Navigating the Digital Marketing Landscape with Enleaf | Adam Chronister

Hey creative, are you ready to discuss profits, the money, the ways to make it happen? The Profitable Creative Podcast is for you, the creative, how you define it. Videographers, photographers, entrepreneurs, marketing agencies, you get it. CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs, and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit. Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you'll learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. A special shout out to our one listener in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania. I wonder if that's where Phoenix, Arizona got their name. In any case, joining me today, Adam Chronister of InLeaf. Adam, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, glad to be here.

I'm sorry, I'm giggling at myself. So what is Inleaf? Not to be confused with Einleaf or on leaf, right?

So Inleaf is a search marketing company based in the Pacific Northwest. So for over, well over a decade now, we've been helping businesses with their web design presence or online presence or search marketing. Really helping businesses get that extra push and visibility in the online sphere, right? So that's kind of who we are and what we do.

Do you have a target client in mind, a specific demographic, industry, anything like that?

We do have verticals that we specialize in. We do a fair amount in the travel hospitality and then often what I call, like, real estate adjacent companies. But honestly, we've helped, you know, companies across verticals, you know, from large SaaS and e-commerce businesses down to your, you know, single operator entrepreneurial business. So really, we do just about everything. But there are some verticals, as mentioned, that, you know, we've kind of carved out a name for ourselves. So that's always an honor. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. It's always exciting when you can help somebody. I have a client after the show I'll connect you with that is a videographer in that space, in the hospitality space. So you guys should connect. So how long has Eindleaf been in business?

Since 2009. Yeah, that's kind of officially when the business started. Yeah. You don't look that old.

Did you start when you were 12?

No, no. Yeah, I'm older than I sometimes am confused with. So, yeah, heading on 44. But no, I started it really right out of college as honestly a side hustle. Honestly, the business only kind of went into its full, I guess, you know, limelight probably around 2020. That's when I took the business full time. Up until that point, it was really kind of a side hustle. Although I, you know, I tell people for the last 3 years that I was working in corporate doing the same kind of thing, you know, digital marketing. I was director of digital marketer for a few companies prior to that. I was running the agency on the side and, you know, fairly successfully for, I guess, a side hustle. But around 2020, it was basically just the time to take it full time, right? It was— I I kept telling my wife, hey, I think I'm doing the 80/20 backwards because the thing I'm spending 20% of my time on is making me 80% of my money. And so, we got a game plan together and yeah, I haven't looked back since.

Okay. So, two questions, follow-up questions. First is, what was the impetus to go away from corporate? And, and two, how did that corporate experience impact how you do things in your business?

Yeah. So, so the tipping point for me was I worked for a company, again, in the travel hospitality space. So that's kind of led into why we specialize in the agency. So I was the director of digital marketing for a company that had a national, almost international footprint in vacation rentals. And then along came COVID and really knocked this business on its feet, right? And this is a business that was, you know, they had a Series C round of funding up to $100 million, investors from companies that you and I both recognize. And unfortunately, they were in the prime position to be, you know, kind of disrupted with COVID as with many businesses in the space, but their primary market was metropolitan locations, you know, that were travel destinations. And of course, there's no worse place to be during COVID It wasn't like these were cabins in the woods, beach houses. These were, you know, San Francisco, Seattle, these kind of locations, right? So it was kind of the perfect storm. You know, it was, it was one of those jobs. I called it like kind of the golden handcuff job. It was a beer on Friday job, a good place to work, honestly. And I think that's what honestly extended my career in corporate as long as I did, just because it was, it was kind of hard to leave. But at the same time, I never felt really satisfied there, not because it wasn't a good place to work. It just, you know, I had that entrepreneurial itch. And that was, that was really just kind of the push I needed to like take things 100% full-time instead of just treating my company as a, as a lucrative side hustle.

Yeah, I think that entrepreneurial itch, I sometimes refer to it as a psychosis, uh, is, I can also agree with that.

Yeah.

