Legacy Beyond Wealth: Darryl Dittmer

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world. I am.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, author and podcast extraordinaire Darryl Dittmer. Darryl, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Christian. I appreciate you having me.

Yeah, so we were laughing about— he's got a Detroit Lions sticker hanging in the background. And I told him that as a Detroit fan, that tells me that he is used to suffering. And that's what we were laughing about. I actually have one of my colleagues, my employees, that is a Detroit Lions fan. And so I'm not a Detroit Lions fan, but I have watched his range of emotions. So I get it.

It's, it's, it has not been an easy life. Christian Brim.

It's been better recently, but it has been better recently.

Unfortunately, I— and I talk about this all the time, but my dad was a big, big Detroit Lions fan and he got emotionally involved. Yes. In winning and losing. And, and I don't get quite so emotionally involved, but, but they were good when he was alive in the '50s. I wasn't alive. And so he at least got to see some world championships, even if they weren't called Super Bowls.

Yeah. And, you know, I remember when Barry Sanders went to Detroit and it was fun watching them, but it was like, you know, they still can't win.

I don't— Yeah, that's difficult to accomplish, right? Like have Barry Sanders and still not win.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah. You have to try real hard to do that.

It was fun to watch. Not the losing, but Barry. Anyway, Darrell, why don't you tell the listeners who you are and what you do?

Sure. Currently, I am a writer. I write books. I've written a couple of books and I also have a podcast and that's currently what I do in addition to take as many vacations as possible and try to help others. That's really what I try to do personally, professionally. Just help others put their life maybe on a different path. If I can, if I can provide some assistance in doing that, that's what I love to do.

I love that. So the books that you've written, are they, are they fiction? Are they nonfiction?

They are nonfiction. My first book is, is my story. And my second book I like to sort of look at as Everybody else's story.

Okay, so give us the Reader's Digest version of your story.

Sure. When I was a young kid, I grew up in a— and I'll keep this Reader's Digest as much as I possibly can. But my dad was a mechanic. I grew up in the Midwest, you know, Detroit. Obviously, we got that lion sitting back there. It's because I was born in Detroit and And my dad was a mechanic. My mom took care of the house and the kids and all that sort of thing. And I'm pretty sure my mom had a much more difficult job. When I was 13, I got involved in drinking, which led to drugs, which led to several things that I just, I couldn't overcome. And I was going down a spiral that would have probably ended me up in either prison or dead or whatever it was, just because I was embroiled in that life. And it was not a pretty picture. And I got clean and sober at the age of 19, which was a pretty cool thing, and have been that way ever since. And And I've been working on me over the course of the last many, many years and a few decades. And so, so that's really what my life is about now. It's about improving me so that I can put a better product out into the world. And that product is me. And that's why I wrote my books. I wrote my books because I wanted to share the messages from mentors and from wonderful people in my life. And they were good enough to help me. And I try to be good enough to help others to the extent that I can.

So when did you write your first book? How old were you?

I was 56. Okay. 56 when I started writing it.

So there was, there was a lot of time there from your recovery to, to writing this book. What, what led you to write the book? Like, why, why did you feel compelled to do that?

I was having a conversation with my now wife. She was my girlfriend at the time, was probably 18, 20 years ago. And, and, and she didn't know me when I was an idiot, or at least that brand of an idiot. In terms of the drugs and the drinking and all that sort of stuff. And I was relating my stories to her and telling her what I was like and the things that I had done and et cetera, et cetera. And she looked at me and she's just like, "You're not that guy. I don't see it. I'm not seeing it." And I said, "Well, I was, and remind me to write a book someday." So, So that was kind of the impetus. It was to tell my story. And then I think that morphed over the next 18 years or so to— I not only wanted to tell my story, but I wanted to help people because of my story and help people maybe improve their lives if that was possible to do via a book, just help plant some seeds, right? Help, you know, help people look at life in a different way.

Is, is there— you, you said, you know, that, that was me, but it's not me now. I, I, I think for people that have lived a few years, um, you know, they, they can see, maybe not as dramatically as, as you, but like how they're, they're not the people that they were before. Right. You know, I myself look back on my 20-year-old self and I'm like, or even my 30-year-old self, and I'm like, well, I'm definitely not that person anymore. But, but, you know, because it was you, because you lived those experiences, you still, I don't know, you carry it, you understand it. In a way that other people don't, right? I mean, some, like your, your wife, your girlfriend was like, well, that's not you. So she, she couldn't see it. But that's still in you, right? Like it's the memories anyway. It's not, not the behavior. Do you— what, what do you see is most different about you and that teenage Darrell?

