Mastering Course Creation: Focus on Outcomes | Dr. Carrie Rose

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. A special shout out to our one listener in Moscow. I hope they speak English because we don't speak Russian. Thank you for listening. Joining me today as a guest, Dr. Carrie Rose of, of course, Horse is a horse, of course. Sorry, I couldn't help it.

You're fine.

Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Christian. Thank you for having me. And now I will have the Mr. Ed theme song stuck in my head for the rest of the day. So thank you for that too.

I have a t-shirt on one of my headshots that I don't wear anymore because I'm too fat. It says, I speak fluent movie quotes. And it's I— it's a, it's a curse because almost anything anybody says I can tie back to. It just— random connection shows up. It's either a movie, a TV show, a commercial, a song. It's, it's awful.

I am a walking Internet Movie Database, so I blame it on working for Suncoast Motion Picture Company before the internet was a big thing. And having to know all the actors and directors and everything for the clients that came through. But yeah, it hasn't gone away. I can definitely slay a 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon anytime.

Well, you know, I'm awful at actors. Like, I'll be like, you know that guy that played in that movie and he looks like this, but I never remember names, or very few of them. So tell us about— of course, of course, I'm sorry, I can't help it.

Of course. It's fine. It's supposed to be catchy.

Um, actually, it is very catchy.

Yeah, one of my former clients helped name it. Um, so, and he was the second most retweeted by chief marketing officers at the time, so like really spoke on 300 stages a year in marketing and was like, this is your name. And I'm like, sir, thank you.

Of course it is.

Of course it is.

You could go on forever.

Yeah, but, um, so basically with our business, what we do is we take what people know and we turn them into online programs that people can learn from. My doctor is in ed leadership with a dissertation on professional development. So I'm kind of a specialized nerd when it comes to professional development, but I've built programs in spiritual development and, you know, of course, tons of business development. So it doesn't really matter to me what the topic is. It's more about helping people. I created a process based on over 500 research studies on how the human brain connects to content. And as a result, we've gotten clients as high as 97% completion rates when the industry average is 3 to 5%. So, my focus is always showing up and serving the people. And, if you just really focus in on that, you're going to do better than a lot of other people out there.

So— Well, I'm very fascinated to learn about your business because I have lots of questions about that. Sure. But, what did you do before?

Before that?

Starting, of course.

Yeah. So, right before that, I was in education for a decade. So, when I was really young, I saw something I probably shouldn't have witnessed as a 4-year-old, blacked out, came to, had selective mutism for 6 years. Um, and I'm also dyslexic, uh, auditory processing issues, ADHD, really high IQ, thankfully, one up. But, um, so I entered 5th grade not knowing how to read, and I had one teacher take me from that to the highest standardized test score that school had seen in one year. So she taught me what you can do with another human when you care and you know the right strategies. And, um, as a result, I spent 10 years in public ed just really trying to be Mrs. Taylor? Like, how do I take on her essence and do for these kids what she did for me? Um, that was what led me to getting my doctorate, which led me to doing everything else. But before that, yeah, you were doing it with primary, uh, I taught K through college, so all the way across the board. Um, yeah, I did love kindergarten and first grade the most, so I have to say they're just sweet, and they'll come over and go, here's a flower, like, I thought of you, you know, they're just Sweet kids.

They are. Yes, the innocence of children. I don't want to skip over something you said. Yeah. I was watching on the recommendation of my business coach, the show Wave and War, a documentary on Netflix. I think it just came out.

I have not seen it. Tell me.

Well, it is on the study that Stanford University did on the treatment of PTSD with imogen. It's a hallucinogenic root. Okay. And of course, they had to do the study down in Mexico because it's not legal here, but it was under Stanford's auspices. It was a fascinating documentary. I guess I bring that up because you referenced a trauma. Have— this is a question out of left field. Have you tried any psychedelics in the treatment of that or had any experience professionally with psychedelics in treatment?

Yeah, I was really young when it happened, so they weren't handing out LSD to 4-year-olds. No, but I could say, like, I did a lot of counseling when I was younger. I find that that's not— for people that can debate with counselors, it doesn't help as much. But, a lot of somatic healing practices. I went through Tony Robbins' EPW. I've done a lot of just internalizing the work on myself and making sure that I'm good. And, I don't really concern myself with what other people did or said. I also reflect on it and realize I was 4 years old and I couldn't really change the situation and nor could I protect. Like, if I were there now, I could have protected myself, but I wasn't there for me. Nobody was there for me, but that's okay. Like, I'm still here. And as a result, I get to do a lot of helping people. I get to do a lot of good because of what I've gone through that I don't think would matter to me as much without the same experience. So, it's wild.

