Playing for Change: Music with a Purpose | Peter Bunetta

First of all, they take you off the court if you're not scoring points. Gotta score. So in any business, if your sales are not happening, you're gonna have to close the store. So how do you get people in the store and what products are you selling? The quality. Why sell Naugahyde as real leather? You gotta have real goods. And if you know it, just know what you're selling.

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, famed musician and music producer Peter Bonetta. Peter, thank you for joining us.

Good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening, wherever you might be. Yes.

So I know there are a lot of interviews of you out there, so people are familiar with you and your story, but looking back on when you started this journey, is there something maybe that you would want to highlight in the last 40 years or so?

Oh yeah, there was a pivotal moment. When I was like all young musicians who saw Ed Sullivan. I'm, I'm 73. I've been at this since I saw the Beatles on Ed Sullivan that fateful night, and I decided I wanted a band as well.

Were you in that audience?

I wasn't in the audience. I was sitting in my— I lived with my grandparents and we were watching Ed Sullivan, and I had been taking drum lessons and And that's when I decided that, okay, we have to— I have to do this with other people, and I want to do that.

Did you make your grandparents crazy? I mean, I know with the drum set—

no, I mean, that they were very supportive, and I, I miss them. I lost them a long time ago when I was 21, but my grandmother— my grandfather was, uh, They were of Italian descent. They were both from Sicily, and, uh, they came here. My grandfather was a fruit and vegetable guy and made enough money to buy a few apartment buildings, and we lived in them. And my grandmother rented a room, rented apartment to a drum teacher next door, and he took off— she took off money from the rent to give me drum lessons.

Nice.

And they set up the drums downstairs next to the furnace where my grandfather made the, uh, the heat for the buildings. Yes. So they loved what I was doing. I would watch, you know, Lawrence Welk with my grandmother and play on the couch with spoons and knives or whatever I could get my hands on that would bang against the corner of the couch. And then they got me a drum set and, and then I, you know, they loved it. No one ever said stop.

Well, if you're like most percussionists I've known through the years, you're always moving, you're always tapping, you're always—

Yeah, I was, I was. And sometimes I still do at this point because I still play and my wife says, stop that. So it never stops. You're right. But at an early age, I wanted to do this and I became focused on getting work. So I worked all the local communion parties, birthday parties, and, uh, two of my friends, one played accordion and, uh, his name was Andre Ferrulo and, uh, and the other was a guy named Henry Fragassi. And the three of us played and then we incorporated Mike Morato and we were off. Eventually Andre left. I think he's a doctor now. That's what I heard. I haven't talked to him in a billion years. Uh, Henry's no longer with us. Mike is no longer with us, but we had a very successful grammar school band. We were making $5 each, then $10 each, then $15 each. And as we went through high school, we became the band that everybody knew. And I, I really made a great living in high school. I was making at least $300 to $400 a week.

That was a lot of money.

That was a lot of money. And And so I got the taste of what it was, and I was always out there hustling for work.

So when did you have to start learning the business of music?