I guess I would have to say the most different is, you know, there's a way that I was brought up. I was brought up— my dad was a Navy guy, like I said, a mechanic. You know, he was in the service. He was in the Korean War. He was pretty disciplined in terms of what he wanted from us. And my mom was the same way. They were both pretty tough. And they taught us principles, you know, to whatever degree they could. And they taught us manners and they taught us not to lie and not to cheat and not to steal and all those things. And I did all those things that I was taught not to do and did a lot of the things that I was taught not to do. So, you know, there wasn't anything that resonated in me back then that said, Dude, knock it off. You know, it was just— I was just going after that next thing and going and going. And so I think that's really the big difference now is I don't— as I sit here, I don't have things that I feel like I need or I have to have or, you know, these big desires. I feel like I'm missing something or I have this hole in the middle of me. It just doesn't exist anymore. And that's probably the biggest difference from whence I came.

And what do you attribute that to? Like, what prompted that change?

It was over many, many years. You know, I got involved in the 12 steps. They got me involved in— The thing about the 12 steps, I think, which is most crucial to understand, and whether it's 12 steps for drinking or drugs or food or gambling or sex or whatever it is, there's only one of those steps that talks about the actual addiction. Right. You know, the actual thing that we're trying to get away from or stop doing. And the rest of the steps are about getting better, improving. Making me a better me, making me a better me so that I can give something back to the world. And that's really what it is. So it was mentors, it was the 12 steps as a guide. It was figuring out that I can live a different way. And along the way, you know, I've had plenty of experiences. I've had, businesses and entrepreneurship stuff, and I've had jobs, and I've, you know, I've been a lot of different things, which has all been really cool. But the thing that I really needed to get different was Darrell. Yeah. You know, and how Darrell perceives life and how he approaches life and all of those other things seemed to work out pretty well when I was working on making Darryl a better Darryl.

Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. I, you know, we're sitting here in 2025 and I am the ripe age of 55. And for most of my life, it has been about what I do. And that's not to say that there wasn't an external guide. So I professed my faith in Christ at 16. And I proceeded to live my life very what's the word I'm looking for, inconsistent, for a long time. And so, you know, most of my adult life, I think I would have at least nominally said that I was trying to do what I thought God wanted me to do. But this year, starting with some conversations that I had with some other Christians, I realized that I was focusing on the wrong thing, that, that really, I needed to focus on what God wanted me to be, as opposed to what God wanted me to do. And, you know, that, that's really, really resonated a lot in the last, you know, 6 months about, you know, what I do is a whole lot less important than who I am, right? And, you know, if, if I am who God wants me to be, then whatever he has me do, whether that's washing dishes or going on a mission trip, it doesn't matter, then what I'm supposed to do will just naturally follow. And I don't even know if I'm making sense, but does that resonate with you?

100% resonates with me. I had a mentor tell me many moons ago that And there were several things that he told me that stuck with me over the years. But one of the things he said was, he said, "Darryl, first things first, and the rest will be added on." And he described that as— because I didn't know, I was probably in college when he told me, right? And which I had no business in college, but I was in college when he told me. And He described that as, 'cause he explained it to me as, "Darryl, you have to take care of the you part. You have to be a better you and a better Darryl, and all this other stuff, you know, works itself out." I believe the greatest thing that I can do to thwart my movement forward in this life, in terms of me internally, is to try to control everything, is to make myself the center of attention, is to make myself, you know, oh, Darryl matters, you know, it's— and he does, but he doesn't matter as much as everything else. You know, there's a lot of things more important out there than how Darryl feels or, you know, like, like what if somebody comes to me and says, I need this, Darryl, and I really need you to help me with this. And I say, well, I don't feel like it. Right. It doesn't matter how I feel. I need to help. Right. You know, and that's to me, that's the important stuff. Am I building me or, you know, and then my life builds as a consequence of that? Or am I trying to build my life and forgetting about me being better?

Yes.

I think the latter is, at least for me, has been the proper way to go.

