How Do Creatives Specialize and Build Better Client Relationships? | Makayla Wheeler

there's this shift that has happened where as a creative, you have to show them and prove to them the value of your work, like from an ROI perspective, which obviously makes sense as a client. But at the same time, it just puts a creative, especially a solo creative that's, you know, not an agency, they're more of a production company, in a really weird position because, you know, that's just not something that we can really do, right?

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Knox, Indiana. Thank you for listening. Uh, joining me today, Michaela Wheeler, cinematographer, director of photography. Michaela, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yes, I was just saying in the green room that I was just down in Florida, in Sarasota, um, which is where you live, uh, but you're, you're in Tampa?

No, I'm on the East Coast. So I am—

yeah, I'm on the East Coast in Melbourne, Florida, so near where the rocket launches are.

Yes. Okay, well, I, I was down there for this— this is an unsolicited plug for this event. Uh, it's called the Unconference, and Vincent Paglisi, who lives there in the Tampa area, uh, this is the second year they've put it on, but it's essentially a gathering of creatives, um, that he put together. He was a commercial photographer, and then he went into coaching, and then it kind of led to this event. And the, the concept is there are no speakers, there's no sponsors, get 100 creatives in the room and, uh, have little roundtable discussions for a couple of days, um, or go have your own conversation. But it was, it was fascinating meeting, um, all of these different creatives that did wildly different things. Um, you know, some marketers, some cinematographers, some authors, publishers, just some fascinating conversations. Um, in any case, the Unconference is happening again next year.

So that's awesome. Yeah, I'll have to check it out.

So, Michaela, uh, you are a cinematographer, but you also have a production company. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so I have been, um, running a small boutique production company. I actually started up in high school. My parents were very supportive. I started it in high school as an LLC and then went full-time with it in 2018, um, and was kind of doing more like local projects and, and working with a wide range of clientele as well. As, um, I worked on a 3-year documentary project. And, um, yeah, I've done that since 2018, so that would be about 8 years. And then I would say, um, in the past year or so, I really wanted to kind of transition more deeply into cinematography and directing as myself, as Mikayla, and not so much running and managing a business and a production company. And so I ended up working with a, a coach who's a friend of a friend in the industry. He's a director and photographer who kind of went through the same journey of like, you know, do I want to produce and, and manage a production company and all the things, or, you know, do I want to market myself more as you know, the artist, the creative who's delving deeper into cinematography and directing.

And then, you know, you're working more, um, with other production companies, other agencies, sometimes directly with clients.

It just depends. But, um, yeah, two, two kind of slightly different tracks a bit. And after some self-reflection, I really decided I kind of wanted to pursue, pursue more of the path of branding myself like Mikayla as a cinematographer and sometimes documentary director.

I love that. I recently had a client of Kors on the show, John Morgan with Rival Studios, and he's a little further along in the journey, but it was a similar path to begin with where you start out and you're kind of like trying to figure out what you want to do and you do— you start out doing everything. And he actually started out doing like marketing websites and videos, so even more wide. Uh, and then he realized, well, like, I can't be good at everything, so what am I best at? And so he, he transitioned to exclusively videography.

Yeah.

Um, and then he was like, I— the next step was, okay, who am I going to what industry am I going to, to specialize in? And he ended up doing sports videography and, uh, ended up— now his, his clients are exclusively like NFL, NHL, top-tier universities doing promotional video, hype video, that all that stuff to supplement, you know, their in-house videography teams. Yeah. Um, but I— the, the common thread, and it sounds like the thread for you is too, is like, what, what actually light your fire? Like, what is it that you really enjoy doing as opposed to having to do all this other stuff that you don't really enjoy doing?

Totally. Yes. Yes, for sure.

Yeah. Because there are a lot of moving parts, right? I mean, like, you don't— Yeah. In our business, you know, there's a lot of different elements of things like bookkeeping and taxes and payroll and wealth management. And it's like, do you want to do all of those components? Or do you want to manage others that do that? Um, do you envision recreating a production company where you're still focusing on the cinematography and directing and, and having an in-house crew, or a dedicated— maybe not employees, but like a dedicated crew that you work with, or no, just staying with the consulting?

Well, I'm not consulting per se.

But I will say I do the way that I kind of restructured my rebrand is I have a tab on my website of like, hey, I can still do full service production, right.

