How Do Creatives Make a Living While Pursuing Their Art? | Brent Lindstrom

Granted, when you become a self-published author and an independent filmmaker, especially in the beginning, there's not going to be a lot of money in that. I just wanted to find a way that I could sustain myself, my family, and my art without having to ask permission.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into Into Profit. I am your host Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Jupiter, Florida. That's a great name. I, I don't know why you would name your, your town after a, a Roman god or a planet, but, uh, congratulations. Thanks for listening. Joining me today, Brent Lindstrom of Light Minded Arts. Brent, welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me on here. I look forward to talking with you.

Have you ever been to Jupiter, Florida?

I have not been to Jupiter, Florida. I did not even know it existed until you just mentioned it.

And I'm assuming you've never been to the planet Jupiter because no one has, unless you were doing it secretly.

You know, there's people who think I might be from there, but I don't know. My head's always in the clouds.

So, yes, who knows? Interesting, interesting secret. When I was a child, I was in second grade, I was fascinated with Carl Sagan and, um, Cosmos and all that. Uh, and when people asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up? I, I answered, I want to be an astrophysicist. And they were like, hmm, yeah, okay. Uh, anyway, I didn't go that path. I'm still fascinated by astronomy. Why don't, Brent, you shut me up and tell me, uh, what you do there at Light-Minded Arts?

Okay, so Light-Minded Arts is a company that I created. It is a company that I wanted to build up to house all of my creative projects. So I am originally from the construction industry. I built my life around building homes for people, and at some point there, I decided I want to become a writer. And once I got fully addicted to that and was learning my craft there, I said, you know what, writing's not enough. I want to become a filmmaker. And so I started learning all the craft involved in becoming a filmmaker also. And, and so rather than just starting a company based off of me, my author name, I said, I'm going to start a production company and house all my creative works in it. And I'm going to call that Light Minded Arts. And kind of a play on words, you know, because with movies you're basically painting with light. So light there and then light-minded because I don't really take myself all that seriously. And so why not just have a little bit of fun with it? So yeah, Light-Minded Arts is my company. I'm based out of Utah and it's, it's where I, it's where I experiment with my imagination and see if anybody else wants to enjoy it along with me.

That— okay, you've already intrigued me twice, uh, once in the green room, uh, now on the show. Okay, let's, let's unpack this a minute.

Sure.

Why did you get into construction?

Okay, so I grew up in the construction field, so when I was 13 years old, I I started on a framing crew and started doing that during the summers full-time. And, well, I did the framing crew for one year, then another year I did finish carpentry as a hod tender for brick. You know, I went through all the trades and eventually ended up joining the family business while I was going to college for my finance degree. Actually, it was after that. I was building homes to put myself through college, but then I joined the family business where I became a superintendent for some larger construction sites and eventually got into real estate development through that family company. And that was also the time when I was experimenting with writing, because when you start with a family business, you know, they start you from the ground up. And at the time, I wasn't making any money doing it. And so I said, you know what, there's potential for me here. My true goal at the time was actually to go work on Wall Street, become a CFA, a Certified Financial Analyst. And so that's what I was going to school for. And at the time I just thought, you know, I need a little extra side income. So that's when I started writing and that's when I got addicted to writing and said, you know what? I'm going to keep Wall Street in my back pocket as sort of a hobby. I'm going to learn everything about the real estate industry, the— where I'm in right now, so that I can have that as a fallback. But I'm going to create a financially stable future for me. And then in 10 years, I'm going to completely change my career, go into writing and filmmaking as my full-time job, but I need to use these other skills that I've developed along the way to be financially independent because I didn't want to be a struggling artist. Okay, did that answer your question?

No, it did.

And I started meandering around there and then I think I forgot what, what he even asked me.

And then, and then the fact that you had a finance background kind of answers the first question of why are you trading natural gas futures. So that, that kind of, uh, belays that a little. Uh, okay, so let me recap that, make sure I got it right. You, you realize that construction was not it from a, you know, like a passion standpoint, like, but you did see it as a way to make money to support your creative endeavors. Yes. And you reached that level of financial security to then migrate and be in the creative space full-time. Is that—

Yeah. Yeah. And like when I first started writing and got addicted to it, I said, you know what, because I want to do this full-time, I'm going to put together a plan. That will help me achieve this. And so that's when I decided, you know what, a 10-year plan sounds achievable. In 10 years, I should be able to do two things. I should be able to level up my craft in my storytelling abilities, and I should be able to figure out how to become financially independent. And so I started working on those two things concurrently while I was working in the construction field. And I was fortunate enough to have some good mentors in the family business for that end. And then for the Wall Street end, which I did as a hobby, because I wanted to diversify and have multiple streams of income, I worked really hard at learning that and spent a lot of free time studying, researching, and practicing things that would help me achieve those goals.

