Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in the Creative Industry | Jordan Kirkham

Hey creative, are you ready to discuss profits? The money, the ways to make it happen? The Profitable Creative Podcast is for you, the creative, how you define it. Videographers, photographers, entrepreneurs, marketing agencies, you get it. CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs, and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Margate, Florida. Florida man, thank you for listening this morning. Joining me today, Jordan Kirkham with Story Is Greater Studios in sunny San Diego. Good morning, Jordan.

Good morning.

So why don't you tell the audience who Jordan is, what, uh, Story Is Greater Studios is all about?

Yeah, Christian, thanks for having me on the podcast. Um, yeah, so, uh, sunny San Diego. I'm a father of 3 beautiful girls, and God bless you. My wife and I, we live out here in a, in a rural town outside of Central San Diego called Ramona, and, uh, cute little country town, lot of wineries, um, cattle country. Nice. Um, and pretty much everyone has chickens. Um, but my work in, uh, one of the main studios I work out of is in town in Mission Valley. And I started my career in the creative industries about 20 years ago, um, with, uh, mostly going into photography I thought I wanted to be a National Geographic photographer as a little kid. That was my big thing I wanted to do. And, out of college, I had a professor tell me that by the time I finished my photojournalism career and trying to get into the National Geographic scene that everything was going to change so much that I was going to have to relearn everything again. And, he was very true.

Was he prescient or— Yeah, that's weird.

And so, I actually never finished college. I ended up bouncing around and I eventually just took the college of YouTube and learned everything I needed to know when I needed to know it. And yeah, started my business. I was working for a church and realized I couldn't support a family with 30 hours a week on a church budget. So I had a couple friends getting married. And they said, hey, can you film my wedding? I said, sure. Yes. And that turned into about 5 years worth of jumping into the wedding film industry and eventually event, event filming. But my family was tired of me being gone on the weekends, so I jumped into the corporate scene and have been there ever since, pretty much for the last 10 years, and have been mostly doing local commercials for a lot of local businesses here in San Diego.

So when you say event, like, I would assume that San Diego's got a lot of, uh, convention business.

Do you—

yes, yeah, do you film those?

We do, yeah. We do a lot of event, uh, corporate events and convention events. Um, obviously we have the San Diego Convention here, if everyone's— anyone's ever been here for Comic-Con. Um, so we have that every year, but also hundreds of other, uh, major major events here because of our sunny weather. Obviously, people want this to be a fun destination for their corporate events. So, um, yeah, we definitely book a lot of those and meet a lot of people from all around the world.

San Diego, uh, you know, I, I've said this, there's only two places I've visited that, uh, I would live if I didn't live in Oklahoma. Lots of lovely places to visit, but the only place that I would choose to live besides the rural English countryside is San Diego. And then I had a friend of mine that was a lifelong San Diego resident, lived on Coronado Island, and I'm like, and he moved to Tennessee and I'm like, what? Like, I thought that like Coronado was like the pinnacle of living. Like, and it, it is.

Yes.

Yeah, but he packed up his family and during COVID moved to Nashville. So whatever, a different— and then I have another friend that lives in San Diego that moved there from New Hampshire. And he told me he moved to San Diego because he wanted to focus on his business. And I'm like, okay. And I said, that seems like that's a lot of distraction, you know. I'd be at the beach every day. And he said, oh no, no, no, no, I'm from New Hampshire. I love the mountains. And so I moved to San Diego. I'm like, oh yeah.

So yeah, different strokes, different strokes. Thankfully we do have the best of both worlds. And if you want to dip your toes in the sand and build a sandcastle, and then obviously in wintertime, then drive up into the mountains and build a snowman, you can do that. So, and I've done it before, it's a lot of fun.

So, uh, what would you say— I mean, you've been in this long enough— what, what has been the biggest challenge over those 10 years, uh, from a business standpoint?

