Piyush Patel: Pain as a Catalyst for Change

the love of the idea of this object called a business. Right. And when they talk about parental love, what that really is, is, look, if either one of us had a kid in middle school or grade school and they fell off at PE, we'd stop the interview and go, right? Right. This is how we're wired. That same wiring is the call to that business. I've got— I've got to go. I got to go. It needs me. It needs me more than anybody. But it's not me that's wrapped up in it, right? I'm there to provide, much like you would provide for a child. So it's a different way to look at it.

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside, and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Christian Brim joining you from the Dream Big Studios. And I have with us today the interview I've been waiting for a while, the esteemed Pish Patel. Welcome, sir. Thank you. I've been looking forward to this interview because you have been so much part of this journey that I'm exploring. So I'm going to kind of go off script here that we don't have a specific study that we've, uh, prepped. You've read a lot of studies, so I, if you have one, I would love to discuss it. If you have something that, that piques your interest that you want to discuss. But I want to start with an idea I had in an interview last week that really crystallized something for me. And that is that the character traits that we have as entrepreneurs that help us be successful at starting a business, those same character traits then become a liability as the business grows, right? And I'd always heard in entrepreneurial circles the whole, "What got you from point A to point B won't get you from B to C," right? But what was interesting as I was reflecting on that was when I heard that, I was thinking in terms of people, processes, things external to me, right? Maybe I'd need to be doing things differently, do different things in the business as the business grew, but really didn't catch that I had to change. What in your entrepreneurial journey has your experience been around that personal growth affecting the business?

You know, it's no different than when we visit with our employees, right? So if the company doubles next year, does each employee's capacity double, right? Does their intellectual capacity to manage this business double? And often most people say, no, it can't. But for some reason the entrepreneurs can, right? Because they're the only ones sticking around. And so, yeah, I think there's a cycle of growth and that initial growth is having an infant and you're trying to figure it out and feed and diaper this little, little baby. And, and then once it starts to become a teenager, you have to change your approach. And I find so many entrepreneurs stick with the diapers and baby food approach and then wonder why their business isn't growing.

So looking back at Digital Tutors, where, what did that look like in that specific business? You're having to change you.

Yeah, I think it was me starting to take a, a lesser and lesser role every year in terms of being the voice of the company. Company, the producer of the content, the guy who ships everything out, to starting to hire people way smarter than me and allowing them the space to grow the business. The real pivotal point of like, we're kicking the baby out of the house to let it grow up on its own, was the day we decided we're no longer gonna ship physical products and we're gonna go streaming. And it took an, uh, you know, a leap of faith because the reality of it was, was This was 3 years before Netflix went streaming. So customers really didn't understand what that nomenclature meant. And so, yeah, you talk about shoving your kid out the front door and saying, go figure it out, you know, become an adult. That's when we really became an adult because at that point, nobody in the company, including me, knew what would tomorrow turn out to be like. Up until then, I had kind of just rinse and repeated my processes., just at larger and larger scales, but nothing really changed.

So looking back on that, that pivot, how would you compare it to when you started the business as far as like what it took from you mentally?

Oh my gosh. When we started, it was just, I taught all day, so I was a college professor and I'd get home at 6. I'd work, I'd, we'd, you know, make dinner, we eat dinner, and then I'd work till about 1, 1:30 in the morning. Drive 20 miles down the road to drop these packages off, get up at 6 and do it again. And I did that for almost a year. And so that is not sustainable. You just can't continue that. And so early on there were no systems. It was just figure it out as we go and deal with the fire of the day. Right. To evolving to having the systems run the business. And so we can think about other things than fires of the day.

Yeah, so that initial startup was more what I think entrepreneurs call the grind, like just, just get it done, whatever it takes. Um, the mental struggle of saying, okay, I'm changing my business model, I'm essentially firing all my customers and hope they come back. What was that like mentally?

Very scary. I mean, we were at, you know, millions in revenue and lots of warm bodies that work for me that I care about. And I walked in and said, okay, on this date we are gonna pretty much shut everything down and tomorrow morning we're gonna start something new. I hope the customers get it.

Did, did, how did your team react to that?

