Pricing Is Emotional | Jonathan Schüßler

Flying to 40 weddings, people underestimate how much work that means. Basically, you're flying in 2 days early, so if something's happening, like the weather's not good, uh, there's a strike going on at the airport, whatever, you can't miss this. So, right, if the wedding is on the Saturday, you're flying in on Thursday and you're flying back Sunday. So you're already gone half the week, right? Basically what that means is you could just stay 2 days more and fly to the next wedding just after.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Pittsburgh, California. I'm always confused when, uh, there are names of cities that, uh, are like adopted, stolen, I don't know. Uh, Pittsburgh is in Pennsylvania, not California. But anyway, thank you for listening. Joining me today, all the way across the pond, Jonathan Schuessler. Schuessler. Jonathan, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

And I really did practice, listeners. I really did. Jonathan Schussler. Yes. Okay. Anyway, welcome to the show, Jonathan.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah.

When you said stolen names, I just saw a map the other day of, like, German cities across the US and which ones you can find. There's, like, obviously the main ones. There's, like, 5 Berlins or something. But there's some crazy little towns that I would have never imagined to find on the map.

There might be a Heidelberg. I don't know.

I think there is. I'm pretty sure there is. Yeah.

Well, lots of Germans made their way.

Yeah.

My wife's family—

And we have loads of Americans here as well.

Yes. Very, very integrated, the two cultures. My wife's family came up through Galveston, Texas, back in the 19th century. Settled in Missouri. So my wife is half German, not immigrated recently, but in any case. So tell us a little bit about your CV. What's your professional experience?

Yeah. So basically after school, I went to uni. First, I had a year abroad. That's probably why my English is not sounding hopefully as much German as you think it would be. Um, but then I went to uni, started doing maths, um, switched to like teaching course to do maths and sports. But in all that, I didn't really feel like this is what I wanted to do in the end. And at the time, I was taking loads of pictures, and me and my mate, we would go out, we would ask all our friends to like model for us, do some creative shoots. And at some point I was like, maybe I want to do freelance, like being self-employed. Okay. And what could I do this with? And I thought, well, I really like taking pictures right now, so this could be an end for me to get into like the creative industry, right? So I started shooting some weddings Um, I did shoot my first wedding in 2017 when I was in London. Um, so that's a while ago now. Getting older, you can see it by the receding hairline. Yes. Um, I'm not old, but I'm, I'm not as old as I feel. I'm starting to lose some hair. It's all there. Um, no, and then I basically went into the wedding industry as like my getting like my start into freelancing. And when I decided to go in on this, basically all in pretty fast, I thought, okay, I think the future might be in video. So I started doing photo and video at the same time. And also my friend who was building his like web agency, I would start getting like his smaller clients and to maybe try to do a bit of B2B. Yeah, after a while I went part-time with the agency and built my own wedding business on the one side and was with the agency on the other side. At some point I left the agency, did my own B2B stuff on, on the other side, and then moved cities, had to move my whole business basically to a very different area of Germany, which was tough, which was really tough. Um, but yeah, now I have a very blooming wedding business on one side, uh, which is mainly doing photo, video at the same time on a wedding day. And then I have like local SEO and then also like trust-based video business content for companies on the other side.

Okay, so a couple of follow-up questions. Um, in Germany, I'm curious, or, or England for that matter, is, is the wedding industry as, uh, obnoxious as it is here in the States? I mean, like, I don't think it is. Okay, well, I mean, let me, let me clarify the obnoxious part. Like, I'm shocked how much money time and effort are put into weddings. And I didn't know if that was an American thing or just a female thing.

It's definitely an American thing. Okay. But we see trends from America drop over a few years later here. So we always have a very close eye on the American market and also the Australian market, because the Australian market, they always dictate the trends for the next season. Somehow they're the, uh, trendsetters, um, but they obviously have their season when it's our off-season, right? Um, since they're just like— right now they're mid-season, um, so everything we see there, which is like high-end wedding trends, that will come over for next season for us. Um, and where you guys— I, from what I see at least on social media video is a much bigger part of weddings in the US already, whereas right now we're in like the early adapter stage, I would say. Um, and money-wise, we're in a very, very different category. So I'm like entry-level luxury, which is between like $3,000 to $8,000, I would say, whereas In the US, I see loads of people charging like $10,000 to $30,000 for the service that I'm offering.

