Lindsey Miller: Navigating Mental Health in Entrepreneurship

We talk a lot about, and you probably do this too, is just like you have workplace safety. We're allowed to make mistakes. Mistakes can happen here and that's okay. We have guardrails in place and quality control processes and all those things. But even if that still gets to a client and they're unhappy, you don't, you're not gonna get fired right away. Right. Like that's not gonna happen. Like we're gonna figure it out. And that's something I see so much. This is The Chris Project where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome back to the Dream Big Studios. Christian Brim here. My guest today is Lindsay Miller. Lindsay, hello.

Hi, thanks for having me.

I'm very glad you're here. I've been looking forward to this interview. So give us the, uh, Reader's Digest version of you and your business.

Yeah, so I own a marketing agency. It's a startup, a technical founding startup, I guess we could say. Marketing in the technical age. Okay. Um, called My Marketing Assistant. And yeah, we just started a year ago. I had another marketing agency before that, but this is the one I'm focused on now.

So you had Content Journey? I had Content Journey. And so This is the Content Journey 2.0?

Yeah, well, Content Journey still exists. Okay. But now we're primarily focused on My Marketing Assistant. The team's still there, we still have clients, we accept clients over at Content Journey, but we've kind of turned that over to the team and I'm getting to focus my time on this new endeavor, utilizing new technologies and how my brain has brought this stuff together and how it can impact marketing.

So My Marketing Assistant, what do you guys do?

So we are like the handoff of all the tasks. So I try to tell people like, Christian, you're not gonna probably be the one to hire us. When the bosses come in, when the CEO comes in, when the CMO comes in and they get my marketing assistant and they hand it off to their marketing manager. Right. Typically not a good fit. But it's the marketing manager who's just like overwhelmed. They have so much going on. They have a supervisor that doesn't understand how much time it takes to build stuff and they just need some assistance and they don't, they want to like really have a reliable outsourcing agency. And so that's what my marketing assistant is doing, a lot of social media. Yeah. Doing a lot of content editing that's like starting out AI and then we edit it to sound human.

Yes.

But also because my background is primarily in SEO, so search engine optimization, making sure everything's like SEO friendly. Okay. A lot of YouTube videos and SEO for YouTube.

So who's your target market? And for my marketing assistant, we're like in this funny place of—

and I don't like to put numbers to it. Yeah, but we do because we're like EO people, right? And so I think it's probably a business that has $1 million to $10 million in revenue.

Okay.

One marketing person.

Okay.

That has a whole lot of stuff on their task list that they just need a little bit of help. And so we're not really industry specific. We have ad companies, we have beauty brands, we have banks, mental health, obviously one of my, um, shticks, med spas, coaches, consultants. We're like kind of a little bit all over the place.

So do these businesses typically work with outside agencies?

Yes. Yeah. And they probably like haven't had success or like the other part is they're ready to hire someone else to help their marketing team.

Right.

But it's expensive to hire a great marketer.

Mm, yes.

Right? I mean, I've even thought like, man, maybe I should get a job again.

Yeah.

I could be a very highly paid marketer these days. Yes. Compared to 10 years ago when I was looking for jobs or working out in the world. So I think it's a numbers game too, is they're looking at it and they're like, well, I already have one marketing person that I'm paying $60,000 a year.

Right.

And now I'm gonna get them somebody else and it's gonna be another 50 or 60. Mm-hmm. Well, how can we do to make this? Can't you just use AI? Go to ChatGPT and have 'em do it. And like, there's such a disconnect, right? Between, again, our founders, our CEOs, our CMOs of like, yeah, just go put it into ChatGPT and have it get done. And then you're putting even more on your marketing person, right? In this case. And so we kind of come in and help them do all of the little things that they need to get done, scheduling emails and writing the emails and making sure all the connections are there.

And, you know, just staying current on the technology is a full-time job.

I'm telling you, it really is. And then that way, like these marketing managers or marketing directors or whoever it is, can continue to think strategically and high level, and they don't have to be like, oh yeah, I gotta go log into ActiveCampaign or Mailchimp or whatever. They just get to send that to us and we get to handle it. And then mostly I would say people love us for our social media stuff. I never wanted to own a social media management company. It's kind of that. I know. It's like 70% that these days.

I just absolutely detest the idea that I'm contributing to Zuckerberg's empire, but It is. It's the game you have to play.

