Should Your Business Start a Podcast for Marketing? | John Tyreman

Podcasting is a very human, um, medium. As a listener, when you tune into podcasts, you're— you, you develop what I call a parasocial relationship with the host. You get to understand who they are. Maybe they bring in some stories and you feel like you get to know them on a more personal level, but they don't know you from Adam, right?

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative. The only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Houma, Louisiana. I may be mispronouncing that. It's not my fault. You guys speak a different language down there. As a matter of fact, rural Louisiana is the only place that I have traveled in the United States where I felt like I was in a different country. But in any case, thank you. For listening. Joining me today, John Tyerman of Red Cedar Marketing. John, welcome to the show.

Christian, thank you for having me. And just a quick shout out to that one listener in Houma, Louisiana. Thank you so much for listening as well.

Yes, it's H-O-U-M-A. It could be like French and Houma. I don't know. So John, tell the listeners a little bit about who you are, what Red Cedar Marketing does.

Sure. Yeah. Well, Red Cedar Marketing is a podcast marketing agency for experts and professional services firms. So I spent, you know, 10 years in the agency world, and I went out on my own. And I've got experience in podcasting and experience serving professional services firms. And so that's kind of the intersection of where I like to play today.

Mm-hmm. It's so— I'm guessing, like, podcast agencies like like yours are fairly new. I mean, like within the last 5 years or no? Is that— was that a thing 5 years ago?

So I think 5 years ago, that would be 2021 at this point. Wow. Podcasting was experiencing what I call the COVID boom. And that's when COVID hit, there was a lot of podcasts that entered the market and there was a lot of listeners that also were exposed to podcasts for the first time. Mm-hmm. Before that, it was very much a cottage industry. And I remember launching my first podcast in 2019, and we would record on a GoToMeeting platform.

Nice.

So like we would dial in on the phone.

You weren't using Skype, you know?

No, it was their competitor. And I believe they both kind of went to the wayside at this point.

Microsoft ate them, I'm sure.

Yeah, so, um, yeah, I think now the barrier to entry in terms of editing podcast audio and podcast video is really low. The technology has made it super easy. So I think that that's why you're seeing a lot of, um, new faces come into the industry. There's a lot of— there's an influx of folks from the video editing world, and so that's part of why there's a big push for video. Now I come from more of an audio background. So I played music in high school. And that's how I got into like recording and stuff. So, but I also come from like the marketing agency background. And I understand the importance of video and how that impacts what you can do marketing your show, not just producing your show.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

So did you answer my original question?

What was your original question? I feel like I was rambling.

What was— 5 years ago, uh, were agencies like yours in existence?

I think it was, uh, more of a cottage industry 5 years ago, but I think that COVID boom is what sparked it. And I think today there's a lot more out there, um, than there was 5 years ago.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a colleague in LA a couple of years ago, and he and his wife had formed an influencer agency, and so they repped different influencers to brands, et cetera. And he said, yeah, 3 years ago, this wasn't even a thing. Influencers just went out and got their own gigs. And I find it fascinating. So that was not AI, LLM driven. But I have— we had a group of 10 core clients come in last week for an advisory board meeting. It was a novel idea, actually suggested by one of our clients. And one of the big topics of conversation was the state of the industry, quote unquote, like, and that's, that's the creative industry. But it, you know, touched a lot on the videography and the audio and content creation and marketing and like, you know, all of those aspects of it. And, you know, I remember one guy came in and the first day he was like, I don't know what's going to happen. I feel like my, my job is going away. And by the time he left that conversation talking to these other creatives, he left going like, my mind is completely on fire about what the potential is. And, and so I, I guess my question to you is, do you look at the lay of the land and, and how it's changing, uh, with fear or, or opportunity, which, or both maybe?