Is, is not something that can be, uh, scratched, uh, working for someone else. Not because, not because you. Think that you've got something. To me, it's about being able to own the outcome. And, you know, eventually working for someone else, someone's going to say, you know what, we like your idea, Adam, but we're not going to do it. And, you know, at the end of the day, entrepreneurs solve problems, right? And when you run up against one of those problems that you're like, no, I know I can fix this, like, I can do this, and they say no, you know, that's killed or launched, let's say launched a lot of entrepreneurs. Yeah. So anything about your processes or how you do things in Leaf come from origin in your, your working for someone else?

Yeah, honestly, a lot of them. Like I would say the one, the one asset I, or not asset, but opportunity I had with many of the jobs that I worked for, not all of them, but for most of my career, I guess in the corporate world, and I, I should use the word corporate loosely because most of the companies that I worked for, um, I would say about 80% prior to going on my own were were essentially startups, right? And so I learned a lot through not only that last, that last job, but one of my first jobs out of college was as a project manager for a software development company. And that's actually where I got my background. So I have a degree in computer science, but never really kind of, you know, honed into wanting to look at code all day. So I I got about 3/4 of the way through my degree and realized like, I don't know if I'm built to stare at code, but I do enjoy everything around, you know, web development and design. And then that later led to digital marketing. But yeah, from my very first job out of college, I was managing as a project manager, I don't know, roughly 20+ clients. And it was one of those environments where it's kind of like they just throw you in the water and they're like, have fun, figure it out, right? And that was really the thing that sparked my interest and kind of my, I guess, my thought process in, hey, this is something I could probably do, you know, on my own later on. Right. And so that as well as other, you know, positions through the years and, you know, various entrepreneurial type businesses had helped quite a bit. Right. It was actually that first job too, where I really started to kind of pivot into marketing. This business, again, being a startup, they were doing a lot of mobile application development, but they had really no great marketing presence, at least early on. And so around the time, this is when Twitter was relatively new and you know, I started dabbling around with it and I basically said, hey, I notice we're not doing much in the realm of marketing. I'd love to like maybe create a marketing campaign or something like that. And if you've ever worked at a lean startup and you raise your hand, usually it's like, yeah, go have fun, right? Yeah.

We're not giving you any resources, but make it happen.

No, there's like, go figure it out. Yeah. And that's, you know, so that's kind of what got me started in that entrepreneurial mindset was just being around it.

Right. Yeah. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. I love what you said about like, so you learned code, um, but you realize that's not what you wanted to do, and then you, you came upon marketing. And, and I think I'm going to make a statement, see if you agree with it, that, um, the, the best entrepreneurs understand that the skills that they have in your case, that could be, you know, JavaScript, it could be SEO, it could be HTML, whatever. That's not the, uh, that's not the essence of what you as an entrepreneur are. Your, your, your essence is solving problems, specifically marketing problems, right? You have some, some skills around that, but that's not what defines what you do, right?

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I mean, that's what I kind of realized early on, you know, because I was working and I was in charge of, uh, software developers with that first gig out of college. And, um, the other thing that thing, you know, that experience taught me was that, you know, I was, you know, um, uh, I basically just got my AA degree and you know, computer science. So it wasn't like a huge fancy, you know, 4-year degree or anything like that. I went to a local community college, um, but I was thrown into a scenario where I was the conduit between developers and engineers, you know, software engineers who arguably were way smarter than I was, right? Um, but ironically, you know, without you know, it being fully transparent, I kind of got the sense like, hey, I'm actually making more than a lot of these software developers, right? Um, and then I started, you know, that had me thinking about like, what are other scenarios like this? I love the, um, the Apple example, right? You had the two Steve— the two, um, the two Steves, like Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, right? And both of them very intelligent, but arguably Steve Wozniak, you know, was much more of an engineer than Steve Jobs. Sure. But if it was, if you understand that whole story, Steve Wozniak wanted to basically give away the Apple II.