It is. I mean, we're running ad campaigns on Meta through, well, really Content Journey clients for the most part, but some, my marketing assistant, and just like gangbusters. And so it's like, it just is a thing you gotta do.

So you mentioned mental health. Why is that of interest to you?

I've always been interested in mental health. We could talk about my childhood trauma, right? And how all of us like come from that area and try to make sense of what happened to us when we were younger. But I remember being in my undergraduate work and going, I really want to switch. I want to do mental health. I don't want to do what I'm doing now. But I was on the Parent Scholarship, and so if I switched, um, majors halfway through, I had to figure it out on my own. I was like, okay, we'll just stay the course. Right. So it was always something I was interested in and, um, had the opportunity to go back to graduate school way later in life. And after I started my business, yes, went back to graduate school.

Had children. Let's go back to school. Yeah. Sounds like a perfect plan.

Right. I got nothing else to do. I have two little kids and a business, um, yeah, let's go ahead and go back to grad school.

Yeah, makes perfect sense.

I know. Yeah, I've always felt like you have one life to live and, you know, why not just like go all in? So I'm definitely a two feet person. I'm also good at failing and knowing when I don't want to do something anymore and making those pivots. Yes. But yeah, so I went back to school and I graduated in 2020 with a degree in clinical mental health counseling.

So is there professional licensing that goes along with that?

There is. Um, LPC is that path. There's There's so much more to the story, but Oklahoma changed the laws. So when I started grad school, I could leave and be a 1099 under supervision. Right. And halfway through, well, probably more than that, they switched the laws and you had to be a W-2 employee. That really wasn't going to fit with my life. And so I now just have the master's degree without the licensure.

Right.

But who knows? I'm still young. Yes. I still have time and may eventually get my credentials.

I don't know if this is true. I've always felt like a lot of many mental health professionals get into the space to solve their own problems, to scratch their own itch. Is that the case for you?

Absolutely. I think there was a lot of trying to just discover why I felt the way I did. Like, why— like, you had the narcissism papers up.

Yeah.

I'm a child of a narcissist, 100%. And so, and probably why I'm high achieving in the way that I do, start a business and also go to grad school and have 2 kids at home and do all the things, right? And so, yeah, I wanted to make sense of why I was the way that I was. I also had lost my brother 7 years ago. And so there was just a lot of stuff going on there too. And there was just a lot that I wanted to be like, I need to make sense of this, um, of this life I have. And just going to therapy wasn't enough. I needed to dive in a little bit further. Yeah, I think for at least for me, I can't speak for my peers. It was definitely a draw.

Did you lose your brother to some type of addiction or—

No, he had multiple sclerosis. Okay. But he was diagnosed at 15.

Mm-hmm.

And which is like a whole thing, right? Which is, I think, also why I feel the way I do about like One Life to Live.

Like, right.

I was, you know, almost 17 years old when my little brother was given this really debilitating diagnosis. And so it just changed my outlook on life. And so I was like, okay, here we go. And so even Chris, that was his name, he did lots of schooling. He went to culinary school, he went to trucking school, he moved from this coast to that coast and just lived life. And then yeah, passed away at 32.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, thank you.

You said therapy wasn't doing it anymore. What on this side of the education, What do you think you weren't able to achieve through therapy?

Wow, Christian. You know, it probably was having my own walls up with my therapist of like, mm, okay, I'm not really getting what I need out of this. I need more answers. But probably also it was like easier to look at someone else and learn about it than it was to work with somebody one-on-one and work on myself at that time.

Yeah.

Right? So it's like a weird way of being afraid and setting space in between it.

Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. And I'd never really thought about it that way because, you know, therapy is only as good as you let it be, right? And being able to learn about it through observing others rather than yourself does give you a buffer.

Absolutely. It's a safe area of like, oh, it's them. You're othering people all the time. It's never me. Right. But my best mentors were like, you got to do your own work. And if you leave here and you haven't done your own work, you don't deserve to be doing client work and helping anybody. And like, that's the truth. And so, but it helped me. It helped me look at other people, see myself in that, and then begin to start doing my own work later.

So You finished the degree in 2020, 4 years ago.

Yeah.

You started Content Journey when?

Well, same year, earlier that year.

Okay. How has that education impacted how you show up at work, how you do work?

Yeah, I am 100% a better leader because of that education than I ever would've been before.

Tell me more.

