Josh Cochran: The Intersection of Addiction and Identity

They're saying that's what's responsible inside of entrepreneurs, right? For going and finding and overcoming hurdles and finding new ways of doing things. And yeah, and what, what would be traditionally described as an entrepreneurial ability is kind of generated by that. And, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but, but if we could take a couple steps back into the dopamine cycle conversation. Okay, so you, you wanna start this new business and, uh, and you launch it and, you know, and, and day after day and week after week, you're, you're working inside this venture to make it a success. And you, at the end of a week or a day, for me, what I'm hoping to look back on that day and feel a sense of accomplishment that I have, that I've moved the ball forward. Right. And I've always described that as a sense of accomplishment, like, for the day, like, I— or, or maybe a sense of productivity, like, I was productive today, got a lot done.

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

So this is Christian Brim coming from the Dream Big Studios. We just named it. Thank you, Piyush Patel, for offering us this space. I'm here with Josh Cochran. What— let's start with like a 2-minute overview of your, uh, business, your— what, what you do.

Okay. Yeah, thanks for having me today. Absolutely. Um, a cool opportunity to have an interesting conversation, which I'm always up for, especially when it's about entrepreneurs. That's, that's, uh, fun. So my business is a— is considered a, a managed service business. It's in the IT industry. Essentially, when companies want to focus on just what they do and they don't want to have to worry about hiring a whole tech department, a team of people to support what they do, they come find companies like mine.

Okay.

And we come in and are their technical department and we fill all those roles in between. Sometimes they might want like a virtual CIO, a chief information officer, or a chief technology officer, someone who's maybe involved in their business and their business vision more than, even more than just a day-to-day support of their IT infrastructure, which we do, right?

More of the strategy component, right?

But, but beyond that, um, one of my personal passions is being involved in, in their business and their business vision and helping them achieve those those results that they're wanting to, to go after. And that, that's so much fun to be a part of that, right?

Yeah. Not so much fun plugging in Ethernet cables.

Right.

Yeah. So how long have you been in business?

The business itself has been in business for 40 years. This, this year actually will be our 40th year. My dad started the company back in '84. Okay. And he started as a telecommunications company where he sold business telephone systems to other businesses along the way as he's out there fixing stuff, installing stuff. They, they're like, you know, hey, can you fix this computer over here?

And how about this microwave?

Right. So you're good with technology. Yeah. So he found himself kind of teaching himself computers and things like that. And it remained kind of a side service that would, you know, get tacked on to the phone systems and, you know, running cable and things like that. And then, of course, you know, as a kid, I was raised, you know, working summers and part-time with him on and off. And he always told me, look, look, don't— please don't do this business just because I'm doing it, you know, just, you know, if it's— if it turns into something you want to do, great.

But.

Right. But don't just do, you know, so I really took that to heart. I, I went to, to school for an electrical engineering degree and then, and that was in 2000 and the dot-com boom, right, was just, you know, happening at that point. I was helping my dad code a website because I had taught myself how to, you know, write HTML and things like that. And, and he was just killing it online. And I told my best friend, right, who was going for a mechanical engineering degree, I was like, we're morons if we don't start our own business. Okay, so I'm kind of an entrepreneur, uh, twice over in the sense that, you know, I was raised kind of in that environment with my dad and he was very much an entrepreneur. But, uh, my, my buddy and I started our own business in a completely different, uh, industry, automotive industry. Okay, automotive upholstery online.

Okay, all right.

And, um, yeah, anyway, so we, we, uh, we started that business together, um, 'cause he said, yeah, you're right, we're morons if we don't start a business. What should we do? And I was like, I don't know, but we gotta figure something out. So we were car guys and we stumbled across kind of an opportunity and started that automotive upholstery business online. And him and I own that business until today. We still own that business together and it's very successful. But while we were—

It's not Fellers. No, no. Okay.

No, it's very, very original. Okay. LeatherSeats.com.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

But while we were launching that, it just worked out. My dad had some heart surgery and he said, you know, while you're, while you're doing your thing, launching your business, you know this business well, why don't you help run the company while I'm out, you know, with surgery and all that. And, and that way you're not a burden on your, your company. And, and anyway, it worked out. I said, that's great, you know, I'll do that. So I, I went to work for him. That gave me the freedom to launch.

And when was that?

That was in 2000. Oh, okay. Um, and, uh, and I dropped out of college because I just, I just didn't have the focus. I was, I was all about this, this business and this new business that I was starting with my buddy. And, uh, and I also realized I just, I'm, I don't have the focus to stay in class. You know, I'd gone for 2 years. Right. I thought, I'm, I wanna take advantage of this opportunity in the market with the dot-com thing, you know, blowing up and I, let's do that. So anyway, what happened long-term was I just fell in love with the opportunities that I was getting in my dad's business going, 'cause that's what you do when you're a technology business. You're always going into other people's businesses. Right. And with telecommunications and, and, um, computers, inevitably you're sitting down with the decision makers, right? So it was like I was constantly interviewing and talking to these business owners and seeing all these different entrepreneurial pathways and, you know, ways to success and start starting a business. And it was so much fun. And, and they are considering me a, in many ways, a peer, right? Because they're asking me like, how— this is what I want to achieve. How do I do that with my telephone system, or how do I reach out to my customers better? How do I— and I'm giving them advice. And that was like the coolest thing ever, right? So anyway, I just— I kind of fell in love with that aspect of my dad's business and eventually over the years just started running the whole thing. My dad really just did kind of the sales, right? And I did all the operations and pretty much every other thing, ran every other aspect. And then And then in 2019, he, he fully retired. And now I own and operate the company 100%.