Uh, you know, it was mixed. We had, uh, for the most part everybody got on board. There were a few holdouts that were like, nope, I think we're going off the cliff., and I think they'd still believe we're going off the cliff, right? Um, because change is very scary. And once you've got something that's established and it works, uh, but we had to change, right? All my cash was tied up in these plastic discs. And if you ordered one of everything, that was a 26-pound box. And each disc holds, let's say, 5, 6 hours of content. You're looking for a 10-minute clip.

Right.

Good luck. Right. And I think that was what's the hard part for us to really communicate to people, which was you don't want to go through 5 hours. That's an old way of thinking. But they hadn't really adopted a new way yet.

Yes. And so when— how did you lead your team through that change? So you had people that were on board, you had people that were not on board, and had other people that said, well, I mean, I guess if this is the way we're going, we're going, you know, kind of. So how did you lead through that change?

Yeah, I mean, I always say we're as entrepreneurs, we're benevolent dictators, right? And I cared about the process. I cared about what are we missing, not missing. But the reality is, is we had to evolve. You know, just the writing on the wall, the— all our cash is tied up in plastic and what do we do? So I just look, everybody's got their own way of what I call motivation, which is a code word for manipulation. And mine is, let's all rally together and we're going to do this together. Partially because I feel like if we're all going to go off the cliff, it'd be funner to go with everybody than just by myself. So I just, I dialed up the motivation, like we are going to go change. So, you know, our big BHAG, or, you know, wild crazy goal was we're going to become the ESPN of our industry. ESPN doesn't provide weather news. Yeah, they don't really provide political news. They are sports and they are trusted. The score shows up on ESPN. It's pretty trusted, right? We want to be that in that industry of visual effects and movies and video games.

And you did it.

And we did. Yeah. But everybody had to be inspired to go, yes, this is what we're going to become. And to do that, we have to do this.

Yes. So where in that process of making that pivot did you find that your old ways were getting in your way?

Yes. So still running meetings the old way, right? So we adopted EOS and put in a system of even the cadences and the meetings and what we're going to work on. Part of it was also me having some discipline and, and myself, which I don't have a lot of. And so I empowered my staff to hold me accountable. So I would run in and say, hey, wouldn't it be great if we did this today? And they had the permission to go, oh, that'd be great. What would you like us to stop doing? And my old way was, I don't want you to stop doing anything. I just want you to do more. Right, right. And so, you know, really understanding, look, I pay my people for 40 hours of work. In reality I'm getting 26, right? And so having that understanding that, oh, wait a minute, I'm not— if I add more to your plate, we're all losing, right? And so those kinds of things, I had to really change the way I approached how do we manage our folks, how do we manage the budget of payroll, and are the things we do actually making a difference or are we just putting out more fires that we are starting ourselves?

Yeah, for me, what you're describing is patience, which I haven't met an entrepreneur yet that is patient. Like, they, they come up with this idea and they wanted to start it yesterday, and they want everybody to buy in and get on board, right? And, um, having someone say no to that, uh, doesn't feel good. What other characteristics did you have that made you successful in the startup that became hindrances in your business?

Yeah. So I grew up with a, if you want done something right, do it yourself. Looking back now, that really is just a trust factor, right? I had an unusual attachment to my parents in that I didn't know if I could trust them, so I would trust myself to do it. That's kind of what that means. And so I had to really stop doing that, right? And what happened was, uh, my wife is my business partner, right? And so she comes in with a very secure attachment style, right? Mm-hmm. She is even keel, salt of the earth, and I am wired like a Christmas tree. So having her, uh, in my life allowed me to rely on her to go, okay, wait a minute. She's very consistent. I'm very inconsistent. Maybe I don't have to do everything myself and I can trust other people. And so that journey healed me in many other ways than just building a business.

You told me, you recalled a story to me. I recall a story you told me, and I don't remember the specifics, but it was some process in your business. You had delegated authority to do something, but somehow it always ended up back in your lap. I don't remember what the process was. Is that an example of that trust factor?

Let's take it back one more step, right? So we produced video-based content for people who make movies and video games. Phase 1, I will make the videos. That's me. That's— I'm that guy. I make the videos. Oh my gosh, I can't make all the videos. Now what do I do? You know what? Why don't I get a bunch of really smart people They can prep all the videos, but I'll record them, right? Because only I can record the videos. You see the limiting factor here? The revelation of, wait a minute, what if I stop recording the videos and I empower these other really smart people who are prepping everything to record the videos? That one was a hard one to let go because it was my voice, my image, right? And so how do I stop making essentially a show where I'm the host of the show and build out a network where we've got all of this content. That was a huge trust piece because I'm hoping what they say on this video is accurate, reliable, what the customer wants, right? Not that I had all those answers, but I would trust myself to have those answers. Right. And so little things like that, you know, not being in charge of the payment system. That was a huge one for me to let go. I've gotta trust this team of people who are now gonna manage millions of dollars coming in and out of this business. But I need to do that because A, I'm not good at it, and B, it's the worst use of my time, really.