My biggest challenge has definitely been, uh, my own self, and I would say imposter syndrome, self-esteem. And the growth in the direction of really, really committing to my business in the right ways. I bounced around in probably, you know, the first maybe 5, 6 years, not only in the wedding industry, but a lot of other different avenues of the of the creative world within, you know, film production. So I would, you know, feel like I was niching down into a different, uh, you know, style of editing or working with different clients or, you know, trying this or trying that. And so doing a lot of different things as well as, you know, freelancing myself out to other, you know, companies and working for others. And even at one time picking up a a part-time gig because I thought I just needed a regular 9-to-5 with a, a local realtor company, and quickly realized that going back to the regular 9-to-5 was not something I could do. In fact, that was the very first time in my life that I experienced my very first real panic attack. I was working, being put back into the box, being, being put back in the box. I was literally in a high-rise in town and had my own little office and unfortunately didn't share it with anyone. And I am a people person, 100%. And there were days and weeks where I wouldn't see anybody and I was just working on edits or, you know, running out and filming some stuff, but coming back. And I didn't know it was a panic attack at first. It actually took a couple of weeks to realize what they were because I just thought, you know, it's like, okay, well, I just, you know, feeling tired, feeling A little bit overwhelmed. I think I just need to, you know, walk outside for a little bit, get some fresh air, come back in. But a couple months went by and I realized, oh no, these were panic attacks. And my inability to actually see the blue sky and people was a major detriment to my health. And so, you know, I quickly realized, hey, you know, chatted with the company, let them know that this wasn't the right fit. And they didn't have the right system set up in place anyways to keep my business or my position long term. So they realized, oh yeah, I don't think this is actually working out for us either. So it ended up being a mutual split. But yeah, I realized a couple things in that season was that one, I have to be working with people and seeing people. So my favorite daily routine is actually to start mornings like this with a podcast or with a meeting, or with a connection, and then getting into my day. And so that's, uh, yeah, I think, um, and then when it comes to self-esteem and imposter syndrome, it's reared its ugly head over the years in times when I wanted to expand, or I wanted to go after a big client, or I wanted to, you know, really niche down in the exact place I want to be. And just stepping out and really honoring the time I've spent in the creative industries and saying, hey, Jordan, you've got this. You know what to do. You know the right people. You know how to get this done. And to not be worried about that and step forward out of, you know, not out of fear, but out of, you know, excitement of being able to pretty much take on almost any type of creative project.

Do you feel like you still struggle with that issue of self-esteem or imposter syndrome?

I do. Yeah. If I'm 100% honest, it definitely comes around. So, but I can recognize it much sooner.

I was hoping that would be your answer because I think, I think that I have been reading recently a lot and, well, I read a lot anyway, but specifically on this topic of ego, self-esteem, shame, happiness, like a lot of different sources. And what I'm kind of formulating in my mind is this idea that one, we all have this inherent feeling, like it's a universal human condition of being insufficient, inadequate, incomplete, you know, whether that's on a spiritual level, psychological level, like it's part of who we are. And I think that when we have that fear, that manifests itself, you know, some people call it imposter syndrome. But, you know, it's really this fear of we're unworthy, that what we're trying to do, someone's going to find out that we're not genuine or real, is actually a positive thing, I think, because what that tells me when I start to get that feeling is that I'm pushing myself beyond what I'm comfortable with. And so I think that fear reaction is actually a good thing. You can't get rid of it because it's part of the self-defense mechanism in our brain. Like, you know, when you're going into uncharted territory, your brain wants to keep you safe. So it's telling you, let's not do that. Let's sit on the couch instead, because that's— or let's do video edits because I know how to do that. Like, you know, it tries to push you down to something predictable. So I would say that, you know, if you're not feeling imposter syndrome or fear or even just a little anxiety about what you're doing in your business, then you're probably just playing it safe. What do you think of that?

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. And I mean, if most people are honest, I mean, we think about people that are always very confident, you know, that, you know, they just, they speak, they act with their business, or, you know, with friends or family or brand new people they meet. And, you know, you watch them from afar, you watch them up close, and they just seem like, oh man, they've got it all together. They know what they're doing. They're, you know, they're just, you know, straight from here to the moon on their trajectory in life. You know, they, everything just seems to be aligning and perfect. But when you sit them down in an interview, or if you're good friends with them, you know, they'll, they'll, they will always at some point share their fears, share their inadequacies, share. And, you know, so, you know, we always have this, you know, we always compare ourselves to what we see out there and assume that, oh my gosh, okay, you know, maybe I'm not being confident enough or this or that or the other thing. But the truth is we're all human and we all do it to some level.