And, you know, the way that I've strategized and kind of networked is I have a network of different people now, you know, producers, I know, different people that If a client came to me, you know, I could put together a team and do that for them. But I would say in this season of life, I don't want to be doing that per se all the time. I think at a later season, maybe potentially.

But again, I think I just, I don't necessarily want to be managing, you know. I would want other people to hire other people, you know, a producer, um, you know, to kind of manage that side of things.

So, so to, to paraphrase, let me see if I'm saying this correctly, you don't want to manage people? Like, the, the whole managing others is the thing that you didn't want to do? Or what, what about What about the, the production side did you not like?

Yeah, well, that's a great question. I think that there's a couple things. I think first off, with where we're at just kind of in the industry in general, it used to be a few years ago, if you had, you know, really good work, right, client-facing, that clients would hire you no matter, you know, what that client was, whether it was a local client or it was, you know, a brand, or, you know, there's a wide range of clients But now I would say in 2022 there's been a huge shift because there's so many videographers out there, there's so many influencers, there's this, that, and whatever, that, that is just not the case anymore. You have to prove to that client that you're gonna get them a certain ROI, I feel like. Or there's this shift that has happened where as a creative you have to show them and prove to them the value of your work. Like, from an ROI perspective, which obviously makes sense as a client, but at the same time, it just puts a creative, especially a solo creative that's, you know, not an agency, they're more of a production company, in a really weird position because, you know, that's just not something that we can really do, right? We're here to creatively execute. We're not here to like, you know, sell you a result. Obviously that is the goal, but I just would argue with anyone, and I know a lot of filmmakers who will make that sales pitch of like, I'm gonna get you, you know, this many views and this much ROI.

I just don't think that that is a genuinely honest thing that, you know, people can do. So that was reason number 1, is just dealing with clients and client acquisition and everything.

That was an extreme challenge with running a production company.

And I think— Okay, before you move to number 2, let me do a follow-up question then.

So, yeah.

How is that conversation different now that you're approaching it strictly as the cinematographer-director role?

Yeah, so that's a great question and I will like answer that with a recent project that I just did. So I just worked with T Brand Studio, which is the New York Times, their internal brand studio that then they work with clients. So I worked, they were the agency and then their client was Princess Cruises.. So we had a crew of about 8 people, I think, give or take. And we went on this cruise for a week and it was a brand. We shot this brand piece of this mother-daughter going on their cruise.

And this is going to be a paid advertising deal between T Brand Studio and Princess Cruises.

So in that example, I'm not dealing with the client at all, right? That's the agency that's dealing with them.

I'm getting paid to execute creatively.

So I'm getting paid as a camera operator DP.

And so they're the ones, you know, tBrand Studio is the ones that are working with that client on all of that business side of advertising and everything else.

And so, you know, all the logistics are taken care of from a production side. You're not, you know, having to sell to a client.

You're just showing up as a cinematographer and getting, you know, paid to shoot, if that makes sense.

No, it makes, makes perfect sense. So, so you mentioned ROI a couple of times, and that's kind of, uh, music to my ears. But what I, what I find in, in the creative world and marketing specifically, uh, and, and videography, oftentimes it's very difficult to to prove ROI. It reminds me, there was a videographer at the, uh, Unconference that I was talking to, and it was essentially this conversation. Um, but I said, you know, the, the main problem I see is that, you know, people that are hiring to get videography done or, or, uh, marketing done, they do want an ROI, they do have an expectation But oftentimes, it's especially with smaller organizations, they don't have a reasonable expectation or even a clear understanding. So, like, an example was, well, if you're doing these services for Princess Cruises, you know, vis-à-vis the agency, but like, they have a very sophisticated understanding of their marketing. They, they understand what their cost of acquisition is and what the value of that customer is, right? Um, if you're doing that with a small business owner, like, you know, uh, some, uh, gear brand local there in Florida that's trying to get their, their product out there, they may not have a complete understanding of that or what they can— what, what their ROI should even be, right?

Yeah.

And so that's a real hard conversation to have with them when they don't know they, what they need. Yeah. Has that been your experience?

Yeah, I mean, I think that just goes back to me, like, with the production company, what I was finding is, yes, number one, people wouldn't know what they wanted.

And again, it's like, I am not a marketing agency, I am a production company, right? So it is not my job, especially if you have an internal marketing person to figure out what you need from a marketing strategy perspective.