So you said it was a trust factor. You said it's self-reliance and that, that goes back to, uh, you said I couldn't trust my parents. With your permission, I would like to dig into that a little further. What do you mean when you say that?

Well, I don't mean in terms of trust as in they would violate my trust, right? So if we look at, for example, Bowlby's attachment styles, right? Within that attachment, there's, you know, 4 different types of attachment. Essentially, if you're a securely attached person, what that means is when you're a baby and you cry, your parents are gonna tend to you, take care of you, change your diaper. Uh, if you are anxiously attached, what that means is your parents may leave and then they may not come back in when you're calling them or need them, or you got a wet diaper. People are busy. And so you start to form this reliance of like, I can just do it. Or within that case, you scream even louder to let it known, I need help. I need help. Right? I'm always arguing. And so, you know, my parents worked. Crazy, crazy amount of hours. They were just trying to put food on the table. I see that now. But at the time, gosh, I didn't know if anyone was gonna hold me if I need to be held. So you form these, uh, systems very early on in childhood and then you carry them into your adult world. And so that's what I mean by, you know, having parents who were so busy that cooing me and holding me was the least of their daily issues for the day. Right.

How many kids were in the family?

Uh, just my brother and I. Okay.

And he's younger?

He's 6 years younger. We had a large extended family that we all stayed together.

Okay. So that's interesting. You bring up attachments. I read, recently read, uh, the book Secure Love. Uh, have you read it?

Yeah, great book.

It's a great book. And my wife listened to it and we're kind of going through it together. And what's interesting to me is that these attachment styles. So she's, she's avoidant, I'm anxious. And so how they, uh, play against each other, uh, kind of feed each other. But what's more insightful as far as the business is concerned is how that anxiety, uh, of attachment impacted the business. I can see it in the personal relationship I could see it easier than I could see that the impact that it was having on the business. So was there at some point that you realized, hey, I'm the problem? Like what? Like, like a revelation of like, oh, this is, this is why this is wrong in the business is because of the way I'm behaving.

Yeah. No, I don't think any entrepreneur could see that. We always got the right answers, right? Right. And I surprisingly surround myself with people who also agree with me that I have the right answers. Yes. So it's really hard to really parse that out because you are constantly surrounded by people who have a vested interest in maintaining their job because of their personal needs and security. Right. And so for me, it really was closer to the sale of the business that I realized maybe this is about as far as I can take this project that I've started.. And I don't know if I want to do it for another 10 years.

So that was part of your motivation to sell?

That was, yeah. The company was never for sale. And we get a phone call and it was sold in 6 weeks.

So it was interesting. So you, you had made a comment to me after the sale that you said, I'm glad we sold it when we did, because it was, I don't know if you use the word dumpster fire, but like that there were problems, right? Were you in a space mentally to say, can I change to fix those problems? Like, can I level up?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it was a— I wouldn't say dumpster fire. It was the healthiest it was ever going to be. And then the next step of that would be such rapid growth. That I probably wouldn't be the best leader for that, primarily because I get so attached to my employees. And to triple the headcount and really go gangbusters also comes with having to make very hard decisions about letting old folks go because you need more bandwidth, right? And I'm not wired that way. And I recognize that about myself, that I would be the limiting factor of this business.