I think that there is a big opportunity for podcasting as a medium, but also podcasting for experts and professional services firms because podcasting is a very human, um, medium. As a listener, when you tune into podcasts, you're— you, you develop what I call a parasocial relationship with the host. You get to understand who they are. Maybe they bring in some stories and you feel like you get to know them on a more personal level, but they don't know you from Adam. Right, right. Um, now I think podcasting in terms of its importance to— within like a marketing context for your business, it gives you a platform on which to showcase that personality, right? And I think that with video, it gives the— your audience a chance to match your face with your voice, right?

So even though that may be a bad experience for them to match my face— yes, sorry, go ahead.

Well, no, I was going to say, like, you know, in, like, I remember commuting into the office, and locally in DC, we had a radio show called Elliot in the Morning. And I remember, like, listening to that, and in my head, I'm forming, like, okay, this is what Elliot looks like, this is what Diane, the co-host, looks like. And then when I saw them for the first time, I was like, whoa, that is vastly different than what I thought. But I think, like, a similar effect happens in the business world when you put your face out there and your voice, and people are able to connect your face with your voice, there's this element of like, okay, now I know who that is, they're human. Um, you develop a little bit more of a connection, so you can build a little bit more trust at scale in that sense.

So, so you're, you're pro video, is that what I'm getting, or no, or is it just in certain circumstances?

Well, I, I did some research and I looked at business podcast hosts and I looked at business podcast listeners, and these are active business podcast listeners. And there was about 70 in that sample of listeners, and these folks were actually 3 times more likely to tune into podcasts in the car than at a computer.

Okay.

And so that tells me that while video may be great for discovery, Listeners will tune in to the audio, to audio, like, more regularly. So I like to advise my clients, video is great, invest in video, but not at the expense of the audio experience.

Yeah, I mean, it, it's so, so I, I had a guest recently on the show, uh, who is my, my age, maybe even a little older that is a lifetime voice actor, actually was an iconic voice actor. Lots of work with Disney and Crayola, big name brands. And it's interesting, part of the deal was I knew him personally. He lives locally, so we had met and socialized, but he's like, I want no video associated with me. I'm like, well, that's cool. I don't— we don't do, uh, uh, is an audio-only podcast, but he showed up on video and so, so we could have a normal conversation, right? I can see what he's— his facial expressions and all that. But from a marketing standpoint, his image does not show up on any of his stuff. Like, you go to his website, his LinkedIn profile, there's no face associated with it, which I found fascinating. What, what do you attribute that to? Like, is he just being a neurotic old man, or has he got something there?

No, I think it's his product is his voice, right? And then I think that that's a very unique situation where him showing his face might dilute the, the potency of the product that he provides, right? So I think in that instance, it makes sense to feature the audio assets more so than the visual assets. So I think that's why I like to look at it like case by case, like does video actually make sense? And I even wrote a blog post about this. It's like, you know, there are some cases where an audio-first show makes sense. And like one of those things is, are you comfortable being on video? And if you're not, then just have an audio podcast.

So going back to your research, um, so you're talking about, okay, business podcasts, are they B2B or are they B2C? Primarily, or did they make that distinction in the research?

So I pre-qualified a list of, I think it was over 400 shows, and they either provide a professional service or they target a professional services industry. So it's, it could be a podcast about construction, or it could be a podcast about accounting, or it could be an accounting firm that talks about—

who the hell would listen to a podcast about accounting? I'm sorry, go ahead. You'd be surprised that, um, I, I know actually the people that would listen to that. Yes, I'm sorry, I've met them.

But yeah, I mean, the, the accounting industry is huge. And then like accounting firms who target specific industries, like the podcasts about those industries. But the, the common thread is there's a, there's an element of professional services within these, um, this sample. So that's 400 of those podcasts and, um, I reached out to, uh, almost every single one of them. And that's this— that, that's the sample. So it spans from like marketing agencies, accounting firms, consulting firms, um, law offices, technology companies. Those are the kinds of firms that are represented in this sample.

