Lead Like a Drug Addict: Michael Brody-Waite

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Very excited to welcome to the program author, TEDx speaker, business owner, entrepreneur Michael Brody Waite. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Thanks, man. Thanks for having me.

So I kind of alluded to this when I lured you onto the program.

Lured? You were fishing?

Yes, I did. Well, you know, as a podcast host, sometimes it's difficult to get people on your show, right? But I, I, um, I'm in Entrepreneurs Organization, as are you, and our chapter is having one of your minions come and present. Uh, unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to go because—

actually, it's me now.

I'm going to do it now. I'm really pissed. Yeah. Um, in any case, the chapter, uh, sent us all books, right? And I just get this random book. I didn't know you were coming. I didn't know who you were. But I was intrigued by the title of Great Leaders Live Like Drug Addicts. I'm like, okay, that's catchy. I started reading it. And almost immediately, I was like, oh, I've got to have him on the show. Now, here's the rest of that story. I routinely read 3 or 4 books at a time, in addition to the fiction that I read. But like books I'm reading, I don't know, my ADD kicks in. But about two-thirds of the way, I stopped reading your book. And I set it down in my pile. And I finally got back to it after you had agreed to be on the show. And I read the end. And I'm like, oh, God, I would have missed the best part of the story if I hadn't read the end of your book. So, You know, I don't know if you're here wanting to promote the book, but I think maybe the audience might benefit from a little overview of your story.

Oh, sure. I get that a lot with the last chapter. I should have put it in the beginning.

No, the hook is great. That rewards the readers.

Yes. I appreciate that. Okay, so the high level for my story. Um, I'm a drug addict. So like, that's the most important thing that anybody can know about me. Um, I was hopelessly addicted to alcohol and drugs. Um, at the age of 23, I'd been kicked out of college, fired from my job, evicted from my home. My car had been repossessed. The only money I had was what I could steal from my friends, and I was throwing up blood. So like, that was my life. And, um, I got an opportunity that not everybody gets, and I got to go to rehab. And in rehab, I learned a couple of principles that were meant to save my life.

Mm-hmm.

But those principles then taught me how to lead myself in life, and then they taught me how to lead others. And one of the things that I realized was most of my brothers and sisters in recovery thought they had to use different principles to lead at work. And I started applying those principles to lead at work. And, um, you know, I can't believe it, right? Like, I thought I'd be dead at the age of 23 for sure. Um, everybody hated me. Uh, I was a liar. I, you know, I just, I sucked. And now I've been able to, you know, I, I, I had a corporate career at Dell where I was the fastest promoted person, um, in the history of Dell Nashville. I Founded a company that became an Inc. 500 business that I sold to a public company. I took over a nonprofit where I helped 2,000 entrepreneurs a year start or grow a business. And one of my interesting observations about entrepreneurs, by the way, is they're actually a lot like drug addicts. Like, I know we have a lot of people that are addicted in the community, but like the success rates are very similar. So the litmus test for a startup is $1 million in revenue, that threshold, right? Of viability. And about 3% of companies that get started hit that threshold. Well, if you want to get clean or sober from drugs and alcohol addiction, you got about a 5% chance of getting to a year. But then interestingly, you have about a 1% chance of getting to 10 years. And so the success rates are very similar, and for very similar reasons. Um, drug addicts say yes to the wrong thing, they hide their weakness, and they avoid the difficult conversations with the people around them. And entrepreneurs that fail do the same thing. They say yes to too many things, they chase too many distractions, they, they don't share their weaknesses. So they, they don't actually talk about things that they're challenged with, which can lead to personal challenges or them not getting the help they need. And they avoid difficult conversations. They might be really good at having some, but they're really bad at having others, but they can avoid them. Um, and so when I was running this nonprofit, I had that observation and I realized like, man, I need to take everything that I learned in recovery that I kind of informally implemented in my companies and in my career and create a very specific leadership development program that translates what millions of addicts in recovery all over the world, in almost every country, in almost every language, use, and make it so that leaders can use those to more effectively lead themselves and be more successful. And now, like, you know, we've had over 30,000 leaders go through that program, so I'm a 47-year-old dude that should not be alive. I have a 5 and 7-year-old that consistently ask me the questions of, why did you drink poison? I was speaking at a conference in Vegas that was televised and someone sent the link to my wife and she showed it to my kids. And I come home to Nashville and the first thing my son says is, Daddy, why did you steal from your friends? And I realized, okay, I gotta have a conversation about that so they know that Daddy has to go to recovery meetings and all that kind of stuff. And I just— I, I stress out about things. I've got problems, I've got failures, I've got all that stuff. But I— but right now, like, I'm a walking miracle. I know that not because of the things I've accomplished in professional life, just simply because I'm not dead.

Well, thank you for sharing that. Um, I— one of my EO colleagues, had an exit in his 40s, 9 figures. So like, he didn't have to do anything. His kids didn't have to do anything. You know, it's generational money. But he decided to go back and get his doctorate in psychiatry— psychology, not psychiatry. He's not an MD. I've had him on the show a couple of times, but one of the most fascinating things, and reading your book, it just was like resonating so much with the conversation that I'd had with Piëch. Um, when he first started his doctoral, uh, work, he said, you know, uh, entrepreneurs don't have good coping mechanisms. And I'd never heard it described in a clinical term like that, but I was like, yeah, no, you're right, we don't. Um, and, and then I had this insight and I said, and And a lot of times, their business becomes their coping mechanism.

Yes, yes.

And what an absolute disaster that can turn out to be, because you control all the variables— who you hire, who you have as customers, how you spend money. And if you don't address those— I don't want to say demons, character flaws, whatever— you're going to fail. I mean, even if you succeed financially, you know, your, your marriage, your family, your health, all of these things.