What I— my experience is, and I haven't sold my business, but I walked away from it, um, and, and when I came back, really started this journey of, of change, um, of myself. Um, but what's, what's interesting to me was I didn't start it as a change of myself. I started it as a, okay, we're going to implement EOS because what we've been doing isn't working, right? I felt like I'd hit that limit, and, um, which is why I had walked away because I was so frustrated with it, right? So come back and I'm, I'm like, I'm going to implement EOS and we're going to do this until it gets back on track, and then I'm going to exit again because I, I had lost my passion for it. But what happened through implementing EOS was I realized that there were underlying problems. It's like, I don't know what the analogy would be, but, you know, you put the pattern up on the wall and it starts to make sense, right? And that issue was trust. Interestingly enough, we had tried to implement EOS a few years before. Self-implement. We did not hire an integrator— I mean, an implementer. And it failed. And, um, it wasn't until we were like year 2 or year 3 implementing EOS the second time that I realized the problem was trust. There was no trust in the organization, right? And by trust, I mean, you know, I use the word trust— you know, that's, that's an ambiguous word. I trust that you're not going to pull a gun on me as we're sitting here recording this, right? But, you know, would I trust you with my infant child? I don't know. That's a different level of trust, right? And for me in the business, the trust factor was, will you do what you've agreed to do from my standpoint? Okay, but what I didn't realize is their trust factor, and there was a mutual lack of trust, right? And their lack of trust was, well, this is just going to be something that you change your mind on in 3 or 6 months and go some other direction. So what— or, or you're going to ask me to do it and then you're going to step in and fix it, right? And so there was just this overall lack of trust, and that's what it revealed to me.

Yeah. How'd you overcome that?

I think in a lot of ways I'm, I'm, I'm still working on it. But what, what I, I think the, the, the thing that was pivotal was realizing that it was, it was me. It, you know, like I had to change. And that was, um, a difficult pill to swallow, but it was also very apparent that that I had to change. I didn't have a clear path as to how to change. I just knew I had to be different. And as I did and the trust grew, the business changed immensely since we implemented EOS. So we don't serve the same customers. We don't have the same products. We don't have a lot of the same people. The leadership team is 100% different. My, my brother, who was my partner, is gone. Um, completely different entity. Um, but none of that could have happened if I had not changed my understanding of myself and my behavior.

Yeah. And what was the tipping point of the pain that caused that change? Because most people don't want to change.

Well, no, no, they don't. And I think I actually at that point was anxious and avoidant, right? And so I did what any avoidant person did. I ran away from the company. Okay, right. Um, left my brother in charge, and I started a software company. Um, that's a story for another day. But what drew me back in was the business was failing, you know. It had, it had dropped 20% in 2 years, and, and Nathan, my brother, was not cut out for that role, right? He took it because I asked him to, right? But he, he didn't necessarily want it or have the skills to do it. And so it was financial pain that pushed me back in, right? I mean, and I, I think you bring a very valid point, is that— and maybe you can speak to this more from a clinical standpoint— is that people— I accepted a level of pain to avoid an unknown pain.

That's right.

Right?

Yeah, a lot of people do that.

And in reality, the— I would say the pain of changing was less than the pain that I was experiencing, right?

Yeah, the perceived pain was greater than the reality of the pain.

Yes. And so how would you advise somebody that's been there and gone through that? And I see it now is that it's when I'm coming up to that upper limit problem going into something that is new and I still have those fears, it's easier for me to identify and deal with them. But if you're just starting out, how do you advise someone to deal with that perceived pain?

I mean, that's a really tough one because each scenario is different and each person is different. Um, but I think having a peer group where you can be vulnerable and honest, it shines light that most people can't shine on themselves. And so seeing it from another person's perspective and going, "Are you really addressing that? You know, why are you running away from that?" And it's okay. Sometimes you have to run away. You know, sometimes you have to step back to go, "Wait a minute, what am I here to do?" Right?

So we're both an EO. In your forum, did that peer group help you see yourself?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I got to see other people get close to the edge, some people tip off the edge, right? So I got to see people have great success in their business after huge pivots, which gave me confidence. And then I've seen people who've lost everything, which makes me a little gun-shy, right? And not as overconfident as I should be. And so seeing even other people's journey, without EO, I would just be on my own on a racetrack with my own car wondering, am I winning, losing? Where am I in the pack? You don't know. But when you're with a pack, right? A little tribe going through life together, all being able to relate to each other, all of a sudden you start to see your own flaws just in what you're sharing with people, right? So why am I scared about that? Why am I running away from this? Why don't I want to address? Why do I keep bringing up the same thing every month, right? And which is a reflection on, I just don't wanna deal with it. And so a little bit of accountability, a little bit of mirroring and having just some friends who can say, I understand what you're doing and what you're going through. And I don't know if I can help you, but here to listen. Well, that, that does half of it, you know?