And, uh, so I wish he had. I paid a lot for mine, right? Or my dad did. I didn't pay for it.

Yeah. And, and so Steve Jobs, you know, had the business intelligence, right? And it's like, you can't, you can't just give this away. Like, there's a, there's a commodity here, right? And, you know, arguably Steve Jobs eventually became kind of the star of Apple and Steve Wozniak kind of fell in the background. Um, and, you know, it was through my own experience and kind of adapting that to other examples like that out there that I realized like, um, there are different types of intelligence, right? There's emotional intelligence. There's business savvy intelligence. There's obviously like, you know, the, the very intelligent engineers or data scientists. Um, and, you know, the, the things you learn in school don't always apply in the boxes that we put them, at least in, in our expectations of, hey, I got straight A's through college and I got a doctorate in this or that. Um, you know, and, and now it's like you look at most of the world's, like, leading entrepreneurs, a lot of them are college dropouts, not because they're not intelligent, but they just they realized there was a different path. And having been somebody who, at least in high school, struggled quite a bit academically, and, you know, and I, I had to hustle really hard in college too. It was no easy feat for me. Um, that was, that was really helpful in my journey realizing like, oh wow, I, I don't have to be the top of the class in everything I do because there are different, um, aspects of personality and characteristic that can still help you get ahead. In fact, I think in a lot of cases, I think you look at a lot of entrepreneurs and they are the people that, you know, they struggled, you know, with attention in school. And I was one of those, right?

Right. So, no, I mean, I think that axiom is true in some part that like C students are the ones that become entrepreneurs. You know, the A students and the B students become the employees. Right. It's not entirely always true, but, you know, it speaks to what you're saying. And then you used the two Steves, I also think of Walt and Roy Disney and how they were a fantastic partnership because they were so different in how they approach things. Right. Yeah. And I find that, you know, finding that those competencies, those intelligences in one person, um, is rare. Uh, it, it, it does happen, but I think we lean one way or the other. And to just, you know, dumb it down way too much, it's, it's either you're the, you're the creative mind or you're the analytical mind. And, um, when, when you can get those two together, either in a partnership or an individual, then you really have rocket fuel, right? Because it takes both in business.

It—

yeah, you have to have both.

Yeah. And you can't have— you can't have a business of only entrepreneurs, right? That just is not going to work, right? Somebody has to be kind of leading the ship. So like every business has components and personalities that are, are integral to that business, right? Um, and so I think it is good, you know, and there's— there are a lot of people I know that they, you know, they would hate being an entrepreneur or a business owner. They would just absolutely despise it, right? I think that's probably the majority, honestly. Otherwise, I think there would be a lot more entrepreneurs. And then there's the twisted, sick people like probably you and I who— Or mentally ill.

I've already stipulated that. It's a psychosis.

Right.