So did you meet your 10-year plan, or did you, did you do it quicker than that?

Uh, I did meet it. I, I actually revised it about halfway through because the filmmaking part of it came after I'd already decided to become a full-time writer. And once I decided I wanted to be an independent filmmaker also, I realized, you know what, making movies is a lot more expensive than writing books. And so I basically had to triple my net income potential. And so, yeah, I changed that about halfway through and I was still able to meet that projection, which was really helpful because, yeah, making movies is not a cheap endeavor.

No, no, it is not. So, when did you launch Light-Minded Arts?

So, I actually launched this At the very beginning, January 1st of 2025.

Okay, so you're a year in.

I am a year in.

Um, how is it going?

You know, it's going great. I've got 3 books which are published, uh, under my name. I've written others under other names, but yeah, I've got one called One for the Money, Two for the Soul, which is just a really fun, zany adventure ride. Just, just, just super fun. And actually, if your, if your guests want to get a copy of that, they're welcome to jump over onto my website and just fill out the contact form and mention your podcast, and I'll send them a free ebook just so they can see my style.

Thank you.

But also, I've got one called Swing Low, The Hangman of the Woods, which is more of a coming-of-age story. And then I've got one called Hard-Boiled Cabbage. And depending on when this gets published or when you're publishing this, it comes out March 2nd. And so that one's going to be a fantasy noir series. So it's the first book in a 6-book series. So that one is going to be pretty fun too.

Okay. And, and do you have any production credits yet?

Production credits? No, I do not. But I've been producing short films, so I've got a couple of them that I've been doing on my website— or not on my website. You can find them on my website, but they're also on YouTube. But I've been doing short films, basically practicing the craft. I'm producing a short film that's probably going to be more long version. It's going to be starting this spring, but that one's an adaptation of Moby Dick's The Sermon. I don't know if you've read Moby Dick or if you've not recently, but yeah, there's a sermon in there by a guy named Father Maple, and he just gives an awesome delivery of this sermon. And so I decided to do my own adaptation of that. So I'm going to be doing that, and that one I am going to try to circulate to the film festivals once I get it done. And then I'm also under development on some property that is going to house my official studio. So then I'm going to— got some screenplays that I've been writing and I'm going to start filming those as soon as I get through all the red tape with the city and get that built.

Fascinating. Okay, so on these productions that you're— the short films and the sermon, are you doing the screenwriting as well?

Yeah, yeah, I'm doing the screenwriting. I'm the producer, the director. And, you know, I, I do hire out for a lot of the acting and help with, you know, the, the camerawork, the grip, all the things like that. But yeah, I, I like to involve just some of the local people around here to help me out when I do some of those sorts of things. And luckily, I've got a couple of colleges nearby. I've got Brigham Young University and UVU that down here, which have film classes in them. And so there's a lot of students there that are willing to help on projects like these. But there's also some more established people around here too that like working on film. And so, yeah, there's just a community of people around here that I'm able to bring in and have help me with things like this.

Okay. So the burning question in my mind is Because I'll be honest, this is— you're a unicorn. I've never found somebody that went this route to, I guess, fulfill their passion in the arts where they became financially capable before. You didn't use your art to earn the income for your art. Um, I, I'm curious what translated. So you, you're in the construction business, you have finance background. How did that shape how— what you did a year ago starting out with Light-Minded Arts?