Yeah. 'Cause I, I mean, you're in the therapy space. I, I, the, the, um, ability to process your feelings just by yourself is extremely difficult. Clinically, do you have any explanation for that? Why can't I sit with my emotions and sort it all out and figure it out by myself? Why do I need to, whether it's a peer group or a coach or a therapist, why do I need that?

A lot of people can. So, and we do it daily, right? We're not with a therapist 24 hours a day. You know, we use our partners to talk to, we talk to our family, our friends, peer groups. So we are actually doing that all the time, you know, but the therapeutic relationship, it really is, I'm, I've got to stay a very even keel. My prefrontal cortex is calm and regulated. The person sitting across from me is dysregulated and moving 100 miles an hour. And within that 45 minutes, their brain is going to start to mirror me. And so as long as I stay even keeled, they will match. You see this a lot with kids, right? So the kids are screaming and yelling. The worst thing the parent can do is scream louder because you're just reinforcing, yes, this is the mirroring I want you to do. If you just stay even, calm, and keeled, it may take a little while, but they will drop down to match you. Because they want to communicate at the end of the day.

So that's very interesting because when I did couples therapy, uh, marriage therapy counseling with my wife, um, what I was able to notice was, you know, that my wife and I would have this conversation at home when we weren't in therapy. It's like, why can't we do this without her, right? And my observation was, well, she doesn't have any emotional skin in the game, right? She's not feeling vulnerable. She's not angry. She's not scared. And so she can maintain like a, not a referee, but the calm. And I think in couples, you see that, well, at least has been my experience in my marriage that Um, it's, it's hard sometimes to get out of the emotional cycle, right? It's not the problem that you're really disagreeing about, it's the emotional insecurity that goes along with it.

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Now let's apply that to an entrepreneur who is faced with needing to change the business model. And now every one of those emotions is rewrapped up and it's hard. It's hard to process that on your own.

Do you think you could have pivoted your business and gone streaming without having that peer group? Do you think you would've?

No, it wouldn't have even been on my radar. This idea of recurring revenue, which was so early on, right? Had a forum mate, do a presentation on, I think I'd like to start this idea called recurring revenue. And I was like, wow, that's really fascinating. Tell me more about that. Mailbox money. I like that idea. How does that work? And then within a 45-minute presentation, I walked out of there going, I gotta change everything. Right? Just hearing that idea, hearing other people talk it through and go, wait a minute. Well, what are the pitfalls? What's the— within 45 minutes, it changed my entire life trajectory.

Interesting. Do you consider yourself open to new ideas?

Oh, big time.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that's unique among entrepreneurs?

I think it is unique amongst the entrepreneur group because you started with an idea, right? I find less of that in generational businesses. Where dad's or mom's legacy we can't let down, so we can't change anything, even though we need to change things. Now, a lot of people can break out of that cycle, and I've seen them have tremendous success, but it's almost taken an event like a really, you know, clean separation of retirement or illness or something has caused the founder to step away. And allow others to go, okay, I think we can make changes.

Yeah, I've seen that in advising my clients over the years with family businesses and that intergenerational transfer, and it's fascinating to me, you know, you, you have on one level the economic, which is, you know, the founder needs to, uh, or feels like they should walk away with a certain amount of economic benefit from this thing that they've built. Um, but then there's the whole family dynamic where it's— even if it's a healthy relationship between the, the father and son or mother and daughter, whatever, the parent-child, it's still fraught with all of the, uh, undiscussed emotions, right? And, and it doesn't become about the sale of the business anymore. And so I think that's why more than anything, you don't see a lot of generational businesses being passed on like they used to, because it's just— I mean, I, I never thought that my kids were going to, uh, go into the business. Never, never crossed my mind. Uh, never set that expectation with them. I wonder if that is why there are fewer of those situations now, just because there's so much family trauma that gets wrapped up in it.

Well, and I'm— and to credit, you know, modern entrepreneurs versus older entrepreneurs, we are able to disconnect our identity from the business over time, where I think when you're all in as a generational business, it is your identity. So you can't turn your back on the identity of our family, can you? That's a tough one.

Well, let's talk about that for a minute because, uh, we, we've discussed that on previous interviews about the self-identity being wrapped up in the business. You, you were talking about making all the videos and you were the voice and you were the face, and obviously you were the business, right? Um, talk about how you went through that separation of, you know, Pish Patel is not Digital Tutors anymore?