Yeah. And I don't think it's— I don't think that self-confidence and confidence and having fear are mutually exclusive. Like, you know, I think the fear of going into something unknown, whatever that is, maybe it's, you know, for For me, and this sounds strange, but, you know, I guess I wouldn't say that it rises to the level of fear, but like, I started woodworking again after a 10-year hiatus, and I'm not a woodworker. I'm not a detail person. It's something that I'm not good at. And I'm actually doing it to get comfortable being uncomfortable. So when I think about going out and doing woodworking, uh, I'm sitting there and, and I'll, I'll meet this resistance. It's like, well, you know, you got to do this next, and you don't really know how to do that, and do you really want to do that? And so it's not necessarily fear, but, but there is this resistance to doing it. Um, but it doesn't go away, right? And so I don't have any confidence in woodworking. Like, you know, I don't have, I don't have vast experience. I don't You know, I'm not a master at it, so I can't come to it with confidence. But, but what I can do is come to it with this attitude of it's okay that you're not good at it, right? Because you've not done it and you're learning. But when we move into the realm of where we do have experience and we do know that we're— what we're doing, I think it's possible to still be confident in your skills, but you're pushing yourself into a new situation where you still have fear. So we're going to do our first live event. We're going to do a 2-day workshop in October of this year here in Oklahoma City. We're bringing in people from all over the country. For creative entrepreneurs to work on their business. And I'm going to tell you, it's very uncomfortable. I mean, you know, we've never done this, you know, signing the contract with the hotel and making a financial commitment that was uncomfortable. But I am confident in certain aspects of it. I'm confident in the content and then the speakers and what we're trying to achieve. Are we going to be successful? I have no idea. But that, that doesn't matter. That's the unpredictability that you have to get comfortable with. Like, you know, you— I don't know. So is there something where you stepped out and you weren't sure of the outcome, but you still had confidence that, like you said, I've got a lot of experience, I know what I'm doing, I know the right people? Do you have any similar experience?

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's definitely been plenty of productions that I have said yes to that I was completely outside of my personal wheelhouse. But I will say in that, in those experiences, especially when there's, you know, a sizable budget, and I know that I can hire friends, it's actually where I come most alive. I find personally, as being a producer, And one of my— actually, one of my biggest goals actually this year is to really step more into that producer role of just saying, hey, you know, I'm better in front of the camera or next to it than behind it. And I am better, you know, at a coffee shop with my computer versus at, you know, my studio editing, you know, behind my whole editing suite, and just finding the right people for a job. But there was a job a couple years ago that I'm still under NDA, but it was a big pharmaceutical company. And they needed to film a local doctor here in San Diego. She didn't want to travel. And so they needed to find a studio. And we were working with a creative agency out of New York. And they said, hey, this is the project we need. We need a, you know, big green screen, you know, green cyc studio, we need this and that, the other thing. And the project scope kept growing and growing and growing, which was great. Because that meant the budget was going to keep growing and growing. And every time they would come back with, you know, a new need, I said, okay, that's great. Yes, you know, it's going to require this, you know, type of professional, we're going to need to hire this and bring that, you know, this type of equipment in. But we totally got you, we can do it. Here's the next budget, you know, mark we need to meet. And they said, great, that's awesome. Sounds good. Send it to us. And it's just one of those projects that kept growing. And on production day, Actually, we were— our pre-production day, we were setting everything up and everything was, you know, coming together beautifully. Their director and producer and whole team were there. And I was like, okay, this is going to be really good. I'm excited, excited for this. And we were doing some test shoots and everything was good. So the next day we come in and the doctor comes in and we're getting her all set up with makeup and we're running a couple, you know, new test shots that they had just adjusted the night before, of course. And we had a particular camera setup that they wanted. It was really redundant, but, you know, it was at their request. And but we were running into an issue with a particular angle that they didn't really like as much. And so I remember I had this moment where they came up to me and we had this little powwow and they said, okay, well, you know, this isn't quite what we planned and thought we were actually going to be getting. Can we, you know, make some adjustments?. And so quickly, you know, it's like, well, I don't know actually how to solve this exact problem, but hey, my crew's here. We're all doing this. Pulled everyone in and I looked at everyone and said, okay, this is what we need to do. How do we solve this problem? Looked right at my DP, like I was a deer in the headlights of like, all right buddy, help, help me solve this problem here.