And that was the most frustrating thing for me as a creative video person, is having these people throw it back in your face and say, well, you tell us what, what we need. And I'm like, listen, I'm not being paid to know your company.

Like, you should know what your company needs.

Like, this is basic marketing. And so That was problem number one. And problem number two, on the back side of things, is you would make this beautiful video, right, that's very exquisite and whatever, and then they would have no understanding.

Excuse me? Bespoke. It was a bespoke video.

Yes, yes. But the distribution, they would have no idea of, you know, just simple things like you know, release a teaser on social media and build up momentum. Like, they would just release the video and then you'd be like, okay, like, you need some strategy behind your distribution. And again, that was just not something that I wanted to take on as a production company that again is more suited to like a marketing agency.

Okay, so, so if I'm going to back up. Okay, okay. I just found a sock in my shirt. I don't know what that means. Sorry, I originally said you didn't want to manage people as the problem. That really wasn't the problem. It sounds like managing the client was the problem. Like, was that—

Well, I would say it's twofold. I would say it's one, the client. That was my first point. And my second point, when it comes to managing people, it wasn't so much managing people. Like, I've managed people as a director and really enjoy that. And working directly with like a subject and all that.

It was more producing and production management that I did not like, where you're producing, you're handling all the logistics, and that's what I did not like.

Got it. Got it. All right. So now that you've pivoted here, what has that changed from the business side? So obviously, if you're, if you're doing business with a large agency, budgets, pricing are entirely different than if you're going direct to customer. And yeah, so, so how has that affected the, the business side, that pivot?

Yeah, so I think my pricing strategy is definitely more straightforward because it's not, you know, this lump sum of, you know, the project, the editing, the you know, all the different things that go into producing a project from start to finish. Now it's just based on like a day rate and like, am I bringing the drone?

Am I bringing the underwater housing? So it's a little more straightforward, which is nice. I appreciate that because I honestly hate putting together proposals and I feel like I'm not very good at it. So yeah, that would be one of the biggest things.

I'm trying to think what else from a business perspective.

Well, has it been, has it been, uh, more successful that, you know, doing the straightforward, I'm just doing this, uh, are you, are you making more money than doing it where you had to manage all the elements?

I would say yes. I just made this transition, I would say, in the past year, 6 months. Even.

I would say more like 6 months. It's very new.

Um, it has taken me a year because I feel like the network that I was playing in for the production company has changed now with this new model. And so a lot of my networking is not so much directly to clients, it is more, um, people in the industry, you know. It's, it's agencies, it's other positions within production.

And those have been what's getting me the jobs now.

And it's taken, I'd say, 6 months to a year of, like, sowing those seeds, networking.

But I would say now, specifically already this year, December, January, I've seen it starting to really pay off and yes, make more money than, you know, having a bottleneck doing everything myself, kind of.

Yeah, bottleneck is a great word. I, I, I'm curious, so like agencies, you know, traditionally have had a lot of talent like you in-house. Yeah. Um, is that shifting where they're going more outside and, and getting and hiring that? As opposed to having, as opposed to having the crew and the talent working for the agency.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's 50/50, kind of. Like, I know some friends of mine that work in-house for an agency. Um, and then I think I haven't worked with as many agencies.

I feel like I've worked more straight with like productions, you know what I mean?

Like other production companies.

So The agency, the advertising agency world is definitely an interesting world to play in.

It's, I would say, heavily—

there can definitely be in-house talent. And I feel like sometimes in Florida, the talent that they do bring in, there's like this kind of understanding that they're going to bring it in from LA, you know, or like they're not going to hire. There's kind of like this conception amongst local creatives that get a little frustrated sometimes with the bigger agencies that they will bring in talent from LA, kind of.

So there is some of that within like these big commercial marketing agencies.

Which, which do you prefer, working with production companies or agencies? Just personally.

Um, I think it just depends on the project, you know. Um, yeah, I would say it depends on the project. I would say I've had more experience working with other, like, productions. Um, so yeah.

And you specialize a lot in, you know, outdoor, underwater. Um, is that, I assume, what you're, you're leading with as far as, like, this is the type of work that I I, I do best, or is that why people are hiring you? Like, obviously Princess Cruises, they're, they're going to have a heavy element of that. Yeah. Um, is that what is attracting people to you? Is that specialization? Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

I think it, it depends on the client. I know for me and in the kind of work that I want to do, I've always leaned strongly into the outdoors.