So awesome.

So from that perspective, I'm, I'm kind of twice over the entrepreneur in that, in that regard, maybe a second generation entrepreneur.

Yeah. I don't know if we can call you a serial entrepreneur.

Yeah. Um, I have, you know, other little ventures that I've started.

Okay. We can call you a serial entrepreneur.

Yeah, not that I'm shooting for that title, but, uh, but the, the, uh, those two businesses are, are over and above the most successful that I've been involved with, and it's been a great journey.

So you, you read the, the, uh, study that we— you chose was on, uh, addiction, uh, entrepreneurial addiction. Yeah. Why'd you pick that one?

Well, I picked it based on the title. And the neat thing again is, you know, like I kind of was sharing earlier, just watching other entrepreneurs and being involved in their businesses because of the industry that I'm in, it's just given me kind of a front row seat to tons of startups. I've got to sit on several boards where one in particular, a $3 million,, you know, tech startup for a software company. And so I just, I, that was intriguing to me, just, just thinking about, um, starting a, a new venture, um, what that journey looks like and, um, seeing different entrepreneurs kind of go through that. Uh, and then of course my, my best friend that I started this automotive business with is what I would describe, and he would describe himself this way, as a workaholic. I mean, mm-hmm. And I watched that business just become the absolute top priority, right, in his life.

Well, that's— so you brought the study, highlighted, you have Post-it notes. I'm very impressed. What did you learn from reading the study?

Well, I think I more walked away with just more questions than answers. Okay. The study's not a long study. It's about 4 pages long, and there's a couple things in it that I felt felt like he kind of jumped to some conclusions that I'm not necessarily ready to jump to. Yeah. Uh, you know, there's some, there's some there, therefore, right, kind of type sentences in there. And, and I'm like, well, maybe, is it? Oh, maybe.

Yeah.

But what's your evidence that— but, but I just thought the whole concept was, was an interesting way because we— to think about it. And I'm wondering if it's really unique to entrepreneurs Or not. Like, that was one of my questions was, well, first of all, maybe we should talk about what the study is.

Well, yes. So the study talks about the dopamine cycle and then postulates that entrepreneurs can become essentially physically addicted to it, the idea of entrepreneurism, the business. Similarly to being addicted to, you know, nicotine or alcohol or food or anything else that produces that drug in our brain. And, you know, that's what I found interesting because I didn't quite understand the dopamine cycle and the chemistry behind it, how it becomes an addiction because you can never get your dopamine levels back to where you got the high, right? And so you're always chasing that high. And I also found it interesting because I'd heard this before, that, you know, when people go into treatment for, for drugs or whatever, that, you know, the, the physical addiction is fairly easy to fix, right? It's about resetting the dopamine levels. So like, if you, if you abstain from whatever that is for a brief period of time, your brain resets, but it doesn't do anything to address the, uh, reason you got addicted in the first place, right? It just cures the physical addiction, the dopamine addiction. And so when reading that, I'm like, oh, okay, well, that, that, that makes sense. Okay, you, you can get physically cured from an addiction fairly quickly. It's the psychological aspect of the addiction that got you there in the first place that's, that's not— that takes time.

Right. Yeah. And I would say, you know, I come from this from a complete, you know, I'm not a medical professional and I'm not a research scientist. So just a lot of interesting questions that came up in my head as I was reading the study. The dopamine cycle is essentially, you know, that you go do something, right? And you, you, it's, it's, you find it enjoyable. Right. And dopamine gets released. Right. And interestingly enough, the study talks about the dopamine cycle a little bit and even, even says that the dopamine chemical is actually released in anticipation before of something that you're going to achieve.

Correct.

Right. So I believe what the, what it was kind of setting forth was this kind of idea that the entrepreneur has in his or her mind, this this end goal, this thing that's going to happen, this event, this idea, probably. And surrounding this idea is the idea of success and achievement. You're going to achieve this thing. And so that when you do things toward this goal, in the accomplishment of this goal, that dopamine gets released.

Right. It's the anticipation. I've, I heard about this study a long time ago that they said that gambler's high is actually right before the result of the bet. Like that, that's their high. It's not the, it's not the winning. Yeah, it's the anticipation. Right, right. And so that tracks. That makes sense. And I think entrepreneurs you know, love to think of new ideas and think of potential and possible futures. And yeah, I can see where you could get addicted to that pretty quickly.

So here's my question though, and I understand that we're looking through the lens of entrepreneurship.

Correct.