The, uh, I think what you're saying— so like, one of the things I believe is that entrepreneurs are addicted to being an entrepreneur, um, and because they don't have— I completely agree, they don't have the coping mechanisms And I remember when I was building my first company, like, I, I, you know, I'm a member of EO and also I meet other entrepreneurs and I would just see a lot of people that were so obsessed with the building of their businesses and, and they would be doing it in the name of their families and their families would be falling apart, or they would have this incredible outcome, wouldn't need to do anything more, and then they'd be starting something else in the name of like buying another beach house or whatever. Whatever. Like, I mean, and I just remember watching that, and, um, I've had some of those challenges but not to the same degree, um, because I was held accountable to working a 12-step recovery program the entire building of my business. And, you know, I got, I got really lucky. So like, in, uh, when I was at Betty Ford— that was a place I went to for, for rehab— um, my roommate was a, was a guy that had been an alcoholic, had gotten sober and then stopped working his program, founded a company, built it. It became his drug, right? He took it public, and the night that he took it public, someone handed him a glass of champagne and he drank it. And so like 2 years later, he finds himself in rehab with like 23-year-old me, you know, and he's like in his 50s or whatever, and he just— he stopped working his program. So when I started my first company, um, I called him and I said, hey Jack, I love you. I love that you shared your story with me, and I'm starting a company, and so I don't want you to take offense at this, but I don't want to end up like you.

He said, I don't want you to end up like me.

Yeah, yeah. He's like, so I was like, what do I do different? He said, um, don't ever put the company ahead of your recovery. And so that meant like when I was traveling at the beginning of the building the company and I felt like there's so many things I had to do in the hotel room, go into a meeting even though I don't want to go to a meeting in a strange place where I don't know people and I don't know where the entrance to the church is and I'm scared that their brand of recovery is different than mine. I'm going to make a fool of myself in some way. Go anyway. Um, and, and so I had these, these— I had these existing coping mechanisms that I got from recovery that I was forced to use, that I was too scared of relapse to not use. And they really helped me in the, in the building of my company and staying somewhat balanced. And so like the, you know, for me, I still, I still think I, you know, I chose to, after I sold my company I could, I could technically, I could have not worked again. It wasn't so crazy that like it was like unforgotten conclusion. And I increased my lifestyle, I think, just because I needed a reason to go do more stuff. And, and my appetite for impact has always been much greater than my appetite for money. But one typically follows the other. But where I am right now is I am working really hard to try to do little because my kids are 5 and 7 and I, I don't want to miss it. And that's been the hardest thing I've ever done in my recovery, uh, outside of recovery, is like just being present, not achieving or, or trying to do stuff. And my therapist said to me like this, she said, if you were to work on a complex jigsaw puzzle every morning for 30 minutes for 20 years, your nervous system would get used to using that. To regulate. And if one day I take away that jigsaw puzzle, your nervous system doesn't know how to regulate. And she's like, you use work to regulate your nervous system. And I was like, oh, great. So everything you just said resonated with me.

I, yeah, I love that. I, I absolutely love that. Uh, Pisha's doctoral, uh, work he actually did— and I, you may have gotten the survey because he sent it out to a bunch of EO members, but He got original survey data from entrepreneurs, which was part of the problem because there's no data. Well, not no data, but like he's— he was creating brand new, a brand new wall in psychiatry because people don't— psychology, because entrepreneurs aren't very well studied. And one of the things— this wasn't what his thesis was, but one of the things that the data showed was that the longer people are entrepreneurs, the more likely they are to be emotionally fulfilled. And what he and I talked about, like, the possibility, the possible thesis there is, is that Entrepreneurship can give you a way to heal yourself. It does apply pressure that you don't receive other places. I mean, unless you're a firefighter or, you know, a Navy SEAL, you don't have that crucible of pressure. But only if you survive it. Like, it's not like if you burn out, fail, whatever. What, what's your observation? What are your thoughts on that as entrepreneurship as a way of healing yourself?

My first question would be, how did we make sure that the entrepreneurs that are disconnected from their own emotional experience didn't say that they're emotionally fulfilled and they're actually not? Yeah, that'd be my first question, but that's a whole other question. Yeah, I don't know if— because I think they convince themselves that they're fulfilled because they start checking all these boxes. And I don't think they know how to be still. Most of the entrepreneurs I, I know don't know how to be still. They don't know how to be present with themselves and comfortable in their own skin. Um, and so I think part of the problem is how are we defining emotional fulfillment. But that being said, um, the vision that I had when you were talking about this is just like making it really simple. Entrepreneurs, we are, um, people that are built to build. Mm-hmm. And you put, like you said, you put us in the pressure cooker long enough, or we have enough success, we're just, we're going to climb Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's just going to happen. Like, because the, the ones that, you know, go into the pressure cooker and get eaten up alive, like, they don't make it. They go back to, you know, not working and creating their own job and all that kind of stuff. But the ones that keep going, that are still alive, typically experience some inflection point that has a lot of pain that makes them go inward. Or they achieve so much success that they're bored, so they go inward. But either way, they go inward and they start seeking self-actualization. That's why like half the, you know, learning things that we get are like, you know, how to like be a better like human, or how to whatever, you know, here's a, here's a chapter learning event on AI and here's a chapter learning event on how to find your purpose. You know, like, you know, we, we balance all that. But I think, I don't think we, we are so driven by momentum and by forward progress and the delta between where we are and where we want to be and the optimization and growing of those things that we just don't know how to be still. And so we can convince ourselves we're achieving emotional fulfillment as we check boxes and we do all those things. But there's a lot of people that go on all these retreats, achieve all these things, and they take their own life. And you go, what the hell happened? Um, and I think the real question— I mean, uh, you know, someone said, uh, wars are, are started because a man— which is sexist, but still— but a man cannot sit quietly in a dark room, um, with his own thoughts. And, you know, and so I just wonder how much of it is we have this like nuclear energy that serves us really well, and if we don't move it towards self-actualization, then it destroys us.