When I, uh, when I started to, um, further on down the road, as I wanted to get into the recording end of the business and start becoming a player in the studio and chasing a record deal. You know, the glitter of just getting a deal is all you want. You just want to get a record deal and make an album and go on tour. But after I had, um, 3 albums with a band that I was in called Kraken on Warner Brothers— we did 3 albums, we toured with everyone, it was great— nothing was happening in terms of We didn't have hits. And, uh, my father, who I didn't have a close relationship with growing up— he had left when I was about a month old, and then I connected with him— but, uh, he came to visit, and he was really— he's a very smart guy. Great— not great dad, but a really smart guy. And, uh, and he said to me he felt something, because I felt something, that the band we might have hit a roadblock. We had toured, we had put 3 records out and nothing. We hadn't increased our, our, uh, finances, personal or collective. And my father said, listen, you don't want to be a 40-year-old drummer or a 40-year-old male model. It's just not a good look. I think you should learn your business if you're going to be in this. You should learn it. And my brother was also in the business, and, uh, my brother was a manager, and, uh, he was an agent first, and before that he was a road manager, before that he was a road guy. And he upped his own, um, profile and his knowledge. And so through Al, I, uh, I started to look at the business differently. And, and he made me aware of publishing and he made me aware of deal, you know, what a deal consists of, producer royalties and band royalties and, and, and publishing income. Right. And so after the band broke up, I decided to move to L.A. and get into the studio business. And I started playing on different people's records, and I started watching what producers did. And, uh, I knew what they did because they— we had great producers of our, our band. I was— we had Russ Titleman produce our record, who's one of the great producers of all time. Did Eric Clapton, Stevie Winwood, the list goes on and on. Ricky Lee Jones. He was a Warner Brothers staff producer. And, uh, and then we had Michael Omartian who produced our records, who was, who produced Christopher Cross, played on Asia, was the keyboard player of Asia, Billy Dan's records, and, and many, many more produced Donna Summer, wrote, worked hard for the money. Brilliant, brilliant musician. And, uh, so I watched them and watched everybody and, and I figured, you know what, I don't want to be the one waiting for the call. I'd like to be the one making the phone call. Yeah. And so my partner in, in the band who had moved down from San Francisco where we had been living for years, we moved to LA and we jumped into the business. And then a friend of ours who I had, uh, become very close with, we had become close with on one of my stops in Woodstock, New York, where I lived for a bunch of years, his name was Robbie Dupree. And, uh, we got a little money And we made a demo, 3 songs, and one of those songs is a record called Steal Away, which is still a big record after 45 years. And, uh, we jumped in and we became producers, and then we started learning about the budgets, our points, our royalties, publishing, writing songs. And once we learned that, there was no turning back. Because you see the, uh, importance of, uh, quantifying all the work that you put into learning music and how you can really come full circle if you understand the mechanics of the business. And publishing is real lifeblood of, of, of the industry.

So let me ask you a question. You're, you're in your 30s at that point?

At that point, I was 19. Let's see, that was 1979, so I was 28. Okay. And, uh, yeah, I mean, it's just turning the corner.

Was that a difficult transition to go from a musician to a producer where you weren't, uh, performing?

Not at all, because Again, part of all of it is to see how many plates you can keep spinning without going crazy. So I, I always managed to play live while I was producing. I was also involved in a band called Billy and the Beaters. We had a song called— at this— Billy had recorded a song called At This Moment, which became a massive hit. And so I was playing with that band as well as producing during the day and, and during the week. And on weekends, uh, I could play with Billy and the Beatles. So I always satiated the appetite for live playing, which I think is very important because you feel— you can feel audience response.

Did you sleep during this time? Of course you were—

I was— I got some sleep, but I was hustling, you know. I, I was non-stop. And, uh, because right after Robbie became a hit, we started getting people. The next record we had was Matthew Wilder, Ain't Nothing Gonna Break My Stride. And that was huge. And we became aware that we had created a production company, which is again the evolution of learning the business. So in the job, we couldn't— there was no one who was going to call us to produce records unless we put points on the board. And we did with Steal Away, but still wasn't established enough in one song, one radio song. By the way, we had two on that record called— one was called, uh, Hot Ride Hearts was the other one.

Okay.

But after that, uh, I had known, uh, Matthew Wilder from my days in Boston at college. And when he came out to LA, we signed him to a production deal and we became co-publishers of everything he wrote as part of the production deal. And that's where the business really started to take shape, where we saw the publishing income from a major, major hit song like Break My Stride, which today— now I've since sold my portion of it after 29 years, but it was a very important element in my, uh, business acumen of, okay, now I can see owning a piece of a song, what that can generate. Um, especially if it's a major song like Break My Stride was.

Was there any point during that journey where financially you, you struggled? Like, we're, we're like, I don't, I don't know if we're gonna make it.