You can figure this out, right?

I know how to do this. And he's like, okay, well, in order to get this, we need to be able to mount the camera on the jib in this direction and do this. So then I look at my camera operator and said, okay, Michael, how do we get our— how do we make this happen and how quickly can we make it happen? He's like, oh, we can switch cameras out in about 25 minutes. I'm like, all right, we got 25 minutes, Michael, please switch out the cameras. We got to get this going. Great. Awesome. But it was that one moment in that situation, I'm like, I have no clue how to solve this issue, but I know everyone else does. And obviously, that's why I'm paying them. They're all here. And about maybe an hour later, I'm standing back. We hit action a couple times, we're getting some shots. And I see everybody just in sync. And it was probably the first time in my career that I said to myself, if I could do this every day, I'd show up as a producer every day. Because I felt so alive in that moment of like, I knew the right crew, I knew the right people. Was excited to bring everybody together. I mean, as a kid, I grew up, you know, being that kid that, you know, one of my buddies would call up and be like, hey, you want to play? You know, you want to come hang out? And I'd immediately call like 3 or 4 other friends, be like, hey, we're going over to so-and-so's house. So then a whole crew would show up. But that was just me, and I loved it. You know, my friends would get a little upset, like, hey man, I just invited you, not the crew.

I didn't want those people here.

So I don't want those. I was just inviting you. But it was always, I always felt, you know, I didn't want to leave people out. I, you know, I'm always an includer. And so in that moment, I just, you know, really came alive, but it definitely came, you know, out of, and everything came to fruition out of that initial fear and worry of like, I don't know how to do this. I've never shot on a large green screen before. I've never hired a jib, like a legit big rig jib operator and a bunch of other things that we needed for this. But, bringing the right team coming together. It was definitely a beautiful moment in my career.

Yeah. And there's a lot of different ways that that could have gone differently, right? Like, yes, if, if you end up— you could have not taken the gig to begin with, but as it expanded, you could have panicked and, and let that fear dictate what you were doing. And maybe you did feel fear in the moment of like, you know, as it kept growing and growing. And, but I, I think you, you touch on a great point. I think entrepreneurs get to a point where, you know, all right, they figured their, their craft out, whatever it is, and they've gotten really good at it. And, and for some, they, they are, are content to stay there. But, but a lot of us want to continue to grow. And I think the natural step is, is what you're talking about, where you move into the manager, coordinator, producer, creator role, where you're putting the people together to create something that you can't create yourself. Um, and that's, that's true in any business. I think it's easier for us to get our brains around with a creative industry because that, that makes more sense when you start, start talking about jib operators and having a director of photography and, you know, all of these other elements. But, but like in my business, I, you know, it was about getting the people in place where they were actually— they were better at what they did than I was. And it was then about creating this common purpose for them to work together. And that's where I think, you know, the deeper satisfaction comes with being an entrepreneur is moving into that stage.

I would definitely agree with that. Yeah, I've had a lot of friends locally who have shifted in their careers or within their particular niche in the creative industries. And I think a lot of times it's been hard, but it's been good to see people start to move and adjust into the space and place that they were meant to be. Um, versus the place that they felt comfortable. And oftentimes I've had friends have to, you know, move out of state, or they've, you know, changed careers. And sometimes it's hard because I'm, you know, I'm seeing friends move out of the industry, or, um, you know, people that I might not hang out with as much because we're not, you know, in a particular working relationship. And, um, but still be able to, um, you know just recognize and be excited for the shifts and changes that, that have occurred in their life, because they're actually really stepping more into really who they're meant to be. And yeah, it's, it's hard, but it's been good. We've actually had a lot of people here in San Diego either switch careers or move out of San Diego for various reasons. And so it's, it's definitely a shifting world here. In the last, uh, probably 3, 4 years.

But hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Well, I want to pivot back to something you said where you said that you spent a lot of time— I'm going to use my words— trying to find your groove, you know, going back and forth and then taking the 9 to 5. And like, where did that moment of clarity come of like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing?

Hmm. Yeah, actually, there was more moment of creativity or more, more clarity. There was more clarity that came recently, actually, surprisingly. I mean, I've been in the creative industries for over 20 years now. I've had my business a little over 12 years, actually, almost 14 years. And then within running my business full-time and just focusing on video production versus a lot of the other creative things I was helping to do for other businesses. There was actually a moment about a, a good year ago that I thought I was actually completely switching careers and industries. You know, our family had a really bad mold situation where our whole family got super sick. of It's a home we had lived in for several years. And that, you know, was a catalyst for a lot of learning and a lot of trying to understand, you know, building health and a lot of things. And so over, you know, kind of some downturns in the industry over the last couple of years and some, some shifting, I thought I was actually going to be switching careers and jumping into the home health space and was actually launching another business. As I was, you know, continuing with, with my video production company and was trying to put the pieces in the puzzle and all these things together. And, um, we were also right in the middle of a move and, and our family was transitioning. But I had this pretty big moment of clarity about maybe 6 months ago now that I was, as I was looking at all the different things I've done in the industry, all the different opportunities I've, you know, been thankful to be a part of, um, and all the different shifts I've taken, um, within my own business that I, I've now realized, hey, I'm actually at a point, um, much farther down the road, um, to, to really say, I've been here long enough. Why do I need to jump ship? And why do I need to switch careers? And it's like, I have a business. It's moving. I have clients, uh, you know, I have a name here in the industry here in San Diego. Surprisingly, I actually have more Google reviews than any other business, you know, that's been here twice as long, 3 times longer than I have, which is really funny to think about. And so there was just all these other, you know, like, I've built something strong and good. And why would I want to leave this? And so I had to do some soul searching and thinking, okay, what am I really good at? What do I really love doing? And it was really understanding again, hey, I'm a producer. I love bringing people together. I love building bridges in the industry and I love solving problems. And so I was like, I can do that in any industry and any career that I have. Why not do that and really focus on that aspect of who I am in my business versus completely switching careers and trying to start a new company. So, it was that realization that I can take the core of who I am anywhere I want to. Sure. It doesn't matter the industry, it doesn't matter the company. But, if I really spend time developing what I'm really good at at my core, then my business is going to grow, or the company I work for is going to grow. And so it was like, okay, I already have this company, it's already going. I just need to be better at what I'm good at. And so that was a, that was a really good wake-up call and, you know, realization that I didn't need to jump ship. I didn't need to switch careers. I just needed to get better at what I love doing.

I love that phrase, better at what I'm good at. Yeah, I, I think there's a lot of wisdom in focusing on what you're good at rather than trying to focus on what you're not good at, whether that means delegating, you know, initially to get the things that you're not good at off of your plate, or it means, you know, like I can I can always improve, uh, what I'm already good at. There's always room for improvement. There's always— and, and, you know, focusing on the negative and your weakness, that, that tends to suck a lot more energy than leaning into what you're good at, because that usually makes you happy and recharges your, your energy, right? And I, I know, uh, for me that was a, a tough lesson. Like, I, I felt like as the entrepreneur I had to figure it all out. I like, because I was responsible for it, and so like I, I, I had to be good at everything. Well, that's not reasonable, right? Um, and just acknowledging that your own limitations and then surrounding yourself whether it's employees or contractors or partners, relationships, whatever that is, with the things that you don't do well is very empowering because then it's like, I don't have to worry that I'm not good at running a jib, you know?