Yeah, I would agree because I think that, you know, I can't speak for all men, but it seems like men derive a lot of their self-identity from what they do.

Right.

And so it does kind of go backwards. If you're out there trying to create your identity from what you do, you have got the cart before the horse, right? I mean, like, because you're going to have success, you're going to have failure. And but, but, but in reality, that doesn't dictate who you are. I think a lot of entrepreneurs have their identity wrapped up in their business. But, but, but for most, and it was for me, I think a lot of them, the business just becomes an extension of their own psychosis. You know, it, it, it's, it's a construct that we create. And, and so whatever failures we have in character, just get amplified or ignored as opposed to, you know, doing the work and improving yourself. We just kind of hide in our business.

For sure. Yeah, I think that's true. And, you know, the stages of life, you mentioned it and we talked a little bit about it that I'm not the person I was. You're not the person you were. And I did that. I didn't, you know, my family, I remember, you know, we're having powdered milk and my mom's washing sandwich bags and, you know, we weren't terribly well off. We got a lot of nos, you know, in terms of things we wanted. And, but that was fine. I think it's, so I didn't want to be struggling financially. In my life. I didn't want to have, you know, a similar sort of situation that I came from. So I put a lot of effort into being, you know, successful financially and trying to, you know, move into a place that I probably wasn't necessarily destined for, if you want to say that. I told myself when I was a kid working on farms and doing carpentry, I was like, I'm never going to wear a tie to work. But I probably spent 25 years wearing a tie to work because I wanted to experience and I wanted to be financially successful and all those things. So, but at some point, and this happened a long time ago, because we can just break ourselves down if all we care about is the business and the money and all that, you know, it's It's— we can break ourselves down significantly. And I did that. But a long time ago, the most important thing to me, or at least how I identify success, became, am I waking up in the morning with a smile on my face or not? Yeah. And there's a lot of pieces that go into that formula to wake up in the morning with a smile on your face. But that's what became my definition of success. And when that happened, and that has to do with everything. Yeah. You know, my beliefs, my faith, my actions, everything I do, my motives. And in many ways, honestly, it has to do with, do I have enough money to be able to live? Sure. You know, that's certainly in there. So anyway, that's just a little story of, from whence we came, but it's stages, right? We go to different stages and we move into different things and we mature emotionally and mentally and spiritually and financially and all of those things. And I guess for me to say, "Oh, well, I've always felt like money doesn't really matter. It's only me that matters." No, I had to go through the stages to figure that one out, right?

Yeah, 100%. I recently read the book. It was recommended to me, What Happy People Know. And clinical psychologist, he, he was one of the founders of Canyon Ranch Resort in Arizona. And he uses a lot of his patient cases in, and his own story in this book. But one of the chapters, he talks about money specifically, and that there's this false belief that at some point that you'll have enough money that you'll be happy. But that's a false statement. If that is what you— if that's what you're pursuing for happiness, you'll never achieve it. It doesn't matter how much money that you have. It's kind of, again, going back to the cart before the horse. Like, if that's what you're seeking, you're, you're never going to have enough money that makes you happy, happy, because happiness is not dependent upon money. But a lot of people think that. And, and, and I'm not, I'm not discounting, you know, wanting to be out of poverty. Like, my, my story is one where my family went bankrupt when I was 16. And, and so we had a lot of money, and then we didn't have money. And the loss of the money isn't what made me unhappy. It was the fact that my family, because it was a family business, dissolved. They scattered because there was nothing keeping them together anymore. And that is what I lost, not the material things. And so Yeah. If you're out there thinking that you're going to build a business or you're going to build your income to a point that, oh, I'm now I'm happy, it's not going to happen.

Hmm. No, I— this brings to mind and it's related and not perfectly, but it's— but it drives the point. I believe that I had— I was the second largest shareholder in a company when I was— and I was in my 40s at that point. Early 40s, and the largest shareholder had me in his office and he was talking to me about some things. And he said, "Darryl, this company is going to be a big part of your legacy someday." And I almost threw up. I literally, it made me kind of sick. I was like, "Oh, I hope not." You know, I didn't say that.

You probably wouldn't have received it well.