But before we get there, I think my question is, is this process of dopamine being released be, you know, for the entrepreneur any different than any other possible job? Or, or I, I mean, for an athlete that's trying to achieve like amazing performance in their, in their sport or something like it, what's— why is this any different? And, and is it— if it is the same really across humanity in no matter what kind of endeavor you're going after, right?

Right.

Because you could say, what are some other things that you could say? Like the entrepreneur's going after this, but a professional athlete, a hedge fund trader's doing the same thing. Correct. Right. A professional athlete, a high-performing executive. So if that's really just the same no matter what, isn't this more of a human condition or—

Oh no, I think it is. I think the dopamine cycle is, is a human condition that we have to deal with. The, the, the study is trying to tie that to entrepreneurism. And, and like you, I left reading the study with questions and I questioned their conclusions, right? It, it seemed like there was too big of a leap because when I think of addiction in entrepreneurism, I think of like your traditional addictions, like there's a whole bunch of things that you can be addicted to and entrepreneurs have a higher rate of addiction than the population as a whole. Like they tend to struggle with alcohol and other drugs and sex and, you know, whatever else gives them that dopamine high. So I was thinking that that was where the study was going to go, but it didn't. It didn't talk about the addictions of entrepreneurs. It talked about people being addicted to entrepreneurship.

Right?

Right. And you mentioned workaholic as your partner. I think, I don't think that's the same thing. I mean, just from my experience, like I don't, I don't.

So being a workaholic. Right. In your mind, you would define that different than being addicted to entrepreneur, right?

Because, because I, I don't— I mean, this is just, again, my experience. I don't— when I worked a lot more, um, in my, my earlier career, it wasn't that I enjoyed it, right? I mean, like, it wasn't like I got excited thinking about working 70 hours a week. That, that didn't give me a dopamine rush. What gave me the dopamine rush was envisioning the potential that I, that I saw.

Right, right.

And I think, as you know, entrepreneurs being visionaries, one of the, one of the problems we run into is, is execution, right? So, and, and we get real— well, I, I'll speak for myself, I get real bored with the execution component, right? It gets tedious. It gets— it's, it's not the same feeling. And so, you know, we mentioned serial entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs, I think those are the people that if there, if there is somebody that's addicted to entrepreneurism, it's the serial entrepreneur because they're only interested in the initial phase when they get that high, like, you know, getting it off the ground, launching it. And then the, the, you know, first 2 years are great. After that They lose interest.

Yeah. And I think that's where I was just starting to ask myself a lot more questions about exactly what are we calling addiction? Exactly what are they trying to say is part of this whole dopamine journey? Right. So for instance, and it says a couple things in here related to that, the The dopamine release, and, and they're not, by the way, they're not, they're not saying this is necessarily a negative thing, right? Although you, some people would put, certainly put addiction in a negative category, but, but they're saying that this release of dopamine and this cycle that it creates generates something in an entrepreneur that, that in a sense he's harnessing that kind of cycle And what it produces is his ability or his— the mechanism in him to go find new ways of getting things done.

Right.

Right. Because he did it this way last time, he got the dopamine hit. Now it's not the same. And you're looking for another hit, right, in a sense, of dopamine. And so that— they're saying that's what's responsible inside of entrepreneurs, right, for going and finding and overcoming hurdles and finding new ways of doing things. And yeah. And what would be traditionally described as an entrepreneurial ability is kind of generated by that. And I'm not disagreeing with that, but if we could take a couple steps back into the dopamine cycle conversation, okay, so you wanna start this new business and you launch it and day after day and week after week, you're working inside this venture to make it a success. And you, at the end of a week or a day, for me, what I'm hoping to look back on that day and feel a sense of accomplishment that I have, that I've moved the ball forward.

Right.

And I've always described that as a sense of accomplishment, like for the day, like, or, or maybe a sense of productivity, like, oh, I was productive today. Got a lot done.

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Yeah. And then is that what they're saying is the dopamine cycle?

I don't think so.

I, I mean, I, so what, you know what I mean?

Like how do you recognize, cuz you said, you know, it's different than a workaholic, you know, so what is the, is it the, To me, I think it would manifest as someone that is a visionary that constantly comes up with ideas and new directions and can't get any traction, right? That they, because they're enamored or addicted to the idea, the feeling, the creation aspect of it.

So where are you getting that portion of it that it's, that's, they can't get anywhere. They're just constantly coming up. I didn't. Well, I don't know that I saw that in the—

No, no, no, no, this is more my experience, right? So, but the reality is, is that if you don't get traction and you don't implement things, then there's no economic value to sustain those visions, right? Like, so if the idea falls flat on its face, then you don't have a business. And you see this, I saw this myself where in my business, I kept, bolting things onto the business. Oh, well, we can do insurance and we can do wealth management and oh, we can do business advisory. And so like, it was, to me, it was all about the newness, right? But that's not necessarily the best business decision, right? You split your focus, especially if you're working with a team, it gets very confusing. Like, what, I don't understand, are we in the insurance business now? Like what, you know, They look at you with that face. I think it— I think that's where the addiction gets destructive in the business. Outside the business, you know, all the consequences of financial failure, right? So the effect that it has on your personal relationships, et cetera. I just find it— I find as an entrepreneur, and I've heard this experience from many others, that the running the business part, it just is not the same. And you either accept it and do it anyway, or, you know, if, if you're big enough and profitable enough, you find someone else to come in and, and be your integrator, be your executive officer that can make the trains run on time and, and handle that for you, or you just sell it and go on. I mean, like I, I, I got so frustrated with my business that I turned it over to my brother, who was my partner at the time, and walked away and started a software company. I mean, and I remember telling him very definitively is I have no idea what I'm going to do if this doesn't work, but it's not going to be running an accounting firm. And that was 7 or 8 years ago. And here I am. Right.