I think, I think that's a great analogy. I want to pivot to your book. I love your book. As a matter of fact, we had our—

Thank you.

Leadership Quarterly 2 weeks ago, and we did that as our team building exercise. We did the first step in your Unmasked program. And when I read it, because that's at the beginning of the book and that's what really resonated with me. The idea of masks. As an aside, I asked a pastor to come and record. I've never had a clergy on here. But I said, I told him about you, I told him about your book. And he had just preached about Jacob. And, you know, Jacob's name, Yakov, I think, in Hebrew, means grasper. And the whole sermon was on how Jacob was a swindler, like he wore a mask. I think he actually used that terminology. And I'm like, oh, God, I got to have this paradigm, right? The spiritual and the practical. Talk about masks. What are masks?

Um, so masks, and you know, I wrote my book a little while ago and, and, uh, I published it in May of 2020 when everybody was pissed off about masks thanks to the pandemic.

So let's talk about those.

I started, I started talking about it more in more, uh, vague terms, and then I started working with companies and speaking. And, and so, um, I don't even remember exactly what I said in my book But I know what my heart— I know, I know. That's me being mask-free right there. I know my heart was— I, when I took over the Nashville Entrepreneur Center, I did not realize how political of a nonprofit it was. I just wanted to help entrepreneurs. And because it was funded by the government and the business community, it was highly political. And I really struggled with that. And I had a lot of people say I had a very different leadership style., and they were really attracted to it. And I kept trying to explain that I'm just like being what I was taught in recovery, right? And so that's where I started thinking about writing my book. But I was like, how do you— how do you— authenticity is a very nebulous term. It's conceptual, it's subjective, it's qualitative. It's how do you know where it starts and stops? People, people literally will be like, hey man, I'm just being authentic, and they're not. Or people are being authentic in one moment, not in the other. And so I just started thinking about like, well, I think to get clear what it looks like, what does it look like when someone is not being authentic? Because that was my obsession. I hated being in corporate America. Like, I don't know if it's my wiring as a recovering addict, as an entrepreneur, I don't know. But when I meet someone, my first quest is to understand, can you be frickin real? Because if not, I do not want to spend any time with you. You, right, whatsoever. And when I say real, I don't mean like you name-check a challenge. I mean like you're willing to say, I'm Mike, I'm a drug addict, on stage in front of 2,000 people type of real, right? Like, because that's the kind of stuff that I was taught. And so I would find myself in all these rooms with all these really impressive people just basically wanting to be like, are you as committed to being authentic as I am? And I was really disappointed. And so I just started imagining people wearing masks and just like taking them off and they take them back on— they take them on They take them off. But it's— to me, it's when you're not being true to yourself in word or action, usually out of fear for what someone else will think or what, what could, could happen to you or could not happen to you in some way. And so like the principles in my book are practice rigorous authenticity, which is a commitment to wearing— not wearing a mask. But the reason that people do it is because they're scared of an outcome. They're scared they're going to lose something they have. They're scared they're not going to get something they want or something bad is going to happen to them. There's some sort of outcome that will happen if they're real. You know, if I'm honest about being a drug addict early in my career at corporate America, am I going to get passed over for a promotion? If I'm an entrepreneur and I fire like my, you know, employee number 5 that's not hacking it, are they going to tell everybody else I'm a disloyal entrepreneur? Like, I'm going to have some outcome I'm scared of. And then most people, they wait till the pain is great enough, and then they're willing to actually do the thing that's being authentic. But usually they will hide. And if they're really authentic about their work, they're— they hide about their personal life. And if they're really authentic about their personal life, they, they hide about their work or whatever. But I just like— I imagine the world and I just see people like— it's, it's, it's our desire to fit in, it's our desire to, uh, survive, um, kind of like a deer that doesn't let you know, like a dog that doesn't let you know it's hurt, right? Like that kind of deal. But it's just people thinking that they need to lie on some level, even unconsciously, about what they think, who they are, what they've done, instead of just being real. And I don't mean real in a moment. So many people keep it real in a moment. I mean a lifelong commitment to dropping the mask entirely, the way that I had to drop drugs. You know what I mean? I don't pick them up every once in a while, you know, just for the fun of it. Right. So to me, that's kind of what it looks like.

I love that explanation. I can think that there was a point when I was younger where I said I wanted to be a person of integrity. And to me, that meant being the same person wherever I was. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't want to be one person at work, one person at home, one person around my church group, one one person around my EO friend. Like, I didn't want to be different people different places. Um, I think there's, there's a certain amount of maybe, uh, harmless masks that people wear to like absolutely fit in, like speak a certain way or on certain topics, like to kind of go along to get along. But I, being an entrepreneur, I'm kind of almost the exact opposite. I've had to rein in— like, I don't know that I was ever intentionally offensive, but I really didn't care if I offended you. And I would speak my mind. And I probably got some joy out of watching people get riled up, if we're going to be honest about it. But, you know, I've kind of backed off of that and been more conscious of what I say in terms of like, I don't want to be a dick about it, right? Yeah. But I was just having this conversation today with one of my leadership team, and I told her, I said, you know, you're being too nice. And I'm not here to unpack why you're trying to be too nice, but you've got to change that behavior. You can't be this nice to your subordinate or to this vendor because it's screwing you and by proxy is screwing the company. So you've got to be a little more of a dick. I mean, I like— how do you navigate that authenticity without being abrasive?