Um, well, it's funny you say that. When— be right before Break My Stride. Yeah, we had signed a production deal with Elektra Records based on Robbie Dupree's success at Elektra, the single, the two singles. Because another side of the business that is really important to know in any business, doesn't matter, relationships, um, they're key. How you establish your relationships, the authenticity of the relationship, not just You know, politicking. Yeah. But having authentic— because my mantra from early on was, it's not who I know, it's who I avoid that would make me more successful. Because so many people come at you when you do have a hit. Yes. That you have to be very careful on not just taking any deal or partnering with people that you really don't vet. You have to vet, right? And the vetting comes with your gut. For me, I make the mistake— why don't— it's not a mistake because I've done it my whole life. I sign deals with my heart. If I don't like the person, I can't work with them. Yeah. There have been instances throughout my career, but going back to your initial question, we got signed to a production deal, and I— my wife was pregnant with our first son, Julian. And we had just bought a house, okay? And they dropped us. The regime changed at Elektra between when we got signed, so, uh, the new regime just didn't honor the production deal.

Did they just figure you couldn't— didn't have enough money to sue them, or—

Well, it wasn't even about that. The deal was in play. It wasn't signed yet. Okay, okay. So it was in that funny period.

Okay.

We were just out, but the excitement was there because, wow, we've got this deal, uh, and now I'm having a, a baby and we, we've got this house. And so yeah, things didn't feel good. You know, you're, you're going up Everest on rollerblades at that point. You, you have the wrong shoes on and And, uh, and so we had this song called Break My Stride, and nobody wanted it. Everybody said it was the worst song, which made things even worse. Clive Davis threw it back at us and said, this is the worst song I've ever heard. Really? Every record company, nobody wanted except one little record company, a dear friend of mine who's no longer with us named Stewart Love. Worked at a little label called— oh, I'm just blank on it— Private Eye.

Okay.

Yeah, that felt good to get that one out. Yes, uh, Private Eye. And with that one little label, we hit a jackpot, and it saved— it saved the net. It gave us the next vine to go and hold on to, right? And it was solid. It wasn't Greased, you know. It wasn't the slippery slope. And with that record, then another record came, then another record came, and then we just started getting work. It led to Lauren Wood. We did a song on the Pretty Woman soundtrack. We did two, but Fallen was huge. And, um, then we had The Temptations. We did a, a movie, and then The Temptations asked us from the movie track to do a whole album. That got us into Motown where Smokey Robinson heard it, and we did the whole Smokey Robinson record where we won a— Smokey won a Grammy, and, uh, and it just started rolling from there. Kenny G, Michael Bolton, Soul Provider, um, it just kept— then people were calling us at that time.

So is it just the success, or, or what else do you attribute Well, I attribute it to back to—

yeah, first of all, first of all, you have to— they take you off the court if you're not scoring points. Okay, you gotta get— you gotta score. So in any business, if your sales are not happening, you're gonna have to close the store, right? You have to. So how do you get people in the store, and what products are you selling? The quality. Why sell Naga Hide as real leather? You gotta have, you gotta have real goods. And if you know it, just know what you're selling. I knew what we wanted. We wanted great songs. Well, at the time, it's all you did have. You had great singers and great songs. There was no Pro Tools. There was no, um, it was all analog. It was musicians together. It was very, very, um, formidable. You, you, it It had a place, and it's, it's been the history until the digital revolution. It was, you know, there was no fixing the vocals with a machine. You had to sing, right? So we just tried to find great songs, and we were always working with people who could sing, whether it was— we had such a wide palette, from Judy Collins I worked with John Prine. I worked with the great Steve Goodman. You know, the list goes on of great singers and artists, real artists. So once it got rolling, we would just— you know, you had to be smart with, uh, my wife is very smart. My wife, you know, I just, just— she took care of the finances. I mean, the investing. And, uh, and she's very property conscious and, and land. So, you know, we would buy— we, we moved like 6 times to keep upgrading our position as our children got older. And, um, real estate was really good for us. So I know people that have made a lot more than I have and have nothing to show for it because remember, along the way there's a lot of landmines out there and One of them is, and it doesn't matter what the industry is, but in our industry, you equate it with ours because it's rock and roll. But, you know, drugs along the way. I have so many friends that have, you know, spent their rewards in places that there were no returns. And so I was pretty lucky that way. I wasn't addicted to anything except making music. Yeah. And, uh, and so, you know, at this age now, I don't— I enjoy it. And now my children are in it, and, uh, we've built a family business out of it. And I've tried to give them the foundation and understanding, and they, they've surpassed what I could have ever dreamed of, uh, in terms of, um, working with the new technology and the new business.