You know, being located in Florida here, I, you know, incorporate underwater work and a lot of water lifestyle kind of into, you know, my personal portfolio and brand and the projects that I've shot.

And I would also say there's a nonprofit element too, like a, yeah, like a telling people's stories nonprofit element. So those two things are kind of the two target areas where I've seen some overlap in my career, which has been really incredible, where I've been able to kind of tell stories that touch on both.

But then I've also, you know, told— done projects that work one kind of realm, other kind of realm.

When it comes to where I'm going, I think I would love to kind of be that female cinematographer that works with other females in the industry. I'm very passionate about that. Um, but really is that kind of lifestyle, um, water, you know, destination, uh, Caribbean kind of feel. And so that's what I've kind of led with on my portfolio. And again, it's tricky because it's that age-old question of like, how far do you niche down? And people have conflicting views on like, well, you've got to stay adaptable to get all different kinds of work. And that is true. And I do do a lot of different kinds of work.

I just don't always put it on my portfolio.

But for those jobs like Princess Cruises, they told me, they were like, you were our first pick because your work screams like that destination, the blue hues and all that sort of thing.

So you can argue on either side of that coin, I guess, as creative of how far you, you know, niche down.

Yeah, I, I, my statement in general around, around business is that, and this has been my experience as well, is that there's a, there's an aversion to limiting the scope or, or your target market or niching, however you're defining that. Yeah, but because there's this inherent feeling like you're limiting yourself, like, yeah, if I'm, if I can't do everything that I'm going to limit my opportunities. But then I pivot to like John Morgan and Rival Studios and like there's— that's a success story of niching. Totally. But it's, you know, his— my conversation with him on the podcast, it was like, well, that is a big enough market to niched to, right? Like, yep. So you, you don't want to niche into something that doesn't have enough potential for you, right? Totally. Um, and I think that's where people kind of get, uh, stuck, is they understand conceptually that if you're really good at one thing, people will hire you, you're the number one pick. Yeah, but is there enough work, uh, is there enough business to, to justify just that niche, right? And that's, that's the balance you have to cast.

Exactly. No, I love that.

I love the way that you describe that. I think it's very true.

Yeah. And I would think that, you know, what you do, uh, there'd be plenty of work because that seems to be, uh, you know, a very popular, uh, type of content.

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I want to pivot to something you said, and then, you know, you and I discussed this, uh, in our conversation before the podcast about the female perspective. Yes. Um, I think that's fascinating because I agree with you that there definitely is a, um, I'll just say female energy that, that comes that is distinct from a male energy. Um, how have you, how have you navigated that with, without like saying I only work with females? Like, so how do you, how do you put yourself out there to, to show that that is there without pissing off other people, for instance? I don't know if that's the right way to say that.

Yeah, I mean, I think I just try to lead with my work, and I've had people like clients come to me 2 I can think of very specifically that were like, we want to work with a female, you know, whether it's videographer or cinematographer, depending on the project. And so they've come to me because just who I am, I guess.

And then, you know, obviously they've seen my work aligns because, you know, it's been in kind of the surf lifestyle, you know, arena.

So I try to just like not be so forward-facing.

Like, I'm not going to put on my website, I, you know, only like to work with females or something.

Like, I'm not going to do that. It's more just like overarching in what I shoot. And then also just networking, you know, like I am in the process of trying to build a group of female cinematographers.

And, you know, it's like a community that you know, we can get on virtually via Zoom once a month.

And I think that's one of the biggest things I do is just really, you know, whether it's supporting on social media, it's networking, it's reaching out to other females in the industry. And, you know, you never know, like, they have a job, they're a female director, and then they need you.

You know, that kind of thing is kind of the approach that, that I've taken as opposed to being one of those super verbal people that's like, you know, women this and women that, and, you know, women first. Like, yeah, I guess I kind of try to take a bit of a softer approach.

And it's not that I don't like working with guys. I do like working with guys. But I mean, I'll just be honest and say, like, there are definitely times where the stereotype still stands, where you get belittled and you get treated and mansplained. I mean, I've had plenty of those times happen, and it It pisses me off, you know, it's, it's not right, you know, so.