Well, I, I guess the intent behind my question is, is that if the listener if the target audience of the podcast is B2B versus B2C, is there any— because you said they're 3 times more likely to listen to it in the car. Is there any distinction in the behavior whether they're B2B or B2C? Or if the data wasn't there, do you have any intuition around that?

I don't, I didn't really focus on that. My focus was more on B2B, and that's kind of the lens in which I'm looking through this. Um, there were some shows in the sample that, you know, talked about a specific industry. Like there was an, um, I think it was a technology company that focused exclusively on restaurants, and so their podcast was focused on the restaurant industry. And so that was a little bit different, right? So you could get people outside of that industry who might want to tune into that to hear about some of the food and menu options of these different, you know, establishments that he featured on the show. So there's some, um, podcasts, I think, that transcend just that B2B and then also kind of like weave into more of like a lifestyle type of show. That can attract outside listeners, but I don't think that's the core listener demographic that they're going after.

Yeah, but I guess my question is this, because I admittedly, I don't listen to podcasts. I've been producing two podcasts for almost two years. I still don't listen to podcasts. Uh, I don't know why, because I used to be a real big fan of talk radio. Uh, but for some, I guess because I'm not in the car very much anymore, I, I don't listen. Uh, I, I'm— I guess my question is, if, if I'm targeting a restaurant owner, uh, are they going to behave differently listening to podcasts than the, you know, uh, dishwasher at— that's listening to podcasts at that restaurant?

I don't know if I'm asking the question clear. Dishwasher is probably listening to podcasts while he's working. If he's listening to a podcast, right? Right. Um, and you know, maybe that business owner is listening to podcasts while he's doing, or she is doing mindless work at the end of the day, you know, or, um, those repetitive tasks. Or maybe they do have a long commute home and that's when they can put something on to help them figure out, you know, an accounting challenge or a marketing challenge or something like that. Um, but I do— I mean, business owners do listen to podcasts, and, you know, I A lot of the listeners in this sample, many of them are founders, business owners, and senior leadership positions.

How did you find the listeners? I'm curious, just like technically.

I did a bunch of outreach to my network, and it's a network that I've been building and maintaining relationships with folks for over 10 years now, just intentionally, just a little bit every week, every day. Um, but yeah, just reaching out to a bunch of folks, hey, do you listen to podcasts? And, you know, people who do listen to podcasts, they love to say that they listen to podcasts. And so, uh, you know, once I was able to find folks, people were definitely willing to give their perspective.

You mentioned your, your network, and I find that an interesting topic coming off of this meeting with our clients last week because One of the, um, realizations was with the disruption in the industries, like, it— a lot of the sand is shifting. Um, the agency model is largely broken. Uh, businesses are going direct and skipping, uh, agencies. Large production houses, uh, are doing business, uh, differently because they, they're having margin issues, the, the idea that relationship, uh, your network is even more important now. Would you agree or disagree with that statement?

Yeah, we've all heard that, that adage, your network is your net worth, and I think that's important no matter what aspect of business you're in. Now, a lot of listeners to this podcast, they're in, you know, creative agencies of their own. You know, maybe they're an SEO specialist host who went out on their own and is a solo consultant now, or a designer who, you know, found it easy to find a couple clients and now has a side gig that kind of started to grow, right? Um, so your network is really where you can make those connections, right? And when I— my story was I was, uh, in agencies for about 10 years, and then, uh, so I understood that business model. And so when I went out—

You were an employee of an agency? Okay.