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Well, let's talk about that for a minute. So, uh, you know, the whole idea of family businesses is kind of, uh, antiquated. Uh, you know, there's not a lot of, uh, businesses that pass on from generation to generation anymore. Did you, did you push your children to be in the business?

Well, it's so funny. Our environment, their environment, our environment was all about music. My wife was like real accommodating when I had so many people. I was all my wild, crazy, harebrained ideas of acts that lived with us. And I would just, you know, chase our dreams together. Like, if I had bands from England stay with us, I had rappers, I had reggae bands. So my kids lived in an environment with a lot of, you know, I call it the combination dreamers, riverboat gamblers. I was the riverboat gambler and we were all the dreamers. And, uh, so my kids saw this energy. They saw their dad being an 11-year-old, you know, with— and their wife gave us a lot of room and supported the idea. And the kids would come to the studio with me. They saw great musicians playing. They became musicians and studied music. And I never I never pushed them into it. It was just what they grew up in, and they loved it. They were drawn to it. And but they saw— I think they saw the reality of it in a lot of ways, because, uh, there were instances where they saw me getting, um, fired from a production, right, for reasons that I thought were politically wrong, or they, you know, where it was just— I never played the full game of the music business. I didn't, uh, I never worked for a record company. I was always independent, right? I was asked, I was asked, but I, I thought independence suited my personality better. And, uh, you know, there was disappointment, uh, and they, they saw me go through the ups and downs. They saw me not get out of bed for 3 weeks because, you know, the world had collapsed. My world collapsed. But, you know, it's just part of the landscape that we lived on, you know. It was, uh, so we didn't have real 8, you know, 9-to-5 jobs in our house.

So they went in with their eyes wide open.

They, they wide, wide open. And their uncle was a manager and a very successful business guy in the music business. And they saw a joy, you know, it was like we were in the joy business. We weren't in a bad business. Yeah, we had fun. They, they lived in a great neighborhood. Um, I was— I didn't miss much. I, I was at every Little League game, basketball game, school functions. I participated, but I never chose to die on the music business hill.

You were an excellent father.

I tried to be, you know. I tried to, uh, do what I felt was necessary for my own sanity while I was chasing, um, a business that was, um, a slippery slope. You know, climbing the slippery slope. And you really have to know, you got to have the footwork, you got to have the gulliver to take rejection, to believe what you have is really worth chasing. And you also have to know when to let it go and realize, okay, there's so many people on the team to make a hit record. That someone else can fumble at the 10. Yeah. In the red zone. You're in the red zone. It's right there. The record signed. We got the deal. It's at radio and it dies at number 50. Yeah, that's not my fault. Some of it. I mean, you know, you can't pinpoint what went wrong, but if it got to 50, why couldn't it get to 20?

So we were talking before we came on about balancing the creative passion and the money aspect. And you said that you had decided to remain independent. I assume that had to do with your creative independence.

No question. No question. I mean, I've done— I've seen too many people die on the vine when they took a job with a check every Friday.

So talk about that personally, like balancing your passion with the profits or the money? How do you go through that process of deciding what to work on, what not to work on?