My goodness. I, it's, it's— I sold that company 10 years ago and I still struggle with it, right? I'll get a rant. I got, I got a random email on Saturday from a kid on the other side of the planet and he was like, one day, will you please restart this business? And there's nothing like it. And it's just like, it warms your heart. You're like, I'm back in the game. No, I'm not back in the game. I'm too old to get back in the game. Right. Um, and so it's just hard. I, I don't know if there's a real answer to how, how to do that, how I did it. It was, it was, um, process and evolution. I can't point to like one day that, um, if I, if I did have to pick one moment, it was laying on a hospital table. And the guy says, uh, we need to do a, a catheter up your main blood vein to check your heart and this. And I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna have a heart attack today. Right? And all I could think about is there's no way my wife could run this business. Right? Even though we're in this together, we do two totally different parts of the business. And it's not fair to her to say, here you go, this is your retirement. Right? Try to figure this out. So that was the kind of precipice that put the, put the thought in my head, I need to work myself out of a job. This thing needs to run without me.

But yet you still have feelings for the company.

I do.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.

There's a great article that's a few years old now, but it's, it was done in, I believe, Finland, and it's called Entrepreneurial and Parental Love. Is entrepreneurial love the same as parental love?

Yes, I've read that one. We haven't discussed it yet. No one's wanted to take that one on. I don't know why, but go ahead. I want to discuss it.

No, I think it's, I think it's just, uh, it's very eye-opening in the science of love, right? So they use Sternberg's triangle of love, right? And within that they pretty much have scanned brains of entrepreneurs and brains of fathers, and they chose to, to work with men because there's already been a lot of data produced on love and in females. And so, you know, when you stop and think, wait a minute, the same parts of the brain light up with your child and your business, you will fear the loss of the business, you will celebrate the wins of the business. Um, and if, if you go back and reread the article, what's fascinating is they actually asked these folks questions while they're in the fMRI machine and they asked them questions like, uh, people who don't own a business but have children, will your child be successful? And they show a picture of their kids and they were overconfident. Yeah. Oh yes, of course. They're, they're definitely gonna become successful. When they asked entrepreneurs the same question, they were, of course, of course it's gonna be successful. They, they could not distinguish in the brain. If you showed the two scans side by side, you would not know which one was the entrepreneur and which one was the father. Right? So we see that and, you know, I'm still proud of what I built, much like I'm still proud of my son, right? Who's no longer my baby child. He's 22.

Right.

But I still feel for him as, He's— he will always be my child, right?

And so you said something that really kind of made me think. So we discussed in a previous interview the, uh, study on narcissistic tendencies, and then one of those narcissistic tendencies is overconfidence, right? And that's one of the things, the character traits that helps entrepreneurs be successful. But you're saying that it's also wired into that same part of the brain as we look at our children, right? And so I'm wondering if the overconfidence that we experience in starting a business is really more love of the business than love of ourself.

Right?

So, like, it's not that I have confidence in me. And I think that that's, you know, it's kind of an interesting thing because, you know, how many entrepreneurs have this strange paradigm where they're feeling exuberance about the opportunity for their business, but at the same time, self-doubt about like, I'm an imposter.

Sure, yeah. Those are two different things. Right? The love of the idea of this object called a business, right? Um, and when they talk about parental love, what that really is, is look, if either one of us had a kid in middle school or grade school and they fell off the, at PE, we'd stop the interview and go. That's just how we're wired. That same wiring is the call to that business. I've got, I've gotta go. I gotta go. It needs me. It needs me more than anybody. But it's not me that's wrapped up in it, right? I'm there to provide, much like you would provide for a child. So it's a different way to look at it.

That's really kind of eye-opening because I, I've thought about that. And, you know, we've had many conversations in Forum around the imposter syndrome over the years. And like, you, you question yourself, right? But how can you hold that in your, your mind at the same time that you have this confidence in your business? Right. Yeah.