That's probably not the smartest thing to say. But that's how I felt. I thought, you know, I don't want a company to be my legacy. I want other things to be my legacy. And, you know, and at that point I hadn't written books or anything, but that's the type of thing where, you know, if somebody picks up my book or listens to a podcast or something 20, 30, 40 years from now and they get something out of it, That is what I want to leave behind. Not a place where, you know, we just keep driving to make money.

Yeah, you know, that's interesting. I have been thinking about the legacy because I think when you get to this point in life, you— your mental switch changes to like, I've got all the time to I've got a limited time. And like, what do I want to make sure I get done? And I've been thinking about this company that I've had for 28 years and its succession plan, if you know. And, you know, the reality is I would like for it to succeed beyond me. Um, but only if it's doing what, what it was I created it to do. Like, if, if, if it's not helping, uh, creative entrepreneurs with their finances and having a better business, then it doesn't need to exist. Like, and, and that's, I think, different than what you're describing, which is more of a financial legacy. Like that.

That, that's agreed.

And, and I'm, I'm totally fine either way. Like, if it doesn't, if it doesn't go beyond me, um, I'm okay with that. And, and if it does, great. Like, but I'm, I, I have come to the point now that I am not the business, and it is not like I have to keep it going or, or it has to go beyond me. Because that's who I am.

I think that's— yeah, our business was in the financial services and, you know, it was about sales. It was about growth. It was about acquisitions. It was about anything that we can do to make money. And that was, you know, and that was— the money was, you know, great, wonderful, but But it's not what I want to be remembered for. I don't want to, you know, drop a knapsack full of money at somebody's feet when I leave this planet. You know, that's not what I want to be remembered for. I'll sign a book for them. You know, leave that. Here, read this every 5 years, you know?

Yeah.

And tell me how you change over time.

How many times have we seen where generational wealth, uh, just ruins people. Like, right, you know, that, that because, you know, the, the dad or mom was, was busy building this empire financially and neglected their children relationships and the development of their children. And so you, you end up leaving the money to people that have no business having money. Money. Like, what's the point of those people having money? They're going to screw it up because they don't— they didn't earn it. They don't understand it. And they may have bad character.

I agree with that 100%. And I think there's something very important to be said for— and I've told my two sons this— that, you know, go out. I want you to If you're going to do it, if you want money, great. You need it to get through this life. You know, just understand that. If you don't want to make money, you want to do something else, fine. It's completely your choice. I'm not going to drive you in either direction. But what I will say is you'll get a sense of accomplishment and a sense of appreciation and a sense of knowing that you you struggled and that you did something and you went through the ups and downs and you went through the failures to get to where you want to be. And that's the important part of life. It's the journey. Yeah, it's not whether you make money or whether you don't make money. It's what we learn along the way. Yes. And that's what I think is, is crucial for people to understand. What I try to get them to understand, if you— somebody drops a load of wheelbarrow money in your lap, doesn't do you any good.

No. And, and I've seen a lot of second and third generations where, you know, because they're not entrepreneurs, they don't have the entrepreneurial mindset. They end up with a bunch of money and, and they just, uh, still live in that scarcity mindset. And it's like they live poor even though they're wealthy. And it becomes this very strange dynamic, you know. They, they've got They've got large houses because they have money, but they don't— they won't spend a dime to help anybody else because, well, you know, it'll run out. And it's very rare where you see a second-generation entrepreneur take their family business and elevate it. It does happen, but that's the exception to the rule. I'm sure you saw similar cases working with people's money.

Absolutely. Yeah. And similar cases, just people that I knew in my life. I, I went to college and there were several people there who were, you know, kids from dads who owned businesses and this and that. And, and as I stayed in touch or at least you know, was able to understand what they're doing over the years, a lot of them were like, oh no, I don't need my dad's business. I'm going to go do this life and this and that. And, and, uh, and then 30 years later, they're like, oh, well, nothing really worked out, so I'm gonna grab my dad's business, you know. And, and which is cool. I mean, whatever, no, no judgment either way. But, but I, I was pretty happy that as I grew up, I knew there wasn't like a—

A safety net.