No, no, you're right. You can be an entrepreneurial employee. You know, you can solve problems. Absolutely. I think the distinction between an entrepreneurial employee and an entrepreneur is an entrepreneur, I think, generally has a higher risk tolerance. Sure. In the sense that they, they will assume the risk and bet on themselves. Right. Like that's key. Yeah, I think that's key. And, you know, in some cases they're delusional. Like, you know, and I mean that literally. I don't mean that tongue in cheek. It's like the thing that makes you able to see the possible, the visionary, right? Like it doesn't, the world doesn't have to be this way. It could be this way. Right. That ability to hold that vision means that you, um, have to ignore reality sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. They've even done personality tests and like, um, they're, you know, most people in leadership, you know, politicians, entrepreneurs, even a lot of times people in, uh, leadership of police or military establishments, um, often have a certain level of narcissism. Right? You know, and obviously narcissism is kind of a dirty word in our culture, and, and there is an extent where it becomes dangerous and, uh, not a good thing. But call it narcissism or confidence, you know, we— I, I'm not, you know, qualified to know where that line leads, but you do have to have a certain qualification of confidence to think like, hey, I can do things that are hard or difficult You know, you look at the Elon Musks of the world and it's like, you know, he's launching rocket ships and, you know, disrupting industries like the vehicle industry. You have to have a certain level of narcissism, confidence, craziness, like chutzpah, whatever you want to label that to think I'm going to do something that no one's ever done. Right. And here, you know, like I'm no, I'm no Elon Musk, but at the same time, like The, the statistics in business success, you know, I forget the specifics, but it's usually like, you know, the cards are usually stacked against you. So you have to have a certain level of confidence, narcissism, Christian Brim. You know, fill, fill the label with whatever you want, but you have to have a certain level of that to think that you're going to be able to succeed, right? And take that step.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And I find in my own journey that at some point that characteristic that you have that makes you successful, allows you to be successful, becomes a liability. And in the sense that, right, like in my case, it was I was so focused on the vision, I ignored reality. Like, okay, this is what you want, but this is what's actually happening. Right? Yeah. And you can only ignore reality for a certain period of time before it has its way with you, right? Okay, I'm going to pivot. And ask a question, and then I have another pivot, future pivot. So I'm giving you a fair warning. What, you know, in this transition to doing it full-time, 5 years on, what was the biggest challenge that you experienced going from side hustle to full-time?

Honestly, I think the biggest challenge that I had to overcome was with the transition itself, um, there was a period where, um, you know, I was kind of becoming dissatisfied with working a day job. I had an opportunity, um, you know, to maybe take my, uh, side hustle full-time. And, you know, and then, and then basically I got the okay, you know, my spouse was like, okay, let's save up a little money and let's take the, take the leap, you know. Um, and, and that was the first time where I had to like, I had to be like, oh wow, I now, now I have to be, um, responsible for, for the idea of this, right? For a lot of this time, I'm like, you know, I kind of put that on other people, like, oh, you know, my wife likes me to have a secure job and, you know, and I don't want her to feel, uh, you know, anxious about taking the risk, but when she, When she basically gave me her blessing to do it, then I'm like, oh, now I have to, I don't have any excuse.

Right.

Yeah. So that was the first time I had to kind of wrestle with that idea of, um, okay, now, now I have to deal with my own fears and insecurities about this not working. And then also there was the real, like, there was the real fear that, um, hey, I feel unsatisfied in my day job, uh, as great as a business as it was, right? This is one of those, uh, businesses where it's, you know, beer on Friday kind of job. Everybody's like, oh, this is the best job I've ever had. And I could see how people could, could think that, right? I, you know, cognitively, I'm like, makes sense. But again, I still didn't— I just didn't feel like I, I was where I needed to be, right? And so the other, uh, thing I had to overcome was a fear of what if I get to the other side, I start my own business, and I'm still not satisfied, then the problem's me, right? Now, knock on wood, you know, once I really started going, I really felt like, okay, this is, this is, this is where I needed to be all this time. And there are rough days. There are days where I, you know, look back and like, huh, 9 to 5 sounds really nice right now, you know, clock in, clock out kind of thing. But, but deep down, I know like you know, I don't think I could ever go back to working for somebody else. Right. I just, all the sweat equity, the long hours, the sacrifices, like all of it. Um, it, you know, it's, it's worth it just with the satisfaction of knowing. And, and really it's, I feel like it's kind of just in my DNA as, as maybe strange as that may sound to some, right?

No, it makes perfect sense. I'm, I'm, I've been unemployable for nigh 30 years. And, and I mean that. In the sense that I could, I contribute value to an organization as an employee? Absolutely. Would I make a good employee? Absolutely not. Like, I would not. And that's, that's me. That's not them. Right. Exactly. You know, part of the, part of the circumstances that led me to start a business was I was essentially a salesperson and I was a banker, but essentially a salesperson. And I had brought this idea to the CFO of like, here's this promotion I want to run and here's where they've done it before in another entity. And this is the results. And I'm like, clearly this is the path that we should take. And the CFO looked and he said, no, we're not doing it. And it was at that point that— because in that instance, they were limiting my income potential, right? Like, okay, so— and that was the beginning of the end as far as my dissatisfaction with working for others. Now, are there entrepreneurs that could, maybe should, um, work less and make more money working for somebody else? Absolutely. I see it all the time, right? Like, you know, they, they, they essentially create themselves a job and, um, they end up with working harder for the same amount or less amount of money. And, and so they, they don't have the financial freedom, and then they don't have the, the time freedom either, right? Right. Like, yeah.