Yes, yes. So you should move.

Uh, no. Yeah, yeah, I should. I should.

No, I have, uh, you know, I, I see a lot of destination weddings and, and like, uh, videographers and photographers doing that niche. Have you done any destination weddings?

I've done some. Uh, I— the other year I shot a wedding on Sicily, which was very nice. Australian couple that I knew, and that was fun. And I've taken pics— like, my— I would say I'm trying to get most my clients to be local, even though I am pretty expensive to be a local photographer. Um, but I'm really focusing everything on that I can be within like an hour's reach of where I'm working for 3 out of 4 weekends of the month. That has 2 different reasons. Number 1, I kind of want to have a family at some point in the near future, and I think, um, I have loads— I, I'm really well connected within the photography space of the local area. And two of my closest co-workers, they do basically just destination weddings. They make more money than I do, but they're flying to 40 weddings a year, which is— I haven't seen one of them. I haven't seen her. She's like— I've met her 3 times over the past year, which was always at conferences, not here. She lives like 5 minutes down the road from me, but I haven't met her for a coffee in Heidelberg for over a year. So because of her travel, I couldn't live that way.

Yeah. And there's, there's, that's definitely saying something about being intentional about building the business that, that serves you, that, that is what you want, because it's, it's easy to not— well, you have to, you have to have some intent, uh, but if the intent is just, I want to do more, or I want to grow, it can easily take you places you don't want to be, right? So if you wanted to make more money and travel, uh, that would be the trade-off, and that's not what you want. And I, I think it's brilliant that you have, have recognized that and are being intentional, uh, about building a business that, that you want.

That's certainly wrong. I really like the adventures of going abroad for a wedding. It's fun, right? It's something special. It's a new place, right? And the creative process, we need that like newness somehow, right?

Yes.

I couldn't shoot the same venue every weekend, but Flying to 40 weddings, people underestimate how much work that means. Basically, you're flying in 2 days early, so if something's happening, like the weather's not good, uh, there's a strike going on at the airport, whatever, you can't miss this. So, right, if the, if the wedding is on the Saturday, you're flying in on Thursday and you're flying back Sunday, so you're already gone half the week. Right. Basically what that means is you could just stay 2 days more and fly to the next wedding just after. Sure. That means you're never home. I'm not sure how much she sees her partners. Like, it's both these— like, all the people that I know that are doing these, they're flying. They— I think they made a statistic, like, last conference we met, they had a statistic where she was like She slept at home this year less than like 60 times. Wow. Which is insane.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Well, but, but, but for some people, that may be what they want, right?

Yeah, um, they want to be around, right? They love just sitting at a cafe on the beach editing the pictures of last week's wedding.

Yeah. Okay, so I want to pivot now and, and talk about the, the B2B. You mentioned SEO. And I admit that I'm not really educated on this. What is the tie-in between video and SEO?

Basically, what I really like about SEO right now is it is heavily locally focused. So you cannot rank on Google or any of the LLMs for like big keywords if you're a small player. There's no way, right? The big players, they have big teams, they know what they're doing, they're outranking on everything. But if you're locally serving something, people usually type into Google, I need a plumber, emergency plumber Heidelberg, and that's what they're looking for. So And I have loads of pages on my website where I want to focus on building a brand where I can once a month fly out of the country for a wedding, but also have like 3 weddings, uh, 3 weekends a week where I get like 2 to 3 weddings just locally because I know they're tiring. But if I'm just driving half an hour there I might as well do one on Friday and one on Saturday, right? Because I'm dead on Sunday anyways, so I might as well do two, get double the money for that week. So I really need to focus on being the big fish in the small pond around my area. And that's what I first started, like, learning a little bit of SEO, and then realized Well, this has huge value to local businesses, but also local businesses need basic— basically everything else I do as well. And the only thing I'm not doing right now is websites. Like, I could do it after working in the agency, but I'm basically just— I need the SEO for the reach, and then I'm doing personalized and trust-building photo and video content, mainly testimonial videos, some image films, and some like personality-based portraits in the moment. I don't really like, right, basic business portraits. I think if I, if I, if I'm looking for like a private doctor in the area that is very specialized on like post-COVID I would say. So I'm looking for someone who's specialized in something that is very scarce. Um, loads of people need it, but they don't know, like, can we trust him? It's like a very unsure field. Um, and so what I, I'm looking for in this, if when I'm helping this, these customers, is First, I want to know how they're reaching their customers, and that begins with the customer itself. So what are the customers looking for if they don't know what they're searching for? So if they're saying, right, I am a post-COVID, um, yeah, I'm struggling with post-COVID in Heidelberg, right? There should be people on Reddit talking about this, or like anywhere, right? And we need to find out what wording are they using, and then we're finding out what are their problems. And if we write about their problems, they might find us. If they go to the website, what do they need to find? They need to find a person that they can talk to because they have a problem. They don't trust like stock footage. Everyone knows what stock footage looks like these days. So we need to have a picture of someone greeting people coming into the doctor's office. And then what's the next most important thing where they feel welcomed? Now they want to know, is this person trustworthy? So I'm filming clients that they had talking about what were they worried about before they got in contact with this doctor's office? And was this, like, fear rational, or did they just make it up in their head and actually it all worked out fine? And usually, right, it all worked out fine, right? So I'm trying to only work with companies or, uh, doctors or something that that have actually good product, that's really important. I think there's too many people doing stupid stuff that is not actually serving the customers. If they're serving the customers, it's so easy to do marketing for them. You just need to do it from the side of the customer.