Yeah, just like showing up for team in really wholesome ways, but also understanding life's circumstances, being able to talk people through that, interpersonally with team members, like conflict resolution. Oh my gosh, sign me up for that because it's really, it's not fun, but it's kind of fun, like getting people together that are having these difficulties., and I have the tools now to do that in a really high-level capacity, not just a, I'm your boss, let's talk this out and work out our issues. Or even like with my kids who are fighting, which is like so similar, isn't it? But like, just like, hey, let's talk this out, hug each other, you know, whatever, and go on your way.

It's— You make your employees hug?

I brought up the kids. Okay. All right.

I mean, that's fine if you do.

Right. We're mostly remote, so they probably couldn't. No. Even if they don't exist. Virtual hugs. Yeah, virtual hugs. But we do talk a lot about our personalities and who each of us are showing up as ourselves at work and understanding that. Enneagram is a really nice way of talking about that because there's no diagnosis there. It's a really positive way of talking through it. And so that has really helped us and helped me, I think, have successful team relationships.

Anything about how you approach, like, decision-making? You decided to pivot. Did that training affect how you approach that?

Absolutely. And most of that, again, with team. It's so easy just to be like the entrepreneur and be like, I'm going to make all of these decisions and just, like, go super fast and—

Right. You guys catch up.

Yeah, exactly. But knowing— and leaning into all of their personalities the way that we have, it's like, okay, I know I need to talk to this person this way about this decision. I have to go talk to this other person this other way. Um, because they need to be like, they're going to receive it differently. Sure. And so those conversations are going to be different, right? Or how much time it takes for my Enneagram Sixes that are out there, right? It's like a lot of fear that's being led there. And so like, how do I talk to those them on the team to be like, this is actually gonna be a good thing for everybody and get everyone on board.

What about you though? You're talking about how you're managing and leading the team. How did, if any, how did it change your approach to the decision to pivot, for instance, or how you dealt with those challenges?

I had to think about that for a second. I don't think it changed how I am there at all. I think it's like still this like, entrepreneur brain of like best decisions for the business, how is this going to make money, like all of that still lives and survives and thrives there in my brain. And so yeah, I don't think that my schooling piece has impacted my decision-making at all. It's just the after the decision-making is 100% different than it would have been before. Okay.

You have a husband that is an entrepreneur as well. I do. Uh, what's that like living with an entrepreneur? Because I've often wondered, uh, well, how my wife feels living with me, a a crazy person, what's it like?

It's probably more true than any of us realize. Those are some fun studies to look at. So I remember when we first started dating, uh, I had a political consulting business at the time. He had his software business, and he was like, this is so nice having someone that understands it, because I wasn't giving him a hard time about checking sales every morning as soon as he woke up.

Right.

I was like looking at his email. I wasn't being like, oh, who are you on the phone with? I'm like, right, He's just looking at it like, of course, like we both are doing that. And so I think he felt seen and understood. And I did. I got it. I knew that when he was leaving for work trips, that he was really working. He was gonna see a conference room and he was gonna see a hotel. It may be in like New York City, but he wasn't really doing something fun. Right. Not really. Right. Whereas I think some of my friends or peers or whatever are like, oh, here, Here you go, Christian, you're off to another cool place. Right. You know, we just got back from Singapore, right? Cory was in the Singapore Convention Center like the whole time. Right. I got to do cool stuff.

You got to do cool stuff.

All day long. Right. Like, but that's not his life. Even when it was with YO, like there still wasn't that much cool stuff outside of the convention pieces. But I think that most people, normal people, regular people, non-entrepreneurial minded do go, gosh, you're on your phone all the time. You care a whole lot about that. You know, what's going on? You have things here that you should be focused on. And I think that for us, there's just that level of understanding. As we've gotten older, that's changed a little bit more. How so? We've definitely had to talk more about like, okay, we have to leave some of the office stuff at home. I mean, or at the office at home. Right.

Right. The home office.

Yeah.

Yeah, that room.

Yeah, especially so like Corey's, So he's post-exit. He sold his business and then I sort of started my businesses after he sold his. Right. And so there's definitely been times where he's just like a little bit more separated from that. And so he'll be like, can we be done with the business talk tonight?

Yeah.

And that's been a lot of our conversations over the years has been business talk. And I'm like, okay, yeah, you're right. We should talk about something different. Whereas 15 years ago when we were first dating, we wouldn't have done that. We would have been like all in on the business stuff.

Any challenges? I mean, you haven't been married before, so you don't necessarily have a comparison, but any challenges to living or being married to an entrepreneur?