Okay. So So how do you know though when that's just that you just didn't find that challenging anymore versus a dopamine addiction?

I don't think personally I've ever been addicted to entrepreneurism.

Oh, okay. I thought you were kind of saying that you bolting all these things onto your CPA form was sort of like maybe a That was the way—

that was a symptom. But I don't think I was truly addicted. Maybe I was. I don't know. I think that's how it showed up for me.

How would you know, though?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I never went to go see a psychologist. I don't know that they'd be able to diagnose me properly anyway.

And here's— and I guess here's one of the things my thought is, is like, well, it feels like this is just a normal human experience that's just— this is just part of being a human. Well, you'll find this in almost every aspect of human life, this dopamine cycle, right? And so is it really an addiction, or is it just part of being a human being?

And this is where I don't have the clinical background to say, like, what is addiction? To me, as a layman, I would say addiction is when that becomes destructive, right? So like, take food. We get a dopamine rush from eating food.

Yeah.

We all have to do it usually several times a day, right? Yeah. So it's not a negative in and of itself. Am I addicted to food? Well, maybe. I don't know. I'm 20 pounds overweight. Is that— you know what I'm saying? I mean, I don't know. Is it destructive where I can't stop eating or I obsess about eating? No. But you see, I don't know what that line is.

Well, I think, and that's where I was starting to find this, is it a study or is it just a paper? Like a research paper. I felt like it was more like a, here's some thoughts.

Yeah, there wasn't any new data. In a very scientific-y, you know, presentation format. Could have condensed this down to a couple of paragraphs.

Nevertheless, I thought it was interesting. Like, it was interesting. Like, okay, all right, I can see how there could be some people out there that are so focused on this, you know, that they're just on to the next thing as soon as they're done.

Yeah, and I can see where that gets— I can see where there are other aspects of entrepreneurship such as the stick-to-itiveness, the focus, the drive, that those could be misinterpreted by other people as addiction, right?

And that was my thought, right? So, well, so, okay, so how do you know? Right, right. Like, cause it seems like there's some very positive things about that.

You know what? Exactly.

You bolting these things onto your business and trying all these things. Like, how is that not just you troubleshooting your business? Like, or looking for a more efficient way or saying like, you know, hey, we've got, we've got to do better than our competition. Like, well, sometimes the only way to do that is to try something that's never been tried before.

True. But it too. Okay, so if I were gonna look back at my experience and say, was I addicted in that moment? Probably, because I didn't have anywhere else to get that high. And so it was in my business to do that, but I don't know that, you know, it was, well, it definitely wasn't the right thing to do at the time, right? What had happened in my business is I had gotten to the point where we, I, we were capped at my ceiling. I was the ceiling of the company, and in order to grow further, we needed a, a different operating system. I needed to change my mindset and implement different things in order for the company to grow beyond that. But instead, I kept playing entrepreneur and actually did the opposite. Instead of, instead of adding new things, I actually ended up taking things away. I ended up reducing the size of the company and streamlining it so that I could grow. I was doing too many things. And so, so my addiction was destructive in that I was doing the exact opposite of what I needed to do to get to where I wanted to be, which was to grow.

So you consider it an addiction? You felt like—

I guess. You have that. You kind of have talked me into it.

I don't— Did I? Yeah, I don't— I didn't mean to.

No, I don't feel like I do now, but that's because I have alternatives for my creativity, right? And that was a huge thing. One, to identify those things and be able to do them. But then to have the business be able to work without me so that I could, right? So it's kind of a catch-22. You, you have a business that relies heavily on you, or at least you think it does, and therefore you don't have another alternative, right? You can't find a— so it's like, well, instead of, of being addicted to heroin, I'm gonna take up smoking, right? Like, there's no alternative to, to get that addiction scratched. So, yeah, I think that you have to have a clear idea of how you want— what the alternative is, and you have to want that more than you want what the business is giving you.

Well, let me introduce another factor. In this whole thing as we're considering. So, and by the way, going back, I'm leaning more toward this addiction idea presented in this paper is, if it's true, is far more rare than we really think it is.

Right. Not that addiction in entrepreneurs is rare, but that addiction to entrepreneurship is rare. Correct.

I would agree with that. And part of— so let me introduce the next factor, and that is a psychological factor related to our self-perception and our identity and our self-esteem.

Yeah.