Um, I don't know that the goal is to not be abrasive. The goal is to not do, um, harm. Um, and the goal is to not, uh, cost ourselves things that we care about. And so, like, you know, the way that, um, I teach this stuff today is a little different than what I wrote in the book, because what I wrote in the book was for individuals. And I've now had the opportunity to implement this process in, like, hundreds of companies, and One of the things we do is we identify like, okay, so let's say, let's say Bill has a direct report and her name is Sally and Sally isn't performing.

Mm-hmm.

And Bill's avoiding holding her accountable because she's a favorite. She's nice. Everybody loves her. He knows she's got some personal stuff going on. She's been with the company forever. She really loves the clients. Like, whatever. She's— he's got all the stories. So what people typically think is, I hope that Sally just gets better, and then that's hurting everybody, right? So then what happens is Bill just waits for when the pain is great enough. And I've said this is like the second or third time I've said that, because that's the only— that is what it takes for a drug addict to stop doing drugs, when the pain becomes great enough. And so they'll wait till the pain gets great enough that all of a sudden it's understandable to have an uncomfortable conversation with her. We wait for all the collateral damage to give us the get out of jail free card for being a dick. And when in reality we just don't know how to communicate difficult, like, difficult conversations. So like, for example, what I do with a Bill today is I say, okay, let's look at your side of the street. What's your problem? I'm agreeing. I'm, I am accepting. I'm saying yes to suboptimal performance. Okay. 'Who are you doing that with?' 'Sally.' 'Okay, cool.' That's actually the first two steps in the process I teach to companies. Number three, how much time is this costing you? Because time is a universal currency inside of every organization. We literally rent it from our employees. And he's like, 'You know, it's probably costing me like 4 hours a week.' Okay, sounds small, but that's 200 hours plus Not insignificant. Not insignificant. Okay. And this is just Sally. And if you're having a difficult conversation with Sally, you're avoiding difficult conversations with other people. Okay, then we have them calculate. We say, okay, now what's your highest value activity in this organization, Bill? Okay, let's just say it's business development, it's selling, it's getting people to buy our product. Okay. And if you spent 200 incremental hours over the course of a year selling, how much more revenue do you think you generate? Oh, at least 10%. Okay, well, how much did you do last year? $2 million. Okay, $200,000. So now we've actually identified— we've translated this nebulous concept of uncomfortable work that you're avoiding, a mask you're wearing by tolerating this suboptimal performance. And now we actually have a cost we've quantified, which is how we translate this into an imperative in business. Your uncomfortable work is costing you $200,000. And then we say, I know, and I'm just going to fast forward for you. You're still not going to do it. You're still not going to do it because there's a difference between knowing what to do and having the emotion. That's why I call it uncomfortable work. Hard work is physical. Smart work is intellectual. Uncomfortable work is emotional. And emotions are not logical. And so we end up avoiding the things that we need to do, not out of logic, but out of emotional avoidance. Same reason that a drug addict uses drugs. And so then what I do is I say, okay, Bill, like, what are you scared of? And he's like, well, I'm scared that, that Sally will think I'm, I'm a dick. Okay. And then what are you scared happens after that? And this is actually like a process that I teach. Oh, well, I'm scared that she'll leave us.

Okay.

And then that's not actually your fear, Bill. What? It's not my fear? No. You actually have this thing called a death or doom script that is a persistent fight or flight message that you acquired in your childhood, early in your career, through a life circumstance, through society or something, that this is actually activating for you right now. We do enough work in— and mine is no matter how much success I have, no matter what I do, If I'm avoiding uncomfortable work, it's because at the root I'm scared I'm going to be homeless. Somehow this is going to make me homeless. And so we find out what his childhood trauma is that made him like have this like persistent messaging. And he goes, the company will fail if she— like he thinks she's going to leave. Okay. And then we say, great, what is the objective probability that if you performance manage Sally so that you get 200 hours back a year so that you can generate $200,000 in incremental revenue, What is the objective probability that the company will fail? Oh, it's like a 1 out of 10. But how uncomfortable does it feel having this conversation with Sally? Oh, like a 10 out of 10. And then I have this little equation where it populates, it says my fear of the outcome is 1,000% greater than it actually deserves. And now Bill has gone from, oh, I know I should have this conversation or whatever, to actually being able to sort through all these things that are actually true And then I have him write it into a script where he actually goes— and this is similar to probably what you saw in Chapter 7 of the book— but where he goes to Sally, he goes, my fear, I have a difficult conversation I have to have with you. And my fear is that it will demotivate you and that you might leave. I say yes to your suboptimal performance. It costs me 200 hours a year.

Mm-hmm.

If I reinvested that time, in selling, it would get us $200,000 a year.

Mm-hmm.

And so as a result, I want to have this conversation with you. And in getting clear on those variables and then structuring the conversation that way, we've just done a couple of things that almost never happens when people go have these conversations. Number one, we've disarmed Sally because we led with our fear. And when you lead with vulnerability, when you lead with a fear, human beings immediately connect to it. They become disarmed and they assume what's known as positive intent. And so, and they can usually empathize and relate to the fear of losing somebody, right? And so now they hear everything through a very positive lens. Then you say, I say yes to suboptimal performance. This is what it costs me. You're not saying anything about Sally. You're just talking about your side of the street, right? And you've translated into business terms, right? Then you say, here's the, the action, the uncomfortable action that I need to take so that we can be successful. And I've quantified that in a number that, you know, that we all care about, because in business we are typically aligned around numbers. And all of a sudden Sally takes it a different way. Most people do not have the skill to do that over and over and over and over again, so they just put on the masks to try to like manage through everything because they don't know how to do that. Does that make sense?