Yeah, I think there's definitely this, oh gosh, like my business is my baby, his business is his baby, and then we also have two actual babies. And so like the juggling of all of those different priorities can sometimes be complicated. And it has to come down to just like so much of where we're at. Brené Brown does this super fantastic thing where she says like, there's no like equality in our relationship. It's like, how much do you have to give to this today? And like, where are you at? And we'd sort of been doing that before we had those fantastic words that she gave as this like great template. But that's kind of what we've done is just like, what do you got going on today? What do you have going on this week? Like, where are we at? Or do you need to have more energy at the office? Like, I was working until 8 o'clock last night, right? And he was at home with the kids making dinner. And like, I didn't feel guilty about that, right? Right. Because we had these conversations. I'm like, my business needs me. And I was working on Content Journey clients last night till way late. Yeah, I think that's just part of it. For us, but it has evolved as our lives have changed and as we've gotten older.

You mentioned, "That's my baby," and I don't know if you read that study that— I don't know if that was one of the—

The Parent Love One?

Yeah. I've wondered if you would get the same results doing an MRI of a female entrepreneur, but you used the words, so you said, "My baby," so we'll go with that. You know, the whole dynamic that you get even with just children, right? Like, so, you know, having favorites or this one's behaving better or more like me or whatever. How do you handle that objectivity of all of your children? I don't know. Not just the real ones, but the imaginary ones.

Yeah. You know, I don't know that we do all the time successfully, to be perfectly like honest. I definitely think that the ones that I've created are better than the ones that he's created. Right?

Right.

And so like, but there is this part of like, if everything's on fire, which one are you putting out first? And, you know, Corey's talked about this openly a lot lately, actually. He just went to Ottawa and gave a conference talk about his own burnout. And he had 4 investments, 1 business he was actively working in, the others that he was, you know, having meetings and was involved. And I only had Content Journey at the time, and he was totally done, 100% burnt out, anxiety when he went to the computer, like could not do it. And we were in a unique situation where I could step up, right, and get involved in all of those businesses, right? And was able to do that because I had general knowledge. But the truth is, if all of them would've been on fire, so Content Journey and then his 4, I probably still would've chosen Content Journey. Of course. Right? And so, yeah, it changes. Which fire do you put out?

Right.

The one I started.

Right. Well, that seems fair.

Yeah. I mean, objectively, there have been real conversations where we're like, which one is worth the most? Which one's making the most money? Which one has the most like potential. And so we've definitely had those talks too, of like kind of ranking.

Yes. I— what I did, what I did with my children, my actual children, was I said, I love all of you unconditionally. Now, before you consider me an ogre, I did this when they were teenagers. I didn't do this when they were actual children. But I said, you know, I love you all unconditionally. The same, but I do have favorites and it's based upon your behavior and it can change at any moment. So it got to be kind of a running joke where they were like, am I number one today? And I'm like, no, actually you're not.

You're kind of, you know, absolutely. But no, it's, it's the truth, right? Like businesses change and they evolve and they all have— not all, but they have like cyclical pieces of it. And so it's like which one needs our attention now? I mean, and definitely all of a sudden overnight when I was running 5 businesses, not entirely, there were 2 that had teams of their own, but 3 that didn't, that it was like, okay, who needs my attention today? And where is that gonna go?

Who can just keep crying?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Who could just like keep going?

Well, yeah, I mean, you see parents with like 3 young children and it's like, It's like one's wailing and you're like, "Yeah, I get it. I mean, there's just only so many hands. Sorry." Yes. You're gonna have to figure it out on your own.

Absolutely. There was somebody I hired at the time, and I remember in the interview being like, "There's gonna be a lot of fires, like a lot, all the time, every day. And like, your job is to be like, which of these fires is the biggest?" Right. And like tackle that first.

Right.

And I go, and then like, and even have like perspective of like, Lindsay thinks this is the biggest. Do I think think this is the biggest fire? And like, and yeah, she's still with me. She's awesome.

You didn't run her off?

I didn't, although I probably tried. Honestly, it was a very nutty time of life.

The Chris Project is sponsored by the Rupp Group Coaching and Consulting. If you are interested in implementing some of these suggestions that you've been hearing about, or in general you feel there's parts of your mental game or actually your implementation strategy that you feel is lacking and you love the opportunity to actually start to build yourself into the person that can create the success that you're looking for, please reach out vis-à-vis the link in the show notes to grab a free consultation with us to see if we can help elevate your mental or your business game. Thank you very much. The majority of interviews that I've done, and frankly, the majority of the population are males that are entrepreneurs. I'm curious if you find that the self-reflection piece, the self-understanding piece comes easier as a woman than what you've seen with your male colleagues?