Right. So I, looking at myself, I would say that a large motivating factor for me is, or at least it has been in the past, I think I'm I'm distancing myself from this, right? Older and more mature I get, right? Okay. But when I look back, I have to admit that I see myself, my perception of myself is as an entrepreneur. And I also see that other people see me as an entrepreneur and see me as a business person. And so, like, the definition and the the determination of, of, of a successful entrepreneur is success, is that he has success, right? Right. And he makes money and his business is profitable. Um, and so if I see myself as an entrepreneur and I want to be a successful entrepreneur and, and that's part of my identity, then that is a huge motivating factor every single day for me to go in and put work in. And, and so my whole focus becomes on being successful, uh, my achievements, uh, even from a day-to-day, like from a productivity standpoint, not having a wasted day, not feeling like I'm, you know, well, that was a wasted day, you know, I just wasted a whole bunch of time doing nothing, right? So that in itself becomes the motivating factor. And therefore, at the end of a particularly productive day, I feel great.

Yes.

I feel good about myself because all those feelings are wrapped up into my perception of who I am. I'm an entrepreneur and I want to be a successful entrepreneur, and it's important for other people to see me as a successful entrepreneur. That's a component of my, of me being as successful. Entrepreneurs, other people also seeing and agreeing that I'm successful. Yeah. So just reaching the end of a productive day becomes incredibly important. At least for me, it was and is. I think as the older I get, the more mature I'm able to handle that relationship between me and my business. And not letting that be so much part of my identity. But still, when I get the end— at the end of a very productive day, I feel great about myself. And so anyway, is that— I'm addicted to that. I really like feeling that way.

We need to get a good definition of addiction, that's for sure. Um, but, but okay, so what I would say that describes is the, the psychological component of addiction, right? So, um, your brain, the dopamine— so just—

so it is addiction?

Well, not necessarily, because I don't— we don't have a clear definition of what an addiction is. I'm, I'm— for purposes of our conversation, I'm going to say that the addiction is destructive. An addiction is when a behavior becomes destructive, okay?

However you define that, when something that you do repeatedly, right, is destructive. Yes. And wouldn't there— it feels like there's another component that's like something that you do that you almost can't help yourself from doing. A compulsion. You're—

yeah, okay. Yeah, I— yeah, it becomes compulsive, I think, is part of the destructive, right? Yeah. So like, you know, the results are bad, but you still do it, right? You, you feel compelled to do it. So What you said about identity in the business is, I would say, ubiquitous. I've never seen, I've never met an entrepreneur that didn't, at some level, and usually a very high level, self-identify with the business like it was part of who they were, right?

Which kind of talks about the other study that you gave me. You gave me an option, right?

Yes, I did.

The entrepreneur's seeing the business as their baby or as their kid.

Yes. So if we go down that road, I, in one of my conversations with Piyush Patel, he was, he made an offhanded comment and he said, you know, entrepreneurs don't have very good coping mechanisms. And I'd never heard it described in a clinical way like that. But I'm like, uh, yeah, you're right. We don't, we don't have good coping mechanisms when we experience challenges. Right. And in a lot of ways, I think our business, maybe someone can do a study on this. I don't know how they do it, but that, that the business itself becomes our coping mechanism. Right. So it's the way we overcome our inner turmoil. And, you know, I, I, from my perspective, having been in business 27 years, I, I think that in a lot of ways my business was my coping mechanism. It was a way at the end of the day to prove my self-worth. The challenge around that though, is that, okay, what is success, right? And you and I are both an EO, and historically in the US, that means that you're, you know, top 4 or 5% of all businesses as far as size. You know, if someone said you were in the 95th percentile, you took a standardized test, you'd feel pretty good about that, right? Yeah. But Not for me because I saw all the other entrepreneurs that had made more money or had bigger companies. And it's like if you don't have a real clear idea of what success looks like for you, you're always gonna be chasing something you're never gonna get. Yeah. You'll never be happy. And if that's your coping mechanism, you're gonna be miserable. 'Cause you're never going to say to you, in my case, I was never going to be able to say to myself, oh, I'm successful, I'm worthy, I'm worth being alive. Well, if that's your benchmark, you're never going to get it.

Yeah. I think that's part of the journey. I hesitate to say just as an entrepreneur, maybe it's more sharply experienced. When you're an entrepreneur, but I would say probably true in any human endeavor, in any job for any human being, this understanding of defining exactly what success is, right? Like, it doesn't matter if you're a school teacher, if you're, you know, an astronaut who never goes to the moon, right? 'Cause only like 8 of them go every 10 years or so, right?

You mean when we go to the moon, right? Right, okay.

Um, but you know what I mean? Can you imagine? Like, an astronaut would be a great example, right? You become an astronaut, the whole idea of being an astronaut is to go into space, and there's a ton of them who never go to space.

Yeah, and they're all elite of the elite, right, just to get into the program.

Yeah. And so probably a lot of them are just like, well, that was a wasted— or you could be, right? Right. That was a wasted life. You know, they've got 3 PhDs, and—

or, or you're a, you're professional ballplayer and you're the bullpen catcher, and, you know, you never see the field. So, I mean, like, is that success? Well, I know a lot of people that would consider it success, right? But it's a very personal thing that you have to be comfortable defining that as success.