Um, and that's a good point. Like, for me, like, it was all about freedom. Um, obviously the ability to not be capped in your income is a huge thing, right? Which, uh, often if done, done right, can, can be unlocked through entrepreneurship. But yes, I was, I was never, um, I guess a great employee. Now, you know, you talk to probably my bosses and they would disagree because a lot of times I made them a lot of money and did implement things that worked for them, right? But I was always pushing the envelope. I was the first one in 3 different companies. I was the first one always to be like, hey, I want to work remote, you know? And this is pre-COVID, right? So like the idea of working, you know, from Latin America for 3, 4 weeks remote that nobody else did that, and nobody else had the hoots, but even ask or say, you know, this is kind of, you know, uh, non-negotiable for me, right? Right. Um, you know, and so in that regard, I was always pushing the envelope just because I, I, I wanted to live a life of freedom, right, where I didn't have to, like, you know, beg and plead or, you know, um, chalk up vacation days because Um, you know, and, and, and so for me, that's the big push. That's kind of the key lever of why I stepped out into it is I wanted to have the freedom and autonomy to work hard, but also play hard. And, you know, uh, allow me to work while I travel or, um, you know, simply take maybe a 3-day weekend one week because I'm feeling burnt out or I need a break, right? Without having to ask or beg somebody for that kind of permission, right?

Yeah. And I think that, you know, you mentioned unlocking your potential. I think the next step, which most entrepreneurs don't make, is realizing that you have the ability to make money off of others' efforts and getting beyond what you can do yourself. That's that's really the key to growing a business or scaling a business is you mentioned the 80/20 rule. I talk about the Pareto pencil all the time. And entrepreneurs are, especially when they're starting out, they're wearing all the hats. And my advice to them is the quicker you figure out what your 20% is, what the thing that you do that is most valuable, and get the other 80% off of your plate by eliminating, automating, or delegating, right? The quicker you're going to be successful. That's, that's to me the key to building a business as opposed to just creating a job for yourself.

Right. Yeah, 100%. You know, my, from the time we started to the time where we're at now, like, my role has, has changed, right? Where I'm not doing a lot of day-to-day. I don't really do a lot of our, our marketing outside of marketing the business itself, marketing a personal brand, um, doing, you know, podcasts like this, uh, doing talks, uh, and, and speeches and whatnot. Um, and so, so yeah, like, that's the other thing too, is like, if you're somebody that loves being in the trenches, like you may not be happy as an entrepreneur because a lot of times you have to be— I almost treat it like I'm almost like the orchestra conductor, right?

That's a good analogy. I like that.

And all of our different team members are doing their different instruments, right? Their different roles in the business to keep things productive and moving forward. Um, but I can't, I can't be playing the saxophone, uh, while I'm conducting the choir. It just doesn't work.

No, no, it wouldn't. And, and a lot of entrepreneurs get stuck in that because there's comfort in doing what you know. And when you start a business, there's all this shit you don't know. Yep. And, and so you gravitate to what you know and what's predictable. And so you can get stuck there, right? Yeah. Okay, now my second pivot, and this, this is, uh, just me. Um, okay, so talking about technology, you're a computer science guy.

Sure. Yep.