Well, I think for me, like, Money has always been a passion of mine. I've always wanted to own my own businesses and basically have control over my own destiny. I've, I've always had that entrepreneurial mindset. And a lot of what I've done has been working with other people on their projects. So like the family company, you know, I, I am eternally grateful to the lessons that taught me on real estate development and construction and things like that. And I've become incredibly handy on that. I mean, I'm a pretty good carpenter myself, and I love expressing myself through that. And even the house I build is a kind of a work of art in itself. But I've always liked the idea of being able to control my own future, my own destiny. And a lot of what I've heard in the artistic fields, especially if you're going the traditional routes for say book publishing, uh, you, if you're able to get those deals, you still have editors there who want to maybe control things a little bit, maybe make things a little more marketable. And for me, I want to tell the stories I want to tell. I want them to still be incredibly entertaining, but I didn't want anyone telling me what to write or how to change it. Uh, if I felt like the story was good the way I had it, But also when it comes to the movie industry, I mean, I love being able to help other people on their projects, but at the same time, I don't want anyone telling me what movies I can and can't make. And so finding a way to use my financial background to basically tell the stories that I want to tell it just made more sense to me to encapsulate all of my financing, my art and everything into a business that had— that was self-sustaining so that I could tell those stories I want to end. And granted, when you become a self-published author and an independent filmmaker, especially in the beginning, there's not going to be a lot of money in that. And so, so I just wanted to find a way that I could sustain myself, my family, and my art without having to ask permission.

Yes, because I think that's the thing that creatives— I use that term very broadly— struggle with, is, is how to hold that passion, that artistic integrity, that, you know, doing what lights their fire and the ability to make money and seeing that not as a trade-off of like, I can do either or, but how can I do both? Right, right. I'm gonna ask this question and I do not want it to sound the wrong way, but I wanna clarify something. Sure. Did you create a business through your construction and finance backgrounds to fund your hobby, or is the artistic endeavor profitable in and of itself?

All right, that's kind of— that's a great question, and it's a question that I had to ask myself when I put together that 10-year plan. And I created my financial businesses to support basically the hobby of art, and the idea was that eventually the art would be able to sustain itself but I knew that it wouldn't in the very beginning. So at this time, Light-Minded Arts is not self-sustaining. Light-Minded Arts needs a constant infusion from me, from my personal financial sources otherwise, to actually keep it afloat. And so, yeah, it's, it's definitely— I definitely created everything to help support that. And eventually, though, I hope that people will start reading my works and say, wow, yeah, I actually like his style. And maybe that'll help create a following. And same thing with my movies when those start coming out is, yeah, maybe they'll still be independent films and a lot of those don't make a ton of money, but I'd love to be able to find an audience for those and eventually make that and of it self-sustaining also. So yeah, it, it's definitely supporting the hobby, but the hobby hopefully will one day become a profit center in itself too.

Well, that's what I was trying to get at, is, is that, you know, the, the, the lessons, the profitability lessons that you learned outside of art, have you been able to incorporate those into the business of art. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy, and if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Yeah, so some of it I've been able to incorporate it and some of it I'm still working on incorporating. One of the things that I've learned as a contractor and real estate developer is that you do need to establish, I guess, a little bit of what you'd call street cred. It helps when you're trying to get financing. It helps when you're trying to find customers. It provides a degree of legitimacy. So when I bring that into my Light-Minded Arts, I need to find a way to build a little street cred. I need to— which is why I actually offered your audience that one book that I did for free, because I need to develop street cred with an audience. I need to find people who value what I do, and it will help with financing. If I need financing for a movie in the future, it'll help just establish me as a legitimate creative. And that's one of the reasons that I also have a YouTube channel. I also have a podcast. I'm helping other creatives find basically ways to be profitable, even if their art isn't sustaining that yet. So yeah, I'm, I'm I'm working on taking lessons that I've learned in the construction field and applying them to Light-Minded Arts to help. And that's one way that I'm doing that.

Yeah. Again, this is not a criticism at all. It is an observation is that because you financially— because you financially don't need the art to perform. Yeah, uh, because you have other financial assets. How— obviously it's given you tremendous freedom, right? Like, you can do what you want.

Yeah.

Um, how, how has that, uh, financial freedom maybe hindered you in the creative?

I would— that's a good question. How has it hindered me?

That's why I asked it, because it was a good question.

No, it's a great question and it makes me think a little bit. Let me answer that, I guess, in a couple of ways.