Yep, for two different ones, and I launched podcasts at both of them. And, um, when I went out on my own, I found it easier— I found it, um, easier to— I was laid off, part of a round of layoffs. And so that was a pretty hard moment in my life, and I was kind of like the sole breadwinner in my house, right? So like, main source of income that went away. Crazy scary time. But I had built up a network to the point where it was easier for me to find leads for consulting work as a fractional marketing director than it was to find job interviews at the time. Mm-hmm. And so that's kind of what set me on this path, this entrepreneurial path. And, um, if it wasn't for my network, I wouldn't have been able to do that. And my life would've looked completely different today. But yeah, having those connections and investing in that over those years, I was able to make that transition a little bit less rocky. And so that was really kind of key to getting it off the ground. But then I think that was the key to the growth was a reinvestment in that network. About a year into my journey, I knew I needed to niche down and specialize. So at first I was like, I am a fractional marketing director for B2B companies. But then after specializing and narrowing down to podcasting for professional services firms, that's really when the growth took off.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Yeah, as you were discussing that, I was thinking about my network as a professional, and accountants don't socialize well. And there's often— and I see this in other professions too— there's also often, confrontational, uh, attitude that comes to it. Like, well, I, I can't help them because that's going to take something off my plate, or they're a competitor, you know, that kind of, that kind of thing. But, you know, I, I, I see creatives, uh, having to adapt. And, um, you know, where, like, you're, you're doing podcasting and maybe you see an opportunity with video and you're not real comfortable with some aspect of video, you know, post— oh yeah, post-production, whatever— that you're like, I could really take advantage of this opportunity if I had somebody that could do that. Um, and that's where that relationship and that network comes into play.

Yeah, 100%. Um, I'm reminded of, uh, when I was first getting into this, when I first narrowed down and specialized in podcasting, video was kind of like emerging as like, hey, we need— like, I need to figure this out. So I had won a client on kind of the premise that I'd be able to do this, and it was kind of like a crash course in like, okay, selling the work and learning how to do it afterwards. It happens, right? Yeah. But, you know, I figured it out, and then afterwards I was like, I need to find someone who knows how to do this too. And so I did some research on LinkedIn, and I found a guy, his name's Ryan, and he helps me out with video editing. And between the two of us, we've been able to manage a growing portfolio of shows. And yeah, and then now I'm at the point where I'm making that transition from sole proprietorship to S corp, bringing on my first W-2. And running my first payroll actually on Friday with the core group. So yeah, so that's kind of— sure, yeah, it's been an awesome experience so far. And it comes at a critical point. But yeah, so yeah, the importance of your network and going back, you know, finding Ryan was definitely key to me being able to free up more of my time to be able to market and sell the business to be able to get it to this point.

Yeah, and that also is something I talk a lot about on this show is not being limited to the skill set that you have or the experience that you have and approaching— and I think this is becoming much more important for creatives because, you know, the guy that says, okay, I'm a camera operator and that's all I do, I shoot video. Right, um, their opportunities are going to become fewer and fewer because that person that is running the shoot is going to say, hey, uh, can, can you run gaffer for us? And they're like, well, no, I just shoot video. And it's like, well, I need— I'm going to find somebody that can do both because— and I'll pay more to find someone that'll do both because I don't want to manage and I don't want to find and I don't want to make sure they show up a second body. And as the landscape changes, if you're just focusing on the skill set that you have and the experience you have, you're really limiting your opportunities. And it sounds like that's exactly what your experience is.

Yeah, if you're working too much in the business and not on the business, then you're not going to grow. You're just going to stay the same. And I think that's kind of like the core point here. I mean, unless you get— grow the business to the point where that's what you want. Um, but that's not the case for everybody.

Hey creatives, Delaina Ely here. I have a question for you. If you could pay yourself more, why aren't you doing it? For real. S corp is an option for you, the creative entrepreneur, to move your business to the next level to pay yourself more, and to cut your tax savings down. Yeah, less money to the IRS. We want that, right? So why haven't you done it yet? What's going on? The reality is you probably have 50,000 questions in your brain. You don't know which way is up and down, and you're still too busy to do all those things plus also create, right? Well, the good thing for you is that Core Group is actually the place to be to get that S corp election rolling. Yeah, we have an assessment. Let's see if you qualify. Come chat with me. Core Group, turning passion into profit.