You wouldn't be able to help people without the experience.

Not the same, for sure. I mean, I'm an Enneagram 2, so I'm like the helpy helperton of the bunch, but I still don't think I would have cared that much about this specific thing. And, when I look at the impact that I've created through either directly in classroom environments with children or through the ripple effect from the experts that I've worked at through their programs, it's amazing. I'm grateful that I've been part of this work. So, I just move through the days like that and don't think about it too much.

I was just curious because the whole psychedelic treatment of mental disorders, I mean, it was primarily PTSD, right? And so, they were dealing with Navy SEALs that had been in Afghanistan and Fallujah. And, you know, these people that were, you know, bad off, suicidal, like, you know, angry. And the changes were just remarkable. And the psychedelics, you know, being born and raised in Oklahoma, and that never crossed my radar, but I've kind of come to the point of like, well, if it works, then why not? But, you know, whatever. All right. We'll move on to something.

No, I think there's value in what you're saying. And they've been saying that for forever. I think Timothy Leary was doing Harvard studies at Harvard in like the late '60s. Right. And so, and that I think got shut down. But, you know, I've heard—

You're not talking about the one he was doing that was the CIA operation.

I think you're thinking— Yeah, I don't know. He might be attached to Project Paperclip. I mean, there's some Netflix-related things about that too. We can go on, I feel, Tim.

We're going down a rabbit hole. Okay, let's go back to— I am very curious of course. Of course. All right. My experience in both participating in online courses and in producing online courses is that nobody does them, which you said, the studies show that. How much of it is that the content is not good or not structured correctly versus people— I feel like a lot of people buy or sign up for courses because it's a low ask, it's a low investment, and that somehow contributes to their, their participation. Like, it's—

yeah. Well, I think you brought up something important there, right? Um, when I started looking into online course completion rates, one of the only actual study studies that I found— like, I'm a, you know, I'm a total stats geek— the only study study that I found was basically like, if you don't charge, they won't finish, period. So that's the one we know there's a direct correlation between the two, right? But then when you're saying like, too, like, it's a low dollar amount— well, it depends on what the program is. Like, I've paid $6K for online course before. So it really depends on what the person thinks the value is going to be inside of the program. But for me, you know, the— you're always going to have the treadmill, right? Like, so I think about it in terms of this, like, if someone buys a treadmill in January, in February is where they hang their clothes, right? A lot of people are like that, and you see the gym's drop-off rate because it's an idea that sounded good at the time, and when they hit the purchase button they felt like they solved the problem. They got the good chemicals that released that said, I solved my problem, I'm good, move on, right? And so there's always going to be some of those. There probably is some psychological aspect in terms of that price correlation there, right? But, you know, what I like to think about is what can we control for? Look, if I had an Italian restaurant and I had people leaving with like 95% of their plate still full and they're not asking for doggie bags when they go out the door, I'm going to wonder what's wrong with my food. I'm not going to question what's wrong with them. I'm going to question what's wrong with this whole restaurant because I'm seeing it over and over and over again. Right. And so I believe it's up to you course creators to, if you're going to put something out there, making sure it's A, the right offer in the first place, I think is the most pivotal choice that they can make, um, outside of the structure of it. So I feel like there's a lot of course creators that will do— like, I feel like most course creators are either really good people or want to make a lot of money. So I'm just going to focus on the really good people for a moment, right? Because there's always going to be marketers. Um, they have a lot of knowledge, and what they'll do is like, I want to share my knowledge, right? And so they'll throw everything in their course, and I call it the everything but the kitchen sink course, right? And they've just like put everything in it. But when you take a second and step back, nobody wants to be you. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but they don't want to know everything you know. They want to get their outcome and that's it. And if you could sell them a $1,000 wrench for a $10,000 outcome, they take the wrench, skip your course, and move on with their life. And so that's the part to really think about is like, what is the outcome they want? How fast can you give it to them? And can you give it in a way that requires actual transformation and not just passive, yeah, I got this, right? So like what actually happens there?