So, so the, the agency that you worked for is not in Heidelberg? It was, it was where you lived before.

Okay.

Yeah. So you sound like you have a very good grasp and picked up, uh, some good marketing chops working for the agency. Um, I'm curious how, how you, uh, handle, or what, what, what your approach is to both, because those are really two distinct businesses, you know, the B2B marketing and then wedding videography. In your mind, how do those— how do you, how do you manage those two?

Um, basically most the clients that I work for in the B2B sense, they need exactly what I need as well. I'm also a localized business in the luxury market that is oversaturated, um, So I have loads of competitors that I need to beat on socials. I need to beat them on Google. Um, although I'm— I know we are somehow competing, but I feel like I'm always like, when someone's asking for help, I'm always helping them and the other way around, because it's, it's really— we're just co-workers and um, just all in our own little offices at home. Um, but I know that I can take all those measures that I'm doing B2B-wise for other people and just implementing them at my own services, right? And the other thing, the only thing that really changes is actually turning up at the events and like dressing up differently um, talking differently a little bit, you know. I'm, I'm more like a chameleon trying to fit into the wedding party as like an extra guest-ish.

If you, if you, if you had a preference as to which of those two parts of the business that— if you had to pick one, or if you wanted to do more of one than the other, which would you choose?

I don't think I could do one without the other. Interesting. Okay. I am pretty easily bored. I'm very interested in loads of things. Yes. I think this is my small superpower, that I'm always very interested and very try-hard at everything that I do.

Right.

I'm definitely doing more weddings. There's no, no doubt about that. Um, I might— I think B2B is a very tough space in the moment anyways. Um, we have like— there's definitely not as many business opportunities as there would be like 5, 10 years ago, especially as a videographer, because it felt like you had a camera, you knew how to do you need to press the right button, you're fine. Nowadays there's very— a lot less people that need video services because they tried it, it didn't really work, they're not doing it anymore. And also the recession as well.

Yeah, I don't— I don't know what you, you saw there in Germany, but I, I think in the US, what I saw is, uh, everybody did— everybody in, in business wanted video without really having any strategy or, or thought behind it. It was just like everybody was doing videos, so we're going to do video.

Yeah.

And then I, I also think that, uh, people got more comfortable with like do-it-yourself video. And I think that was like, people appreciated the authenticity of it. It wasn't as slick. But I think, you know, certain people like yourself and your customers that are professional, there's an expectation, right? Like if that, if that doctor is filming it with his phone, you know, talking into the camera or— no, they'd usually be down here and they'd be looking up their nose. You know, it's just not the right image. It doesn't set the right tone. It doesn't build the trust that you would expect from a physician. So I think what you're describing I'm gonna go ahead and make a leap and say that AI video and images are a similar thing in that it's the new thing and everybody's doing it 'cause they can. But I think there's going to be this whiplash where it's like, oh, this doesn't work and it's not authentic. And, and the, the reality as I see it is that the reason why most marketing fails is because it's, it's these random acts of marketing. It— there's not some overarching strategy to it. Like, what you described, um, I think is brilliant. And you, you have, um, you have an intent. It's not, I'm just going to come film some video, it's what specific problem am I solving, right? And I, I think also the fact that you took the problem you solved for yourself, uh, as being a luxury provider in a market and what you learned from that, leveraging it to provide to others, is also brilliant.