So yes, with male colleagues, not with my spouse. You know Corey Miller really well. Yeah. Like he brings like that, like feminine, like sweet, intuitive self to every conversation. And I'm not quite like that. I bring a little bit more masculine energy to the table.

Okay.

But I would say still with that, comparing myself to my male colleagues, Absolutely. I'm more reflective and intuitive and nuanced within all of these things. But yeah, Corey Miller is definitely an outlier on that grid. I would agree with that. Right?

I'm not even an armchair psychologist. I haven't even— I'm still on the floor. The way the male brain seems to work is very simple and very focused, like on a task. Or an objective. And I think that may be why we're not as predisposed to self-reflection as females who are much more complicated, which is why they don't understand men, because they're like, surely it can't be that simple. It's like, no, it really is. I mean, have I been fed?

Right.

Yeah.

So did you read the part of that same study that you're mentioning that the people they studied, it was like 42 men that were on growth patterns of their business. So it was like highly successful businesses, but they kept calling them overconfident. So the subset of men that they talked to were overconfident. And I thought, okay, yeah, that, that's the one I can get on with. Like most of the male entrepreneurs that I'm around are way overconfident and I would say the females, and general statements, right? Right, right. The females, we're like pretending confidence. And we're always like, at least I, I'm always thinking I'm not good enough. And then I'm around male colleagues that with businesses in varying degrees of success or not compared to mine that act like they're walking around with, you know, a $500 billion company.

Self-assessment is very difficult, right? So like, I don't know that the majority of male entrepreneurs are actually overconfident, but they project it. Yeah. I think the imposter syndrome and the questioning and the self-doubt occurs in men.

Of course it does.

Right? They don't, they hide it.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I think one of the things that is ingrained in the male psyche is strength. Whatever that looks like, right? Mental strength, emotional strength, physical strength, intelligence, right? So to show weakness is kind of like against our character.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would like to see where in that study how they characterize the overconfidence piece. Right. But they did, 'cause they were like the overconfident entrepreneur this, the overconfident father this. That men are confident. Like they really had put those, I don't know, determinations together.

Yeah, but what does that really mean?

And they compared it to women entrepreneurs, female entrepreneurs, and they said that's why they chose to only speak to men was because of this confidence piece. So there's like, and you know, it's from 2017, so it's not like that long ago, but it would be interesting to see that because that kind of made me giggle just a little bit, to be honest, whenever I first read it.

I learned a lot in the locker room when I was young. And, you know, the dynamics of males together, you know, I'm sitting here at 54, don't seem to be particularly different. Still a lot of the same dynamics, right? A lot of the same behavior. I think the thing that I, you know, that I really want to encourage people to do is to— you said, "Why I act the way I do," or "Why I feel the way I do." I didn't really start asking those questions until much later in life. And I don't understand necessarily the reticence to not ask those questions other than just, you know, the aversion of the unknown or possibly the avoidance of pain. But What would be the downside of knowing yourself better? Right? What's the downside?

You may not like it. Right? That's the fear. That's the fear. That's what holds people back, I think. Because even when you do talk to a therapist and you still hold back, it's like, what happens when I get to the end of this? That fear is so debilitating for people that sometimes you Aren't even able to be honest with yourself.

I think there's this, and I don't know if there's a clinical term, but like this stage where you don't even know that there is an issue. Not that I'm not necessarily even avoiding the fixing it. I'm not even realizing that I have a problem.

Right, absolutely. Well, and we do this too. Like, let's take it back to entrepreneurship. When you are highly effective at your job and you're making money and you have a spouse and everything looks like it's going well, what could possibly be wrong? But then when you start looking at it, you're like, there's some really funny statistics out there, which I can't remember right now, that says an overwhelming amount of entrepreneurs have some type of mental health diagnosis. Sure. Right? But when you're out there performing, right? What, what's anyone going to question it, right?

Yeah. And, and I think, you know, and I, and I talked to Pish on another episode about this, that at least it wasn't my case, and I, I can see where it would be applicable in a lot of cases. The entrepreneur sees the world as they want it, right? And not necessarily as it is, right? And so in a lot of ways, the business becomes a coping mechanism that they make the way they want it, whether that's healthy or not.