So would you say, I have a I'm going to throw out a random thought and you can ignore it, or we can go back and talk to it, but about it. But I wonder, I wonder if you had a refund pricing upon course completion, if that would affect— I wonder if you've seen that. Okay, back to— yeah, okay. So let's go back to the, the, this, this question I have. Do you perceive that, um, the primary purpose of course content courses is the transference of knowledge, or, or is it something else?

I believe that when they take a program, they should know, do, and be something different than when they started it. So, I mean, to me, that's what like true learning looks like. It's the know, do, be. It's not just the know. Most courses live in the know. Some courses add the do, but the be is a different person. You know, and you can think about it in like this grand way of like, oh, like I had this major life transformation and this Phoenix moment, or it could be simple. Like, you know, if someone went from becoming a basketball player to a basketball coach, they had to become a different person in order to do that. It's not like they didn't have the knowledge of basketball. They knew the game already. But in order to get out there on the court and make sure that the whole team could go right, they had to step into a different role. And we are constantly evolving and constantly becoming somebody else. But when we create online courses, we usually forget that. I saw it really heavily in this branding course I took back when I first started in the online marketing space in 2014, I think. Yes, 2014. And in it, it said, you know, oh, I need a color, a logo, a tagline, a website. You know, all of these things, and then said, okay, go build that. And I was like, what? I had no idea how I should think about it. But because I know enough to know how to think about things, like I've taught enough people how to think over the years, like how to, how to critically think and solve problems on a larger scale. I started going, okay, let me pull up other websites and see what people who would be in similar fields to myself, what their colors feel like to me. How would I compare this one to that one? How would I analyze this from a customer's perspective? What's missing here for me? What would be great if they had it? You know, and starting to pick it apart. But that's me becoming and training myself to be a different person. Whereas if I just did the, okay, now go get a tagline, I would have had no real understanding of what that meant.

But did you think that you got that from the course? I mean, it didn't sound like—

No, no, no. When I build programs with clients, it's always in there because I get that part. But I don't think most courses ever touch on that.

No. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. What do you see most— so, so most people that you work with, is content creation, course creation their business, or do they create these courses in support of other businesses?

I like the second one better. In fact, we rarely take on clients that are the first one, um, because it's, it's too— some people sell it as like the jump into entrepreneurship, and to me it's a risky jump into entrepreneurship. So especially if they're going to take the time and invest with me in building something, you know, sustainable, I want it to be a part of something long-term. Now, if they're starting out and they've already done a lot of things and they're creating a consulting business and we can map out like other offers as well, that'll be a part of, because that I think is something that they can sustain long-term. Um, but I usually don't get involved if it's a one-off program and that's it. Um, yeah, I just don't think I have a pretty good heart and high degrees of integrity. I want to make sure people that come to me are good. Yeah.

So, so when you're looking at creating courses to support your, your, your business, what does that primarily look like? Is that Um, is that like an intro offer? Is that a, uh, in support of marketing? Like what, what, what does it usually do?

Where does it go? I know it. I don't usually have like a bucket that it usually falls in. Right. And I could say that this could, of course, could be for any business offer. Um, I'll give you an example and then we'll go into like the funnel placements and what my strategy is behind that. But so my grandparents ran a funeral home. Um, actually, if you're familiar with My Girl. They were the second funeral home, like, in line to be where the My Girl movie was filmed. That one was down the road, but they had this thing where they would— yes, yes.

You say my grandparents are in a funeral home?

No, they ran one.

Okay, I heard they're in— I'm like, is it like residents or passing through?

Like, okay, no, thank you for clarifying. No, they ran one for— I mean, at least that one in particular, I don't know, 40 years before, um, they, they passed on. Um, but while they were there, they always told me about the same problem that people had, is that they didn't have like a pre-needs agreement in place. And what that is, is like you can go to a funeral home ahead of time and say, hey, when I pass, I want everything to be this, this, this, and this. And the reason you do that is so that your loved ones don't have to make those decisions when they're crying their eyeballs out, right? It's really hard. Everyone there is hurting. And so if they were alive today, I would tell them, hey, let's do a mini course on that that's free, that's just educating them on why they need that, right? And how they can help like get that in place. So I mean, that could be something— that's what I say, I use it as an obscure example, but I want to say like any business model, I haven't seen one that it couldn't work for. Now, when it comes to should you do an online course or where to do an online course, the first thing I want everyone to consider is their own life and what they want in it. It. And that's like the most important thing for me, especially for your podcast and how creatives work. If they don't want something in particular, they're not going to stick to it. So I feel like most people are like that, but creatives especially. Like, so, you know, it's like, okay, if you want something that's static, you might want an online course. If you want to go into corporations, you might want to do consulting. You want to be an author, you might not make money at it, but it's a great calling card. You know, if you wanna do online coaching, if you did it one-on-one, that's a lot of hours. If you do it in a group coaching session, that's gonna be a specific day commitment all of the time. So where do these things fall for each person? It's depending upon them, what they wanna do with it, their audience specifically. That part is the part that most people don't start with thinking out. Your customer avatar comes before everything else, and then the content itself and where it fits in your value ladder, right? So do you start off with an online course? I don't know. You may start off with a full-scale event if you can market enough people to be in the room, you know. Maybe the online course is the back offer, or maybe there's another retreat and then there's another one. It really depends on the business model, customer acquisition, and the individual, you know. There's just a lot of mitigating factors there.