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First is what is the potential way it could that I've been thinking about that I need to always be mindful of so that I don't fall into that trap. And that trap would be that I create art that is not entertaining. It's, it's maybe, it maybe excites me, but it's not something that an audience would value. And that is definitely a trap that I work really hard to try to avoid because there's a lot of Okay. So have you read the book Save the Cat? Yes, I have. Okay. So for any of your audience who maybe doesn't know about Save the Cat, Save the Cat is written by Blake Snyder. He goes through and he talks about all of the— was it Blake Snyder? I think it was Blake Snyder. He goes through and he talks about how to break down a screenplay. And he says by page, whatever you need to have this by page, whatever you need to have this. And he goes down very formulaic. And you go onto Amazon or you go onto any forum that talks about this, and you're gonna find a whole bunch of people on there who say, I do not want to be confined to this structure. I do not want to be confined to one way of telling a story. I want to be able to tell the story I want. And basically what they're saying is, is they're not writing stories that follow this format that he says is a very industry standard format. And the problem with that is, is they— and maybe they're going to be able to tell a story that's entertaining still, but let's just— and I'm not saying they're wrong either, but I'm not saying they're right either, because they're wanting to tell a story that has no rules. And storytelling is it's full of rules, it's full of beats that need to be adhered to for the different genres that you're trying to address. And if you're just trying to go way off into left field and tell your own style of artistic story, there's a chance that it might be artistic, there's a chance that it might be groundbreaking, but there's a very big chance that it's never going to find an audience. And I think that's— the— that's the trap that I'm always keeping in the back of my mind is, can I tell a story my way but still tell it in a way that will engage an audience, that will be popular, that will be entertaining? And so, yeah, I'm always trying to work on my craft. I'm always trying to, uh, have professional editors review all of my works. And so, yeah, that is one area, a trap or thing that could probably hinder me if I wasn't cognizant of that.

Yeah. I think of my daughter is a figurative oil painter and instructor of that art by profession. And, uh, when she started it, um, it, it was this, you know, dad conversation of like, okay, you're gonna go out and do this, how are you going to actually make a living around it? And she got frustrated to the point where she said, I don't know, Dad, I'm just going to paint what I want to paint, right? Which is, to your point, like, yeah, you, you, you can certainly do that, but there's no guarantee that anybody's going to pay you for it, Right, right. Um, and when I, I just finished my novella, it's, it's ready to go to editing. Uh, I, I purchased, uh, Save the Cat for Novels. It wasn't the same author, it was a derivative. Um, but I remember in that book she was talking about writers, uh, classifying it as formulaic, like, you know, and that's what the resistance to it was. Right. But the reality is that if you're going to be commercial with any art, you have to find a buyer. And it may be, you know, one patron like Michelangelo and, you know, or, you know, where you have one very wealthy person that's willing to pay you for what you do because it's so novel and so wild, right? But for most of us that are trying to slog it out with creativity and, and make money at it, it's, it's, it's really being able to accept some limitations on that creativity, um, to, to understand that Yeah, you can write a story without following all the beats, but this is the way people understand story. This is the— you know, you can't have a completely disjointed story or no one's going to be able to follow it and no one's going to read it and no one's going to enjoy it and no one's going to pay you for it. And that's what I think ultimately this podcast is about, is how do you merge those two things? Um, how do you, how do you, uh, allow yourself to be creative and follow your passion but at the same time make money at it? And I, I think the answer to that is reapplying your creativity. So like, if, if you're going to be creative for creative sake and you're just going to make what you want and to hell with everybody else, that's totally fine, right? Like, that, that's That's art, but it doesn't have a commercial intent. You, you, you, somebody may pay you for it, but that's not the reason you're making it, right? Right. Uh, if you're, if you're on the other hand trying to make money at it, it's, it's reapplying that creative energy within those kind of confines.

Well, and if you think about it, uh, when you go to college, What are you getting a degree in? You're getting it, and I don't care what, uh, what field you go into, that first, uh, 4 years is called Bachelor of Arts. So even if you're going into business, if you're going into math, if you're going into teaching, you're getting a Bachelor of Arts in that field. And so there's a degree of creativity in just about everything you pursue, but But finding that creativity, like you said, and applying it to a way to actually become financially feasible and financially— or, and, and something that resonates with a broader audience, I think is incredibly important. I was thinking of ways that you could do that when you were mentioning that, and I was thinking, well, you mentioned Michelangelo, who had basically one big client. You— there's people like Vincent van Gogh who sold only one art painting in his entire life. And, and maybe that was to his brother, someone who felt sorry for him. But he was so wild and out there at the time that he had to have a sponsor that basically supported his work while he was doing this wild, unprecedented thing. And he didn't even become popular till after he was dead. And I think that a lot of those kind of people, you know, they do shape our art today. But, you know, if you need to support yourself in your art today and if you need to be groundbreaking, try to find a way to do it within the confines of the system or find a way to support yourself by other means and then and then you don't have those restrictions. But, you know, for me, I like to, you know, combine the two. I like to look for a way to do it within more of the approved format while also having other sources that I can have that freedom. And like, to my point, like, I want to write the stories I want to write, but I'm not trying to go out there in left field and do something totally bizarre. I'm more just trying to write the stories that align with my personal values and my creative ideas. So, like, I do mostly clean fiction, and, you know, a lot of things out there aren't necessarily clean fiction anymore. You know, I, I don't like a ton of the sexual content and the profanity that you see out there, and so I want my stories to focus on things that align with my values, not preachy, but entertaining for people with similar mindsets. So, yeah, it's finding what you want to do and being creative enough to find out how to support yourself in doing that.