Really fascinating. And, you know, uh, we'll finish this topic. So, um, within Bowen family systems, there's this idea of triangulation, right? So when a, um, like we'll just say mother, father, or fathers or mothers, doesn't matter. The couple has a dysfunction. Oftentimes they will rope in a third person, typically the child, and it's, it's either going to be the oldest or the youngest, right? If there's more than two. And what happens is you go from this dyad, right? It's like this pair to now a triangle. But what really happens is a new dyad forms and it's usually one parent and the child are now, uh, supporting each other and scheming against the third. Okay. And it's very dysfunctional. And believe it or not, that's that generational trauma that happens because that triangle then just reforms in the next generation and the next gen, because it was patterned to them. And so part of my research for my dissertation is, you know, considering and looking at if the entrepreneur sees the business as a child and within their romantic relationship does the business become the third leg of that triangle? And does it create unnecessary dysfunction within the relationship, specifically around marital and sexual satisfaction within that relationship, when you've got this third object that holds one person's attention more than the other's?

Well, yeah, and I, I can speak to that, to my experience. I mean, I don't know how many times my wife and I started the business together. Um, she left, uh, you know, active a couple of years into it and was back and forth in the business over the years. But what I heard from her many times was, you know, that business is more important than I am, right? Sure. Yeah. And It's from my standpoint, it was, if you flip that over and we're talking about your kid, right? Well, you think that Catherine is more important than I am.

Yeah.

Would it sound the same? I mean, because, you know, it's kind of like, I'm just wondering if I'd had that insight back then, would I have been able to handle it differently? Because from my standpoint, I didn't think that the business was more important than she, any more than I thought that our daughter was more important than she was.

Right. But your behavior, though you didn't think that way, your behavior said something else that she picked up on.

And because of her attachment issues, she, she couldn't address it, right? She would just bury her feelings and not, not deal with them, right?

Um, well, the fact that you both started it, they call that a copreneur or copreneurship. Where you, a romantic couple starts a business together. Unfortunately, they're never 50/50 partners in all decision-making. Somebody takes a dominant role and somebody takes a support role. And, you know, statistically the male usually takes on the dominant role and the support role goes to the, to the female partner in the relationship. And they're put in a situation where they're supposed to sympathize with the person in charge. But they're not really the parent of that business.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's, that's a great example because we didn't treat our business vis-à-vis our relationship the same way we handled parenting. Right. Very interesting. There's so much to dig into. Anything else that you would like to give as experience share or advice around the importance of mental health, self-awareness, mindset to entrepreneurs?

Oh my goodness. Yeah, so this is my whole next chapter of my life, right? Is, you know, there's lots of coaches out there and I'm really starting to get into the no advice business, right? Because it's unvetted for that person. Um, and I've, and I've come to realize that even within the mental health space, there is stigma against, um, successful people, especially when you're, you know, when you're sitting across from somebody who is just trying to make their house payment and here you are making millions of dollars a year. It's, that's a tough, that's a tough situation to be in. And I've come to the realization that One of the things that holds entrepreneurs back the most, and hopefully all your listeners can maybe sympathize with this, is this idea of cresting a peak of success.

Mm-hmm.

And then sabotage, self-sabotage. And what that is, is that, that little voice in the back of your head that says, man, when I was in 9th grade and I got bullied by that guy and he told me I was a piece of crap. That I'll never amount to anything, or that uncle who said, you're never going to amount to anything. You know what? I'm about to amount to something. But what if I can't? You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to shake this whole thing up so I can stay in chaos. And, you know, I was going to be successful, but man, the market turned on me and we had to let all these people go and we just ran out of money and all these self-sabotage things.

Not conscious then.

I think so totally subconscious to just be a protective factor to stop the perceived pain from happening.

And you've seen that happen? Oh yeah.

Yeah. I've probably experienced it myself if I'm honest with myself. Yeah. Um, I call it throwing a grenade in the meeting, right?

Okay.

Hey, let's burn this place down and see how we can rebuild it because I'm afraid what if it really works? Hmm. And when I overcame that, is when the company took off and it was me holding back the company for fear. What if I'm really not good at this? So what I'm going to do is I'm just going to keep everything in a state of chaos and a little bit extra control that I can exert. So that way, you know, it's not me that's the problem, right? When it really is. Yeah.