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You know, entrepreneurs at the end of the day solve problems, right? And the best way to do that is to solve a problem repeatedly, right? So you're not having to reinvent the wheel each time. And where best to do that than with a problem you solve for yourself and you're like, looking around like, surely someone else has got this problem, right?

I think it's easier to solve problems for someone else. It's 100% harder if it's about yourself. I really love when I'm talking about my problems to someone else, they say like half a sentence and the problem's solved. And I was like, I've been thinking about this for 3 weeks, why are you only telling me now? But it's so much easier to, to see like the meta level of something in someone else's work. And I feel like I always take something out of, for my, for my own work when I'm doing another B2B client that has a different problem.

Yeah.

But as you said, most the time I'm working with businesses that have trust issues. Like consultants in any kind, basically. So, um, and also like real estate agents, that's pretty huge part of, of my client base right now. Um, because they obviously, they have— I'm not sure how it's in the US, but here the word has like some little bit of you're not 100% sure that they are working in your best interest. Um, or there's something like, do you really think this is the best price we can get for this house? I— it's a very personal thing to sell your house through a real estate agent, and because you have a lot of memories connected to that house the real estate agent doesn't have that, and also the buyer doesn't have that.

And what— yeah, and, and, and I think structurally you are correct with real estate, just my opinion, because they only care 3% or whatever the commission is, right?

Yeah.

So like, you know, if looking at price, well, you know, come down $5,000, it's only $150 to them. It's $5,000 to you. And so yeah, I think there is a structural thing where you, you should ask your real estate agent, like, do you really have my best interest at heart? Because like, if they don't close the deal, they don't get paid, right? Yeah. Um, okay, so I want to ask a couple of follow-up questions on— we talked about your pricing in the, uh, wedding space. How do you handle your pricing in the B2B space.

So what did we talk about the pricing in the wedding space?

Well, you said you were in the high end, the luxury end, and you talked about what you price. But if you want to, if you want to go further on that, that's fine too.

All right. So basically the difference that I make is obviously for, for wedding in the wedding space, I want a price, and I'm even like considering changing a little bit again right now. I want to tell them as soon as possible a price that's going to be the final price. If I say one number, this is the number that's going to stick in their head, and I don't want any VAT to go on top. I don't want any travel to go on top. Right now I do have travel on top, but my— I'm thinking I thought about a long time, like years, and I think— and I thought, yeah, it's unfair to charge everyone the same amount even though I'm traveling different ways. But right now I'm thinking, actually, they just want to know how much it's cost— how much it costs, and also what I'm delivering to them. I don't need a chart of what costs what. In the B2B space, I obviously— I'm, I'm doing a little bit different to other people. I know a lot of other creatives, they charge depending on the size of the company, the where it's gonna be delivered. Um, I'm basically just have setting up a price that's gonna be good if I do it once, better if I do it multiple times. So I have— if I do a testimonial video, I have a package. One costs €2,000. If I do three, €5,000. There's nothing else. There's only these two options. Um, With SEO, it's a bit different because it really depends on, on the customer, where they want to go, what like budget they have, how long the contract's going to be. But usually I'm trying to just set a single price, and there I'll probably add like travel. But usually it's— I'm trying to make it as simple as possible. Yeah, for B2B clients, obviously without VAT, but—