No, it makes perfect sense. And I, I think that's actually, uh, you, as I'm sitting here listening to your story, I'm like, the advice that I gave my leadership team member is probably the exact opposite of what I should have, because mine was, you know, you need to be clear that, you know, these, these people's jobs are on the line. But, but if, if, you know, that still needs to be communicated. But if you lead with my fear of like, if, if you don't succeed, I'm not going to succeed. You're, you're, you're not doing your job. I am ultimately responsible for, and that scares me. That, that casts it in a completely different light.

It changes it. The other thing, though, is, is that in an organization you need to create psychological safety.

Mm-hmm.

And the two things and what I described that creates a psychological safety for the, for the difficult action that needs to occur. Let me take a step back. So sometimes people will be like, they'll lead with their fear and they won't do the other parts. And the other person will be like, well, I hear that you're scared to have that conversation, but we— I can't hold this vendor accountable or, or whatever. Like they go into their feelings. So to create the psychological safety, to have the conversation and keep someone grounded in actually what is going to make us successful as an organization, the part where Bill— I can't even remember the names I made up just now, but, uh, I was paying— Bill was the one communicating it to Sally, right? The one where Bill is communicating to Sally, he's quantifying in time. There's two universal numbers in every business. There's some outcome number we're all aligned around, and there's— we're all spending time to get there. And if you don't translate that, like, how you're— what— whatever their problem is, how this is affecting you in terms of the the universal resource that we're all using into a quantifiable number, then they don't appreciate the actual consequence. Because how many times have you heard people be like, I say yes to too many meetings, I say yes to too many— well, how— when you say it's 10 hours, suddenly that's— that's— it's very clear how much of our resources we're wasting. And then if you don't convert that into what we could be achieving, what we could be achieving, they'll think, like, as an example, that you're saying no to them instead of saying yes to us. And so you have to engage both the emotional centers and the intellectual centers and both the individual dynamic and the collective dynamic through that little process that I just walked through. And it allows that person to go, oh, okay, I'm scared of the vendor getting upset or leaving, but I'm actually costing us $200,000. And the vendor, if they leave, it only costs us $20,000. Now they're able to actually reason through these things and puts them in a— it puts build a great conversation, have a conversation with Sally, and then hopefully she has a conversation with the vendor or whatever it is, right? But I don't think you did anything wrong. But I think the challenge is in that communication, there's nothing to disarm the emotional reaction to all of this stuff and the spinning that can occur internally.

Yes. Uh, one of the things I learned in my, uh, marriage therapy was how to communicate my feelings, which you'd think at like 48 or 50 I would have figured that out.

But no, man, most 48 and 50-year-olds haven't, right?

Well, and, and it's, it's so— I had a conversation with my wife just this morning where, uh, she, she started to— she was, she was upset by something that I did. It was a minor thing. But, and she wasn't that mad. But she came at me and said, if I did that to you, you'd be upset. Right? And I'm like, hold on a second. And she says, well, I'm just trying to tell you how I feel. And I'm like, no, this is what telling me how you feel sounds like. When you do this, I feel this way. Not this is how you'd behave if you were in a similar situation, right? And we've been working on this for several years, and it's not like, you know, we haven't been trying and improving, but like, it's— it is difficult work. It's, it's not— it's not, uh, at least for me and her, it's not automatic. I mean, I, I just— being able to communicate how you feel in a, quote, safe, end quote, way, um, is hard sometimes. A lot of times.

Well, especially if there isn't an explicit social contract that we do that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like, we're always, like, taking risk. Oh, like, we all say we want to say the thing, but do you really mean it?

Right.

Do we really do this? Do we do this about these issues? Do we do it in public? Do we do it in private? Do, do our friends do it? Do this? And all of a sudden, it becomes a little less clear because you have a relationship with your wife and you have this and you guys want to have good communication, all stuff, but we're being programmed by a world that doesn't want to have direct communication.

No, there's layers upon layers of deceit. Yes. One of the phrases I learned in EO that I just love was, are you going to have that conversation or am I? So you're having this conversation with a subordinate and they're basically going through the problem and they're like, this is the thing that I need to say. It's like, great. Are you going to have that conversation or am I going to have it with them? And it's along that same vein. I, um, it's interesting, we just did the— so, so the first, the first part of your Unmask program is, is understanding your mask and the fear behind it, and then the cost. Yeah. Yep. Um, and when we did this exercise as a leadership team, I had one, I had one member of my team, uh, actually end up in tears, and, and, and was not expecting that. But the, the mask that she wore was essentially no-conflict people-pleasing. Yeah. The underlying fear was she didn't want to disappoint anybody.

Yep.

And she said, when I was a kid, I quit something. And I remember my dad saying to me, that I was a disappointment. Yep. And that's when she started crying. She's like, I don't want to feel that way again. Right? Yes. But it was this beautiful moment of insight for her of like, where, where is this behavior coming from? Why am I doing this thing that I know that I don't really want to do, or that it has negative consequences? Why am I doing it?

That's the— so when I teach this, one of the things that I talk about is, um, so let's just come out of like leadership for a second. I'm gonna go into— take— come with me into addiction and recovery for a second. Okay. So when, when I was in active addiction, I had the knowledge that drugs were bad. And that what I was doing was bad. I attended the D.A.R.E. program. Totally didn't work, by the way. And, you know, I had all the knowledge and sometimes I was able to execute that knowledge.

Mm-hmm.

One time, and this dates me because I've got, you you know, I've been in recovery since 2002, but I was, I was one of the earliest, uh, subscribers to Netflix back when they would send you the DVDs in the mail.

Yes.