Well, it's just, again, it's like playing blackjack or playing poker. You know, okay, I'm going to hold these and I'm going to throw these down and hope to get better cards. It's a gamble. You don't play poker as a team. Individual, right? And it's your gut and it's luck. And when it's a subjective product, all those things are in the equation. Yes, it's just your gut and how much do you want to, uh, put your head in the guillotine and hope that the, the lever stays and it doesn't come down and chop your head off that week or that day or that month. And you just— it's instincts. Um, and that's— I made it, you know, I've chosen, or I've tried to tell acts that I've worked with. I can— I won't name things, but I had an amazing deal. I had made— I made an amazing record on my own with a— this country group And, uh, I went to shop it in Nashville, right? Everybody loved it. Two people that I respect very much loved it, loved it. And other labels did. The group wanted to go with— I wanted to go with someone else because I knew we'd be better off there, right? They went with the other company for $40,000 more than my people were offering. Yeah, and bad choice because in the end I got fired. They brought in someone else and then they removed someone from the group and the group never was heard of again. Yeah, I'm feeling in my gut, I know we could have gone with my guys and gotten much more distance on that tank of the gas that was involved with the, the other label. Um, I couldn't do anything because I didn't have that power. It wasn't a production deal, it was just me signing a personal thing with the group. Uh, and they had the last day. They were, they were also underage, so parent— parents had to say. And that's something that in, in any industry you have to really acquiesce when Someone's not of the age to sign a contract, their parents. And you know what? They don't know the business.

What do they call those parent managers?

Yeah. Oh, well, this was a dadager. This was a dadager. But ultimately, you know, you have to quickly, just like in a game, you have to quickly— that defeat is gone, let's go to the next one. And I'm, I'm not gonna— it did feel— it hurt because I put a lot— sure, I put a lot of work into it, but it prepares you for what the next event is because this is what you've chosen. There was no way I was going to get it. What kind of job was I looking for? I wasn't looking for any other job. I, I just knew that this is who I am. I think that's the real thing in any business, you got to really have those conversations. The hardest conversation you'll ever have is with yourself. And you have to know that this is where I want to be, and I will outwork myself to make sure I get the best shot at this opportunity. And that— that's— they don't teach that at Harvard. I don't know where they teach that. That's a personal—

the streets.

The street. Exactly. The hustle. The understanding of when rent is due, when food— you open the refrigerator and there's something to eat. And, um, also, you're either going to take mass transit or you're going to have your own car. And to me, that was never— I wasn't about— I was never about— I didn't really care about car model. I was never— it was more from the internal versus the external. And I would recommend anyone to really do the work from the inside out, not the outside in. Doesn't matter nowadays, the playing field is good. You don't need a big office anymore. You don't need— true— like lavish receptionists and all. It's— that's— those days are over because you can do it from home quickly. People are making records We make— we have studios. We have all our studios on our properties, and, uh, we don't have elaborate offices. People sit with laptops across from each other. They congregate, they talk, and there's no separation with, you know, little walls. So it's a different world now. It's a completely different world. And, and, um, All I can say is product is your, your destination. What is it that you're trying to make? We try to make great music and deliver it with, with artists that are just, you know, the best, because it's crowded now. I mean, there's 60,000 records a week being released. Yeah. I mean, some of us— I can't even keep track, but I don't I don't look at those things. We don't look at those numbers. They're not— they don't mean anything to us. We just know what we have to do. And, and so that's all we have control of. And I think so.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, like anything, if you're in a race, the minute you look to the side, you're going to lose that tenth of a second. As the great Seinfeld episode— not episode, but it was the Olympics. You know, the difference between gold and silver. It's like here, here. Yeah, you know. Yeah, it's— I'm always amazed when I go to, uh, when I go to these, uh, you know, these farmers markets. Everybody's selling the same thing next to each other. Why do I buy oranges from that guy and not that guy? They're right next door to each other. There's something has to happen. The way they have the signs, the way the bags are, the way they— one uses Venmo, the other just takes cash. You know, it's just so many variables of everybody does it differently. So I can't— I, I just have to look at the way we do it and hope that people feel it and hear it because those combinations are deadly, you know, in our industry.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. So I'm going to ask you a question you probably don't want to answer.