Well, yeah, I mean, working with you guys, but I think, I think, yeah, with, with brides that have a budget for the wedding in mind, the predictability of knowing what the number is and that that's what the number is going to be is, is uber important. So yeah, slipped in a German word there. But the business-to-business is different. I was thinking about a client that I interviewed, and he was talking about when he was first starting out, he had a big company that asked him to propose, and he had a friend that was kind of an intermediary., or more of a mentor, and he came up with a price, and his mentor came back and said, "That's too low. If you give that amount to them, they're going to think that you're not legitimate and that they're not going to get quality work." And so, you know, he basically coached him on what to get the price to, and I think when you're dealing with pricing, I think you absolutely have to take that into account because your price dictates your value. So I'll go back to the 1970s when Mercedes-Benz— yes, I'm tying in a German company. Yes, this is what I do. I'm a brilliant host. Please don't try to replicate this at home. Mercedes-Benz was coming into the US market and they weren't getting much traction. And one year, I don't remember, it was in the early '70s, they essentially doubled their price. They didn't change the models, they just changed the pricing. And their sales shot up because they had positioned themselves as a luxury vehicle as opposed to just a common vehicle. And it makes no sense on the surface. It makes no rational sense for someone to do that. But when you're talking about pricing, only the customer can determine the value. And if you set the price too low, you're signaling to them that you're not worth it. And, you know, obviously, if you're dealing with a you know, Baja, you can't charge them the same thing that you'd be charging the local doctor. I mean, like, they're not going to even give you the time of day.

Yeah. And I think so I can mainly talk about because I tried more, I had like, I get like 300 inquiries a year for my wedding business. So I have more training data for this, I would say. Or more data that I actually thought about and like checked. There's definitely like— I know a colleague of mine, she used to have like— she had like 3-hour minimums at €999 and then like €300 per hour on top of that. That used to be her price, and she would get loads of people booking her for those 3 hours because the number that they remembered is, oh, she's under $1,000. So she would get loads of bookings for the people that set the bracket $0 to $1,000, and they're like, she's the best one out of those. Whereas she just raised her minimum to 4 hours and €1,300. Now she's in the €1,000 to €2,000 space with people setting their maximum to be like €1,500, €2,000. Now she got loads of bookings at around €1,900 because now people are seeing her to be between €1,000 and €2,000 and being one of the good ones, and, or like cheapest one in that one because people would offer them €1,600 and they were like, oh, we have this one for €1,300. Now she's the cheapest one in that bracket, right? Then there's a dead bracket, it's the €2,000 to €3,000 bracket because it's too expensive for the average people that want to not spend too much on their wedding. But it's not good enough for the expensive people, right? So if you charge between $2,000 to $3,000 per wedding in Germany, I feel like you're missing out on most the weddings because you're not— you're in a dead space.

Um, yeah, because think about it, you know, these, these brides, um, they, they have a budget And then they are talking to each other about, well, what did you spend? What did you spend? And so there's a lot of anchoring going on, right? And so when they come to you, they've already anchored their price. It's not— you can't do anything in most cases to go beyond that by providing more value. They don't care. Because that number is sacrosanct. That's the number I'm going to spend. And that's the fascinating thing about pricing to me. You being a former maths professor— sorry, tongue in cheek there.

Maths dropout, more like. Yes.

Okay. But, you know, we— and I'm an accountant by trade— like, we want the numbers to analytically make sense., right? We're about computing numbers and analyzing numbers and all of that. But when it comes to pricing, most of that goes out the window because it's not a rational decision.

No, I have some colleagues. I'm not going to drop their names.

Nobody knows them here. That's fine.

Go ahead. No, it's on the internet. At some point, the AI will be able to pick it up out of the podcast. Basically what they do, they just trial and error their prices every week. They have different pricing packages, usually like 3 to 4 at a time, and they differentiate like loads, like 2,000 per package. And they just, they're like, okay, this week I already got 2 clients. Let's just bump up the prices. And they try it. If it doesn't work, okay, they try a different package next week. And they can cost $4,000 this week, they can cost $6,000 next week, they can cost $7,000 the week after. Then they might go back to $5,000. They just have it feeling-based. They have different prices and people inquire them and they're like, we get married at this castle. They're like, nice. They already paid 60,000 for the venue alone. No food included. Right. Bump up the prices. And it works.

They get clients. Well, sure, absolutely. I mean, and that, that also speaks to like where their mindset is, is if they've got enough work booked, for the week.

Uh, oh, they didn't have any work booked at the time. They went from zero to everything in a year.

I, I was— you mentioned like they have two booked. If they're going to do the third, it's going to be at a lot higher price, right? Because of their capacity. And, and certainly that has to come into play in pricing. You know, they're— either it's actual capacity or, you know, like need for revenue, or, you know, just you're wanting to do it. Like, I don't like these people. I don't want to travel there to do— I don't like that venue. I've worked there, whatever. I mean, so what you need as the business owner absolutely can play into your pricing. But the point is that it doesn't really matter what you want. Or prefer, the customer is always going to dictate the pricing. I mean, that's just the way it is.