Yeah.

I'm going to veer off slightly. I talked to you a little bit about the project that I'm working on and I, I wanna ask your opinion just in general and your experience about mindset, mental health, uh, self-awareness, any of those or all of those. How, how has that shown up for you, uh, as an entrepreneur?

I think a lot of those are related back to what we were just talking about, the definition of success. And for me, I think I've had to go back and retool that several times in my life. Especially when I have been put in a situation that was— there wasn't anything I could do. Yes. And I can see that I'm not achieving success. I'm not able to. Okay. Maybe that's like in several situations.

However you defined it.

I can think of, it was just economic reasons. We hit a recession. I'm having to lay people off because no one's buying anything. Right. And my entire business model is— I can see it's still viable. It's just a matter of time. Like right now, unless I shift into doing some other thing, which those things happen. But anyway, the point is that for a time you get put in a situation where there's nothing you can do. Yes. And so this part of me is just like screaming. Something you said earlier about was like this, the creative outlet. Like, it's like, right, you, you didn't have that, right? So I think there's a couple things that, that I've had— personally, I've had to do. One, again, that those, those experiences forced me to go back and reevaluate what success is and what's important in life. Is this business the most important thing?

No, right?

It's not, right? And I knew that going in, but somehow along the way you get, you know, you get twisted and you lose focus, and the business gets put at priority number one, when actually my top priority is my wife and my kids, right? My family, raising them as productive, well-rounded human beings that I like, that I like spending time with, right? As Jordan Peterson likes to say. And then, and then that, that process of kind of reevaluating and reassessing to me has been a huge part of my journey as a human being, I would say.

So, but in your situation, it required something external for you to go on that journey.

Yeah. Like, in other words, like the business reaching a point where it's very constricted and confined. Yeah. That was an impetus to this. Right. Sure. In the beginning, I think that that's right. Often how we are, because at least for me, I wasn't mature enough maybe to reach that on my own. Yes. And my hat's off to any human being who can get there on their own.

Right.

Well, I also wonder if that is that, is it possible for them to get like, like, is, or does it always require some kind of external factor to to spark that initial realization?

Well, that's certainly not been my experience. I haven't met anybody that has gone on that journey willingly, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right? Yeah.

Because, I mean, in my case, it was a painful journey, and I think our brains are very hardwired to protect us from pain. And we don't voluntarily go into pain, right? There has to be a motivation outside ourselves to do that. You might say, well, I go to the gym and I work out and I get sore. Yeah, but what's your motivation for that? It's something you're looking for outside of yourself to motivate you. And so, yeah, I think that pain threshold keeps most of us from going on that journey.

Yeah.

I do, like you said, I think it does get easier, right? Yes. As you realize you're gonna survive emotionally, psychologically, physically, you say, well, okay, and you see the benefit of it, right? You see— Yeah. The benefit of the insight that you have, you're like, well, okay, I— this isn't so bad. I'll do some more of that.

Right. I have to go back and listen. You know, we're in this time period in history where, you know, podcasts and YouTube, you know, long, long-form Joe Rogan style. And I listen to a lot of those, and then I forget where I've heard things.

Yes.

So it's hard to attribute things that I do. Who was this? Was it right, some guest Joe had on his show?

Right.

But, uh, but I think, you know, in, in the last few years, um, I've been hearing, you know, a lot of different things talking about how, you know, pain is, is actually a better motivator than like happiness or, or enjoyment. Like, more real deep change happens from pain.

100%.

And I think that's so true. And, and the reason why that's significant to say maybe is, is that, that our concept is that We hope and our desires that our lives would be easy and filled with joy and happiness and these high experiences all the time. But actually, those don't yield much fruit in our lives in terms of change for the better. Yeah. And therefore, when you say things, and I agree with that statement, like it gets easier. Easier doesn't mean less pain. Correct. It just means I'm more familiar with that pain. Yes. And I'm not as afraid of that pain as I once was. Yes. Because when you first experience that pain, you don't know how long is this pain going to happen? How deep?

Am I going to survive it?

Am I going to make it? What am I going to have to do to make this go away? And then as you go through that, more and more in all areas of your life, you realize that it becomes more of a companion of yours. Oh, here you are again. Yes.

I see you, my old friend.

Yeah. Let's do this together. I know what it's going to take. And the period of fighting against it shortens.

Yes.

You don't fight against it so long. Sometimes I find myself still fighting against it, but I begin to even recognize those ways in which I'm fighting against it. Yes. Even counter to my desire to embrace it.

Yes.

It's like even sometimes the pain comes and I'm fighting it. Yes. Contrary to my own desire to not fight it.

Right. It's your initial reaction.

An involuntary reaction almost. Right., but I can recognize those signs of involuntary resistance even sooner, the more I've gone through it. And that's where it becomes almost something weirdly that I can enjoy.