So, so what do you see is, is the best use for, uh, an online course for businesses? Like, you, you mentioned a lot of options there, so what gap does the course fill?

It depends on the business, but like, I'll tell you this, my favorite funnel that I've been doing a lot of, especially with startup, um, consultants, is if they don't know 100% their process yet, we can build their course, build their additional coaching package that goes with the course, and then that information can also be their consulting package. So now they have 3 offers from 1 offer. And then working that backwards, you can take the course and then splice it down to be like a smaller version of it becoming their, um, low-dollar offer, and then different lead magnets from the low-dollar offer. So now you have like a full funnel. And also the course can become videos that they do on like, uh, you know, Reels like Instagram or TikTok or even LinkedIn.

How, how it seems like if you're going to put the money and effort into doing something that is essentially static, it's got to be evergreen, that is not going to be fluid and change. Is, is that a false assumption?

Well, change it might. So even when people work with me, I, I I recommend them listening to their audience over time because your audience is going to tell you, especially if you ask them or do a net promoter score at the end, or specifically ask them, you know, what did you love about this course and what did you feel was missing for you? Because look, if somebody says like, hey Carrie, I felt like I didn't get a video on X and I really didn't quite understand that, I would go shoot a video on that, put it in the course, send them an email with the link to it and thank them, you know. And also there's to say too if you're doing anything with technology, you're going to have to do updates. So, like, that's a given. That's a have-to.

Do you use a specific platform or recommend a specific platform, or do you help people create their own?

So, I usually don't get involved in that. I stay in my lane. So, I'm not— I'm as tech savvy as I am, but not tech savvier. My dad has tech patents, not me. But so, Mine is more like what exists already in terms of learning management systems. There are quite a few out there that are great, but personally I tend to play with Thinkific, Teachable, and Kajabi the most. Those just seem to have what my clients are looking for and also seem to be agreeable with, you know, other, you know, tech integrations and compatibility.

How much time and money should a business plan on spending to create a course?

That depends. Really, it depends. I mean, you could— right now I could shoot this in my, my house. I could shoot a course tomorrow if I wanted to, and I had it all mapped out, and I could go ahead and try, you know. Um, I had one client that had a cameraman, follow him, fly with him to every city that he was in for the year, film him in every location for content for his YouTube videos and for his course, right? So you can go like the high lows of this. Um, you know, I think there's, there's things to be said for that. Like, you know, the, the worst thing you could do is sit on it and not try anything. And if time or money are your you know, your biggest hiccups. Well, let's say this: if you don't have money, you always have time. Maybe not always, but you have time for sure, right? And it might take a little bit extra effort. I know plenty of people that have worked 3 jobs in their life, right, at some point in time. So you can definitely get that out there.

Okay, so what is the ideal person you're looking for to work with? Like, who's your target or best fit?

Yeah, it changes a lot. Not a lot, a lot, but what happens is I just like, you know, I really love my clients. And so like, I'll take pieces and parts from them over the years and then change it. But I think one thing that holds true for me is they really have to be an expert in what they're teaching, right? So I've been in beginner marketing circles and communities and, you know, listen to conversations that have been happening since the onslaught of AI. And one of the things that scares me is when people go into AI and ask, what's my process? I will rewrite your process for you, but I won't use what AI says your process is, because usually what ends up happening is they'll get like an acronym and let's say the acronym is HELP. And I'm like, okay, well, do you know each of those letters? Like, are you really confident? Are you really the expert in each of those? Well, I don't know E&L. Okay, well, that's not the course you should do, right? So for me, they have to be someone that knows what they're talking about, but I guess probably doesn't have, you know, gosh, what's it called when you feel like you're not good enough? The words are gone right now.