You know, I— if it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't have believed it. I came to the realization a few years ago that I was intentionally not making more money than, than I was, or that I should have been, because I didn't want the conflict around the money with my spouse. And it was, it was totally subconscious. I couldn't point to any one behavior that was causing it. But, you know, the idea that just realizing that I was avoiding the conflict by removing the problem, right? How crazy is that? I mean, you talk about clinical, that's nuts. Why would you do that? Yeah. And I guess that's what I'm hoping that people gain from listening to stories like yours is that One, you're not alone. We've all been there. Two, to really start a process of self-evaluation. Like, why, why do I do the things that I do? Why do I feel the way that I do? And dig into that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's critical, right? Because we as individuals have to continue growing if we're going to expect the business to grow. And then you also have to understand, I need to let somebody else manage this big machine, even though I got it started when it was just a wrench, right? But now it's so complex. Uh, and I'm also a big believer in, um, you know, simplifying. But as soon as you simplify, it's going to become complex again and you got to simplify again, complex again. And that's the cycle, right? What you can't do is get wrapped up in, I want to keep it simple because I'm afraid of it getting complex. I'm going to keep it. I hear this a lot. Oh, we don't want to add any new customers. You know, we do. We're happy where we're at. Says nobody, right? Except folks that are very fearful that if I take this next leap, what if it doesn't work? I'll just stay where I'm at. It's safe. And I'm not saying all businesses need to go gangbusters and do, you know, change the world and do all of that, right? But why stay in a state of stress and pressure when a little bit of extra growth can alleviate that?

Yeah, and to your point earlier you made that the pain of the change is, I mean, in my experience, it's always been less than the pain I was experiencing.

Yeah, yeah, typically is. Yeah. But the fear response is way stronger in that moment. That fear response is way stronger than any pain.

Well, it reminds me of the book The Big Leap. Have you read that?

I have not read that.

It's some Stanford psychologist. He's written multiple books, but that's one of them. And he talks about, he calls it an upper limit problem. When you get to that point, when you're going into unknown territory, how your, your mind and, and by proxy sometimes your body will start shutting down and sabotaging you, uh, which is, is what you're talking about, and, uh, how to get, get through that. And I think for me, um, it, it, it's gotten easier. The fear, the fear response doesn't necessarily, Wayne, uh, but it's, it's like, okay, I know what this is and I know how to handle it.

You know, the, the very extreme end of this is, um, suicide amongst entrepreneurs. And part of that is the fear of failure publicly, right? The fear of, you know, gosh, what if I am that person that's not successful and I've built this? Um, And not that I shouldn't say I'm fascinated by that. I, that's an area that I want to eventually spend a lot of time helping folks through that process, just because, um, it's already lonely being an entrepreneur, right? Um, and then you get your identity wrapped up into it. And then if we think about entrepreneurial love is similar parental love and you're you know, business dies and you don't really know how to grieve that. And so many therapists are like, but why are you grieving that? Right? It was a job. It's a business, move on. And so without the real understanding that no, it, this is like a child to that person and they have to grieve that process and create a structure of grieving around that. I find that very interesting.

It is. And it's compelling. I don't know, did I share the story of what started this? I didn't tell you about my client. Okay, so I had a client. This is probably 10 years ago. Had a successful business, was in his 50s, and it had grown. Way beyond what he had thought it would, or probably what he wanted it to be. And he just got tired of the grind. And so he wanted to hire a president to run his company. And he asked me to go on the interview. And we go to lunch, and this guy proceeds over the course of an hour to openly braggadociosly talk about his adultery. And we left the lunch and my client asked me, well, what did you think? And I said, well, if he treats his wife's relationship like that way, if he cheats on her, he's going to cheat on you. And my client hired him anyway. A year later, The president was arrested for trying to bribe a contract officer and proceeded to throw my client under the bus. And my client, I believe him, he said, I had no idea this was going on. And he didn't, you know, from my standpoint, he didn't need to. Not only was that not who he was, there was no reason for him to, right? He gets sentenced to El Reno State Penitentiary or Federal Penitentiary for, 2 years. The president, you know, being the first one to roll, got off, you know, didn't spend any time in jail. And then a month before his release, his scheduled release, he killed himself in prison. I never talked to him after he went to prison, so I don't know what was on his mind. But what I came away from that was He, you know, his wife was adamant that he didn't kill himself. And I'm like, "Yeah, but no one had a reason to kill him." I mean, it's a minimum security prison. It's not like there's gangs, you know? I mean, I think he couldn't face the consequences of that failure. And then I go back to his decision to hire this guy in the first place. And I didn't understand the pain that he was in. Right? Like, I'm so sick of running this business that I'm going to hire a known cheater to do the work for me. That's how— and, you know, I think that's what I'm wanting to get out there is just the discussion. Like, you're not alone. You need to talk to somebody and don't go down that path.

Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.