service offering. They, they, it, it potentially limits our capacity to optimize for our target market in the way we do things internally, the processes that we do. And, you know, 3 years into it, I'm honestly thinking about— I hope nobody listens to this— I'm thinking about selling them. And I don't know, that seems kind of radical to me. But it kind of speaks to the point of like, sometimes when you pivot or you're trying something new, you kind of keep a foot in both camps, and that seems more safe. But I don't know that it necessarily is. I don't know.

I have an idea for you.

Okay.

Hey, so anybody who's listening right now, who's thinking about jumping in and having their own business should probably reach out. And if they want to help start a business, that would be a business you guys could co-own, or there could be something, there could be something fun there.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think there would be any problem. There's thousands of accountants out there that would buy the business. Honestly, you talk about making the shift from employee mindset to business owner. There's a second evolution that I just really arrived at in the last year. And most— I don't say this out of hubris, and I don't mean it to sound braggadocious, but that second evolution is to that as of an investor. And, and you start looking at your financial resources and say, is this where I would invest my money? Like, if I, if I had $100,000 sitting in the bank and I'm looking, what do I invest it in? Um, looking at your business that way, would I put another $100,000 into this business? Does that make financial sense that I'm going to get a return on that money that I would if I went and invested it in the stock market. Like, you know, that shift requires— and what was the hangup for me was requires you to become somewhat emotionally detached from the business, which is really, really hard to do as an entrepreneur because so much of your identity is in the business. And, you know, if it's successful, you're successful. If it fails, you fail. You know, like that detachment of identity to be able to look at your business objectively and say, you know what, I don't know as it sits that I would put money into this. Like, I think I should invest it somewhere else.

I think if we take a look at it though, I don't think it's just investing time. I think it's investing energy. And 100%. And like, do you have brainpower to invest in it? And like, what does that balance sheet look like?

100%. No, absolutely. It's— is it— my favorite phrase is, is the juice worth the squeeze? And that's a question that you evolve to. I mean, you can if you choose to, but most people don't, because I think that emotional attachment to the business is real. I have another show that I produce called The Chris Project, and on that show, we talk about entrepreneurial mental health and mindset. And one of the guests I had on there was a doctor of psychology, and he referenced a study of male entrepreneurs. I don't know that the same results would happen with women, but with male entrepreneurs, they did MRIs of them showing them pictures of their business and various other things. And the part of the brain that lit up for these male entrepreneurs when they showed them pictures of their business was the same part of the brain that showed up when they showed them pictures of their children. And so when an entrepreneur says, this is my baby, that's real. It's not a turn of phrase. It's actually what they feel.

I think, you know, there's a level of identity that every person has when they start right? It's whether you're working in a business for someone else or you're working for yourself. And one of the things that I've seen over the years is men are also very identity-driven by what their job is and their role in the world.

100%.

And so, in the pandemic, we watched everyone, every male who lost their job kind of lose that identity.

Mm-hmm.

What's interesting to me is we work with a lot of investment bankers and we work with firms that do health planning exits. And what's interesting to me to hear is that it is the business owner who is very tied to the business, who's ready to sell. The wife says, okay, let's push this, let's go. Move to Florida. Right? Let's move to Florida. It's great. But it's that emotional attachment as to who am I going to be after this? That keeps them in the game even though they don't want to do it.

100%. That's why they don't retire, because they don't know what else they are. Like, what would I do? Right? Yeah, same thing.

And there's only so much golf to play.

Exactly. And it's kind of anecdotal, but, you know, how many people I've heard of that, you know, men that retire, not necessarily business owners, but like they retire and then 6 months later they're dead. You know, it's like, it's— I don't know that there's hard science or data on that, but like, men truly have to have a purpose in their work. That's just the way they're wired. You know, they don't have the maternal instinct. They don't have any of that connect with people instinct. So it's about doing, unfortunately. And that's Yeah. Rachel, I think we could have this conversation for a lot longer than time allows, but how do people find out more about you and Rockstar Moon?

You can find me online at RachelMinyon.com. And you can find out all about—

Do you own that domain?

Yeah, of course I do. No marketing agency needed. And you can find all about Rockstar Moon at RockstarMoon.com.

Perfect. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, hit that little button, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear, and I'll get rid of Rachel. Until next time, ta-ta for now.