So I want to go back to this. I'm honestly not asking this question for a commercial intent. I'm asking because I'm curious. How did you come to the decision that you needed to hire Core? Like, where was your head? That you said, I need something different?

Um, well, I think it was last year at this time when I was doing my taxes, um, myself in Intuit TurboTax, and it was just really painful. And so I think at that—

I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at you. I'm not. I'm sorry.

It was, and you know, it's not— it wasn't the best use of my time. And I know that I could do better. And, you know, I was at that point, I was still in kind of survival mode from, you know, after being laid off and needing to provide for my family. And taxes are one more thing that's keeping me from being able to do that financially. At least that's kind of where my mindset was in survival mode. And now I've grown it to the point where, you know, the pressure is a little bit Pressure's off a little bit. I've proven the business concept to the point that, um, I want to take it to the next level. And, um, I think that was over the course of this past year. Part of the criteria that I wanted to look for was, you know, number one, does— and if I was to work with an accounting firm, I want to make sure that they work with people like my business, right? So, um, That was one criteria. The other was that they have a podcast. Oh, because I just want to— I want to be able to align, you know, from a marketing philosophy standpoint. And I think so those were the two criteria for me.

Yeah, I think here's, here's the obstacle we see when, when we're talking to creatives. Is there's this knowledge that they have a problem, right? Everybody has taxes that they have to file, right? So everybody knows that that problem exists. But the third element of being able to— I'm going to do this. I got called out on it last week. By my clients, and it was awesome, and my team. And they were just making fun of me just mercilessly because I'd start to say something and then I'm like, well, let me back up and give you context. And Evan Bussier, longtime client of ours, he looks at me and he says, does it affect the validity of the statement? Something to that effect. Like, 'Can you just tell us without the backstory so that,' right? And I'm just like, 'Hmm, okay.' I said third. In order to have extreme revenue growth as defined by Victor Chen in his book, he said you have to have a customer. The second, the customer has to know they have a problem. And the third is they're willing to pay for the solution. Okay, so that's where I get to the third. We're back to where I was. The third element of paying for the solution. So every creative has to file taxes. They know they have a problem. Just are they willing to pay for the solution? I find that mindset shift of— it's no different than this conversation you had about like, I did the video, but I'm not really good at it. So I need to find someone to do it that I can partner with. Is really a bridge, a switch of going from just really having a job to trying to build a business. And not everybody arrives at that point and not everybody arrives at that point at the same length of time. Can you potentially speak to someone that And it doesn't have to be about accounting, but like, you know, the video editor, or as an example, speak to those creative entrepreneurs that are stuck in that space of survival mode. I've got to do everything myself. I can't afford to pay anybody to do anything. Talk about that transition for you in general. Yeah.

I was, uh, I was blessed that when I was in the agency world, I was exposed to the Entrepreneurial Operating System, EOS. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Are you kidding? I'm an evangelist. Yeah, preach, go on.

So, um, just being from the employee side, I knew that like as an entrepreneur I needed to get like structure around my business. And so like filling out like the Vision Traction organizer and then like what's your 10 10-year goal, what's your BHAG, all of those things. And then what's your quarterly rocks, breaking those down into smaller chunks, understanding that like operating principle, but then also understanding like, what is my goal for the business? So first of all, like, you know, going out on my own, it was very much survival is very much like, okay, can I keep the roof over my head? And so then once I was able to check that box, it's kind of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Right. And so once I'm like at the point now, like, okay, like basic needs are satisfied. Oh my God, we can actually like start saving money now. Like, this is fantastic. Um, and then, oh wow, I need to like, I'm bringing on more clients. I need to expand what I'm doing with, um, my 1099s. Oh my gosh, I'm at the point now where I need to get a W-2 to train them up because I've got processes in place. Right. And so like, I knew, I know that like, down the road, I want to build an asset that I'm able to potentially exit at some point. And so I know in order to do that, I need to build structure, I need to build process, I need to build enterprise value. And I need to essentially replace myself at some point down the line. And so that's like the North Star, and I'm working towards that goal so that eventually, I can exit. And in order to do that, I need to get, you know, I need to get legit about finances. And, um, this was the natural next step for in that progression.