Um, what my experience has been with the, the new LLMs, and I refuse to call them AI, um, and the, the applications of those in technology. My experience has been that there's this gap, right? Okay. That between what the promoters promise and what the actual results are. Sure. And my, my thought is I have learned coding in the past a couple of different times, but I have recently started to learn Python. Okay. Because I— not because I want to code, not because I want to review code, but because I need to understand the parameters and the limitations of the technology that's put forth to me. So, The example would be, I most recently have attempted to create this custom GPT for our internal use. And I created it and it worked perfectly for me. And then I share it with my team and it doesn't work for them, right? And so you ask GPT, well, why is this not working? And it gives you a bunch of reasons. You try and fix those things. You know, you limit the model. 'uncheck this preference,' blah, blah, blah. And it still didn't work. And so, you know, I'm like, my thought is, if I want this application, I'm going to have to create it. Maybe not me personally, maybe I hire a developer, but I've wasted a lot of time and money and technology in the past doing it the wrong way. And part of that was not knowing enough, right? Like, and so I'm learning a skill not to use the skill, but to be able to either manage the existing technology or create a new technology with others. Am I crazy?

No, you're not crazy. I mean, you're again, you're trying to solve a problem. I would say, like, from the limited understanding of your question there, as far as like, what's, you know, if I'm parsing the question, it's like, what went wrong? Right? Right. And I think the biggest thing, and we've seen this in our business too, because I do the same thing, not as much software, although we've— I have created a couple of different software applications. And gotten all excited and then realized my team's like, nah, that's not working for us, right? Right. Um, what I've learned in that similar scenario is that I either need to be building that with my team or creating a framework where they can build the software or the process, right? Because unless you're doing the day-to-day, unless it's solving your specific problem, like if you're building a tool to build to solve your team member's problem or a client's problem, but they're not involved in the creation of the process, like you're gonna hit friction, right? And it's the same thing in generalized software development, right? Like this is why, you know, people do user testing and users test it and say, well, this works, but this isn't really how we would like apply it. And that's honestly, that's just a lot of how technology works, right? I mean, take the at sign and hashtags in Twitter, right? Those came about because in the early days of Twitter, there was no way to like comment on someone else's, you know, tweet as they called it. And so the user base created the hashtags and the at signs to solve a problem. Well, now it's a huge component of the software. Where only because the users directed that, right? So I think that's key.

I agree with you 100%, um, because that's part of been, that's been part of my experience as well. Like building something that nobody really wants, like you think they should want it, uh, that, that, that always goes back to this axiom that, that I say, you got to sell people what they want, not what they need. Right, like I, I've, I've, I've made that mistake even as recently as this year. Like, you know, you, you can't create something as good as it may be and as beneficial as it may be if it's not something they want. You can't create it because they're not going to buy it. Yeah, yeah. Um, but you know, going back to the, the LLMs, I, I think, and, and they admit this, like they don't know how it works, which I, I get because that's what algorithms do. They work at a level that we can't. And so we can't really untangle it and say, this is exactly what we need to fix. Right? Right. Because we don't know how it works. And, you know, I think there's a lot of potential with the technology. But I think it has to— I think if you're going to use it in your business, at least for me, I've come to the conclusion that I've got to know more to be able to apply it. I can't, I can't. I mean, yeah, you can use LLMs are great for writing copy and for, but like, I don't know how these, you know, they talk about LLMs destroying all these developer jobs. And I'm like, I don't understand how, because like, I'm like, I, you generate code in an LLM and you drop it in and it doesn't work. So like, I mean, like how, how does that eliminate a job?

Yeah, I think, and I think there's, and there's been a recent, I think it was a white paper or study that came out that really kind of started talking about like the reality of kind of some of the thought process around LLMs and AI You know, there's basically two kind of schools of thought. One that is going to be like dystopian, right? It's going to kill all the jobs. And then there's also this utopian idea that, hey, it's going to replace the need for work and we're all going to get, you know, UBI and life's going to be perfect. Well, this white paper or case study basically detailed how like a lot of that stuff, you know, seems to be a little bit more inflated than what we would have thought.

A little bit.