I know it's, it is, it is, it is interesting because, and I guess probably in the creative world, this probably shows up more clearly because it's, it's, I don't want to say more ambiguous, but like, like nobody gives a shit if, if their account is male or female, because, you know, the delivery, the deliverables on the surface are, are more measurable, right? Like, you know, you did it on time, you did it right, you communicated, whatever. But when you're dealing with a creative product, um, it, it's not as cut and dry as, as far as the results. But I think that it definitely shows up more, uh, the difference between masculine and feminine energy, because, you know, it's, it's very different. Um, I— so tell me about this cohort that you put together. What does that look like?

Well, I'm still in the process of creating it, but, um, basically it's, it's really just a community that can meet virtually. This is my vision for it, is a community that can meet virtually of female cinematographers.

You know, they could be in documentary, commercial, narrative, whatever, as long as they're, you know, professional.

They're, they're, you know, um, this is their career. And, you know, my vision for it is really a place to, you know, network, to educate. I would love to bring in, you know, female cinematographers that are like my heroes, that I look up to, that me and have them, you know, have a quick chat with the group and have an education piece. And then I would also really love, you know, kind of a troubleshooting piece because I think, you know, in the industry, like, female DPs can get under a lot of scrutiny from their male counterparts, you know, on the technical side.

I think female DPs tend to be maybe slightly less technical.

I don't know. That's kind of a stereotype. I know for me, I'm definitely less technical. I'm a lot more on the creative side and have to work very hard at the technical side. But it's really kind of a place to troubleshoot of like, hey, whether it's creatively in the actual craft of like, I'm having this problem, or even on the business side of like, this is a business issue I'm having within my business of being a cinematographer. And so So, that's really my heart and my vision, you know, behind kind of, you know, organizing this group and structuring it and everything.

And I'm still in the early phases of that working with two other, you know, female cinematographers that I know.

So— Well, I love it. And I think that you're on to something. I mean, like the Unconference really kind of confirmed for me about this need for community and creatives. Totally. Um, and you know, the— we, we screwed up last year. We tried to do a live event for creatives and, uh, we invested a lot of money, committed a lot of money to it, and it— we didn't sell any tickets. And so we pivoted with that financial commitment and later this month, we have 10 of our clients coming in. Now, this is, this is, this is what's fascinating to me, right? These, these 10 clients are coming in on their own dime. We're paying for the hotel and, you know, we're feeding them and whatever. But the fact that they would commit their own money and their time to come to this really was like, oh, like, there's this desire to connect with others. They're not coming here for us. Like, we're just giving them the place to get together and, and network and communicate and collaborate.

Totally.

Um, and so what's— what I was telling, uh, Delaina, my, my head of revenue, who was working with me on this Creative Revolution was the, the live event. I'm like, we, we didn't— we, we kind of went off on a tangent, but we ended up getting what we, what we intended, which is this, uh, uh, community, uh, element. And, and so I guess then my, my follow-up question to you is, have you considered monetizing it? Have you considered making it something that pay for.

Yeah, I, I think that's down the road a bit. I think, yeah, no, I haven't considered that, but I think, um, potentially. I think right now it's just in the— we're just trying to get it rolling. Like, right now we're trying to put, you know, the founding meeting on the schedule and, and, you know, create a Facebook page, all that.

So yeah, potentially, um, but I think that that would be later on down the road.

Yeah, I, I think, I think what you're doing is, is wise to just say, okay, is there, is there interest, right? Totally. Um, I think one of the, uh, and I'm not mansplaining, I really am experience sharing here.

No, it's okay.

I think one of the reasons to consider monetizing it is, um, people don't value what they don't pay for. And I've seen this in my experience. Like we have, for instance, part of core service for our clients is we have monthly coaching calls and they're via Zoom. And we've been doing it about 10 months. And what I found is there's a core group that come every time because they're like all in, they want to, they want to do it. And then there's a, you know, another set that come every once in a while. And then there's a whole bunch of people that sign up that don't come, right? Uh, and, you know, it's led me to believe that what I've, I've, I need to do is actually, uh, set up a, a separate, uh, delivery of this where they pay. Because if they don't, if they don't pay, it's too easy to sign up. I'm not going to come this month. Whatever. It's, it's, it's that commitment level. It's not, it's not really about making more money on our end. It's really of like— because Vincent, Vincent the Unconference organizer, he was talking about that. He had a, he had a coaching of all these photographers, and he had a similar deal. And what he found was like 20% of the people were showing up.