Imposter?

Yes, yes. Okay, I'll say this, like most people that are actually really good at what they do end up with imposter syndrome because they're thinking about it. The ones that don't have imposter syndrome, they're actually the ones that I'm more concerned about a little bit, right? But I do feel like it is something that if it's, if it's a personal development thing, then it's your process. Like, what is your real process? If it's a business thing, okay, what's your SOP? What are you known for? What is your business known for? Like, but it's got to be substantial for me in order for me to take it on as a client, because the thing is, like, I don't I, as I said, I don't want to do anything with anybody that's not going to give them a win, you know. And so if you're not actually the one, people will see that, and I don't want that for anybody. So like, it's really got to be someone that can, you know, if I had a conversation about it, they could give me the goods. If I have a conversation with them and they can't tell me what they do, they're probably not the one for us to have, you know, to continue that. That at this point, you know.

Do you see, circling back to the production time and cost, do you see any correlation between the time and cost and either the, the price, pricing of the course or the success of the course?

Yeah, I mean, I think when you get into like higher levels of production quality, You know, um, and higher level programs, you can charge more. Like for my clients, I tell them not to charge anything less than $1,000, you know, and if they're not comfortable than that, then again, we're not the right fit for this course or this program. Um, because A, their ROI needs to be that, but B, I also want them to be able to invest in high-level video production. You know, you know how important sound is. If they don't have good sound, people aren't going to want to listen to the rest of it. That's a reason for people to turn off the computer, right? So these things do impact it, but then there should be like some sort of a connection between that too. So what, so it goes back to again, the objective, what is the customer getting out of this program? Does it solve a high value problem? Is that value enough that they can charge that amount? Does it make sense in the grand scheme of things?

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Kind of circling back to my original question of like, what is the purpose of a course. How do you see the impact of AI in content creation as a substitute for courses? Not like in the production or making of it, but does that worry you at all?

No, it doesn't worry me. I think it's something that for me, I'm always a very discerning individual, um, so I question everything. So I don't have a problem working with AI because I will argue with it. I'm pretty sure if Skynet takes over, they're coming for me first. But like, I feel for people that just accept whatever AI says. That's the part that I think is scary. Um, I know that AI has ended a relationship of somebody that I knew because they were getting relationship coaching through AI. AI hallucinates, and so, and it'll tell you the same things over and over again, and it'll tell you whatever it thinks you want to hear at this moment in time. And I don't know at what point that's going to be worked out. So in terms of will it replace, I mean, I think there's ways to make it a part of the journey. For me, I chose online courses as like a business model because it made sense from an economic perspective for my clients to do it that way. So what I mean by that is we're building courses, they're reducing the amount of time for money exchange that they have going on because the static program they're not as involved in. But from— I could also teach how to teach in all the other different venues as well. So it doesn't, it doesn't concern me like that. For me, I would rather see people getting excited about potentially building their own AI that they can add on. To the program down the road. But like, is it ready right now? I don't know. I'm not a programmer. Certainly open to inviting the conversation.

Well, I had a recent guest. He was on the show a second time, and he made an observation about AI that I had not even considered. But, but he said algorithms you know, be they Google Ads or Facebook or now AI, have a desire to feed you content that keeps you engaging with it. Yes. And I'd never really thought about that from the AI standpoint. And so, you know, his premise was it's going to give you the answer it thinks you want. And I'm like, hmm, okay, now I can see where that's problematic. Right? Do you agree, disagree?

No, absolutely. And that's what I was saying, like, I argue with it. I don't ever accept what AI is saying unless it's my grocery list. That's it. Like, you know, I'll have it like find me weekly menu options for like this, this, and this dietary restrictions. And then, okay, are they 5 stars? Great. Now put my list together. That I don't argue with, you know. But when it comes to anything my personal life, my business life, even if I'm getting creative. And I think that also comes down to, like, you know, my background is in theater before I went into education, and I got really familiar with, like, words. Like, I had to read every single Shakespeare play ever and also give actors, like, line notes when they'd mess the word up, like, give it something else. I can debate you the difference between the word 'a' and the word 'the,' right? And so for me, words are very particular and very specific. And so if the AI why isn't it telling me what I want to hear but not necessarily getting it right, I'll notice. But, I think that's, again, it's on us as humans to go, "You're my assistant in this, you're not guiding me." And, I think a lot of people are seeing the tool and they're going, "Oh, you're my sherpa." And, it's not that yet. And, I would be scared of a planet where it becomes that, honestly.