And I had this vision that I could stop putting, you know, I was drinking a fifth of vodka a day, um, 2 12-packs of beer a day, an eighth of weed a day, painkillers, mushrooms, 2 packs of cigarettes a day. I'm putting all this poison in my body, and I'm like, man, I bet I could stop doing that if I just watched a movie every night. You know, because I would start at night a lot of times, and, and I love movies. And so like the first night I watch a movie and, and I don't get, you know, drunk and high. Second night I watch a movie, I don't get drunk and high. And third night I'm watching this movie, I'm like, you know, go great with this movie, and I get drunk and high, right? And so the problem is, is that we often know the things that we need to do to lead ourselves. Like, that person knows that she needs to have difficult conversations with people And then what happens is we get a— we create this illusion of we can execute that because we do. The 2 days in which I executed not using drugs and alcohol, I used as an excuse for the next 365. Anytime someone said you should stop doing drugs and alcohol, be like, I could stop anytime I want. I can tell you about those 2 nights, you know, back in February of last year where I chose not to. So I don't actually have a problem I can execute this any time I want. And the problem is, is that we used to live in a world where knowledge was sufficient to drive execution. You know, if there was a training on sales or something like that, like we'd all get a ticket to the ballroom and they give us a crappy meal and they give us a piece of paper with the sales tips and we walk out like it's like gold or something, right? And then we go do it. But we had sayings like knowledge is power. The more you know for us and for for those of us in addiction and recovery. And the problem is, is that there's been an inverse in the information economy. Now information's everywhere, so much so that it paralyzes us to take action, yet we keep chasing knowledge as if that's a prerequisite for the action that's so common sense that we already know that we need to do it. And then we read a book that makes it more accessible or motivates us or something like that, and we go execute it for a minute. So like, undoubtedly that person on your team is like, had a difficult conversation, with someone, you know, and when it was a New Year's resolution time or it was painful enough, or they saw Tony Robbins, you know, TikTok or something, they got inspired and they did it. Um, and that's great, but it creates this illusion that we're actually leading ourselves. But you know what is the magic when it comes to truly leading yourself, doing all the uncomfortable work? It's not the knowledge, it's not the execution, it's the frequency by which you execute what you know. For me, the difference between me and the people I'll go speak to when I'm at, um, EO is if they're normal people, they can all go to the bar later and have some drinks. The frequency by which I would have those drinks are what are caused my problem. The difference between me and the, uh, 99 other people that got clean when I did that didn't make it is a frequency by which I went to meetings and talked to my sponsor and worked my steps. Frequency is the magic. And so like when I look inside of a team, I look inside of a human, forget like the business element, anybody that's not fully realizing their potential, they're out there chasing knowledge because it feels good. They're out there chasing knowledge because it's novel, because it's a great excuse to retreat into the intellect. But I guarantee you, someone who's not realizing their potential, 9 times out of 10, they already know what they need to do. They've done it. They're just not doing it at the frequency that they need to. And so the cool thing is, what if you could join a club where we redefine our expectations for ourselves at 100%?

Hmm.

Like that, that person on your team that is— that, that has gone through a life where sealed into her nervous system early on was, if I disappoint somebody, I'm at risk of not surviving. Because if you upset your parents, you're at risk of not surviving. And so no matter what you give her in the books and the trainings and the knowledge, all that kind of stuff, her nervous system, when she thinks she has to have a difficult conversation, still says please in order to be okay. But what if you inverse that dynamic? And what if, if, if we can create a world in which drug addicts by the millions have figured out how to achieve the frequency of 100% of the time they don't put alcohol and drugs in their body, certainly we can get to a point where we can create a culture inside of a company where we have all of the difficult conversations, all of them, 100%. You're not allowed to escape them. You're not allowed to not have them. Right. And it starts from the top. I have to have all the difficult conversations with the people that aren't having the difficult conversations. And now we're in the movie Inception. I feel like I'm 3 levels down. Leonardo DiCaprio is trying to install—

Who's Leonardo in this situation?

Yeah, I don't know. Not me. Not me for sure. Definitely. But, but so, so it's all— so the thing is, is that we can try to get that person to understand this stuff and to execute it, but her nervous system still tells her that she's not safe. But what if— what if you were not safe because you avoided them? Mm-hmm. Now we give that person an incentive and a reason to actually step through it. And that's really what we're doing with drug addicts all over the country. And that's really what I want to do with leaders is I really just want to inverse all these social dynamics so that it's, it's not safe to not lead yourself. It's not safe to not do your uncomfortable work. And I'm not actually one of creating a threatening environment. It's just, it's interesting. Like you hang out with a bunch of drug addicts in a meeting and we use the fact that we could all die as the greatest motivator to do all the hard things, right? So like, one of the things in all my companies, um, that I've ever advised or whatever, or I built myself, is I tell people, you can't get fired for speaking an uncomfortable truth, but you will get fired if you don't. And that gives them excuse, because their brain, when they want to speak an uncomfortable truth, their brain says, I could get fired. But now I've just interrupted that, because now I'm literally saying, no, you're gonna get fired if you don't. And it actually is like, oh, it's permission. I used to have— this is like totally not HR appropriate, but in my first company, I wanted everybody to take a half day on Friday for work-life balance purposes. And then inevitably they didn't do it. So I put a calendar invite starting at 12 that said, if you're in the office, I will kill you. Now, this is like before mass shootings and stuff, like not an appropriate thing to do or whatever, but I was literally just trying to be like, I will put you on a pip. Like, I will, like, whatever, because that strangely gives them safety, because it's literally the thing they're scared of. It gives them safety in taking the action that feels so unpopular. And now what you're doing is you're redefining a social contract.

That is absolutely brilliant. Um, I, I, we, we kind of have glossed over the second step, which is, uh, releasing the outcomes you can't control. Yep. And coming to clarity around what it is you can and can't control.

Yep.

Can you speak to that?