Yeah. Well, and there's a lot of startups now that, um, that are losing a lot of money because they, they put too much trust in large language models, which again, they, they can't understand.

I mean, you know, like, so like, how do you, how do you develop something with it when you can't, you don't know? I mean, yeah.

And what I found, like, you know, there's this big push for, um, for vibe coding, uh, as it's often called, like it seems like you can get a product to about 80, 90%, but it's, it's that last 10 to 20% where things fall apart. And so I could imagine a scenario where I don't, I don't think jobs are going to be as disrupted, um, at least employment as a whole is going to be as disrupted as like some of the dystopian, you know, thought leaders think, but every technological shift, you know, maintains an environment where the roles shift, right?

Yeah.

So in our business, for instance, you know, we started referring to our writers as prompt engineers and editors. We still have people that, that need to create prompts or systems to create content. They still have to optimize that content for, you know, search engines and now large language models. They still have to edit that to make sure that, you know, there's not too much hallucinations or that, you know, the content's accurate. And so it's not that we've replaced our writers, it's just that their roles have shifted, right? Or the roles that occupy that seat have shifted. And it's the same thing, I think, in software development and all these other environments where There may be people that have to switch roles, you know, that was a pure coder that now has to be more of a QA, code QA analyst, right? But that's the case with every technological shift, you know. Absolutely. There are new problems that need to be solved. I mean, the whole business that I primarily operate in, in digital marketing, didn't exist, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And there's a good chance that the jobs that my kids will be doing, you know, in 20, 30 years from now don't exist yet now. Right. And that's just, that's how technological change works.

Yeah. I mean, one of the things I did, this is 10 years ago before the introduction of LLMs is I did a deep dive, read a bunch of books on AI. And I also read a book about the Industrial Revolution. Because to me, there was a parallel between like what did the Industrial Revolution in the Western world, I mean, some places of the world, the Industrial Revolution is still happening. But like, you know, what changed and what didn't change, right? And yeah, it might have eliminated some jobs because it made those people more efficient, but it created other jobs. To what you're saying. So like, right, you know, the tractor replacing the horse, it might allow the farmer to do more, right? So there, there are fewer farmers, right? But now you have to have people that can work on and fix and sell and everything else, the tractors.

So, you know, when we see the same thing too, like, um, you know, it's funny because I think there's going to be a reemergence of nuclear. And it's like, well, what is this? How is this relevant to the conversation? But it's— there's an excess need of energy to power all these large language models and the silicon chips, right? And so that's stirred the Silicon Valley types to really think about, you know, energy sources that used to be kind of off limits to that same group, right? Correct. And so now it's like, well, if we start firing up these nuclear power plants, like, well, now we need people to start working there, right? So we have to create educational programs to get people familiar with running a nuclear power plant or whatever other disciplines are part of that. And so that's a— I mean, that's a technical— even though that's kind of a technology that's coming back around again, like, you know, the— it's one of those things where we see the puck kind of moving into different spheres that are going to create new jobs and new opportunities. Opportunities that, you know, were not as prevalent or relevant, you know, right, 10, 20 years ago.

No, I agree. I was reading an article this weekend about some designer that was more busy than ever because people— she was basically fixing the design elements that LLMs had created, right? And so like now she's got more work than she knows what to do because everybody's bringing all this stuff that they thought was going to be free and worked, and it's like, well, no, that doesn't work, right? Yeah. I would like to tell the listeners how to find out more about Endleaf, aka Eindief, uh, and Adam. So how do we find out more?

Um, you know, we're pretty prevalent online. I mean, honestly, a quick Google search, you're going to find us. But I think the best place is right right on our website. So enleaf.com. It's kind of a funny word. So I'll spell it. It's E-N-L-E-A-F.com. You know, on that site, we have not only examples of our work, a little bit more of an introduction to what we do, but even some free marketing tools that, you know, the community is welcome to take advantage of.

So I love that. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you didn't like what you heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you like, and we'll replace Adam. Until then, ta-ta for now.