Yeah. I don't think it's possible, frankly, on a general sense. OpenAI or Gemini or any of those being able to do what you're talking about, which is solve problems. I think that because structurally, I don't think it's able to give any context and structurally it's also feeding off of itself. It's a closed loop, right? But as an example, if I were to go to GPT right now and say, help me design, how do I create an online course, right? It's going to give me a plan and it'll keep iterating and say, okay, do you want scripts? You want to know how to work it into your marketing funnel. It'll, it'll keep going, right? In your mind, how is that fundamentally different from hiring you?

Yeah, I know, right? Well, so it takes away the pain point. I'll say that. Like if somebody is like, hey, I want to create an online course, they could do it with me or they could do it with AI. I understand. So it's like, like, yeah, done, pain points over with. But the problem is that the AI is pulling from the internet, right? It's pulling from all of the things that have already been said about online courses. And sometimes it might quote me, that's fine, but like, it doesn't have my process, right? So what I put together is based on over 500 research studies, and my clients are getting up to 97%. What's out there is copies of what's making the 3 to 5% completion rates to begin with. So I'm not concerned about that. Um, I haven't had a problem finding my client base to begin with, and I don't think it's going to be an issue after AI, because there will always be people that actually want results, because they see not only the benefit of what that means in terms of the ripple effect and the legacy for their life, but also what that means financially. I had a client that I evaluated a program for, and they were doing $100 mil annually in online course sales. So Their marketing, really, really good. Holy shit, that's a lot. Yeah, they were doing it. Now, their course completion rates, 3.9%, and they had other programs. So they actually were missing a lot of money based on the fact that they weren't getting additional upsells from the people that were dropping out because they weren't getting the value from the program they purchased in the first place. And I could tell them in 2 seconds what was wrong with the course. They ended up selling the business because they also had supplements attached to it. And so anyways, didn't get to fix the problem for them. I'd love to give you updated numbers, but this is what happens with businesses, right? It's like they only think about the first sale. And now as we're looking at how even increasingly more difficult it is to get traction on social media, like they're getting rid of hashtags in some places. They've got, you know, in terms of like, how are we getting in front of people with the algorithm? How are the ads working? Like ads have been more and more difficult or becoming more and more expensive. So it's not like the same wild, wild west it was when I first got into online marketing or even the those before me. So, it's like, when you have a customer, you need to value that customer. You need to really take them into consideration and actually show up and serve. So, if you want to put something in front of them to just put something in front of them, go ahead. I mean, AI is great for that. But if you don't, if you want something that you want it to make a difference, that's when they would talk to someone like me.

So, I was at a mastermind earlier this year of of digital agency owners.

Okay.

And I didn't know any of them, none of them were clients, um, but I got invited as a guest. And so I'm a fly on the wall listening, and one of the things they talked about was their client retention. And the, the group was sharing their own data, uh, and they were all very pumped because they had gotten their retention, up to like 2 years. Um, and, and, and the industry average was about half that. And I'm like, wait a second. To me, that tells me that the industry and you, even though you're better, are, are fundamentally not solving the problem. I, I, I think it speaks to to the larger problem that exists in marketing and in general, where, you know, technology has made things much easier and quicker and cheaper, but it has done nothing to move the needle on the quality, right? And I think when you're dealing with human behavior, It's impossible for computers to predict because we're not predictable. We're predictably unpredictable, right? And you have people like Rory Sutherland, the author of Alchemy, and these people that delve deeply into that. Irrational behavior of people, right? And I think, I guess what I'm trying to say on that and what it all ties together is that when you're dealing with fixing a person's problem, which is ostensibly what we're talking about here, technology has its limitations in doing that because it can't truly understand a person. What do you say?