Yeah. And I think creativity in business goes beyond that simple paradigm, not that what we've talked about is not true, But for instance, I had somebody on the show that was talking about AI and authorship of books. And the novel approach was that they created an online AI something or other. I don't know if it was just a chatbot or what, but It was essentially to engage in the world that the novel created. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting, right? And so to me, entrepreneurship in general, you said everybody is educated in some creativity. I think we're all creative. I think I lead with that in my book. I believe that we are a reflection of our creator and therefore by nature are creative, everyone. And I think that the entrepreneur in, in general is a problem solver. That's, that's what they do. They see a problem, they fix it, uh, and get compensated for that solution, right? And so, but almost all creative, almost all entrepreneurial endeavor is creative by nature. Like, that's what problem solving is. It's, it's coming up with a novel solution that hasn't been created before to, uh, fix a problem. Now, it might be a tweak, it might not be completely new, it may just be an iteration of something that's already been tried before. But I, I think, you know, like that woman talking about creating an immersive experience for a book, that's, that's a novel thing. Like, it, it's, it's I'm not just saying we have to produce something that someone will buy. Yeah, that's table stakes. Like, yes, we have to do that. But is there a way to take your creativity and apply it to solving a problem that no one solved yet?

Yeah, when you mentioned that they did that with their book, I did something similar with one of my books. I was out there like, you know what? I want to make a YouTube video or a podcast that basically lets people know a little bit about one of my books. And so I actually uploaded my book onto an AI platform and I customized a kind of like one of those chatbots to it. And basically I was able to interview my character and have him give me responses back in his voice. And I was able to do a podcast interview of my own character in the book. And, you know, I was able to have it be in his voice. And, you know, it was— it's amazing the things that you can do, and they're fun. But, you know, it's— that was just a fun—

yeah. And I'm sitting here, as I'm sitting here thinking, I, I was a huge fan of the Choose Your Own Adventure books when I was—

yeah.

Um, and, you know, that's— that is actually what entrepreneurship is. Is that you get to choose your adventure. Yeah. Um, and, uh, but, but I was thinking, you know, around another iteration of this is like creating a game around— it wouldn't even have to be digital. I mean, you could do a very, uh, a digital one very easy where like alternative endings, like this is, this is how this goes, or you kind of have the reader has more choice in how the story goes. Or it could be that you create a board game that is around the world that you've created and the characters that you've created. I guess what I'm saying is that the potential is limited only by your imagination.

Exactly. And there's so many tools out there now that make everything so much more accessible and easy to do nowadays.

Well, and I'm sure based on what you've described that you probably haven't, and I share this as an example, is the show on Prime Network or Prime Studios that derived from the video game Fallout. I'm assuming that you haven't seen it, which is fine, but that's not the point. The point is that you have a video game that was created in 1997, right? Um, and got bought by Bethesda Games, and they did several iterations of the game. And then they worked with, with MGM Studios at Prime to create this, uh, uh, series that was completely novel. It was kind of loosely based on the games, but like My point is that the, the, the creative— if, if that's where your creativity lies, is in creating story, um, then, then the, the opportunities are really limitless because you, you can, you can do anything with a good story.

Yeah, yeah, I think, and I mean, the barriers to entry, they used to be so high, and now there's no barriers to entry into all of this. But then that brings up the big question again, is how do you support yourself and your family when you're going into a field where there are no barriers, where anyone who has an idea can put something up, and to get any eyeballs on it is basically a war. I mean, you're— I mean, how many books do you think are published every single year? I mean, they're millions, probably in excess of 2 million each year. And how many movies are published each year? And those are going to be, you know, over 500,000 movies out there each year. And then not to even mention all the things on YouTube, TikTok, all the different things that just can pull people's attention away from your work. I mean, you got to go into something like this with a plan. And even if you have something that's really good and quality, you know, you got to, you got to know that you might never get noticed, at least not for quite a while.