—something underneath me. There wasn't anything underneath me that was going to pick me up if I couldn't figure it out myself. And that was a big driving factor for me to put in the effort and then put in additional effort and then go the extra mile and all those things that it takes to to move ourselves and our lives forward.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the process of being a successful entrepreneur involves failure, every one of them. And that forms— how you react to it forms your character. And you can't replace that experience. You just— you can't. I have a good friend. Who, uh, had a, had a family business that I, I'm gonna guess is probably a billion-dollar business. I don't know that. Um, and when he graduated college, he graduated with a degree in architecture. Um, he actually renounced his inheritance. His grandfather died, and he gave it to his nephew. And I remember asking him, like, what in the hell are you doing? And he said— and this is one of those moments of clarity you have when you're younger. You don't really know why you're doing something, but it's really clear that this is what you're supposed to do. And, and he's— he said, if I take that money, I will not be the architect that I want to be. And he went— he's gone on and become a fabulously successful entrepreneur. And, you know, I think in a very real sense, he wouldn't have had that success had he had that safety net. And as parents, you know, especially mothers, I'm not bagging on moms. I'm just— they grew them inside of them. So they, they have a different relationship with their children than fathers. That lack of a safety net is often very scary. Like, they want to— they want to keep that net under them their whole life. And I'm constantly trying to explain to my wife, like, no, no, they, they need to fail. I don't know if you saw the meme, this video where the dad sitting in his chair And the kid comes around and he's going to put the fork in the electric socket. And his mom's next to him going, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. And the dad says, no, wait a minute, let's see what happens.

I have not seen that, but I just pictured it and I love it. That's great. That's great. You know, I'm I am— I didn't understand long ago, and as we grow and change and go through experiences, we begin to understand. And who knows what else I may understand, but the only thing I'm pretty clear on is that the longer I go, the less I understand. Yes. But there's— I was scared of failure when I was younger. I was scared like, oh man, is this it? You know, am I done? Am I cooked? Like, but then you get up, dust yourself off, keep going, get up, dust yourself off, keep going. And then over time it's, it becomes, all right, well, maybe I can redefine failure and just call it a stepping stone because I'm just stepping. Yes. From one thing to the next and failures. Some of those steps. Failure has to be some of those steps. And then, and then I got to a point where I was like, you know, maybe we don't have to define anything. Maybe we don't have to say, you know, this was a failure, this was a success, or, you know, because none of it really is. It's, it's failure. It's just like life, right? Death is, is as much a part of life as living is. Failure is as much a part of success as the wins. You know, the losses are just as important, if not more important, I think, than the wins.

Absolutely. You don't learn anything in the wins. No. You know, one of the worst things that can happen is you win and you don't know why. Like, I'm not sure that what I did contributed to that success. And then you start down a path of believing in your own bullshit, as opposed to like in a failure, you have the choice to look inwards. A lot of times I didn't, like I would blame it on situations or other people. But when I started to say, okay, how did I contribute to this? Like, and that shift from a victim mentality of like— and I'm not talking about like truly victims, like children that are abused. I mean, they don't— they're victims, right? Right. But as an adult, you know, you contribute in some part to your situation. Right. And I'm not— I'm not discounting the fact that that people may have hurt you, they may have done you wrong, but there's always something for you as an adult to learn. Like, okay, how did I let that person hurt me? How did I put myself in that situation to allow that person to hurt me? Those are the things that you need to learn from that. And instead of just saying, well, that was all so-and-so's fault, I had nothing to do with it.

I'm a, I'm a huge fan. And one of the things I I talk about a lot is blame is poison. Blame is, is, is me not taking responsibility for me. And, and the entire journey, I believe, is, is on me, you know, whether I'm— yes, right— whether I'm succeeding, whether I'm failing, whether I'm trying, whether I'm not trying, whether I'm blaming, whether I'm not blaming. And, and it's not so much what they did to me, because people are going to do stuff to you your whole life. And people are going to hurt you and people are going to, you know, take things from you and this and that, which, you know, it's just part of living. And then the ultimate difficult one that, you know, they're not trying to hurt you, but people die, people go away and And so what am I doing with those experiences and what am I doing with those interactions and those losses? And I remember a book, M. Scott Peck, right? "The Road Less Traveled." Yes. Old school book. But the thing that sticks with me in that book is when he talks about life is about loss. It just is. And I think the question for me is, am I going to, you know, I'm going to experience the losses no matter what, but am I going to lose myself or am I going to build myself through those things? And I think that's the great question. Yes.