Go ahead.

Bands that you have not played for or had anything to do with the production, What are some of your favorites?

Bands that I haven't played with or had nothing to do with production? Oh, the greatest, you know. Well, I'm friends with, you know, I'm very close friends with guys in Elton John's band. Davy, Davy Johnstone, who's one of the great, great guitar players of many generations, who's been with Elton for 50 years. Um, I would have loved to play with Elton John. Or been a part of those records. Those are just classics, you know. There's so many.

That's why I didn't ask you to, to name one.

So yeah, there's a classic, you know, the— there's great music. I've, I've drawn from so much of it, and, uh, I can only say that, you know, that I'm a product of listening. I listen to everything. And, uh, even today, you know, my children, my boys are, uh, you know, we're involved with so many great records. Uh, my son Julian has written and produced people right now, you know, out there as Teddy Swims, Sabrina Carpenter, Thomas Rhett. He developed and he wrote And our writers too. We have a team of 15 writer-producers in the publishing company, and they have been responsible for One Direction, 44 of their songs, some of the best songs. Niall's records, solo records, Harry's first solo record, Little Big Town. There's so much music, and I stand by all their music. Because I can listen.

What do you gravitate to as a genre?

I'm all over the place. I love great songwriters like John Prine, and I listen to, um, the people I've just mentioned. I love great pop music. I love Bruno Mars, uh, I think he's amazing. I love Lady Gaga's stuff. I love Adele's stuff. Um, I— we, we've got some great young talent that's coming out out next year. Uh, there's a young kid named Obed Padilla. He's, uh, Mexican-American. Uh, he's amazing. Uh, I'm so excited about that. There's— I just— I'm very contemporary. And plus, I listen to all the classics, whether it's Miles Davis, if it's the— if it's the Stones, if it's the Beatles. Um, if it's again Elton, if it's Cat Stevens, if it's doo-wop, I love music. I love the narrative, the lyric, and I love great melody. So I listen to, you know, all the Motown records that I— that I never get tired of. Great music. I just produced, co-produced a young writer we have named Mags Duvall, and hopefully that'll come out next year. I'm involved in a musical. Uh, we'll go do a production— a producer's workshop in November in New York. It's based on music like from the '80s, and basically we wrote it in the '80s. We wrote it in 1985, '86, '87. I can't remember the year. But it's still drawing attention and energy. Um, so I just lived it, you know. I've been privileged to live this life of songs. Uh, Robbie Dupree still makes— well, he— we made a few records up until a few years ago that people can find. Uh, I still play with Robbie when he wanted to play music. Um, I have a group called Playing for Change.

Well, that's, that's what I wanted to ask you about. Uh, I didn't want to miss that plug.

So tell us about that. Playing for Change was started 22 years ago by a guy who was an engineer of mine, and we met on a project, and he had played me this stuff he was working on. He would go film street musicians in New York and in LA. And anyway, it turned into becoming— we've built 22 schools around the world. For music and art. I traveled for 10 years around the world, put a band together. There's videos all over the internet playing for change. We take great songs. Playing for Change does not waste the great song. First one we did was Stand By Me, and it went viral, and it became a massive viral hit. And we had a documentary about Playing for Change that was well received at the Tribeca Film Festival and others. And I just got back from— I did this year, I did Byron Bay in Australia, the festival there, and Tokyo. I've been around the world many times with the band, and it's something like, you know, you said, do you still play? Yeah, I love playing, and I get to see music from everywhere. Uh, yeah, and it's, it's pretty powerful ingredient when you see, uh, people from different countries singing Hotel California and they've— they lived in a, in a village, uh, in, you know, uh, somewhere in, uh, Congo, right? You know, the power of it. And that, that fuels me. I'm making a Congolese record as we speak. I'm trying to do a little EP of some of that music. But, you know, our family business, the boys— Damon, my son Damon is, I think, a brilliant business mind, and, and he's a musician as well. His vision of what the future has become in music, he's right on the pulse of it. They make adjustments for all the delivery of how it's, you know, sold and And it still comes down to artist and song. So I feel that, um, the guys have now fortified themselves with all the foundational tools that might increase your chances of success. So we have a great staff. Everybody's really smart young people. They love music. They've got character, they've got integrity. They're, they're kind, they're smart. And they understand the importance of knowing what you're selling. And so I've learned a lot from these young guys and girls, and I'm sure I'll continue to. And hopefully they learn something from me because they keep me around.