I mean, yep. Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely say if something that would have helped me in my career was obviously to come to where I'm at now much sooner. You know, we always say that, like, you know, hindsight's 20/20. We wish we knew the things we knew now way back when. Um, and there was, there was actually a pretty solid moment in my career, um, when I was stepping into, um, you know, growing and expanding and networking and, and jumping out of the wedding film industry, like, you know, right into corporate industries. And there was a close friend that we were, you know, we partnered together on a lot of projects, you know, just hired each other out. Hey, you know, can you help me on this? Or vice versa. And there were probably about 2 to 3 years of us working really hard to try and actually legitimately partner together, like build a company together, launch it together, be co-owners together. And, you know, something would always come up and we'd, you know, either family or, um, you know, it was mostly external challenges that would keep us somehow from like connecting and, and, and actually putting our businesses physically together. And, um, but what I realized now is that we, um, we had some similar, uh, we were both good at the same thing. We're both good at networking and we're both good at the you know, being in person and the people. Um, and neither of us were very good at executing, right, the, the jobs that, you know, needed to happen. And so we'd actually get our own backlogs up and, you know, we'd kind of get overwhelmed, and then we'd both hunker down in our own projects and our own things and, um, you know, to try to, you know, just, you know, find some balance. And then we'd, you know, both peek our heads back up like, oh hey, you're still there, okay. And sometimes we'd actually even like rent and use the same office. And, you know, but sometimes, you know, we'd be working side by side for weeks, but sometimes we just felt like we never even, you know, saw each other. And what we realized, and what I realized now, is that obviously we had similar things that we're both good at, that had we actually started to build a team at that time in, in our trying to connect, um, we, we could have crushed it. Um, you know, he was really good at sales and driving it home and pulling in the sale. And I was really good at the initial reach out and the follow-up and some of the courses, like putting systems in place and some other things. And so there were a lot of things that we could have, you know, you know, done and worked together. But had we started building a team early and finding the right people to do the things that we either didn't want to do or didn't know how to do, um, you know, this about a little over 10 years ago, we could have built a really solid business really fast. But, you know, we were both, you know, newly into the entrepreneurial space and trying to figure things out, and our families were growing and shifting and changing. And so there was a lot of change that just kind of kept us from, you know, really understanding where we needed to be.

Yeah, I, I, two things come to mind on that. One is you, you say I wish I knew then what I know now. And I have, I have beat myself up a couple of times about like, why did it take you so long to figure that out? Yes. But, you know, the reality is that no one can do it for you. It's not like some, some mentor can come into you and dump all this into your brain and it just happened. You have to go through the experience to learn the lesson. And it's hard. So sometimes, you know, like me, I have to learn the lesson multiple times. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, I, you know, I get it now. The second thing I would say is that, yeah, there's, there's there's nothing more terrifying than two visionaries getting in a room and talking about potential, you know? Yes. And they get their ideas going and like, wow, we could do this and this and that. And then at the end, it's like, okay, who's going to do all that?

Who's going to put in the work?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's not that we're not willing to do the work.

Sure.

It's that what needs to be done doesn't interest us. Right? The, the, the, the, you know, most entrepreneurs, um, when they get to the point where they have to manage people or processes or, you know, that, that maintaining a business part doesn't excite us. And, and, uh, you know, we can do it, but, you know, it's not what we love. Uh, and, and I've seen a lot of entrepreneurs get really burnt out at that point where it's like, I, I, this isn't fun anymore. And, uh, it's because, well, that's not what you're good at. And, and why would it be fun?

Yes. And we were at the same time, and this is, you know, very true in a lot of different careers, but definitely in the video production industry, we were, um, masking our imposter syndrome, uh, with gear acquisition. So we were, you know, obviously newly into the career and you know, a lot of guys, a lot of, you know, girls, you know, we jump into the industry thinking we need this camera to get this job to be able to make more money. And so we had, we were, we were deep into that trap thinking that, you know, we needed this and that other thing. And we both went into an obscene amount of debt, you know, trying to get the newest thing, thinking that if we had this and if we had that, but it was looking back, we were just hiding our imposter syndrome and, um, you know, thinking we needed this thing to be able to, you know, level up when really, you know, we just needed to hone in and in into, you know, what we were really good at and really understanding ourselves and just, you know, having some more confidence in obviously what we knew at the time, which was a good amount to be able to, you know, start a business and, you know, work with clients and be able to do stuff. And so Yeah, I think if I could go back in time and change one thing in my business, the very first thing I would tell myself is don't worry about the gear. Rent it, borrow it, do not buy it. Be the producer. But don't go buy that camera. Don't go buy this piece of gear and spend that money rather on the business development, personal development, and it would have taken me a lot farther, a lot faster.