The book I mentioned previously, "What Happy People Know," his name is Baker, I believe. Dr. Baker was talking about his personal story was his— they— he and his wife lost their son, either at birth or shortly thereafter. And the, you know, so like, he was in a dark place. And, and you— yeah, he didn't have any control over that, that, you know, so you could say, he was a victim. But what he learned from that is echoing exactly what you said. So in that moment of grief, where he's like, I've lost, I've lost everything, like, I've lost this. And he started to remember his son. And he started to feel love, he started to feel the feelings that he had for his son. And he realized in that moment that that can never be taken away from him. And so what he learned about himself in that is that he can go through the worst of things. Nobody wants to go through those things. But you can go through those worst of things and still learn something about yourself. And And what he learned from himself in that moment of grief was that he actually is an optimist. And he defined optimism not as some Pollyanna thing, but as, you know, that didn't destroy me. And I still have something beautiful from it. Right. And that, to me, is exactly what you're describing.

I think it's so interesting to look back and people would say, and I see it all the time, this question is asked, you know, what would you tell your 15-year-old self or 18-year-old self knowing what you know now? I wouldn't tell them anything other than buckle up, dude. You know, it's quite a ride. It's an interesting ride. But But if I were to change something, it could change everything. Yes. If I were to say, oh, you should have told yourself this when you were 16, who knows what would have happened and where my life would have gone. And I wake up, you know, I'm grateful for my life and I'm grateful for my wife and my family and who my parents were and all of those things. And it doesn't mean everything has been beautiful and rocking and rolling the whole time. It means sometimes it sucks, but I'm still grateful for it. And I still wouldn't change anything because as faith has grown in my life, I understand that all things work together for good. They truly do. And I truly believe that. Yes. No matter what has happened.

Yes. And I do, I think it is an immature faith that, that expects ease or comfort like that. That's, that's, that's— it's immature. You know, the, the pain— I've often, I've often said this about myself, but I've also, you know, shared it with my children. Like, you don't learn anything without pain. You know, you can learn something intellectually, but like the thing that sticks with you, the thing that changes you, the thing that changes your behavior are the things that hurt. And, and there's no way around it. Like, I can sit there and tell you all day long, don't do this, but you have to stick your fork into the electric socket to feel that, to say, I'm not going to do that anymore. Right? Like that, that, right? I mean, yeah, one of my, one of my earliest memories was, uh, I was sitting when, when my parents were divorced. I was 2 and my dad moved back in with his parents. And by the grace of God, I— he, he gained custody and his 2 younger brothers were still living at home. And so we had this whole menagerie of people in a 2-bedroom house. And I remember sitting on the kitchen counter with my grandmother. And for some reason, there was a mousetrap on the kitchen counter. I personally wouldn't put it there. But that's where she put it. And I remember as this 3-year-old, like looking at it, and she's like, don't touch that. And I started to move towards it. And she said, don't touch it. And she was working at the sink. And so I thought she wasn't looking. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to touch it. I still can't set a mousetrap to this day. Like, they scare the shit out of me. Right. But, but, but, but the point was that, like, it didn't matter what she said, you know, I trusted her. I really trusted her after that. Right? Like, okay, if she tells me not to do something, I better listen because she has my best interest at heart, right? But I had to touch the mousetrap to learn that.

Absolutely. There's a— it made me think of when I first got involved in the 12 steps and I was a kid, they had this little pamphlet on the table of literature and things, and it was called Acceptance. And inside that was just a little line that I remember, and I memorized it on purpose so I could keep referring to it. But it went like, "Pain is the only instrument sharp enough to prune away the excesses of our wayward will and shape it into some reasonable facsimile of God's will for us." And basically translated, pain is the only thing that's going to change us. I love that.

Yeah, it's a good one.

Only thing sharp enough to prune away the excesses of our wayward will. Yeah, I love that.

I am going to end on that note, Darryl, because it was so profound. How do, how do people, uh, buy your book and find out more about you?

My books are both on Amazon. My first book is When I Stop Fighting: The Unexpected Joy of Getting My Head Out of My Ass. And my second book is When You Stop Fighting: The Road You're On Is Your Own Ass Fault. You can purchase both those on Amazon. Just type in When I Stop Fighting or my name, which is Daryl Dittmer, D-A-R-Y-L D-I-T-T-M-E-R. My website is DarrellDittmer.com. I love it.

We'll have those links in the show notes. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please share the podcast, rate the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember, you are not alone.