Well, all they have to do is listen because you have plenty of wisdom.

They give me love every day, and I know when to stay away and let them run the ball. Just keep running the ball. And, you know, we don't turn it over much. We might have not have success with everything we put out, but we do know how to score. And that's important because if you've never scored, frustration sets in. And people that start a business and can't get it off the ground, after a while, you know, that there's Time constraints. I mean, you only got so much money to fuel a business until you got to make some money before it can— Yeah, you got to, you know, you get your loan, you borrowed from people, however you do it. I told my sons when we started, let's keep $20,000 in the bank account all the time. Let's just never get below that. So we could take people out for breakfast, lunch, or dinner. We can buy some upgrades of equipment and we'll just keep hustling. And that's what we did in the early days. You know, I, my son got him a publishing deal at Warner, so that gave him income. That was active income, right? And that's really important because that set his sights and gave him an understanding of what it feels like to be paid. For music. And right from there, he ran the— he ran it, man. He— there was no one that would ever— I always say this to people when they ask about, you know, what's your company, what's it— and I see, you know, there's a bunch of talented kids. No one will outwork them. They might work as hard, but no one is going to outwork our team. They really go do the job. They go network. They go understand the importance of taking someone out for a dinner and just the social aspect of networking. And again, not to politicize it, but to start relationships that really are important, whether it's with the major labels or the— now in the digital world, the people that run the Apple Playlists and the Spotifys and the Amazons and all the different portals that sell music. And, and, and just knowing the, the promoters of festivals, managers of artists, your whole— what my dad said to me way, way back, know your business. And the music business is growing and growing and growing because A young kid sits in his bedroom and then puts it on, puts it out there, and before you know it, a record company sees that like 50 million kids are streaming that song, and then they sign. That's the new business, you know. It's, it's just the way it's turned out. I have learned about it. I don't have to actively do it because All the company does that. The guys do that. My sons know how to direct and empower everybody to grow and to, you know, go do it. You know, we can't hold your hand. I didn't hold my kids' hands along the way. They had to go out and feel it for themselves, and they did. And like I had to, like we all have to. But I think failure, it's a piece of this recipe for success. If you don't fail, if you never get knocked out in the ring or get punched in the face, you don't know what it feels like. And you got to be able to take that and come back and throw as well. And, uh, and I think, you know, the, the rejection— maybe call it not failure, but rejection is a better word. If you don't have the thick skin when people tell you no over and over again, and your gut's telling you, wait a minute, I know this is good, you, you're not going to survive it. And that goes for anything. That's any business. I mean, obviously, if you open up a restaurant, like, no one gets food poisoning in the— you get ear poisoned by bad music, right? But, you know, in other businesses, there's some serious guidelines. In our business, we're just making it up. We're just making it up, really. And I tell everybody that in the company, don't take yourself that seriously. Take your work seriously. And in that, you'll find the craft. You'll— it'll appear to you what the craft is, and then you just have to really get better at the craft, like, like a carpenter or a metal worker or a mechanic. Just get better at the craft and you'll have repeat business. You know, without that, there is no business. There is no business.

I love that. Peter, I thank you so much for your time and your wisdom for sharing that.

You're welcome.

Great listeners. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast. Uh, if you don't like Peter, uh, then, uh, I'm really sorry.

I'll go see my therapist.

Right. Until later, ta-ta for now.

And that's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers. And don't forget, Profit First for Creatives is live via Amazon. Link below.