Yeah, absolutely. So, so if the first step is practice your greatest authenticity, get clear of all the things that you need to do that you're not doing. And actually, step 3 is do the uncomfortable work. It's the actual execution of that, right? The magic is in the middle. It's that emotional layer. It's, it's how do you surrender the fear? How do you surrender the outcome? Well, one of the ways that I teach people to do that is actually what I talk about within the Bill and Sally dynamic, where we calculate it, like how, what's the percentage. But the other thing, that's for the emotion, for the intellect, very simple exercise. And this is something that anybody that's ever heard the Serenity Prayer will say, I know this. Mm-hmm. But there's a difference between knowing and doing. And indulge me, if anybody's listening to this and there's something that, you know, you need to do that's uncomfortable and you're scared to do it, actually do exactly what I prescribe and you'll be surprised at how you feel at the end. It's completely different than if you just nod along as I describe this and you mentally do it. Like, so the first thing is get out a piece of paper and write can't control in the top left and can control in the top right. And so let's go back to, you know, Bill have to have a performance conversation with Sally, if that's still her name. I don't know. And, and so his fear is he's going to demotivate her, that she's going to leave, all that kind of stuff. So the first thing that we want you to do is in the can't control column, write down 3 things about this that you can't control and literally write it because it's something about getting it out of your head. There's science around that. I don't know the exact science. Science, but there— I know that there's science around it. Uh, ChatGPT told me so. So, um, no, I actually do know it, but also ChatGPT confirmed. So, uh, so the first thing is you write these 3 things. And so for Bill, it's: I can't control how she takes what I tell her. I can't control if she leaves. I can't control that she's not performing. Okay, those are the things that he can't control. Now, the next thing that you do is on the right-hand side in the can control column, write down 3 things that you can do in your, as we say in recovery, in your hula hoop, that's within your control to optimize this action. And so for Bill, it's, well, I can control whether or not I write out like exactly what she needs to do to perform better and give examples. So it's an educated session. I can control if I use the sandwich technique, even though when people see it coming, it still helps. I preface with a positive and with a positive. I can control whether or not I do this at the right time, in the right place, and where she's going to be receptive. Right. These are the things I can control to make this an effective conversation. And now what you've done is you've just written out, okay, the things you can't control, the things that you can. But you're still potentially thinking about, oh, I'm scared what's going to happen. And when this happens, I'm scared. And here's how we actually can engage your intellectual centers to actually release and overcome your emotional centers. We're going to look at the can't control column, and I want you to look at each one. And for a second, X out the first one and just look at it. The second one, exit out the third one. Exit out and feel yourself releasing the things that you can't control. And then read the things in the can control column and circle the one that's most likely to help this be successful.

Mm-hmm.

And then go spend a little time on that. Right. And you'll be surprised at how easy it is to go do your uncomfortable work because that helps you surrender the outcome.

Do you find that repetition makes it easier?

Yeah, lack of repetition makes it harder too. I mean, like, basically when I teach this process, um, I hate to say it, but like, people can do it for one of three reasons. They do it for inspiration reasons. They like, they get inspired, they, they read the book, they do it, and they're like, oh, this is great. Now they've got a language, and that's great. Um, But for me, recovery didn't stick until it was integrated into my life. And so to me, this is about learning a series of steps that can compel every single person in an organization to do 100% of their uncomfortable work. Now, realistically, are they going to get there? No. But like, let's say 90% versus 50%. That's huge. That's why my employee— my company was able to do 10 times the amount of work with a tenth of the employees. Um, and so the key though is what do you do? So like you can tell people to stop doing, but it's what you tell them to start doing. And just like in recovery, if, if someone relapses and whether they relapse after 30 days clean or 30 years, I, and I'm not special here, anyone with recovery can predict there's one of 5 things they stopped doing. Mm-hmm. They stopped working with a sponsor. They stopped going to meetings. They stopped like we know the things, right? And that's why, like, when I, I tell my kids, I'm like, I guarantee— like, I guarantee— but I say, I'm not going to relapse because I'm going to keep doing those things. Um, I don't, I don't bore them with technically I can't guarantee that because I can't guarantee I'll do the things, but I'm pretty sure I will. So I don't want to scare the crap out of a 5- and 7-year-old, right?

Um, age appropriate.

Yes. Yeah, age appropriate for sure. But, but so anyhow, so, um, the being able to actually— well, trying to make this simple. If you're not— if you want to change a behavior, don't ask what behavior do I need to do differently? Ask what actions I need to take so that I can change that behavior. And so if someone wants to be able to surrender the outcome repeatedly, they need to engage in these 3 steps repeatedly or something else. I don't want to pretend like I'm the end-all of like whatever, but what I've created is a little different in the fact that it's inspired by something that's been working for 100 years for millions of people in a much more dire circumstance. And so the only leaders and companies that I've seen stick with this are the ones— I have the same thing with an addict that I— same thing with a company that I do with an addict. It's show me a leader that's avoiding their uncomfortable work And I'll, I'll show you that they stopped working the 3 Principle Action Card.

Mm-hmm.

It's like that simple. You want an entire company doing uncomfortable work. They, they all work one action card a month where they engage, they practice the repetition of applying these 3 principles to a new set of uncomfortable work that they're scared to do that would benefit them. And they do it. And I can't tell you how many companies I've spoken to that are like, oh, we're totally gonna do it. We're so inspired. And then they don't, because they were relying on inspiration. And inspiration's never helped an addict stay clean ever.

No, I—

Repetition.