Had you had the benefit of my book, uh, from, from the outset, you, you would have read the chapter, uh, that, that talks about that distraction where I, I call it shiny object syndrome, um, which I, I think entrepreneurs in general are guilty of.

Yes, very much so.

But it, you know, the way it manifests a lot of times is with new stuff for the business. And, you know, I speak very clearly to this in the book that if you don't know how you're going to make money with something you're spending money on, whether that's equipment or software or people, you know, it doesn't matter if you're going to invest your profit in something, or borrow money is even worse, but like, you know, if you're going to spend money on something, you need to have a clear idea of how you're going to make enough money to pay for it and that it is a good return on your investment. And to kind of what you said, it's kind of like that not treating it like a business, like it, you know, that, you know, applying basic business principles. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. What would you say is, you know, sitting in 2025, is your biggest challenge right now? Biggest problem you're trying to solve for your business or for you?

I'll probably speak personally because it definitely bleeds into the business. Um, side of things. And I think it would be the, um, you know, kind of how we talked a little bit, a little bit earlier about stepping out, you know, doing something that's a little different, a little outside the comfort zone. Um, but it's, uh, it's, it's kind of like when you know the steps you need to take, um, but you're afraid to take them, um, out of, you know, different fears or worries or maybe lack of of potential resources. Um, I think for me, something that I've struggled with, and I'm, you know, gonna get real personal here, is discipline. Um, I've, you know, I've been a very, you know, fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants, um, you know, figure it out as you go, build the plane as you're flying. And I've been— I've almost, in a lot of ways, kind of thrived off of that, like sure, you know, the adrenaline, the excitement of like, I don't know how this is going to work out, but you know, we're gonna, we're gonna jump from this cliff, and we're gonna, you know, try and figure out how to fly on the way down. And, but obviously, you know, having a family living in sunny San Diego, which is one of the most expensive places in the United States to live, you know, and a lot of other factors, there's a level of you know, discipline that comes with owning your own business, taking care of your own family, um, that, you know, I've always known has been lacking at some point, um, at some level that, you know, really needed to change. And so, um, actually starting out this year, I had, um, a couple, uh, coaches and people in my corner to help really kind of drive that out and, you know, say, hey, you know, what does your personal discipline look like in your life, you know, your daily routines, your ability to, you know, come up with plans and stick to them and different things. And I, I've always felt like I've lived in this fight or flight slash, you know, chaotic, you know, everything's gonna turn out okay, you know. I've always been— had a sunny disposition and, um, you know, always give people the benefit of the doubt. And, you know, always assuming it's just gonna work out, you know, just, it's all gonna work out, you're gonna wake up the next morning, it's all gonna be okay. But there's been a level of detriment to that at the same time in growing my business and, you know, financial responsibilities and business responsibilities, relational responsibilities that have all required a level of discipline that has been lacking. And so for me, I think it's, um, It's honing that discipline within my business, doing the boring work, creating some better systems, and having— rebuilding and building a new level of discipline for myself and for my business to create sustainability, to create practicality, which has never been part of my vocabulary., you know, being able to build some things based off of knowledge and wisdom and understanding that, okay, this is how I do it, this is how it needs to be done. Um, and actually putting that into practice versus saying, well, I'm just going to do my own thing. I'm going to figure it out as I go. And, uh, so that's, that's been, um, challenging, um, but good. And I know the direction that is actually going to be probably the most beneficial in my year this year. Aside from beginning to also continue my journey and niching down in the, you know, in my industry and where I ultimately want to head.