So I agree with you on some points, um, in a lot of different ways. So let's start first on that whole, like, does your fulfillment leading to the client actually getting what they need or not, right? If you've got them on the hook for that extended period of time, are they getting it? It depends. It depends in terms of how the retainer program or whatever is set up. So for when my clients work with me, one of the things that I'm like, you know, they're like, hey, we want to do a lot of courses. I'm like, I'm like, well, probably by the time you and I do one, you'll have the system down enough to be able to do more, and then you can just decide if you want my brain in it with you, right? And that's the only thing that would be different. Um, and so that's been, you know, in some cases I've been on extended retainers for 2 and a half years, and in some cases it's like, no, I've got it. I'm like, okay, well, perfect, then you can move on. You know, it— with courses, I, I feel this so deeply in my soul because I found it in a lot of marketing programs and in the way the coaching industry was kind of working when I got into it, the idea was to keep people on the hook. You don't give them enough to make that independence. And that's why I stress that be component so much inside of online courses, because that be, it has more, um, more power, more effect size. It has a greater amount of research that supports it than anything else I've seen in education times 2. Um, it's the most impactful in terms of making that actual transformation is, are, can they be a different person after going through it? And I think a lot of what we end up seeing is kind of recycled learned helplessness. Business, right? It's like, I can't give you my whole thing because if I give you my whole thing, then you're not— you're gonna have it and you don't need me. And it's like, I see it differently. I don't see it like that when I'm working with clients. What I see is, okay, when we're creating your offers and structuring your programs, we're structuring a staircase and different floors, right? Like, we're— how do you get these people to move forward, your customer avatar, to move forward in such a way that's empowering them through each place and not in a way of like they're just on the hook with you forever because there are people that will do that, you know, and there's a lot of it. Like, I know I'm not speaking ill of Tony Robbins, love the community, but like people that are in, they're in and they're never going away. Like, there's a lot of that going on.

It's a cult.

It's, yeah, a little bit. So, but there's a lot of like things where, you know, that kind of community can help and it does help and it can be helpful for certain people, but When it comes to like actually learning, when I'm building courses, I'm building it so you can go from where you are right here to this end of the staircase before you go up to the next floor. But all of this is mastery. We're not looking at surface level knowledge, which I think is what a lot of programs get into is like kind of like a cursory depth, whereas I'm looking for like an inch wide and a mile deep. I want people to be different when they go through these things.

Well, and so I'm just assuming that part of that structure involves like feedback. Like there's got to be assessment or work other than just clicking and watching a video. Yeah?

Or no?

Yeah.

No, I come from the field of education where the teacher— or the student will work harder than the teacher because nothing happens from just telling somebody to do something. I mean, in fact, like every parent listening is nodding right now. You know, if you've ever had kids, you know, you can't just tell them and they get it. It's not like that, you know. So no, it's really about like, what are you having them do, you know? And to your point, the assessment component, I have them self-evaluate, um, unless there's a component where the, the course creator wants to be involved. There's a lot of research that supports self-evaluation, um, to make sure that they've actually achieved mastery. And then if you phrase it in the right way You can help them pinpoint to where they kind of fell off if they haven't reached what they should reach as a result of that. And also, like, how are you phrasing questions so that they go deeper with the material than like, okay, what, who is the 16th president of the United States, right? Like, you don't want like the surface level right there answers because right there doesn't matter anymore. It didn't really then. Like, I mean, I don't know how many people are listening, Christian. I don't know. You look like we're in the same generation here. Did you ever watch Jeopardy?

We have one in Moscow. Jeopardy is still on. It is still on.

I know, I know. But, like, when I was a kid, I could, oh, Rolodex Jeopardy, like, you know. Well, once I started talking, I knew it was because it's trivia. We don't need that since the internet. We don't need to know that. And so, like, our kids don't know those things the same way that they used to. Nobody needs to. What they need to do is be able to think differently about it. What they need to do is be able to actually apply it. And so that's like a component altogether. But one thing I will say specifically is that, and when we brought up assessments, I always cringe a little bit because sometimes people put— a lot of people will put multiple choice questions inside of a test. Multiple choice is the worst possible test you could give them. Um, I mean, think about it. Do you like multiple choice questions?

Well, no, I, I agree with you fundamentally because I can tell you you, uh, without being an expert on it, that I, I know I can game multiple choice questions even if I don't understand the, the, the, the, uh, information I'm being tested on. Like, I can, I can score at least average. I think I— this is hubris— I think if you gave me 30 days to study terms, I could maybe pass the medical board. And that's not to say anything about the knowledge of doctors. What I'm saying is, is if you structure a test like that, you can game the system if you know how to defeat a multiple choice, if you want to look at it as defeating it.