Consider it pure joys, my brother. James is always a good quote. I had someone described it as this book scrapes the soul. So if you were going to go back to your younger self, what, regarding these conversations we've had, what, if anything, could you tell yourself? And while you're thinking about that, I'm going to relate my own story because I was just talking to my business coach about this, and the example I used was Peach, I remember a few years ago, I had told him, I said, I want to create an external board of directors because I want to get insight into my business that I don't have insight just from us that are in it every day. And he said to me, he said, I think you need a business coach. And because it was Piëch and I respected him, I didn't completely scoff at him and laugh. I just went, huh, okay. And I put that away in my brain somewhere.

And when was this?

This was 4 years ago.

Okay.

And I don't know what I did with it. It was in my memory somewhere. I didn't start working with my business coach until like 2 years later. But what I realized was, you know, I wasn't— and I can think of a lot of other instances on my journey where I wasn't willing to hear what I needed to hear. Like someone, I think even if I went back in time and told myself like, hey, look, I know you real well. You know, you need to listen to this advice.

Yeah.

I don't know if I would. So with that, what would you say to your younger self?

Yeah, actually, that's really interesting that you said that. So the first thing I was going to say is that I would only hope that my younger self would listen to me.

Right.

Yeah. And even if he did, would he be able to receive what I was even telling him. I hope he would. And what came to mind to me was also what you said about advice. Maybe I'm being prideful even right now, but I would not describe my younger self as a very prideful individual.

Okay.

I think I've always tried to be very approachable, and I wouldn't have described myself as arrogant. I would describe myself, and others around me have, as a very confident individual.

I used to call it a plum. Yes.

Okay. A plum. Yes. And I would say a kind of confidence approaching arrogance, but I would say in maybe a healthy way, in the sense that you've got to believe in yourself. You've got to pick a direction and go that way. Wrong, right, and different. Like, guys, this is where we're going. I believe this is the right way. So that kind of level. But mixed in there, when I look back at some of my most recent realizations, I wish I would have been more proactive in seeking out a business coach and advice from other people. And. And I can tell you that I purposely didn't, and I don't exactly know why. Like, I think part of it was I wanted to achieve success on my own, right?

That somehow asking someone else's advice would cheapen your success, would cheapen it, right?

Would cheapen, like, even my feeling about the success. Well, I only got here because Right. You know? Yeah. And I've just, I've struggled with that in the past a little bit too, with like working with my dad in the business is like, well, are people just going to think that I'm in this business because my dad started it? Right. I'm not a real entrepreneur because he started the business.

Right.

I find myself still having that thought and having to kick it out of my brain. And that's one of the reasons why in the past, I know I did it here too. But I didn't do it for the— for that reason. I tell the LeatherSeats.com entrepreneurial story. Yes. Instead of— yes, the IT company entrepreneurial story, because I was always worried that people would think I wasn't a real entrepreneur.

Right.

You didn't really— you just inherited this business from your dad, right? So, so there was maybe some of that mixed in there. Um, I've been, I've been an entrepreneur for long enough where that doesn't bother me at all anymore. Like, Yeah, but that person— I know what I've, I've put into this business. I know, and I don't need anybody else to, to justify that for, for me. Right. Um, but my younger self, I would say it's, it's a whole like amalgam of mixture of different like little emotions and thoughts and things. So one was that, you know, regarding maybe I wanted the success to be 100% mine and I didn't want to have to give credit to anybody else. And again, not from a prideful thing, but just like you needed it for me. I wanted to look back from the peak of the mountain and be like, it was me. I got here and I did it. And I realize now, I think that that's just a bunch of crap. Yeah.

The entrepreneurial community is critical because, you know, however that manifests itself for individuals, but having those trusted individuals that you can share experience and feelings. And I mean, it's, I'd say no one wants to go on this journey of life alone, but as an entrepreneur, it's oftentimes hard to find people that you can relate to, right? So, you know, I find myself going to social events that are not entrepreneurial attended, and it's like the conversation just bores me to tears. Like they're talking about things that I have no interest in, right? And it's hard for me to get engaged. So it's hard to find those, entrepreneurial communities where you can truly talk about what you need to talk about.

For whatever reason, I think, and maybe it's my business, I have developed a way to get around any of that feeling. I go into other businesses all the time and ask them all kinds of questions, and I love getting that engagement. It's almost like we're having a little mini podcast session right there, just me and you, and I'm learning all about your business. Or I'm learning about your role, or I'm— and so, uh, but, but I can see that I would be that way if I didn't have that.

Well, but, but, you know, so I, I have a similar— oh yeah, I have a similar experience being, you know, talking to business owners and having those high-level kind of conversations. Yes, you absolutely— that, that does fulfill some of that. But I can't go to my client and say, you know what, I, I really struggled to make payroll last week. And, you know, I mean, there are certain things you can't talk about in those situations.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so, so stepping back into that question about what I would tell my, my younger self, I think it would be like, you know, stop thinking that, that you, that it'll cheapen your success to go out and learn from these other entrepreneurs. Go ask them, go ask them every single question you can, you know, go seek them out, go interview them, go ask them for them, for some coaching advice. I don't know why I felt that way. There's no reason to go repeat all their mistakes simply so that they'll be yours.