Yeah.

And he was like, I'm not, I'm not— I feel like I'm not having enough impact because nobody's showing up. And so that's when he transitioned to this live conference, which is a paid event. You have to pay to come, um, and you have to be invited. So, uh, it— you know, he sold out this event the first year, um, and now has a second year. And, um, the idea that you have to— if you don't pay for something, you don't value it, is is unfortunately the psychology of humans.

Yeah, no, that's a great point. I definitely will take that into consideration. I think that's a great point.

Well, you can give me a kickback if you want. I mean, that's totally fine. Um, pivot one more time. Um, yeah, talk about your, your, your marketing efforts now that you, you pivoted. Um, and you said you, you had to change change who you were, you were marketing to. Yeah. What have you found effective?

Yeah, that is a great question.

Um, I know, that's what I do is I ask great questions.

I think, um, I thought a lot about this because I've spent a year kind of really going hard on the marketing. Um, so the first thing I will say is networking events. I am part of the AAF, which is a great organization. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called the American Advertising— American Advertising Federation. They have chapters all over the country. Orlando, where— near where I live, has a very active one. I have gotten on the film committee. They have different committees.

Again, they're more in advertising, but that also includes, you know, filmmakers and, and, you know, production.

And so, um, that was something that was recommended to me. I have done that and gotten, you know, certain opportunities. It's just good to, to meet people. I'm also part of, um, Women in Film and Television. That's another kind of organization that has local chapters. So, you know, it has been to a certain extent, some driving, like some driving down south to check out different chapters of these networking events. I have also joined a couple Facebook groups that have gig updates in production. There's like 3 or 4 of them I'm a part of. That is a great resource. That is how I got the Cruise job, crazy enough. It's this online female group called Media Mavens. They have like an email Google group and then a Facebook group. That is how I got that job. So I have found that to be very, to be effective. It's hit or miss. And then I think just the more that you're on set with other people, the more it becomes easier. Like, for example, you know, the sound girl on this cruise, we all like, all of us crew like just got along so well and had so much fun. So then, you know, a few days after, she like recommends me for this job and then I get a Medium Events request for a sound girl. So then I send her that. So it just kind of spiders out. So any opportunities that you can get on set, get on production, even for free shooting BTS, you're going to meet people that then can lead to this opportunity that leads to that opportunity. And then I think the last thing that I've really been reflecting on that I feel like has paid off very well is if there's a certain person that you see as a great opportunity, you want to work with them, or you see it leading somewhere, invite them, like, to do something with you, you know, like, to invite them, get them work. And then that becomes like this really solid connection because now you're established as like, hey, I've got my own work here, I'm bringing you on this project I'm going to be on, and that makes them feel good. And then, um, yeah, and then it just kind of grows from there, you know. Um, so I have found that to be very effective.

Like, people want to be a part of like you know, someone who's doing things and, you know, is open and wants to bring other people on.

So yeah, I, I think any marketing efforts that lead with value, uh, are, are incredibly effective. And what you just described where you, you're like, hey, what, what are you looking for? What, how can I help you, um, without asking for anything? And then you deliver it, I think is very powerful because there's a little reciprocity there. Like, people feel like, well, I got to give something back because Michaela hooked me up. But it's not always that, you know, level. But underneath, there's like, well, I owe her something.

Yeah. Well, I think what I'm saying is like this, the principle that you're talking about, like, it applies on a very personal network.

Not just like—

it applies on a very personal one-to-one basis. And I think sometimes when you're starting out, you're looking for that hand up of that person that is like ahead of you and is willing to take a chance on you or invite you on. That's kind of the position that you take. And I think what I'm saying is making that subtle shift of, you know, hey, I'm already someone that's getting jobs, I'm gonna bring other people on and get them jobs, and then they kind of think, okay, Michaela's like, you know, she's a working professional, she's this, she's that. And then, you know, it kind of evens things out, I guess.

You're seen on equal footing, not like, hey, I want to like, you know, get this opportunity from you, I guess.

So yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's sage advice. Um, how do people find out more about your work?

Yeah, so, um, my website is the best place, mgwpro.com. Kind of has all my work, a little more about me, and, um, you know, you can connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn as well.

Perfect. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you'd like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, uh, shoot us a message and tell us what you'd like to hear, and we'll get rid of Michaela. Until next time, ta-ta for now.