Right, absolutely. Well, it, so I, on the tip of my tongue is this thing that I've heard so many times. I don't think it's mine, but I don't remember where I heard it from, but it's like the best entrepreneurs are just completely delusional.

Yes.

But it goes back into that because we are making our way and like we're successful because we see this future. Right. Whatever it is for our business or the world or whatever we're trying to do. And we just chase it with like complete abandon and delusion. Right. And I feel that about myself all the time. I'm like, I'm completely delusional because I talk to the team. We do like highs, lows, and surprises in our team meetings. And I'm always surprised that I haven't— that we don't have 20 new clients this week. And they all kind of laugh and I'm like, no, I'm really serious. I keep thinking I'm going to wake up one day and people are going to be like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad we found this tool and this team that can help us. And I'm like, I'm like shocked every day it doesn't happen. Yes. And so it's like, but I think that's chasing that, knowing that that's there is what kind of keeps me going. And then another thing you touched into is like this identity piece. So like now we go back into like Lindsey's therapist world. Right. And like how much do we put this success of our business and our life and this future that we've painted and make that our identity?

Oh. Yeah, universally.

Universally, and it's not just entrepreneurs at all that do this. Like lots of people choose their work as their identity, but I think it's very acute in entrepreneurs, right?

Yeah, and that's what intrigued me about that brain study because if you think about it in terms of like, you look at your children as your progeny, they're part of you, Right? They reflect part of you. They are your future. Right? And so when they don't perform, it reflects on you. Right? If your kid misbehaves in public and you're like, "Oh my God, what kind of parent am I?" Right? I just had a flashback of an incident at Disney World. It was at Disney World all day. We were tired. We get on the bus. And my kids sit down and these older adults walk on and I'm looking at them waiting for them to stand up. Yeah. And then I have to ask them to stand up and then they give me grief about it. And I was just fuming about it. That level of emotional intensity, right? Where it is your identity, because they were reflecting on me, right? At that point. That goes into the business where, like, if the business does something stupid or, or fails or embarrasses me, that, that's me. It's not just the business, right?

Absolutely. It's not market conditions. It's not the economy. It's like I made poor choices and this thing happened, right? And yeah, so this is interesting. So we started doing this early, early at Content Journey. And again, like, I was raised by a narcissistic father. I worked in politics for 10 years.

I'm so sorry.

I know, right? I can handle tough criticism, right? Like, it's kind of— I would use to tease. I'm like, no one else could work with this elected official. Like, I can handle it. Like, it's fine. And so feedback from clients was never something that, like, touched my heart, never touched my soul. It was like, oh, okay, we missed the mark on that. Like, We need to do better. Thank you so much for that feedback. Let's get to it. And early, early, every person that was working with me was like, but I, but I wrote that. That's, that's my work. It's my project. I worked really hard on that. Right? Like, I'm really proud of what I did. And I'm like, we can't, we can't be proud of that work. Right? And that's not who you are. Like, I want— I shouldn't say that. Like, I want you to be proud of what you've done, but that's not you. And I think that's where that mental health counseling stuff helped me talk through that with people is like, you have to separate those designs or those pieces of writing or those emails you did from who you are as a successful person. And so we say it all the time now, we're editors, critique us, we can handle it. And we just keep saying it and saying it and saying it so that when those those harsh criticisms do come in and they do, you can't possibly put your brain in somebody else's like brain and know their business better than them.

Right, right.

It's just never going to happen. But when we're like way far off, we have to be like, it's okay. Like, we'll go back to the drawing board together. We can do this. And you're still successful here. You still have a safe space here.

Right.

And so, but anyway, but there is that like identity piece that gets so wrapped up in all of it. That's really hard when things don't go like they're supposed to.

We work with a lot of creatives as clients at Core, and I think for someone who's passionate about what they do, whether they're an entrepreneur or not, it is harder to separate versus I'm just doing a job or I'm just doing a task or I'm just doing work, right?

Like, absolutely.

I kind of envy those people that they're like, I, you know, I don't really give a shit that you didn't like this. I did it the way you told me to do it, you know?

Yeah. Which is the people we want on our team anyway, right? Like there's this weird balance of like caring but not getting wrapped up. Right. So what we talk a lot about, and you probably do this too, is just like you have workplace safety, you're allowed to make mistakes. Mistakes can happen here and that's okay. Right. And we have guardrails in place and quality control processes and all those things. But even if that still gets to a client and they're unhappy, you don't— you're not going to get fired right away.