Did you start with EOS out of the gate, or is that something you added on after?

Out of the gate, straight out of the gate.

Yeah, and that's very, uh, unique. The— I, I applaud you. I, I I mean, EOS is really designed for businesses that have, you know, you start usually implementing it when you have 4 to 5 employees, um, because it's based upon complexity. And, and so smaller businesses, uh, solopreneurs don't have the complexity that necessitates EOS. Like, in other words, if you don't have EOS, you're going to grow to a point And it doesn't have to be EOS. You've got to have some kind of process or system around how you run your business. Right. You're going to reach a point where you can't grow any further because you're too complicated. But the idea that you started out of the gate from that, and that's my point, is every business owner, even if it's a solopreneur, can benefit from EOS. I'm not selling anything here. I'm just my personal experience. It's critical. I mean, it just is life-changing, really.

Well, it's helpful to just like, because it can be so overwhelming, it's helpful to be able to zoom in and to zoom out. And I, and I think that's really— and then to be able to context switch between like putting the finance hat on and putting the operations hat on and the marketing hat and sales and all that, all that stuff. And then I've broken out like I've got a quarterly rock for each one of those like departments within my one-person business, right? Right.

I love that. Uh, have you any experience with Profit First?

I've just, uh, only recently been introduced to the concept. Um, I haven't had a chance to kind of digest what it's all about.

Yeah, I— if you're a process guy, you're going to love Profit First, um, for sure, because it's, it's, it's essentially the same concept of being able to give you a a system to manage your money so that it's intentional. Because I know, and I struggle with this, and I've got 17 employees, it's easy to get distracted. It's easy to go off on a rabbit trail as an entrepreneur and not, I don't want to say do the right things, but do the things you need to do. And having You said it brilliantly, having those processes, uh, even if it's just you, gives you the discipline to, to execute. And that's where a lot of entrepreneurs, not just creative entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs struggle.

Well, it becomes harder as your business grows to implement new processes. So if you're able to start and think that way, just be process-driven out of the gate. And I guess that's kind of the big takeaway for me here is for other creative entrepreneurs that are in kind of like their own, um, in their own business, think about it that way. Like, check out— like, there's a bunch of free resources out there and templates that you can find. Um, EOS, or I think Scaling Up, I think is another platform.

I would not recommend Scaling Up. I love it. It is for— it is for much larger businesses.

I wanted to provide an option there.

Well, no, that's fine. Did you, did you know that, uh, Vince, uh, uh, that wrote, um, good lord, hold on a second, what is his name, that wrote, uh, EOS?

Um, I said Gino Wickman.

Gino, it's an Italian name. Uh, Gino Wickman was a Scaling Up disciple. He was one of Vern Harnish's consultants, and he said, "You know, this is great, but there's a whole bunch of people that could use these principles in a much simpler way." And he created— as a matter of fact, there's still kind of some contention between the two of them, interestingly enough. I'm sorry, I interrupted. See what I did? I interrupted you and went down a rabbit trail. Bring us back, John, please help.

Well, where to next, Christian? I'm not really too sure. I think— please go ahead.

Okay, I can talk. My wife says I like to hear my own voice. As a matter of fact, she'll catch me watching a video or listening to an audio, and she's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I need to hear if the hook was right, or I want to, you know, listen to She's convinced I just like to watch myself. It's just not true. I guess the best question I can ask you is what in this journey of entrepreneurship did you do that you wish you— that you would not repeat, that you would not do it that way again? Some lesson learned. How about pricing? Anything there?

Have you changed—

have you changed the way you price your services over the 4 years?