But like, yeah, but you're looking at, I mean, you're looking at specifically a test that was created by people that are test takers, and there's research involved too, right? Like they do norm reference tests, so they they're comparing other people's answers to try to get the test to be more reliable and more valid in order to really structure it. And there's still people like you and me who could go in with the pencil and go, yeah, okay, we're done here, you know, like, and, and just ace it without even thinking about it, right? And so that is part of it, like, the main argument. But then the other argument is here too. Most people that make online courses aren't test question creators, so you end up with questions that don't matter. I mean, how many times have you looked at one and go, like, why are you even asking this?

Right, because there's clearly one right answer and the rest are clearly false, right?

Right. Or, you know, just, yeah, they're all right, their answers, or there are things that, like, don't make sense. It— they're— to me, multiple choice is an insult to my intelligence, but to a lot of people, it's just a giant waste of time. So for every course creator out there, I beg of you, do not put it in the self-selected course that adults are taking.

Yes. Um, I, I, I feel like I monopolized the time asking about the industry. Is there, is there any knowledge you want to drop on the business of being a creative entrepreneur that, um, that, that we need to get out there?

I think that the main thing that's been helpful for me, and this may be helpful for others and so I'll share it, but it you know, take it with whatever grain of salt and find what works for you. I'm an entrepreneur that's dealing with ADHD, right? And so, I have to be incredibly particular about how I spend my time so that I don't just squirrel. And it's— I'm very like stick to my guns about that. But, you know, I think that the main things that have been very helpful for me are, you know, having KPIs. So, having key performance indicators like like how many stages am I on, what, how many leads have I gotten, what dollars have I created for each quarter, and then having specific, you know, OKRs, so steps that I'm going to take specifically that I can control related to each of those KPIs per quarter. So for me, it might be like, okay, well, if I want to be on this many stages, how many did I reach out to? If I want this many new leads, well, what am I doing for lead generation? It requires me to think about it and then put it into like, you know, quarterly tasks. And then my daily tasks, when I set them up, are related to that first. So if I need to be on this many stages and I, you know, I need to reach out to this many, well, where, what number am I at now? Okay, do 5 more today, right? And so breaking it down to make it really simple, but make every, every day like an action forward movement. Something because I'm a creative and I live with a creative. So, my background is in theater. My husband's background is photography, multimedia design, music production. He's about to start 2 television shows. He's everywhere, everywhere, all the time. And, it's like we have to have meetings about it and really get specific about the tasks because you could have something happen and then nothing happens for 2 months because another something came up that was also amazing. And I think that's part of that creative flow. It's like you want to be open to whatever gifts you've been given and you want to be open to those creative moments, but then also allowing time for and putting things specifically on calendars and in prioritization. So my to-do list is prioritized. It's not everything gets done per se. It's like, okay, I have this whole to-do list. Now what are the 3 most important things that I get done today? And then everything else, if I can, I'm going to. But, having those kind of structures in place, I got checklists for everything. Having those kinds of structures in place really keeps me kind of grounded in a way that we have forward momentum continuously.

I think that's brilliant. We've talked about this with multiple guests on this show that creatives tend to not like process. But the reality is, is that the process, the processes give the space for the creativity to show up. If you don't have the process, you're eventually not going to have any bandwidth to have any creativity.

Absolutely. Absolutely. The, um, oh gosh, what is it? The War of Art. Have you read that? Steven Pressfield?

Multiple times.

Oh, it's so good because it's just like like, "Do the work." But, it's like, okay, but it's a reminder. So, for anyone that's listening that hasn't read this book, he's, you know, for an hour and a half, he's telling you how to write a book or how to just sit down and you do the work. But, it's like that constant reminder of like, "Hey, if you're going to fill those pages, you need to allot for the time to fill those pages and then stick yourself to doing it." You know, kind of to your point.

Yeah, absolutely. So, how do people find out more about Up Of Course.

Of Course. Of Course is on the internet. It's of-course.us. And yeah, they can find me, Dr. Carrie Rose, at LinkedIn. That is my favorite channel to communicate on. I just feel like people are like really positive, or at least that's been my experience so far. So I don't know if all of you—

You haven't experienced the dark side of LinkedIn.

I haven't. I'm on the side of, oh yes, that's a great idea, I second that, Yes. And what I'd also love to see, that's where I'm at. I'm in shiny happy people LinkedIn.

That's a great song too. Isn't it? Yes. I'm sorry, our time is up. Listeners, if you— well, I'll have the links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like like what you've heard, there's something wrong with you. Uh, but go ahead and shoot us a message anyway and tell us what you'd like to hear, and we'll get rid of Dr. Rose. Until then, ta-ta for now.