Right.

Like, that's not going to happen. Like, we're going to figure it out. And that's something I see so much is like people come in and they're working for me and they're just nervous balls of like all the time because they've just been in some really bad workplaces previously. And so there's a whole lot of creating safety.

I had— my marketing director has been with me for 3 years and she came from a bad work environment. Where it wasn't safe. And so, like, it was real hard for her to adapt to letting her be herself, right? Like, so you, you leave— when you work out of a space of fear, you're naturally contracted, right? And so you're not bringing your best. You can't bring your best.

Absolutely. And but think about how those entrepreneurs are functioning, too, if that's the kind of workplace that they're creating. Let's go back to the parental love thing. How are they looking at their business? And also, how are they looking at their kids? But anyway, but how are they functioning in the world? It doesn't sound like it's very healthy.

Again, going back to the, it's a coping mechanism. It's giving them whatever they need in that moment, but it's not necessarily what they really need. No. Right? For a very long time, I had this attitude Every time I say it, it just feels icky. I even put it to words and came out of my mouth that I can do any job in this business better than anybody else can, right? And therefore, I had a lot of trust issues. And so, right? Because I didn't trust that I would delegate something to somebody and it would be done the way I wanted it.

Yeah.

Which in reality it was, you would've done it the way I would've done it, right? Not that it was done well, it was done the way I would've done it. Likewise, there was no reciprocal trust because it was like, well, if I screw up, you're just gonna come in and fix it anyway, right?

Absolutely.

And I remember feeling like if something was gonna happen in the business, it depended upon me to make it happen. Getting to the point where I now lead a team where I help them solve problems rather than doing it the way I would do it, it's completely liberating. To get to that point of saying and having that trust of like, okay, that's not the way I would have done it and that's not necessarily the outcome that I would have expected. You did a good job.

Yeah, absolutely. I, I feel like, you know, I talked about to Kenna about this all the time. She's our content director and she has a PhD. She's a little bit— she's a dummy, right? Exactly. I hire the worst of the worst around here. But yeah, she has a PhD in journalism. She was a college professor for almost 20 years and wanted to change. And honestly, she applied to be my assistant which I quickly was like, this is not going to work. I wasn't ready for a different position here, but like, you're also too good to not have here. And it was like very early on I realized I was hiring people way better than me. Yeah, because of her. I mean, like, her grammar is 100% on point, right? I don't want to send an email without her looking at it. But I do think it gave me that perspective early on in my business of like, okay, this, this is kind of cool. Like, right, I— she can do this and actually do better. I had to teach her how to do other things like marketing, right? But as far as like writing and precision and interviewing clients and turning it around into something, like, it's amazing, right? Like, she's still with me. I would like be so devastated without her, right? And I can't jump in and do the things the way that she does now.

Yeah, that's the power as a leader, is to understand it's not what you can do, it's what you can motivate, uh, manipulate, whatever you can get others to do, right? That's the— that's your power as a leader, not what you can do, right?

Bring everyone together and like, let's all go do this thing together, right? Corey Miller, this is something that like, he and I are very different leaders, um, like 100%. Like, he's the kind that's like, I love you, we're family. And I'm like, I like you a whole lot, we're gonna do some cool work together. But like, it works for him. But what he did is he had this motto, "Make people's lives awesome." Like, they were a software company, but every day they were making people's lives awesome, and he had this whole thing of how to do it. And they're still connected. Like, they're all still in this, like, post-it theme Slack channel of, like, being there because they were together around this awesome mission of making people's lives awesome, right? They were building tools that made people's lives better. And so I've kind of carried some of that with me too, because it is like, who cares if you have blog posts or emails or lead ads? Like, who, like, really, is that the most important work ever? And it's not. And so we talk a whole lot about like, we want client successes. Like, a new client for us isn't a success. A success is when our clients win, right? And so like, that's what we kind of rally around. It's also why we've niched so specifically with like clients that we want to work with on the content journey side is because we put all of ourselves in to it. And we work really, really hard for people. And so it's like, we want to work for good people doing good work in the world and not the others. So we've, you know, exited people when we found out that like maybe there wasn't a good fit.

Right.

And turned down those dollars and made some of those hard decisions. But it's kept our team in such a positive capacity and, yeah, made it a good work environment, I think.