Oh, of course. Oh my gosh, that's a great topic. Yeah, um, pricing is so critical, critical. And the way that I approach pricing is I, I never approach it from like an hourly billing rate, because as soon as you do that, you associate you, you handcuff yourself to the hours in a day. So I think that's just number one. And I think so many entrepreneurs—

So did you start doing hourly?

No, I've never done it.

Okay, never did it. Good, good.

No. And so I mean, I would factor in like, what do I need my billable rate to be? And how many hours do I think it would project to do this service, like on the early end? And I would do that to productize my service. And I'm a, I'm a big disciple of, um, 3-option pricing tables. So if like, if there was a new client who wanted to launch a podcast, I would always give them 3 different options and then have them kind of like self-choose their own journey. Um, but each one of those options includes different elements and would therefore kind of help to anchor and solidify the prices. It, in all three options would be viable. It just depends on, you know, how aggressively they would want to, you know, do they want to do a weekly show versus a twice-monthly show? Or do they want to like be aggressive with video clips? Or do they want to repurpose episodes into blog posts and things like that? So there's like the, you know, the Mac Daddy option, there's like the do-it-yourself option, and then there's the, hey, let's like the middle of the road option. And a lot of the times my clients will go with that middle one.

Do you, do you prefer that they choose the middle one?

It all depends. It all depends.

And, um, in other words, is that more profitable, more scalable for you than the other two options?

They all are profitable. Okay. It depends on what level, um, because, you know, there's some engagements that are higher revenue, lower margin, and that serves a purpose, right? Cash flow is good. There's some engagements that are a little bit lower revenue, higher profit, and that's good, right? You want margin in the mix. And so I think, you know, it all depends on what it is and what the engagement is. Now we have 3 different ways that we are generating revenue right now. Okay. So one of them is the agency services. So launching podcasts, doing, you know, production, ongoing production, ongoing marketing management for our clients. Right. Consulting services is another leg of the stool. And so this is, I work with existing business podcasters to do benchmarks, audits, you know, road mapping exercises. And then digital products is the other leg of the stool. And so those digital products are, I'm building a community for business podcasters called the Business Podcaster Collective. It may be live by the time that this podcast episode goes out. We're putting the final touches on it now, but that's going to be a place where I want to try to bring business podcasters together so we could learn from each other, so we could swap notes, um, give each other feedback on our shows, um, and things like that. So those are— I'm always trying to think of how can we serve the— our audience in different ways and testing out new products. And I think that this one is gonna, is gonna really work.

I love that idea because I left Yes, I'm referencing the same thing again. I left this client meeting of ours, this— I wouldn't call it a mastermind because it was not that. It was, we created a space, let's have a conversation. When we left, everybody was in agreement of the community aspect of it. We want more than— more of this. We're willing to— I had a couple of clients say, I'll pay more if we can do more of this. Yeah, but the connection of other like-minded people on the same journey, experiencing the same problems, being able to collaborate and share ideas. Now, of course, these weren't all— as a matter of fact, there wasn't a podcaster in the Well, there might have been one that had a podcast, but that wasn't their business. They weren't in the same businesses necessarily. There were 3 or 4 different types of businesses represented. But that cross-pollination of ideas between— like, I've always found that fascinating of like, well, what are you doing in the— I always went back to the physicians. How does a physician run their office as a professional? Can we learn something from them to take and apply in ours? And I think that cross-industry pollination is really powerful. So yeah, I love that you're doing that because I see a huge need in the space for that.

Yeah. And it's funny that you say that because that was the topic of a podcast episode I did on Breaking Biz Dev, one of the shows that I co-host is, you know, what do different industries do well in sales and marketing? And it's like the accounting industry is a lot more digitally mature than the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. And so, but that industry has its own strengths compared to the accounting industry. And agencies are really great at account management and wealth management firms are really great at, um, leveraging centers of influence. And so like, I think like within other professional services industries, but like also like outside of that too, like what can you learn outside of your industry and like B2C or like tech and robotics, you know? Um, yeah, I love the breaking out of your echo chamber and just being open to new ideas.