I wish I could bottle this up and put it into people's brains, because you're exactly right. I mean, like, it's too easy to be emotionally swayed— inspired, you said. Or discouraged, right? Instead of having the discipline to do the things that work. And you can apply that to so many different things in life. So many situations that you are not satisfied with the outcome or the situation, like, but how often we ruminate on past failures, or we think about a future. I had Dr. Matthew Cutts on here. He does a fascinating interview where his is context— his book and research is Contextual Intelligence, and how he said the difference when people think about the future they think about the things that are different, but they don't think about how they're different. Right. And, and, and that affects what you do presently. Like, if I want that future, I have to do things differently now to the— but, but when you just think about the things external to you that are different, you're just dreaming.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But, but how many times we ruminate or we fantasize instead of staying in the present and doing the work.

Just, you know, majority of people.

Yes, myself. I mean, you know, sure, absolutely.

Well, there's areas for me as well.

Well, I mean, it's, it's a journey. It's not, it's not a destination. It's a journey.

The thing to me, it's not just about discipline, though. Like, if I relied on discipline, I would have never stayed clean.

Mm-hmm.

This is why I'm so obsessed with implementing these principles inside of companies. It's either the company does it at scale or none of us do it consistently, because there have been many times where I've forgotten that I need— at this stage of my recovery, I need 2 meetings a week to be a— I mean, I'm not at risk of, of relapsing, you know, if I, if I miss meetings for a week or 2 these days. Like, I mean, eventually, long enough timeline, but I become an impatient father and, and, and, right, not a person— I don't enjoy life and I'm not, not that good. And so I know I need 2 meetings a week, and I am obsessed with reminding myself to do things that are going to make me successful, but I'll be damned if I, if I, if I don't forget. But yeah, when I do make a meeting, I'll hear someone be like, man, I haven't been making meetings lately. And I'm like, oh, that's what I need to be doing. And so that's one thing, being part of a society of people that are using the exact same language. Yes. To make the exact same change is an incredible reinforcement engine. The second thing is, if I just try to make these changes, that's one thing. But one of the things they told me in recovery was, you know, one of the— you don't become a sponsor because you're special or you graduate or they give you a training. I was taught you cannot keep what you have unless you give it away.

Hmm.

If I'm not taking someone through the steps, I'm not reminded of what it was like at the beginning. Like right before the beginning for me. I'm not reminded of my problem. I'm not reminded of the solution. Um, and so my job is to take, you know, when, when they, when they started, you know, 12-step programs, like it was even more explicit. It was like literally go help someone work the steps just so you don't drink. It was like literally that simple. It was like not even about them. Like now we actually, we want both things. We want to help the person, but But at the end of the day, the reason that I sponsor people is because I was told that if I don't, I will inevitably forget what I've learned and what has kept me clean, and then I will lose it. But also, one of the cool things that happens is going to meetings and taking other people through steps, that renews my fire for, for doing the work. And so anytime I stop doing the pieces of my recovery that have helped me get to where I am I'm engaging in one of these things that's a constant reminder of the things. And so at the end of the day, like, it's not just can I have the discipline? It's— that's why— that's one of the reasons I wrote the book. Like, I was in an EO forum and no shade to EO. I love EO. I'm part of EO. But like, I got so tired of people in EO, like, still kind of peacocking and wearing a mask a little bit. Yeah. And, and I was just, you know, and, and I'm like, I'm with business owners, but they're not reinforcing what I'm learning in recovery. But the people in recovery aren't reinforcing the business stuff that I need. And so like, I wrote the book, and now what I have is, uh, I, I created this little group called Addict Leader Circle, and it's, uh, me and, um, 6 other, uh, recovering addicts in my specific 12-step fellowship that have at least 5 years clean and run a business of $1 million or more. So it's like EO plus like long-term recovery. It's not a competitor, it's just like something I do and I help other people start it. But like, it— there's something about being in that group where we all are operating from the exact same— this is what we do to take care of our recoveries and be better members of society and to not live in fear as much and, and to be better parents and all that kind of stuff. Um, there's something really magical because inevitably I'm always forgetting things that I know, that I learned, that I did really well, that I— that helped me. Um, so all of it, to me, it's like you gotta— you gotta admit, if you don't— if you're not part of that tribe, you got to make that tribe. Um, if you want to live mask-free, you got to help other people live mask-free. If you want to live mask-free, you got to be in a group of other people that are living mask-free. And that doesn't mean people that say they're going to live mask-free— that's like drug addicts saying they're going to— hey, I'm not going to use drugs. It's, are you doing the freaking— are you using the tools on the prescribed frequency that is necessary to not do drugs or live mask-free. And that's the, that's the key. And that sounds crazy. And most people won't do it. And that's a frustration.

No, but I think what I take away from that is, is that it's not only a process and the personal commitment to doing the process I call discipline, but it is the ecosystem in the community around the system. That is where the magic is. And I, I mean, entrepreneurship is a very, uh, lonely road, and it's very easy to get siloed in and turn inwards, not in a good way, um, if, if you don't have that community. But it's got to— to your point, it's got to be the right community. It's got to be people that are, are— you're equally yoked, you're wanting the same things, you're you're working off the same sheet of music. Michael, I feel like we could, uh, have this conversation, um, much longer, but we can't. So how do people find out, uh, more about your book and your program and whatever else you're working on?

Yeah, man, thanks. So, uh, if you want me to speak, or I do advisory work for CEOs that are out there, you can go to michaelbrodiewaite.com, reach out to me that way and see some of my stuff. Um, and then I have a leadership development program based off of the principles in my book. I used to call it the Mastery Program, but now it's a company called Addictive Leadership. And you can go to addictiveleadership.com.

What? I like that better.

You like Addictive Leadership better?

Yeah, yeah, it's snazzy.

Thanks pandemic, um, I had to pivot. And so if you go to addictiveleadership.com, we do a one-day training where we people the principles that are in the book, but at the organizational level. And we also have a coaching program, and then we have a train-the-trainer program so people can become sponsors.

I love it. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. And until next time, remember, you are not alone.