Yeah. No, I mean, that's one of the things that I find so beautiful about the forum experience in EO. Is that there isn't advice. So it's, it's not me telling you, Josh, well, this is how you need to fix your situation. Rather, it's here's my experience and what I wish I would have done differently and what I did right, what I did wrong. Then I still, I still own the outcome. Like, to your point, like, if someone gives you advice and you follow it or don't follow it, it's not necessarily yours.

Yeah.

But if someone gives you their experience and you take it and you use it, it's 100% yours, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Another big thing for me looking back was thinking that everyone thinks like me, but not realizing it, not really realizing that I thought that way. Like, if you ask me, does everyone think like you? I'd be like, of course not. And on some level, I would agree with that, right?

Right.

But I had two great experiences to kind of teach me this.

Yes.

One was not in my business. Okay. So I had some buddies start a used car business.

Okay.

A used car dealership. And of course, the cool thing about having entrepreneurial buddies is that you're pretty much a board member, even if you're not a board member. Right. You're unpaid. Yeah, I'm unpaid and, and it's fun to go out there and watch them launch this business even though I've got no skin in the game at all. And that's what happened here. Like they, they went, they're going to, we're going to go do this thing. And I kind of was like, well, I want to be in, you know, part of it. But, but anyway, just, you know, it didn't work out.

Right.

Right. And I could see like I've got nothing to add to this, like to their ventures. It's really not fair for me to be a part of this.

Right.

I'm not adding any value. Uh, but I learned a great lesson. So, so they launched this business and they're talking about all the things that are important to us because we're car guys, right?

Right.

A lot of— some of these guys were in, you know, the leather seats automotive business. So we know cars forward, backward, and sideways. I mean, we've been in the industry for forever and a lot of our customers are, are, are car guys all day long. Car guys. So they launched this car business and we're talking about all the things about like the buying experience and finding, helping you find a car and all the things that we value. Right. Turns out none of those things are important to anybody. Right. The most important thing is, is how much money they happen to have in the bank at that moment. Right. If they happen to be like in a buying mood, would all the paperwork get done fast enough?

Right.

and how much the car payment was going to be.

Right.

And could we, you know, pay off their other car? It was all, all of it. That was, it was, was none of it was important to me or them or anything. So we had, they had launched this whole car dealership with all these kind of underlying principles and, and this whole buying experience. I think they sold like 2 cars. Right. Over 6 months or something like that. I mean, it was—

it was awful.

It was an abysmal failure. Right. And everybody walked away going, wow, we had no idea that that's what people were going to be like. You know, like, they're just different.

Yeah. I think that's— I think that bias that we have as business owners, one in general about how we look at the world, but to in terms of what we think our customers or clients think or value, right? And, and that's, uh, that is a, a hard hurdle to get over because you, unless you understand and, and can express your client or customer's problem in terms that they would express it. Yeah. Not how you would express it.

Yeah.

You don't really understand what, what it is that you're solving.

And I was resistant to, to learning that about people, right? Like, I did not want it to be that way. I wanted— they wanted to be more like you, even though it wasn't. Yeah, I wanted them to be like me. I wanted them to like come in and kind of know what already car they want, and they want this color, and and this year, and this would be really important for me to have. And, and none of them were that way. And I was so frustrated, right, to learn that, you know, right. Even though I wasn't, you know, in the business, even on their behalf, like they were. And, and the way that affected me in my business was it kept me from marketing my business in a lot of ways. Yeah. That I should have embraced years earlier. Yeah. Because I was resistant and didn't want my customers to be that way. I wanted them to be far more, I don't know, far more educated about what I did or sold or the products that I— Right. Or to value them more. You know, like when you look across the street and your competitors advertising that they have, you know, it's now in blue and you're like, it's always been in blue. It's always been available in blue.

Right.

What do you mean? It's now available in blue. Right. And it just makes you angry. Like, that's just stupid. Right. Yet 100 people are walking in over there to buy the new blue, whatever it is. Right. That makes me mad.

But that, that's interesting because I, I've, I've seen a prevalent problem among entrepreneurs in marketing in general. Just, just how to market their business and I'm wondering if it is that mindset prism we're looking through. Because even if you say it made you angry that they advertised it in blue, it's like, it shouldn't be that way, but that's the way it is. Right. That really sticks in her craw, so to speak.

It does. And I think when I unpacked that and looked at it in a much deeper way, and I realized, look, the world is the way the world is., right? And either you embrace it or you resist it. And, um, and I, I've coached other entrepreneurs in this way. I've, you know, told them, look, you know, either you have to come to the world as it is, or you're a Steve Jobs. Yeah. And you're gonna release something that's gonna change the way the whole world buys or consumes something.. Right. So right now you probably should consider, am I Steve Jobs? Am I going to be the guy that like completely overhauls the way the whole universe, right? Probably every known human purchases music and video and apps. Right. Am I that guy? Because if you're not, but you're behaving like you're going to be that guy, then you're really not operating in reality.

Yeah. Well, Josh, thank you very much for taking time and sharing with us today. I'd love to have you back on later and go deeper on a couple of these other subjects, but—

Yeah, that's fine.

Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.