So yeah, I think, I think creatives, you know, and entrepreneurs in general, like the whole idea of processes and systems. Is perceived as a negative. I know for me, you know, the idea of processes, that sounded like big business. Like, I don't want that. I, you know, to speak to you, like being in the creative flow is comfortable. Like, you know, we're just going to figure it out as we go. And that feeds our problem solving, which is, Honestly, I think that's the underlying compulsion of entrepreneurs is to solve problems. Like we see things like, well, let's fix it. And we get a lot of joy out of that. But I've come to realize that, you know, that works until it doesn't. Yes. And, you know, for our business, we operated almost 20 years that way. Um, but I, I realized that over that 20 years, I had not been doing, uh, a lot of things right, one of which was focusing on profit. We did not make, uh, the money that we should have. And it was only when, um, I started to put in processes that we were able to have that result. And I would say that processes, discipline, actually equates to freedom. And so the thing that, the, the thing that I was resistant to because I saw that as a limitation of the freedom is actually, uh, what has given me the freedom that I have now., and you know, why didn't— why did it take me so long to figure that out?

Yes.

I don't know.

Yeah, no, good systems in, in place, it does, because it frees up our entrepreneurial brain to focus on what we need to focus on, which isn't necessarily the systems, unless you're a systems engineer and that's your thing and that's what you love to do, which is great. There's plenty of people for that. But when you are able to implement systems in your business,, for growth, for focusing on profit, um, for the financial side of things, um, it does it, you know, it really frees up our brain to be able to, you know, get better and do the things we love and obviously get more joy out of our, our business and our work and our creativity, um, versus, you know, being stressed out that our systems are broken and, you know, you don't know how to fix it, so you just keep living in that stress mode. Yeah, I think something for me that I wish I would have done a lot sooner, a lot, lot sooner, like probably 10, 12 years ago, is really tried to under— like, right now I have, you know, a couple sticky notes that I look at every day. And it's, it's my financial goals, it's my profit goals. And it's my what I need to live in San Diego goals. At a minimum. And then here's where I want to live in San Diego, because you can live in San Diego and not enjoy anything because you are just grinding away, just trying to, you know, wake up the next day. But, you know, for my family, we love to get out, we love to explore, we obviously love going to, you know, the beach and, you know, really enjoying San Diego. But to really enjoy it in a way that, you know, you're actually enjoying it versus forcing yourself. Um, it, you know, it costs a little money to be able to do that. And so, yes, um, being able to look at the big numbers— I, I never understood how to do that because I was always focused on the day-to-day, waking up, paying the bill. But saying, here's the big number, how do I work backwards from that big number? Yes. To be able to accomplish what I need to do. And I think that's one of, you know, the biggest things that I've gotten out of, you know, Profit first is you're looking at the big numbers first, and then you're working backwards to figure out how to get there. And I think that's been, you know, probably one of the biggest things, um, you know, for me, probably over the last 3 years. And I wish it would have been sooner to look at that big number first and say, okay, here's what we need to do. And then you put the systems in place to be able to get there.

Yeah, but I, I, I think you started with the first, like the Post-it notes, like you've changed your intent. Yes, Profit First is a tool, but you, you've decided that this is your intent. I want to have this much profit. Yes. And that's— once you do that, all of your creative energy will come to bear and you'll figure it out. Um, but it starts with making it a priority and saying, this is what I'm going to do. Jordan, how do, um, folks find out more about you and what you do?

Yeah, so website storyisgreater.com, and I am on all social channels @storyisgreater.com. And yeah, probably, probably one of the quickest ways to find me. I'm on all the channels as well, and I love connecting with people on LinkedIn right now. So just search Story Is Greater or Jordan Kirkham on LinkedIn and you'll find me. And probably one of the two biggest platforms I'm really focusing on this year is both YouTube and LinkedIn for business growth. And yeah, really excited, been able to connect with a lot of really good people this year so far on LinkedIn, which is actually where we connected. Yes. Not too long ago to get this conversation started. So thanks for reaching out.

Absolutely. Listeners, go make Jordan's day and connect with him on LinkedIn or wherever you prefer. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, send us a message and tell us what you would like, and we'll get rid of Jordan. Until then, ta-ta for now.