No, I think that's, you know, I, based upon the couple of conversations that I've had in the last couple of weeks, I've really been toying with this idea that curation is the next— it's a huge need in the marketplace because of all of the noise. So think back about before the internet. If you were going to do anything of a creative nature, whether you were a musician or a moviemaker or a writer, there was a huge cost in production. Yeah. And so there was a gatekeeper in the industry that made a decision that your content was worth, worth the investment. Right. And so they were the, the curator of the content. Did they get it right all the time? No. That's not the point. The point is now where the cost of producing any kind of content is virtually zero. You know, you can produce a novel with AI and put it on Amazon in a morning, right? Yeah. Where is the human in the matrix anymore? It's not, because the algorithm's the only thing that is curating content right now. Yes. The algorithm is saying, well, you like this, so maybe you'll like this. But there's no human involved that says, you know what, this is what I am, and this is what I do, and this is the stuff that I like, and I'm curating content. I may be producing my own content as well, but the value is not in the content necessarily that I produce, but rather than my curation of the content that says, Brent, this is something that is worth your while. Because I know you, you and I, you know, we have similar values. We like the same things. There's this resonance. And so like you're going to say, oh, well, you know, it's on Casey Kasem's Top 40. I'm going to listen to it because Casey Kasem, I trust him. Right. And that whole trust and community element is completely gone from the marketplace. Like the human element is gone. And I think that's the next event. I think that's the next thing. I don't know. What are your thoughts?

Am I completely off base? Well, I know that that's a lot of what I chase at the moment. So like, yeah, the algorithms, like you said, they are the gatekeepers right now. And a lot of times the algorithms get things right, but at the same time, there's things that I'm working towards personally that help— excuse me— that would help me to maybe build some more of that trust or some of that community. And that involves things like going on to Goodreads or going on to Amazon and actually getting reviews from people. And it's those actual people's comments and testimonials that are really what make the most difference for someone like me. Because yeah, you go on to Amazon, you know, maybe, maybe something shows up on, on their algorithm. I mean, you've never heard of, you know, one of my books, like, who's this Brent Lindstrom guy? Who cares? But if you see the reviews and he's got a whole bunch of reviews on there, you can say, oh, Well, let me look at these and see. Okay, so this looks like a real person. This doesn't look like some robot or some group hired out of China to write these reviews. These look like people actually enjoyed them. Or like on Goodreads, you actually have friends on Goodreads who are recommending the books and giving reviews. You can say like, I know them and I know they like that book. I'm going to trust that book. And then, because it's really an investment, not just in money, but in time. I mean, How long does it take to read a book? For some people, they can blow through one in a day, but a lot of people takes a couple weeks to actually read through. That's a big commitment of somebody's time, right?

And I, I, I stopped reading a book, uh, last week because I was like, yeah, I don't like this. And but it was, it was one of those that, uh, came from article saying, you know, 5 best new sci-fi books or something like that. And I went and got it from the library, and I'm about a third of the way through it, and I'm like, no. But that's the thing is, I don't— if I'm looking for a new book to read, which I read a lot, you know, where do I go? And that's the problem this presents. I think, in the marketplace. And it's not just books, music, video. It's content in general. Like, what is worth my time reading or investing in? And who do I trust?

Yeah. And trust is really hard to gain. And then finding an audience is really hard to gain.

So yeah, just kind of— yeah, I, I, I, I think that— I, I think, I think the solution is somehow to turn the technology on itself. I'm not exactly sure how to do that. I'm still working through that. It's, uh, it's, it's using the technology but not for the way it was intended. Uh, Brent, how do people find out more about Light-Minded Arts and your work?

Well, they can go to my website at lightmindedarts.com. Can also visit me on YouTube, same idea, Light-Minded Arts. And if you want to listen to my podcast, it's the Light-Minded Arts Podcast. So you can find that pretty much anywhere podcasts are found. But yeah, lightmindedarts.com, that's my website. And like I mentioned earlier, mention this podcast on my contact form, and I'll send you a free copy of one of my books.

Perfect. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear, and I'll get rid of Brent. Until next time, ta-ta for now.

Thanks.