And I feel like most buying decisions are made unconsciously.

100%.

So the pricing is a very rational factor that most of the time doesn't factor in.

No, it's the— and, and there's data on this, uh, I can't reference any off the top of my head, but all, all buying decisions, even in business to business— now this is the where, where people get, get hung up— everybody makes decisions, uh, on purchasing emotionally, which is largely subconsciously. And then their brain comes over the top with the rationalizations to justify that emotional decision. Right. And even in a business-to-business, because you say, well, you're talking to the business owner and it's not an emotional decision. Absolutely. It's an emotional decision. Do they like Jonathan? Do they like his work? Do they trust him? Do they feel like he's going to do what he says he's going to do and provide value to me? And once that trust is there, that's their decision, not the pricing. So it's the pricing then just becomes a negotiation point, an anchor point. There may be some hard limitations like, I can't spend that much money. I don't have it. But it all depends upon how much they want what you're giving them.

Yeah. So if this was our, like, sign-on call right here, I've made some things correctly, and some things already failed miserably. One thing I already failed is I'm not dressing up to the occasion. I'm just here in a nice warm sweater because it's freezing outside. Yes. I should have went over there to my business coat hanger, which is legit stuff that I never wear privately, right? I'm always dressing up.

It's a costume.

Private glasses, right?

Oh, okay.

You look—

so, okay, this is how you see me most days. But I have smart business glasses. Yes. And then also I have a fancy-looking mic that's a little bit damaged here. Yes. Obviously I have a camera hung up at all times to make sure, because I'm selling video. Why should— why would I be able to sell video if my video looked shit, right?

Right.

Sorry for swearing. Like, if I swear away all those lights, turn on the room light. What's this? There's a guy that looked very home cozy with bad lighting. I know he sounds good. I'm not sure how to quickly change, like my inputs. But yeah, yeah, it's, it's a huge factor. If I'm selling good video, why would I not turn up like really, really cool in a video call, right? And this is way more important than the price that I'm going to say in the end. I'm going to turn my lights back on.

Now I'm curious, you know, this is an audio-only podcast, so they don't have the—

oh, sorry.

No, that's totally fine because my question to you is, is that— is there an actual window that that light is coming through or is that—

oh no, it's dark outside. Yeah, we got winter. It's 10 to 5 my time.

Okay. I thought maybe it was some type of filter that you were projecting because it's a cool image on the back of, you know, it looks, you know, but that's an actual—

I got a cool, like, this thing. It's like a torch that has a filter on it.

Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah.

Brilliant. Pretty cheap, but very cool backlit accessory. And then also I have another light on there that's usually lighting up my dark side a little bit. Um, but I had no time finding a second cable, so—

well, that's honestly why when we started this, I was like, I don't want to do video because that's a lot more work to get the production the way I want it. And so that's why I never—

hey, if you ever want to go to video, just send me a message. I'll send you which 3 cheap lights to get and what's the cheapest camera option for you to have a very cool looking setup.

I absolutely will.

I absolutely— I literally made like my— made a setup like this for my aunt. She's, um, I don't know the word in English.

Give it to us in German.

Maybe we'll— well, she is, um, she's a midwife.

Okay.

First, and then she's teaching them if they have struggles— I, I don't know how to put it— postpartum depression with milk.

Oh, lactation.

Yeah, but then also there could be like loads of different problems. Like the child could have problems, it could bite and stuff. So she's, she's teaching midwives about this. So she's, uh holding these online courses. And literally last week, I made like a setup for her in her price range, which was fun and stressful at the same time.

Yes. Jonathan, how do folks find you if they happen to listen to the show in Heidelberg and want to find you? What's the best way to do that?

You can find me nearly on all platforms. Um, I do have two different websites. First, jonathanschützler.com, and then the other one I'm not even like trying because it's just a bit weird. Um, but just search me up, you'll find basically all my links on Google. And even if you're not from Heidelberg and you need help with anything that I just mentioned, I'm happy to help. Or if you have any questions or I said something that is not true, please help me find the better answer.

I love that. Jonathan, thank you very much for your time. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear, and we'll get rid of Jonathan. Until next time, ta-ta for now.