Yeah, and I think, you know, with the advent of new technologies, I think the development of those technologies, people are going to make money at for sure. But the majority of us are going to just have to use others' technology. And our value is going to be in the people that we bring to the table. It's not going to be processes. It's not going to be technology. It's going to be, do you have people that give a shit and do they work well together?

Absolutely. And I think like, go back to— is it Dana? Is that your marketing person?

Delaina.

Delaina. So close. So going back to like Delaina's work environment, I think people, especially nowadays, sniff out those kind of companies too.

Yes.

As clients and customers and consumers. And they're like, oh, I don't want to do business with them. I want to do business with people who are also good to their people. Sure. And I think more and more people are caring about that. So like from that holistic entrepreneurship space is like, if you do care about the success of your business, you better start looking at it from the inside in that capacity because people are going to sniff you out. And figure out that you're not the kind of person they want to work with either.

Yeah. Yeah. What would you— what advice would you give to your younger pre-entrepreneur self around the whole mindset, mental health, self-awareness issue?

I mean, that's a good one. Honestly, I think if I had any hindsight, I'd go get a job and have a pension and a 401.

No, you wouldn't.

Yeah, you're probably right. Now, uh, what advice would I give myself? I think that for sure I did, like everybody, and early on, and still sometimes do, like intertwine my self-identity with my business and the success of the business so much. I've always leaned into work. Work is a safe space for me. I can succeed at work. I can succeed at work better than I can anything else that I do. And so I think I would be more purposeful about being like, from the very beginning, like, just take care of yourself. Like, have regular, I don't know, massages or retreats or whatever it is that needs to happen of just like taking time that's not pushing all the time.

Are you there yet?

Probably not. I'm very guilty of pushing myself so hard until I get sick and/or fall asleep on the couch at like 6 o'clock, which happens. Last week. So no, I'm not there yet, but I try to be. I'm at least more aware that I need to do it now.

Do you understand your motivations for that?

Oh yeah, absolutely. Like I still very much have all that identity. And even like pivoting attention away from Content Journey onto my marketing assistant has been really, really tough because, and some of that's just because of like the changes in the landscape. Where like you— Content Journey is a higher-end offering and my marketing assistant is a more accessible offering and we're using more technology and we're using some of all of these new things. We were using AI before everybody was talking about it, which makes me really mad, but you know, but yeah, so some of those, those pivots are still really tough for me to get through of just like Content Journey is still here and alive, but it may not be in a year. Right. It may get sucked into my marketing assistant, whereas previously I'm like, these are two totally separate things, and now they're not quite as separate. But anyway, so no, the answer is no.

I think one of the things that I've noticed over the years is that people want control. They want known outcomes, right? That's the way our brains are wired. And that makes perfect sense until it doesn't, because a lot of things that we think we control, we don't. There's an illusion. That's my favorite saying is control is an illusion. Like, what do you really have control over? Not much.

Right.

Right. For me, that was kind of a tipping point to say, you know, I don't have control over what I thought I had control over. I thought I did, but in reality I don't.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if we were in a therapy session, right? That's one of our favorite things to do is like, let's name everything we can control and everything that we can't. And really at the end of the day, the only thing we can control is our own actions and thoughts and feelings, right? Our own things and everything else is outside of the scope. Yeah, that's good, Christian.

What would be your parting thoughts or words on the topic of entrepreneurship? I'll just say mental health, but like understanding that that encompasses a lot of things.

It really does. Yeah, I think, you know, parting thoughts about entrepreneurship and mental health just comes down to, and I think this is my perspective as well, right? Where, and I don't know if anyone else would come in with this hard of a thought, but we, we really set the stage for everything around who we touch within our business, like our people, our team, the clients that we work with. Like all of that is so important that it be handled in a way that is thoughtful and respectful. And I do feel like it's this new way of entrepreneurship that the way that things were done maybe 20 or 30 years ago just aren't going to fly anymore. Like we have to take care of our people. And we have to care about the environment that we're in and the clients that we're doing. It's not just about money. Right. Um, obviously there has to be money there too, but I just don't think it's this major driving factor anymore. It is this like, let's take care and do the right thing.

Right.

And when we think of it like that, I think the mental health and the entrepreneurship and the success all kind of go hand in hand. Right? You're happier as a leader, your team is happier as a team, you know, your clients are finding success because you're approaching it that way. Right. And so, I feel like when we're looking at those as metrics of success, as opposed to just all of the numbers, I think that can really, like, propel each of us individually and the communities that we serve. Forward.

I love it. Well, Lindsay, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.