Yeah, I was part of a group of accountants for probably 15 years, and it was good until it wasn't. And I don't think the group changed. As a matter of fact, I came back 5 years after leaving it, and it was fascinating to me sitting around the table listening to them. They were having the exact same conversations they were 5 years ago, and I'm like, "Guys, you've got—" I mean, and so I think the key there— and what we talked about is making sure you have the right people at the table, the right people in the group, because we all are at different points. We all have different questions we're asking. And if you're not at a table of peers that are asking the same questions, it's not real productive. But to the point of— you said echo chamber. Yeah, absolutely. You, you, you can't be locked into that either. If, if everybody's still having the same conversations and it's like, why haven't you solved this yet? Like, it's not— you're just talking to yourselves.

And it takes going out and engagement. I think that I love the visual of like those concentric circles where it's like you got to break through the— your comfort zone and go through like the fear zone to get into the growth zone, right? Or the learning zone to get to the growth zone. And like there's this progression that goes through, and stepping outside of what feels comfortable for you is how you grow. And you can't do that if you're, you know, stuck within an echo chamber.

One of the best books I read, uh, my business coach recommended, um, I can't remember the author's name, but the book was titled The Big Leap. And he's a doctor of psychology at Stanford, and he's written several books. But he talks about— see, there I went again, giving all the context that I didn't need. Do you see what I did there? Okay, I'll stop. Anyway, the idea with The Big Leap is how we're hardwired. Our brains are hardwired to crave predictability. And so anytime we go beyond that, our brains actively resist us. And you say— use the word fear. Yes, sometimes it manifests itself as fear. Sometimes if it's bad enough, it'll actually manifest in physical symptoms, like you will physically feel sick. You will, you know, like, uh, and, and it's because you're afraid to go to that next level of what is not known. Um, and, and so just acknowledging the fact that Yes, it's going to feel uncomfortable and it's supposed to because it's unknown to you. But once you've passed that barrier, you're comfortable with it. You no longer have that fear because it's known.

Yep. It's the index of dread, right? And I think this— I don't know where I picked this up from, but it's like you think about— you think about doing something right and you dread doing it. And let's say that like you dread it so much and you keep putting it off and keep putting it off, but then you actually get around to doing it. And then afterwards you realize like, wow, that wasn't really as bad as I thought it was.

No, absolutely. That— you've just discussed my battle every day when I am talking to myself about going to the gym. Like, I mean, it's, it's the exact same conversation. And I've been, I've been working out for 40 years. I mean, it's not like Nothing I know. But yeah, I find my, my experience is we tend to fixate and worry and have anxiety about the things that we really can't control and ignore the things that we can control.

That's right. Yep. And a lot of that boils down to— I like to call it your inner APE, your attitude, your preparation, and your effort. Right? So those are things that are within your control, that you, uh, that you can control. And, you know, maybe that's just because I listen to too many sports podcasts and coach talk, but, um, yeah. So you focus on— yeah, focus on what you can control, and the things that you can't control, you know, don't worry so much about.

Yeah, because they're going to happen, and by definition you can't do anything about it.

And how are you going to respond to it, right? I mean, you could respond positively with good energy, or you could let it crush you. Uh, that's exactly right, John.

Uh, how do people find out more about Red Cedar Marketing if they want to work with you?

Yeah, they can go to redcedarmarketing.com. Um, I'm very active on LinkedIn. That's probably the best social platform to connect with me. Um, if you have a question about podcasting, shoot me a message. I'm happy to strike up a conversation.

Well, thank you very much. We'll have those links in the show notes. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, hit that little message button, shoot us a message and tell us what you'd like to hear. And I'll get rid of John. Until next time, ta-ta for now.